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All Religions Cheat By Indoctrinating Youth.

jat93
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6/22/2012 2:46:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
About 4000 years ago, Yahweh regretted his creation and decided to kill everybody in the world, including doubtlessly innocent children, with the exception of something like 7 people to repopulate the planet. Yahweh decided that these were not enough beings to kill, so he decided to kill all animals aside from 2 of every non-clean animal, and 14 of every clean animal. Yahweh then proceeded to destroy the planet in 40 days and 40 nights. The protagonist of this story, Noah, was slightly over the age of 600 at this point.

This is the world that resulted, only a few thousand years later - 6 billion ethnically, culturally, and geographically different people, 100s of billions of different species of animals and plants, and no records of such an event ever occurring.

We have a name for ancient, grandiose, scientifically impossible claims about humanity that would leave behind an abundance of evidence if they were true, but for which no solid evidence has ever been found. It's called mythology. The Greeks had it, the Norse had it, the Egyptians had it, and the Jews had it. They are all equally as grandiose and scientifically impossible.So why do so many people believe the Jewish mythology today? Because of the indoctrination of youth.

Young children tend to believe what they are told by trusted and beloved parents and teachers and spiritual leaders without much questioning. They are too young to be taught and to understand claims about the ultimate truth of the universe and the meaning of life in a significant manner. And if a parent or teacher or spiritual leader tells a young, impressionable child that all those who reject their faith go to hell and burn for eternity - an idea that has tormented the minds of literally countless children - what are the odds that the young children will consider the claims in a reasonable light? They wouldn't be able to truly reason with the claims even if they weren't being emotionally tormented with the possibility of suffering painfully in hell forever.

Does anyone say that their young child is a Marxist child, or a Democratic child? Of course not - everyone knows that young children can't grasp complicated political/economic issues and can therefore not choose a party/ideology to stand with or against. But when you say that a baby or a child is Christian, this is for some reason socially acceptable. As Richard Dawkins says, "there is no such thing as a Christian child - only a child of Christian parents."

If a parent raised their child from birth to support any given belief, if both parents adhered to that belief, if most of their friends and acquaintances adhered to that belief, if once a week they were taken a center which adhered to that belief, with which they had passionate and emotional experiences, and lastly - if they were told that they'd go to hell forever if they didn't accept that belief... Well, the overwhelming odds are that the child would grow up accepting that belief as true, no matter how patently ridiculous or irrational it is.

I believe religion uses compulsory and systematic indoctrination - in short, taking advantage of the things I listed in the paragraph above - to their advantage. Notice that no other belief or ideology puts so much focus on telling children what to believe (or else!) from such a young age. It's as if religions are saying, "We know that we would not be able to compete in the marketplace of ideas if we simply let children wait until they were capable of reasoning until they made a decision, so we'll start earlier and invest more than any other belief or ideology or science does, so that the kids are too emotionally attached to ever leave." In this way, religion's most fundamental component, the thing that keeps it alive, is cheating.

I believe that all religions would die out in a generation or two if they did not cheat and make their children emotionally biased towards their religion and eager to confirm it as true. If all religious people simply waited until their children were capable of reasoning in order to tell them about these grandiose, scientifically impossible claims about the universe, would any child really believe them? Who would believe that once upon a time some invisible, perfect being in the sky told a 600 year old man to build a giant boat for his family and some animals, so that the being could destroy all other life the world in a giant 40 day flood, for which there is absolutely no concrete scientific evidence today? Doubtful.

No rational, unbiased, scientifically literate person could possibly believe that the story of Noah and the flood actually occurred. It contradicts everything we know about science, humanity, and the universe left and right. The vast majority of people who believe this story is true, believe it because of emotional biases instilled within them by their beloved parents, (possibly) teachers, and spiritual leaders from a young age. Without these emotional biases, almost nobody would believe this story really happened.
jat93
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6/22/2012 2:54:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 2:46:44 PM, jat93 wrote:

Who would believe that once upon a time some invisible, perfect being in the sky told a 600 year old man to build a giant boat for his family and some animals, so that the being could destroy all other life the world in a giant 40 day flood, for which there is absolutely no concrete scientific evidence today? Doubtful.

Just to avoid confusion - when I was writing I thought for some reason that I'd written "would anyone believe" instead of "who would believe," hence the "doubtful" at the end. Just clarifying.
Gileandos
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6/22/2012 3:23:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In scholastic circles without language bias and using logic as a guidepost such a process is called 'education'.

As to indoctrination who perfected it more than the atheist states?

They stole children from religious people and indoctrinated them with 'scientific atheism'.
http://www.thedivineconspiracy.org...
Here is an entire book on the indoctrination process.

The question really at issue is language bias you put upon religion. In addition, what are you proposing? that the state take away children? Who would then educate them? People who have zero vested interest in the individual's well being? People who have no personal love or attachment for the children?

Do you believe the state can do a better job giving what is best for the children than loving and adoring parents?

Really do you believe people who adoringly love their children are so stupid they are destroying them with religion? Parents only choose what is best for their children and future generations.

Your indoctrination complaints are Absurd!

This is compounded by the proof of what state atheism will do to their children. 20 million dead in Russia by direct murder. A population of 350 million in the 1950's is now a mere 149 million and dropping.

America where children or so indoctrinated *sarcasm*... Greatest achievements the world has ever known, in the 1950's when the war against atheism started, America a mere 150 million population is now 350 million and growing.

You have nothing to support this absurd idea of 'indoctrination' of religious children as inherently bad.
Clash
Posts: 220
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6/22/2012 3:33:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 2:46:44 PM, jat93 wrote:
About 4000 years ago, Yahweh regretted his creation and decided to kill everybody in the world, including doubtlessly innocent children, with the exception of something like 7 people to repopulate the planet. Yahweh decided that these were not enough beings to kill, so he decided to kill all animals aside from 2 of every non-clean animal, and 14 of every clean animal. Yahweh then proceeded to destroy the planet in 40 days and 40 nights. The protagonist of this story, Noah, was slightly over the age of 600 at this point.

This is the world that resulted, only a few thousand years later - 6 billion ethnically, culturally, and geographically different people, 100s of billions of different species of animals and plants, and no records of such an event ever occurring.

We have a name for ancient, grandiose, scientifically impossible claims about humanity that would leave behind an abundance of evidence if they were true, but for which no solid evidence has ever been found. It's called mythology. The Greeks had it, the Norse had it, the Egyptians had it, and the Jews had it. They are all equally as grandiose and scientifically impossible.So why do so many people believe the Jewish mythology today? Because of the indoctrination of youth.

Young children tend to believe what they are told by trusted and beloved parents and teachers and spiritual leaders without much questioning. They are too young to be taught and to understand claims about the ultimate truth of the universe and the meaning of life in a significant manner. And if a parent or teacher or spiritual leader tells a young, impressionable child that all those who reject their faith go to hell and burn for eternity - an idea that has tormented the minds of literally countless children - what are the odds that the young children will consider the claims in a reasonable light? They wouldn't be able to truly reason with the claims even if they weren't being emotionally tormented with the possibility of suffering painfully in hell forever.

Does anyone say that their young child is a Marxist child, or a Democratic child? Of course not - everyone knows that young children can't grasp complicated political/economic issues and can therefore not choose a party/ideology to stand with or against. But when you say that a baby or a child is Christian, this is for some reason socially acceptable. As Richard Dawkins says, "there is no such thing as a Christian child - only a child of Christian parents."

If a parent raised their child from birth to support any given belief, if both parents adhered to that belief, if most of their friends and acquaintances adhered to that belief, if once a week they were taken a center which adhered to that belief, with which they had passionate and emotional experiences, and lastly - if they were told that they'd go to hell forever if they didn't accept that belief... Well, the overwhelming odds are that the child would grow up accepting that belief as true, no matter how patently ridiculous or irrational it is.

I believe religion uses compulsory and systematic indoctrination - in short, taking advantage of the things I listed in the paragraph above - to their advantage. Notice that no other belief or ideology puts so much focus on telling children what to believe (or else!) from such a young age. It's as if religions are saying, "We know that we would not be able to compete in the marketplace of ideas if we simply let children wait until they were capable of reasoning until they made a decision, so we'll start earlier and invest more than any other belief or ideology or science does, so that the kids are too emotionally attached to ever leave." In this way, religion's most fundamental component, the thing that keeps it alive, is cheating.

I believe that all religions would die out in a generation or two if they did not cheat and make their children emotionally biased towards their religion and eager to confirm it as true. If all religious people simply waited until their children were capable of reasoning in order to tell them about these grandiose, scientifically impossible claims about the universe, would any child really believe them? Who would believe that once upon a time some invisible, perfect being in the sky told a 600 year old man to build a giant boat for his family and some animals, so that the being could destroy all other life the world in a giant 40 day flood, for which there is absolutely no concrete scientific evidence today? Doubtful.

No rational, unbiased, scientifically literate person could possibly believe that the story of Noah and the flood actually occurred. It contradicts everything we know about science, humanity, and the universe left and right. The vast majority of people who believe this story is true, believe it because of emotional biases instilled within them by their beloved parents, (possibly) teachers, and spiritual leaders from a young age. Without these emotional biases, almost nobody would believe this story really happened.

http://reshade.com...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?
RoyLatham
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6/22/2012 3:40:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 2:46:44 PM, jat93 wrote:
Does anyone say that their young child is a Marxist child, or a Democratic child? Of course not - everyone knows that young children can't grasp complicated political/economic issues and can therefore not choose a party/ideology to stand with or against. But when you say that a baby or a child is Christian, this is for some reason socially acceptable. As Richard Dawkins says, "there is no such thing as a Christian child - only a child of Christian parents."

I don't think that speaks to the nature of religion, it's just a way we reference beliefs. Marxist parents are every bit as likely to indoctrinate their children as Christian parents. I think parents are obligated to teach their children whatever it is they think is right, especially fundamental ideas of right and wrong. It's too late for an 18-year-old to just start thinking about right from wrong.

If a parent raised their child from birth to support any given belief, if both parents adhered to that belief, if most of their friends and acquaintances adhered to that belief, if once a week they were taken a center which adhered to that belief, with which they had passionate and emotional experiences, and lastly - if they were told that they'd go to hell forever if they didn't accept that belief... Well, the overwhelming odds are that the child would grow up accepting that belief as true, no matter how patently ridiculous or irrational it is.

Actually the "going to hell forever" thing doesn't seem to be very effective in practice. There are lots of Christians in Federal penitentiarys. In a free society, parental influence is limited. That's not always good.

I believe religion uses compulsory and systematic indoctrination - in short, taking advantage of the things I listed in the paragraph above - to their advantage. Notice that no other belief or ideology puts so much focus on telling children what to believe (or else!) from such a young age.

I don't believe that's true at all. School textbooks are carefully scrutinized for adherence to political correctness. There are about 400 rules. Blacks cannot be depicted as athletes or Asians as studious. Sugary desserts cannot be mentioned. Political correctness is as strict as fundamentalist religion; in fact you are a whole lot more likely to get cookies from fundamentalists.

No rational, unbiased, scientifically literate person could possibly believe that the story of Noah and the flood actually occurred. It contradicts everything we know about science, humanity, and the universe left and right.

It's believable because it's in the distant past, so it's not contradicted by contemporary experience. What's really amazing is believing in socialism, which is continually observed to fail in the modern world.
Gileandos
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6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.
GeoLaureate8
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6/22/2012 7:00:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 3:40:18 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I don't think that speaks to the nature of religion, it's just a way we reference beliefs. Marxist parents are every bit as likely to indoctrinate their children as Christian parents.

False. Many children pray, know about Hell, know about Jesus, God, all the Bible stories, but most children will not give two craps about Marxist economic theory and opinions on labor even if the parents had the hammer and sickle flag all over the house.

It's much easier and more likely that a child will be indoctrinated religiously than they are to be indoctrinated into a certain form of economic thought.

I think parents are obligated to teach their children whatever it is they think is right, especially fundamental ideas of right and wrong. It's too late for an 18-year-old to just start thinking about right from wrong.

I think parents are obligated to tell their children fact, and when it comes to unprovable metaphysics, tell the child about critical thinking and independent thought.

It isn't about what beliefs they are taught so much as it is the process of thought that they are taught.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
WriterDave
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6/22/2012 7:09:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought.

AHHHHHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! *wipes tear*

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

Would you care to debate the scientific validity of those "studies?"
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

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Stephen_Hawkins
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6/22/2012 7:25:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

False consciousness much?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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royalpaladin
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6/22/2012 9:12:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

There's confounding: private schooling and homeschooling is better than public schooling as a whole. Please compare religious homeschooling with secular homeschooling and religious private schooling with secular private schooling to eliminate this factor.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/22/2012 9:17:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 9:12:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

There's confounding: private schooling and homeschooling are better than public schooling as a whole. Please compare religious homeschooling with secular homeschooling and religious private schooling with secular private schooling to eliminate this factor.

Fixed
Gileandos
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6/22/2012 9:20:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 9:12:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

There's confounding: private schooling and homeschooling is better than public schooling as a whole. Please compare religious homeschooling with secular homeschooling and religious private schooling with secular private schooling to eliminate this factor.

If Religion was the source of reducing critical thinking then homeschool, 90% religious would have the opposite effect. As would religious schools. In other words, you are wrong to the power of obvious.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/22/2012 9:25:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 9:20:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:12:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

There's confounding: private schooling and homeschooling is better than public schooling as a whole. Please compare religious homeschooling with secular homeschooling and religious private schooling with secular private schooling to eliminate this factor.

If Religion was the source of reducing critical thinking then homeschool, 90% religious would have the opposite effect. As would religious schools. In other words, you are wrong to the power of obvious.

False. Religious schools do not only teach about religion; they teach other subjects that are taught in secular private institutions. These skills promote their education to higher degrees than are possible in public institutions. Religion is detrimental insofar as it erodes some of the critical thinking skills they gain.
Gileandos
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6/22/2012 9:45:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 9:25:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:20:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:12:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

There's confounding: private schooling and homeschooling is better than public schooling as a whole. Please compare religious homeschooling with secular homeschooling and religious private schooling with secular private schooling to eliminate this factor.

If Religion was the source of reducing critical thinking then homeschool, 90% religious would have the opposite effect. As would religious schools. In other words, you are wrong to the power of obvious.

False. Religious schools do not only teach about religion; they teach other subjects that are taught in secular private institutions. These skills promote their education to higher degrees than are possible in public institutions. Religion is detrimental insofar as it erodes some of the critical thinking skills they gain.

Not hard.

1: Religious schools and home-schools over 90% contain children taught by schools and parents religious concepts.
2: If such religious concepts eroded the children's critical thinking skills, the children's education would suffer and they would be inept.
3: Secular viewpoints narrow critical thinking by eliminating abstract thinking, theological methodology and metaphysics rather than including all critical thought.
4: If religious circles display superior grades and scores then secular viewpoints cause erosion of critical thought due to its limiting nature.
5: Education within predominate religious circles excels 30-40% higher than secular education.

Conclusion, religion causes superior critical thinking due to a non-limited thinking process and scores reflect increased abilities. Secular thinking, due to limited critical thinking processes resulting in an erosion of thought.
Ahmed.M
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6/22/2012 9:48:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 2:46:44 PM, jat93 wrote:

Young children tend to believe what they are told by trusted and beloved parents and teachers and spiritual leaders without much questioning. They are too young to be taught and to understand claims about the ultimate truth of the universe and the meaning of life in a significant manner. And if a parent or teacher or spiritual leader tells a young, impressionable child that all those who reject their faith go to hell and burn for eternity - an idea that has tormented the minds of literally countless children - what are the odds that the young children will consider the claims in a reasonable light? They wouldn't be able to truly reason with the claims even if they weren't being emotionally tormented with the possibility of suffering painfully in hell forever.

You say that most youth are indoctrinated into believing what they believe. I agree with you, these are the facts of all children. Parents have an extremely heavy influence on the formation of a child's beliefs and ideas. A child will almost always follow what their parents believe and the parent will one way or another guide the child into their way of thinking.

Does anyone say that their young child is a Marxist child, or a Democratic child? Of course not - everyone knows that young children can't grasp complicated political/economic issues and can therefore not choose a party/ideology to stand with or against. But when you say that a baby or a child is Christian, this is for some reason socially acceptable. As Richard Dawkins says, "there is no such thing as a Christian child - only a child of Christian parents."

This is where your false. While it is true that you will not hear children proclaiming to be of particular political ideologies, those values have been indoctrinated into them at some point or another.

--> It is impossible for a parent not to heavily influence a child's thinking in one way or another, a parent will always guide and influence a child into their way of thinking this is inevitable

--> You say that a child wouldn't be able to reason, etc etc. You are simply holding to one method of teaching a child a religion. While it is true commonly that it is "this is what happened, believe it" a parent can raise child into believing a religion while supporting it with good reasoning, if the religion can be understood rationally.

--> Atheist parents while I would admit not usually being as interested in making a child believe certain things, will influence a child to not believe. They will indoctrinate a child in the you conceive of for religions especially if they are strong atheists

If a parent raised their child from birth to support any given belief, if both parents adhered to that belief, if most of their friends and acquaintances adhered to that belief, if once a week they were taken a center which adhered to that belief, with which they had passionate and emotional experiences, and lastly - if they were told that they'd go to hell forever if they didn't accept that belief... Well, the overwhelming odds are that the child would grow up accepting that belief as true, no matter how patently ridiculous or irrational it is.

I believe religion uses compulsory and systematic indoctrination - in short, taking advantage of the things I listed in the paragraph above - to their advantage. Notice that no other belief or ideology puts so much focus on telling children what to believe (or else!) from such a young age. It's as if religions are saying, "We know that we would not be able to compete in the marketplace of ideas if we simply let children wait until they were capable of reasoning until they made a decision, so we'll start earlier and invest more than any other belief or ideology or science does, so that the kids are too emotionally attached to ever leave." In this way, religion's most fundamental component, the thing that keeps it alive, is cheating.

I believe that all religions would die out in a generation or two if they did not cheat and make their children emotionally biased towards their religion and eager to confirm it as true. If all religious people simply waited until their children were capable of reasoning in order to tell them about these grandiose, scientifically impossible claims about the universe, would any child really believe them? Who would believe that once upon a time some invisible, perfect being in the sky told a 600 year old man to build a giant boat for his family and some animals, so that the being could destroy all other life the world in a giant 40 day flood, for which there is absolutely no concrete scientific evidence today? Doubtful.

No rational, unbiased, scientifically literate person could possibly believe that the story of Noah and the flood actually occurred. It contradicts everything we know about science, humanity, and the universe left and right. The vast majority of people who believe this story is true, believe it because of emotional biases instilled within them by their beloved parents, (possibly) teachers, and spiritual leaders from a young age. Without these emotional biases, almost nobody would believe this story really happened.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/22/2012 9:55:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 9:45:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:25:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:20:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:12:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

There's confounding: private schooling and homeschooling is better than public schooling as a whole. Please compare religious homeschooling with secular homeschooling and religious private schooling with secular private schooling to eliminate this factor.

If Religion was the source of reducing critical thinking then homeschool, 90% religious would have the opposite effect. As would religious schools. In other words, you are wrong to the power of obvious.

False. Religious schools do not only teach about religion; they teach other subjects that are taught in secular private institutions. These skills promote their education to higher degrees than are possible in public institutions. Religion is detrimental insofar as it erodes some of the critical thinking skills they gain.

Not hard.

1: Religious schools and home-schools over 90% contain children taught by schools and parents religious concepts.
2: If such religious concepts eroded the children's critical thinking skills, the children's education would suffer and they would be inept.
3: Secular viewpoints narrow critical thinking by eliminating abstract thinking, theological methodology and metaphysics rather than including all critical thought.
4: If religious circles display superior grades and scores then secular viewpoints cause erosion of critical thought due to its limiting nature.
5: Education within predominate religious circles excels 30-40% higher than secular education.


Conclusion, religion causes superior critical thinking due to a non-limited thinking process and scores reflect increased abilities. Secular thinking, due to limited critical thinking processes resulting in an erosion of thought.

I don't feel like doing a line-by line right now. Your entire case hinges on the assumption that abstract thinking depends on teaching about God, which isn't the case. Abstract thinking can be taught through logic (vis a vis computer science and discrete math), higher level math (beyond Calculus II), and even higher level history and philosophy courses (all of which I took in high school either through classes or through extracurricular activities like debate). Please provide the sociological data that demonstrates that secular institutions are worse than their religious counterparts (meaning compare secular private to religious private, secular homeschooling to religious homeschooling, etc.)

I know that this isn't evidence, but in my district, the prominent religious institution failed miserably in qualifying debaters for even the State Tournament, while the secular institutions were particularly adept at qualifying debaters for both States and Nationals.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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6/22/2012 10:17:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 9:55:42 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:45:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:25:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:20:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:12:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

There's confounding: private schooling and homeschooling is better than public schooling as a whole. Please compare religious homeschooling with secular homeschooling and religious private schooling with secular private schooling to eliminate this factor.

If Religion was the source of reducing critical thinking then homeschool, 90% religious would have the opposite effect. As would religious schools. In other words, you are wrong to the power of obvious.

False. Religious schools do not only teach about religion; they teach other subjects that are taught in secular private institutions. These skills promote their education to higher degrees than are possible in public institutions. Religion is detrimental insofar as it erodes some of the critical thinking skills they gain.

Not hard.

1: Religious schools and home-schools over 90% contain children taught by schools and parents religious concepts.
2: If such religious concepts eroded the children's critical thinking skills, the children's education would suffer and they would be inept.
3: Secular viewpoints narrow critical thinking by eliminating abstract thinking, theological methodology and metaphysics rather than including all critical thought.
4: If religious circles display superior grades and scores then secular viewpoints cause erosion of critical thought due to its limiting nature.
5: Education within predominate religious circles excels 30-40% higher than secular education.


Conclusion, religion causes superior critical thinking due to a non-limited thinking process and scores reflect increased abilities. Secular thinking, due to limited critical thinking processes resulting in an erosion of thought.

I don't feel like doing a line-by line right now. Your entire case hinges on the assumption that abstract thinking depends on teaching about God, which isn't the case. Abstract thinking can be taught through logic (vis a vis computer science and discrete math), higher level math (beyond Calculus II), and even higher level history and philosophy courses (all of which I took in high school either through classes or through extracurricular activities like debate). Please provide the sociological data that demonstrates that secular institutions are worse than their religious counterparts (meaning compare secular private to religious private, secular homeschooling to religious homeschooling, etc.)

I know that this isn't evidence, but in my district, the prominent religious institution failed miserably in qualifying debaters for even the State Tournament, while the secular institutions were particularly adept at qualifying debaters for both States and Nationals.

No it does not hinge on the teaching of religious thinking encompasses 'more'. That is fact.
It hinges on the numbers resulting from it. The religious circles are hands down producing superior students than the secular system and we have not even looked at historical numbers across the board.
If your statement was correct, religious institutions and families would be destroying their children's education.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/23/2012 9:25:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 2:46:44 PM, jat93 wrote:
About 4000 years ago, Yahweh regretted his creation and decided to kill everybody in the world, including doubtlessly innocent children, with the exception of something like 7 people to repopulate the planet. Yahweh decided that these were not enough beings to kill, so he decided to kill all animals aside from 2 of every non-clean animal, and 14 of every clean animal. Yahweh then proceeded to destroy the planet in 40 days and 40 nights. The protagonist of this story, Noah, was slightly over the age of 600 at this point.

This is the world that resulted, only a few thousand years later - 6 billion ethnically, culturally, and geographically different people, 100s of billions of different species of animals and plants, and no records of such an event ever occurring.

We have a name for ancient, grandiose, scientifically impossible claims about humanity that would leave behind an abundance of evidence if they were true, but for which no solid evidence has ever been found. It's called mythology. The Greeks had it, the Norse had it, the Egyptians had it, and the Jews had it. They are all equally as grandiose and scientifically impossible.So why do so many people believe the Jewish mythology today? Because of the indoctrination of youth.

Young children tend to believe what they are told by trusted and beloved parents and teachers and spiritual leaders without much questioning. They are too young to be taught and to understand claims about the ultimate truth of the universe and the meaning of life in a significant manner. And if a parent or teacher or spiritual leader tells a young, impressionable child that all those who reject their faith go to hell and burn for eternity - an idea that has tormented the minds of literally countless children - what are the odds that the young children will consider the claims in a reasonable light? They wouldn't be able to truly reason with the claims even if they weren't being emotionally tormented with the possibility of suffering painfully in hell forever.

Does anyone say that their young child is a Marxist child, or a Democratic child? Of course not - everyone knows that young children can't grasp complicated political/economic issues and can therefore not choose a party/ideology to stand with or against. But when you say that a baby or a child is Christian, this is for some reason socially acceptable. As Richard Dawkins says, "there is no such thing as a Christian child - only a child of Christian parents."

If a parent raised their child from birth to support any given belief, if both parents adhered to that belief, if most of their friends and acquaintances adhered to that belief, if once a week they were taken a center which adhered to that belief, with which they had passionate and emotional experiences, and lastly - if they were told that they'd go to hell forever if they didn't accept that belief... Well, the overwhelming odds are that the child would grow up accepting that belief as true, no matter how patently ridiculous or irrational it is.

I believe religion uses compulsory and systematic indoctrination - in short, taking advantage of the things I listed in the paragraph above - to their advantage. Notice that no other belief or ideology puts so much focus on telling children what to believe (or else!) from such a young age. It's as if religions are saying, "We know that we would not be able to compete in the marketplace of ideas if we simply let children wait until they were capable of reasoning until they made a decision, so we'll start earlier and invest more than any other belief or ideology or science does, so that the kids are too emotionally attached to ever leave." In this way, religion's most fundamental component, the thing that keeps it alive, is cheating.

I believe that all religions would die out in a generation or two if they did not cheat and make their children emotionally biased towards their religion and eager to confirm it as true. If all religious people simply waited until their children were capable of reasoning in order to tell them about these grandiose, scientifically impossible claims about the universe, would any child really believe them? Who would believe that once upon a time some invisible, perfect being in the sky told a 600 year old man to build a giant boat for his family and some animals, so that the being could destroy all other life the world in a giant 40 day flood, for which there is absolutely no concrete scientific evidence today? Doubtful.

No rational, unbiased, scientifically literate person could possibly believe that the story of Noah and the flood actually occurred. It contradicts everything we know about science, humanity, and the universe left and right. The vast majority of people who believe this story is true, believe it because of emotional biases instilled within them by their beloved parents, (possibly) teachers, and spiritual leaders from a young age. Without these emotional biases, almost nobody would believe this story really happened.

Just because I raised my kids differently than you would raise yours doesn't mean that I'm "cheating". It's called parental rights.

I could very easily claim that kids are indoctrinated to believe that God doesn't exist, which also can't be proven, in school. Why should people who believe something that can't be proven, have more of a right to affect the beliefs of my child than me??
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/23/2012 9:29:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 10:17:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:55:42 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:45:30 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:25:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:20:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 9:12:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

There's confounding: private schooling and homeschooling is better than public schooling as a whole. Please compare religious homeschooling with secular homeschooling and religious private schooling with secular private schooling to eliminate this factor.

If Religion was the source of reducing critical thinking then homeschool, 90% religious would have the opposite effect. As would religious schools. In other words, you are wrong to the power of obvious.

False. Religious schools do not only teach about religion; they teach other subjects that are taught in secular private institutions. These skills promote their education to higher degrees than are possible in public institutions. Religion is detrimental insofar as it erodes some of the critical thinking skills they gain.

Not hard.

1: Religious schools and home-schools over 90% contain children taught by schools and parents religious concepts.
2: If such religious concepts eroded the children's critical thinking skills, the children's education would suffer and they would be inept.
3: Secular viewpoints narrow critical thinking by eliminating abstract thinking, theological methodology and metaphysics rather than including all critical thought.
4: If religious circles display superior grades and scores then secular viewpoints cause erosion of critical thought due to its limiting nature.
5: Education within predominate religious circles excels 30-40% higher than secular education.


Conclusion, religion causes superior critical thinking due to a non-limited thinking process and scores reflect increased abilities. Secular thinking, due to limited critical thinking processes resulting in an erosion of thought.

I don't feel like doing a line-by line right now. Your entire case hinges on the assumption that abstract thinking depends on teaching about God, which isn't the case. Abstract thinking can be taught through logic (vis a vis computer science and discrete math), higher level math (beyond Calculus II), and even higher level history and philosophy courses (all of which I took in high school either through classes or through extracurricular activities like debate). Please provide the sociological data that demonstrates that secular institutions are worse than their religious counterparts (meaning compare secular private to religious private, secular homeschooling to religious homeschooling, etc.)

I know that this isn't evidence, but in my district, the prominent religious institution failed miserably in qualifying debaters for even the State Tournament, while the secular institutions were particularly adept at qualifying debaters for both States and Nationals.

No it does not hinge on the teaching of religious thinking encompasses 'more'. That is fact.
It hinges on the numbers resulting from it. The religious circles are hands down producing superior students than the secular system and we have not even looked at historical numbers across the board.
If your statement was correct, religious institutions and families would be destroying their children's education.

No, because the secular education provides a buffer. This is why secular private institutions are better than religious private institutions.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/23/2012 9:32:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 9:25:32 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/22/2012 2:46:44 PM, jat93 wrote:
About 4000 years ago, Yahweh regretted his creation and decided to kill everybody in the world, including doubtlessly innocent children, with the exception of something like 7 people to repopulate the planet. Yahweh decided that these were not enough beings to kill, so he decided to kill all animals aside from 2 of every non-clean animal, and 14 of every clean animal. Yahweh then proceeded to destroy the planet in 40 days and 40 nights. The protagonist of this story, Noah, was slightly over the age of 600 at this point.

This is the world that resulted, only a few thousand years later - 6 billion ethnically, culturally, and geographically different people, 100s of billions of different species of animals and plants, and no records of such an event ever occurring.

We have a name for ancient, grandiose, scientifically impossible claims about humanity that would leave behind an abundance of evidence if they were true, but for which no solid evidence has ever been found. It's called mythology. The Greeks had it, the Norse had it, the Egyptians had it, and the Jews had it. They are all equally as grandiose and scientifically impossible.So why do so many people believe the Jewish mythology today? Because of the indoctrination of youth.

Young children tend to believe what they are told by trusted and beloved parents and teachers and spiritual leaders without much questioning. They are too young to be taught and to understand claims about the ultimate truth of the universe and the meaning of life in a significant manner. And if a parent or teacher or spiritual leader tells a young, impressionable child that all those who reject their faith go to hell and burn for eternity - an idea that has tormented the minds of literally countless children - what are the odds that the young children will consider the claims in a reasonable light? They wouldn't be able to truly reason with the claims even if they weren't being emotionally tormented with the possibility of suffering painfully in hell forever.

Does anyone say that their young child is a Marxist child, or a Democratic child? Of course not - everyone knows that young children can't grasp complicated political/economic issues and can therefore not choose a party/ideology to stand with or against. But when you say that a baby or a child is Christian, this is for some reason socially acceptable. As Richard Dawkins says, "there is no such thing as a Christian child - only a child of Christian parents."

If a parent raised their child from birth to support any given belief, if both parents adhered to that belief, if most of their friends and acquaintances adhered to that belief, if once a week they were taken a center which adhered to that belief, with which they had passionate and emotional experiences, and lastly - if they were told that they'd go to hell forever if they didn't accept that belief... Well, the overwhelming odds are that the child would grow up accepting that belief as true, no matter how patently ridiculous or irrational it is.

I believe religion uses compulsory and systematic indoctrination - in short, taking advantage of the things I listed in the paragraph above - to their advantage. Notice that no other belief or ideology puts so much focus on telling children what to believe (or else!) from such a young age. It's as if religions are saying, "We know that we would not be able to compete in the marketplace of ideas if we simply let children wait until they were capable of reasoning until they made a decision, so we'll start earlier and invest more than any other belief or ideology or science does, so that the kids are too emotionally attached to ever leave." In this way, religion's most fundamental component, the thing that keeps it alive, is cheating.

I believe that all religions would die out in a generation or two if they did not cheat and make their children emotionally biased towards their religion and eager to confirm it as true. If all religious people simply waited until their children were capable of reasoning in order to tell them about these grandiose, scientifically impossible claims about the universe, would any child really believe them? Who would believe that once upon a time some invisible, perfect being in the sky told a 600 year old man to build a giant boat for his family and some animals, so that the being could destroy all other life the world in a giant 40 day flood, for which there is absolutely no concrete scientific evidence today? Doubtful.

No rational, unbiased, scientifically literate person could possibly believe that the story of Noah and the flood actually occurred. It contradicts everything we know about science, humanity, and the universe left and right. The vast majority of people who believe this story is true, believe it because of emotional biases instilled within them by their beloved parents, (possibly) teachers, and spiritual leaders from a young age. Without these emotional biases, almost nobody would believe this story really happened.

Just because I raised my kids differently than you would raise yours doesn't mean that I'm "cheating". It's called parental rights.

It's cheating in the sense that you are not permitting them to explore the ideas for themselves. There is no level playing field for discussion of ideas because people are forced to believe things.
I could very easily claim that kids are indoctrinated to believe that God doesn't exist, which also can't be proven, in school.
That's not true at all. My public school and private school were filled with religious people and they often referred to gambling, sex, etc. as sinful. There is no Atheist indoctrination anywhere. You are not part of an oppressed majority.
Why should people who believe something that can't be proven, have more of a right to affect the beliefs of my child than me??

Our point is that nobody has the right to affect the beliefs of anybody. Let people become rational enough to evaluate the ideas and then make the choice for themselves.
royalpaladin
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6/23/2012 9:33:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Honestly, indoctrination is bad for religion anyways. It just promotes carrying out meaningless, mindless rituals, and then people aren't really practitioners of that faith except in name only.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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6/23/2012 9:53:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 6:46:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/22/2012 3:39:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Considering that it demolishes the critical thinking skills of children, I think it's a good idea to stop indoctrination. If religion is so powerful, it should be able to defeat other ideas when children are able to rationally consider it, right? Don't indoctrinate them before hand; present them with the ideas when they become old enough to choose.

After all, Gileandos, it worked for you, right?

Religion demolishes critical thinking skills? Theology is the pinnacle of enlightened thought. Your claim is patently untrue.

http://www.hslda.org...

The secular state system of training 'critical thinking' fails in appalling fashion.
Homeschooling 90%+ religious viewpoint score 80-90% against the secular national average of 50%.

So nasty homeschoolers show your claims to be appallingly wrong by 40%. HOw about those nasty formal Christian schools 'getting rid of the critical thinking of the children'?

At each grade assessment all of the children score 20-30% above the secular national average.

http://www.discoverchristianschools.com...

Given your own responses, I have the belief that atheism and secularism eliminate critical thinking skills. The numbers back me up, that means I have justification for my belief... you not so much.

The Fool: any ideology including religion, destroys critical thinking skills.
because they don't make sense in the first place. and Theologin logic, has nothing to do with logicians logic.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/23/2012 10:07:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 9:32:23 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/23/2012 9:25:32 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/22/2012 2:46:44 PM, jat93 wrote:
Just because I raised my kids differently than you would raise yours doesn't mean that I'm "cheating". It's called parental rights.

It's cheating in the sense that you are not permitting them to explore the ideas for themselves. There is no level playing field for discussion of ideas because people are forced to believe things.

I think your point is a misguided one. Parents can force behaviors, like going to church, sitting up straight and pretending to pay attention. They can't, however, force a belief system to stay with a child into adulthood. It's human nature to question, and I doubt there is an adult Christian who has not questioned the Bible, and sought answers beyond what their parents told them.

As for a level playing field, I would ask the following question. What gives anyone else a seat at the table when it comes to how I raise my child?? Atheists, Buddhists, etc., have no right to my child. I have parental rights, and it seems as though you guys advocate for circumventing parental rights, so that kids can be indoctrinated into whatever belief system you favor.

I could very easily claim that kids are indoctrinated to believe that God doesn't exist, which also can't be proven, in school.
That's not true at all. My public school and private school were filled with religious people and they often referred to gambling, sex, etc. as sinful. There is no Atheist indoctrination anywhere. You are not part of an oppressed majority.
Why should people who believe something that can't be proven, have more of a right to affect the beliefs of my child than me??

Our point is that nobody has the right to affect the beliefs of anybody. Let people become rational enough to evaluate the ideas and then make the choice for themselves.

Parents do have a right to affect the beliefs of their children, and can't help but do so. I strongly disagree with your point. Should I leave my child at home with an atheist babysitter while my wife and I attend church on Sunday, or attend other church related functions?? Send them away if we're having friends from the church over for a barbecue?? How exactly do I enjoy the freedom of religion, without having it have some influence on my child??
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/23/2012 10:14:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've always wondered how may people would believe in God if their parents and society in general didn't implant God in their brains at an early age...Belief in God seems to be like a mental cancer that gets passed on through the generations.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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6/23/2012 12:24:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 10:14:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've always wondered how may people would believe in God if their parents and society in general didn't implant God in their brains at an early age...Belief in God seems to be like a mental cancer that gets passed on through the generations.

Lrn2 cognitive science, bro. Read any of the leading cognitive of scientists of religion (including the atheist ones) and I guarantee you will not find that explanation. Most agree that religion is a rather easily come by, natural byproduct, of a healthy cognitive system.

http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...

Etc.

There's also been research that indicates that we tend to naturally find dualism appealing which is pretty interesting.

http://www.amazon.com...

Anyhow, people should definitely read the first book I listed.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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6/23/2012 5:17:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 9:33:16 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Honestly, indoctrination is bad for religion anyways. It just promotes carrying out meaningless, mindless rituals, and then people aren't really practitioners of that faith except in name only.

The Fool: like fundementalist Ideologiies
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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6/23/2012 5:18:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 12:24:33 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/23/2012 10:14:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've always wondered how may people would believe in God if their parents and society in general didn't implant God in their brains at an early age...Belief in God seems to be like a mental cancer that gets passed on through the generations.

Lrn2 cognitive science, bro. Read any of the leading cognitive of scientists of religion (including the atheist ones) and I guarantee you will not find that explanation. Most agree that religion is a rather easily come by, natural byproduct, of a healthy cognitive system.

http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...

Etc.

There's also been research that indicates that we tend to naturally find dualism appealing which is pretty interesting.

http://www.amazon.com...

Anyhow, people should definitely read the first book I listed.

The Fool: hahahahahahahhahahahahhha
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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6/23/2012 5:20:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/23/2012 12:24:33 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/23/2012 10:14:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've always wondered how may people would believe in God if their parents and society in general didn't implant God in their brains at an early age...Belief in God seems to be like a mental cancer that gets passed on through the generations.

Lrn2 cognitive science, bro. Read any of the leading cognitive of scientists of religion (including the atheist ones) and I guarantee you will not find that explanation. Most agree that religion is a rather easily come by, natural byproduct, of a healthy cognitive system.

http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...

Etc.

There's also been research that indicates that we tend to naturally find dualism appealing which is pretty interesting.

http://www.amazon.com...

Anyhow, people should definitely read the first book I listed.

The Fool: but its a lie. If the more and more your brain gets damaged, the more and more you lose cognition, why do you think when its all gone, it come back?. lol
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL