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A perfect heaven is impossible

twocupcakes
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6/24/2012 7:36:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If God only allows believers into heaven and non-believers get hell, then Heaven cannot a perfect place. Every believer will have many non-believer friends/family. These friends/family will be being tortured forever in hell. One cannot be happy, in peace or resting, knowing that they have friends/family being tortured forever. In fact having friends/family be tortured forever would be worse then hell for many people. So, it is impossible for heaven to be a perfect place.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/24/2012 10:21:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 7:36:07 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
If God only allows believers into heaven and non-believers get hell, then Heaven cannot a perfect place. Every believer will have many non-believer friends/family. These friends/family will be being tortured forever in hell. One cannot be happy, in peace or resting, knowing that they have friends/family being tortured forever. In fact having friends/family be tortured forever would be worse then hell for many people. So, it is impossible for heaven to be a perfect place.

I'm not sure I've heard anyone say heaven is a "perfect" place. Also without a context, "perfect" is subjective.
twocupcakes
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6/24/2012 10:49:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm not sure I've heard anyone say heaven is a "perfect" place. Also without a context, "perfect" is subjective.

Yeah, I suppose theists don't think that heaven is perfect. However, if believers get heaven and non-believers hell, it seems that heaven is awful. It is awful to know that you have friends/family being tortured forever and there is nothing you can do about it. It seems heaven is awful.
caveat
Posts: 2,137
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6/24/2012 10:58:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've been told that I will just not care because being with God will be infinitely and eternally greater and outweigh the suffering my friends and family will endure.

Sounds fun.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/24/2012 11:15:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
In addition to C.S. Lewis' insightful book The Great Divorce, N.T. Wright reminds us that God isn't going to be held captive by those who haven't abandoned their pride and accepted God's gracious forgiveness. Such "party-poopers, spoil-sports, and grouches" could be compared to the prodigal son's older brother who refuses to come in to celebrate the return of the lost son (Lk. 15:25-32). Why should the celebrating stop simply because some refuse to enter the banquet hall? God has done all he can to offer genuine forgiveness to all. What more can God do for those who refuse to come in? We have a right to sit out, but we don't have the right to hold up the party that celebrates God's redeeming us from captivity.

It's appropriate that a victorious army that has fought in a just cause celebrate and enjoy the results of that victory.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/24/2012 11:21:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:15:05 AM, stubs wrote:
In addition to C.S. Lewis' insightful book The Great Divorce, N.T. Wright reminds us that God isn't going to be held captive by those who haven't abandoned their pride and accepted God's gracious forgiveness. Such "party-poopers, spoil-sports, and grouches" could be compared to the prodigal son's older brother who refuses to come in to celebrate the return of the lost son (Lk. 15:25-32). Why should the celebrating stop simply because some refuse to enter the banquet hall? God has done all he can to offer genuine forgiveness to all. What more can God do for those who refuse to come in? We have a right to sit out, but we don't have the right to hold up the party that celebrates God's redeeming us from captivity.

It's appropriate that a victorious army that has fought in a just cause celebrate and enjoy the results of that victory.

Yo dawg, I heard you just called people mourning after their family and friend's eternal suffering as grouches. Who says ideology and religion never subvert basic empathy.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/24/2012 11:28:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:21:47 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:15:05 AM, stubs wrote:
In addition to C.S. Lewis' insightful book The Great Divorce, N.T. Wright reminds us that God isn't going to be held captive by those who haven't abandoned their pride and accepted God's gracious forgiveness. Such "party-poopers, spoil-sports, and grouches" could be compared to the prodigal son's older brother who refuses to come in to celebrate the return of the lost son (Lk. 15:25-32). Why should the celebrating stop simply because some refuse to enter the banquet hall? God has done all he can to offer genuine forgiveness to all. What more can God do for those who refuse to come in? We have a right to sit out, but we don't have the right to hold up the party that celebrates God's redeeming us from captivity.

It's appropriate that a victorious army that has fought in a just cause celebrate and enjoy the results of that victory.

Yo dawg, I heard you just called people mourning after their family and friend's eternal suffering as grouches. Who says ideology and religion never subvert basic empathy.

Whats up X-Zibit? I was meaning that the grouches were those that did not respond affirmatively to God's gracious love and forgiveness. If you invite people to a party and one person doesn't want to come, do you cancel the party?
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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6/24/2012 11:34:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:28:59 AM, stubs wrote:
Whats up X-Zibit? I was meaning that the grouches were those that did not respond affirmatively to God's gracious love and forgiveness. If you invite people to a party and one person doesn't want to come, do you cancel the party?

It would probably put a downer on the party if the dude who invited everyone has the people who weren't invited locked up in a torture chamber.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/24/2012 11:34:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:28:59 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:21:47 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:15:05 AM, stubs wrote:
In addition to C.S. Lewis' insightful book The Great Divorce, N.T. Wright reminds us that God isn't going to be held captive by those who haven't abandoned their pride and accepted God's gracious forgiveness. Such "party-poopers, spoil-sports, and grouches" could be compared to the prodigal son's older brother who refuses to come in to celebrate the return of the lost son (Lk. 15:25-32). Why should the celebrating stop simply because some refuse to enter the banquet hall? God has done all he can to offer genuine forgiveness to all. What more can God do for those who refuse to come in? We have a right to sit out, but we don't have the right to hold up the party that celebrates God's redeeming us from captivity.

It's appropriate that a victorious army that has fought in a just cause celebrate and enjoy the results of that victory.

Yo dawg, I heard you just called people mourning after their family and friend's eternal suffering as grouches. Who says ideology and religion never subvert basic empathy.

Whats up X-Zibit? I was meaning that the grouches were those that did not respond affirmatively to God's gracious love and forgiveness. If you invite people to a party and one person doesn't want to come, do you cancel the party?

False analogy brah. Are you saying God doesn't possess the ability to bring people to Heaven or at the very least to just allow them to die fully instead of suffering eternally? Obviously he could do this so the idea you're positing that they have to go to Hell because they're not Christians is fallacious in and of itself. Second, fvck anyone who thinks that I have to totally ignore the suffering of my friends and family. Even if I'm deluded enough to think God couldn't have done anything about it and don't blame it on God, that doesn't mean I can't be sad for my homies.

Of course, I myself believe that even if Christianity were true, there probably wouldn't even be a Hell so meh.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/24/2012 11:34:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:34:08 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:28:59 AM, stubs wrote:
Whats up X-Zibit? I was meaning that the grouches were those that did not respond affirmatively to God's gracious love and forgiveness. If you invite people to a party and one person doesn't want to come, do you cancel the party?

It would probably put a downer on the party if the dude who invited everyone has the people who weren't invited locked up in a torture chamber.

Nah bro, butz he was powerless in the matter. Didn't ya hear? Us atheists and non-Christians want to burnz forever!
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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6/24/2012 11:39:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Possible defense for the Christian: God could deceive us into believing that our friends and family are in heaven. Or subtly alter our psychology such that we never consider the fact that they are in hell - a sort of 'mental block' which preserves our happiness.
Kinesis
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6/24/2012 11:40:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:34:54 AM, socialpinko wrote:
Nah bro, butz he was powerless in the matter. Didn't ya hear? Us atheists and non-Christians want to burnz forever!

I know I do!
socialpinko
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6/24/2012 11:41:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:40:13 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:34:54 AM, socialpinko wrote:
Nah bro, butz he was powerless in the matter. Didn't ya hear? Us atheists and non-Christians want to burnz forever!

I know I do!

I hope I see cool people there. Aldous Huxley seems like he knows how to party.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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6/24/2012 11:46:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:41:10 AM, socialpinko wrote:
I hope I see cool people there. Aldous Huxley seems like he knows how to party.

Yah, most of the interesting people are non-Christians. I just hope satan lets us all hang out together.
socialpinko
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6/24/2012 11:47:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:46:03 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:41:10 AM, socialpinko wrote:
I hope I see cool people there. Aldous Huxley seems like he knows how to party.

Yah, most of the interesting people are non-Christians. I just hope satan lets us all hang out together.

I hope Satan turns out to just be Anton LeVay with a pitchfork.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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6/24/2012 12:12:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:39:51 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Possible defense for the Christian: God could deceive us into believing that our friends and family are in heaven. Or subtly alter our psychology such that we never consider the fact that they are in hell - a sort of 'mental block' which preserves our happiness.

But, then God would be lying to us. I do not think that an all good being would lie to us.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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6/24/2012 12:40:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 12:12:08 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:39:51 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Possible defense for the Christian: God could deceive us into believing that our friends and family are in heaven. Or subtly alter our psychology such that we never consider the fact that they are in hell - a sort of 'mental block' which preserves our happiness.

But, then God would be lying to us. I do not think that an all good being would lie to us.

Why do you think that? If lying to someone caused them happiness wouldn't that be considered to be a greater good? (Would an all-good person tell the truth if their wife asked if this dress made them look fat? :P)
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/24/2012 12:47:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:34:08 AM, Kinesis wrote:

It would probably put a downer on the party if the dude who invited everyone has the people who weren't invited locked up in a torture chamber.

But everyone was invited.
THEBOMB
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6/24/2012 12:48:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 12:47:38 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:34:08 AM, Kinesis wrote:

It would probably put a downer on the party if the dude who invited everyone has the people who weren't invited locked up in a torture chamber.

But everyone was invited. But not everyone arrived.
Kinesis
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6/24/2012 12:50:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 12:47:38 PM, stubs wrote:
But everyone was invited.

Okay, the guy has locked all the people who didn't know the party was going on in a torture chamber. Not any better.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/24/2012 1:07:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 11:34:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:

False analogy brah. Are you saying God doesn't possess the ability to bring people to Heaven or at the very least to just allow them to die fully instead of suffering eternally? Obviously he could do this so the idea you're positing that they have to go to Hell because they're not Christians is fallacious in and of itself. Second, fvck anyone who thinks that I have to totally ignore the suffering of my friends and family. Even if I'm deluded enough to think God couldn't have done anything about it and don't blame it on God, that doesn't mean I can't be sad for my homies.

Of course, I myself believe that even if Christianity were true, there probably wouldn't even be a Hell so meh.

I think God could bring everyone to heaven. I don't think he will and I would even say I'm not sure everyone in Hell would rather be in heaven. There could be a debate philosophically about that, but there is no biblical evidence that those in hell would rather be in heaven.

How is saying those that are not Christians go to hell a fallacy?

I also think that we will be so overwhelmed by the grace and power of God that we may not even think of those in Hell. Rev 21 says there is no morning. Isaiah 65 says that the old earth will not be remembered. How can you mourn someone you don't remember? And yes the thought that my best friends who don't know Christ will be in hell is sickening. I live in CT (profile says West Palm because I go to school there) and in general the northeast is known for kind of being the opposite of the bible belt haha. I never really enjoyed going to youthgroup at my church because I wasn't friends with any of them. I was friends with all the athletes who partied all the time. All I can do is try to be a light for Christ and hope that they see God somehow. I would never want to see them go to hell. I think C.S Lewis said it best, "There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord's own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason."
stubs
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6/24/2012 1:10:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 12:50:55 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/24/2012 12:47:38 PM, stubs wrote:
But everyone was invited.

Okay, the guy has locked all the people who didn't know the party was going on in a torture chamber. Not any better.

Did you not hear about the party? If not you're invited if you want. Hope you come, but don't say you didn't hear about it (:
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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6/24/2012 1:16:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 12:50:55 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/24/2012 12:47:38 PM, stubs wrote:
But everyone was invited.

Okay, the guy has locked all the people who didn't know the party was going on in a torture chamber. Not any better.

Wrong. Read the bible. (I'm tired of this argument...even though I'm not Christian). If you don't know about Christianity, if you never heard about Christ, you will not be locked in hell.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/24/2012 1:36:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 1:07:57 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:34:15 AM, socialpinko wrote:

False analogy brah. Are you saying God doesn't possess the ability to bring people to Heaven or at the very least to just allow them to die fully instead of suffering eternally? Obviously he could do this so the idea you're positing that they have to go to Hell because they're not Christians is fallacious in and of itself. Second, fvck anyone who thinks that I have to totally ignore the suffering of my friends and family. Even if I'm deluded enough to think God couldn't have done anything about it and don't blame it on God, that doesn't mean I can't be sad for my homies.

Of course, I myself believe that even if Christianity were true, there probably wouldn't even be a Hell so meh.

I think God could bring everyone to heaven. I don't think he will and I would even say I'm not sure everyone in Hell would rather be in heaven. There could be a debate philosophically about that, but there is no biblical evidence that those in hell would rather be in heaven.

(A) That doesn't mean they would rather be in hell and you haven't shown why there needs to be such a ridiculous dichotomy. I wouldn't want to spend eternity alive but I also wouldn't want to spend eternity alive and suffering. Perhaps just letting non-believers die when they die would be a better option and (B) You're basing your argument off of Biblical inerrancy which can be empirically disputed. All I have to do is find one non-Christian who has at some point expressed a non-preference for eternal suffering. Not too hard is it?

How is saying those that are not Christians go to hell a fallacy?

You're saying that if they "decide" not to go to Heaven then they must WANT to go to hell. Fallacy hombre.

I also think that we will be so overwhelmed by the grace and power of God that we may not even think of those in Hell. Rev 21 says there is no morning. Isaiah 65 says that the old earth will not be remembered. How can you mourn someone you don't remember? And yes the thought that my best friends who don't know Christ will be in hell is sickening. I live in CT (profile says West Palm because I go to school there) and in general the northeast is known for kind of being the opposite of the bible belt haha. I never really enjoyed going to youthgroup at my church because I wasn't friends with any of them. I was friends with all the athletes who partied all the time. All I can do is try to be a light for Christ and hope that they see God somehow. I would never want to see them go to hell. I think C.S Lewis said it best, "There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord's own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason."

So let me get this straight. You're defense of eternal hell suffering for non-Christians is that you just won't remember it? So what? I don't know the names of every single person tortured to death over history but that doesn't mean that them being tortured to death is okay at all. Or does ignorance mean moral permissibility in Christianity?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/24/2012 1:37:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 1:10:50 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/24/2012 12:50:55 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/24/2012 12:47:38 PM, stubs wrote:
But everyone was invited.

Okay, the guy has locked all the people who didn't know the party was going on in a torture chamber. Not any better.

Did you not hear about the party? If not you're invited if you want. Hope you come, but don't say you didn't hear about it (:

When I invite someone to a party, I usually don't tell them they have to go to Hell if they don't show up.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/24/2012 1:37:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 1:16:44 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 6/24/2012 12:50:55 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/24/2012 12:47:38 PM, stubs wrote:
But everyone was invited.

Okay, the guy has locked all the people who didn't know the party was going on in a torture chamber. Not any better.

Wrong. Read the bible. (I'm tired of this argument...even though I'm not Christian). If you don't know about Christianity, if you never heard about Christ, you will not be locked in hell.

And if you have heard about it but don't fine it convincing you will be locked in hell. Moral relevance?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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6/24/2012 1:40:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 12:40:58 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 6/24/2012 12:12:08 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 6/24/2012 11:39:51 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Possible defense for the Christian: God could deceive us into believing that our friends and family are in heaven. Or subtly alter our psychology such that we never consider the fact that they are in hell - a sort of 'mental block' which preserves our happiness.

But, then God would be lying to us. I do not think that an all good being would lie to us.

Why do you think that? If lying to someone caused them happiness wouldn't that be considered to be a greater good? (Would an all-good person tell the truth if their wife asked if this dress made them look fat? :P)

What about if a wife asks her husband whether he is brutally her sister and hiding the evidence? I don't think an all good person should lie about whether he is torturing people or not.

Also, even this God did this, and told everyone that their family/friends were not in hell, there would be no reason to believe God. We would know that God is going to tell us friends/family are not in hell no matter what. So we could never rest peacefully because we would never know for sure.
InquireTruth
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6/24/2012 1:44:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Assumes free will exists in heaven and that we'll be aware of the eternal state of those in Hell. Assumes also a very specific view of Hell that may not be supported.
twocupcakes
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6/24/2012 1:50:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 1:44:15 PM, InquireTruth wrote:
Assumes free will exists in heaven and that we'll be aware of the eternal state of those in Hell. Assumes also a very specific view of Hell that may not be supported.

Well, if God deprived people of free will in heaven, then wouldn't heaven be awful. I think not having free will would be awful.
Kinesis
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6/24/2012 2:06:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 1:10:50 PM, stubs wrote:
Did you not hear about the party? If not you're invited if you want. Hope you come, but don't say you didn't hear about it (:

Oh, I heard about it - I just don't think the party is real. But those people in Canada who never even heard of the party, they're screwed too.