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Perry Marshall/Information Arising

ToastOfDestiny
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8/22/2009 11:26:09 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I was trawling the recesses of my inbox, when I stumbled upon this.

<email>

See this email I just sent you, that you're reading right now? This email is proof of the existence of God. Yeah, I know, that sounds crazy. But I'm not asking you
to believe anything just yet, until you see the evidence for yourself. All I ask is that you refrain from disbelieving while I show you my proof. It only takes a minute to convey, but it speaks to one of the most important questions of all
time.

So how is this email proof of the existence of God?

This email you're reading contains letters, words and sentences. It contains a message that means something. As long as you can read English, you can understand what I'm saying.

You can do all kinds of things with this email. You can read it on your computer screen. You can print it out on your printer. You can read it out loud to a friend who's in the same room as you are. You can call your friend and read it
to her over the telephone. You can save it as a Microsoft WORD document. You can forward it to someone via email, or you can post it on a website.

Regardless of how you copy it or where you send it, the information remains the same. My email contains a message. It contains information in the form of language. The message is independent of the medium it is sent in.

Messages are not matter, even though they can be carried by matter (like printing this email on a piece of paper).

Messages are not energy even though they can be carried by energy (like the sound of my voice.)

Messages are immaterial. Information is itself a unique kind of entity. It can be stored and transmitted and copied in many forms, but the meaning still stays the same.

Messages can be in English, French or Chinese. Or Morse Code. Or mating calls of birds. Or the Internet. Or radio or television. Or computer programs or architect
blueprints or stone carvings. Every cell in your body contains a message encoded in DNA, representing a complete plan for you.

OK, so what does this have to do with God?

It's very simple. Messages, languages, and coded information ONLY come from a mind. A mind that agrees on an alphabet and a meaning of words and sentences. A mind that expresses both desire and intent.

Whether I use the simplest possible explanation, such as the one I'm giving you here, or if we analyze language with advanced mathematics and engineering
communication theory, we can say this with total confidence:

"Messages, languages and coded information never, ever come from anything else besides a mind. No one has ever produced a single example of a message
that did not come from a mind."

Nature can create fascinating patterns - snowflakes, sand dunes, crystals, stalagmites and stalactites. Tornadoes and turbulence and cloud formations.

But non-living things cannot create language. They *cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they cannot talk. And they cannot create information.

It is believed by some that life on planet earth arose accidentally from the "primordial soup," the early ocean which produced enzymes and eventually RNA, DNA, and primitive cells.

But there is still a problem with this theory: It fails to answer the question, 'Where did the information come from?'

DNA is not merely a molecule. Nor is it simply a "pattern."Yes, it contains chemicals and proteins, but those chemicals are arranged to form an intricate language, in the exact same way that English and Chinese and HTML are languages.

DNA has a four-letter alphabet, and structures very similar to words, sentences and paragraphs. With very precise instructions and systems that check for errors and correct them.

To the person who says that life arose naturally, you need only ask: "Where did the information come from? Show me just ONE example of a language that didn't come
from a mind."

As simple as this question is, I've personally presented it in public presentations and Internet discussion forums for more than four years. I've addressed more than 100,000 people, including hostile, skeptical audiences who insist that
life arose without the assistance of God.

But to a person, none of them have ever been able to explain where the information came from. This riddle is "So simple any child can understand; so complex, no atheist can solve."

Matter and energy have to come from somewhere. Everyone can agree on that. But information has to come from somewhere, too!

Information is separate entity, fully on par with matter and energy. And information can only come from a mind. If books and poems and TV shows come from human intelligence, then all living things inevitably came from a superintelligence.

Every word you hear, every sentence you speak, every dog that barks, every song you sing, every email you read, every packet of information that zings across the Internet, is proof of the existence of God. Because information and language always originate in a mind.

In the beginning were words and language.

In the Beginning was Information.

When we consider the mystery of life - where it came from and how this miracle is possible - do we not at the same time ask the question where it is going, and what its purpose is?

</email>

Thoughts?
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2009 11:32:07 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Logically flawed but still a fun read.

In the end the only thing he has is the complexity of life.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
ToastOfDestiny
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8/22/2009 11:33:45 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
The first thing I can think of is that 'information' is something not only created by a mind, but thought of by a mind. Basically, we created the concept of information itself.

Perry Marshall draws a line, stating that DNA is a code, but that molecules aren't. I disagree with this - the universe contains a huge amount of information. Quarks have spin, color, flavor, mass, charge, and a million other properties, which 'tell' other quarks and particles how to interact with it.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/22/2009 11:40:12 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/22/2009 11:33:45 AM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
The first thing I can think of is that 'information' is something not only created by a mind, but thought of by a mind. Basically, we created the concept of information itself.


Exactly.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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8/22/2009 11:44:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/22/2009 11:26:09 AM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
Thoughts?

Incoherent, rambling nonsense, that proves nothing.

If we take the few sentences in the rambling nonsense that actually tries to say something about the topic, it's these:

And information can only come from a mind. If books and poems and TV shows come from human intelligence, then all living things inevitably came from a superintelligence.

Every word you hear, every sentence you speak, every dog that barks, every song you sing, every email you read, every packet of information that zings across the Internet, is proof of the existence of God.

Everything else can be ignored. And here is what is wrong:

And information can only come from a mind.

Wrong. Information is just energy. In a computer it's states of transistors. It has nothing to do with a mind.

If books and poems and TV shows come from human intelligence, then all living things inevitably came from a superintelligence.

Non sequitor.

Every word you hear, every sentence you speak, every dog that barks, every song you sing, every email you read, every packet of information that zings across the Internet, is proof of the existence of God.

Non sequitor.
So prove me wrong, then.
Lexicaholic
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8/22/2009 11:47:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I disagree with the conclusion that the exchange of information requires a rational sender. Arguably any process that transmits data upon which something acts is a message process for the purposes of this argument, and that would include forces like gravity, which "tells" things to stay put, or kinetic energy, which tells things to move. There is no reason to believe that the process requires an intelligence.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
LB628
Posts: 176
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8/22/2009 11:50:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Information is all in interpretation. English would be meaningless gibberish to anyone who did not understand English. So, if we interpret something to have meaning, and to have information, than it does. There is no thing which "objectively" has information, only things which can be interpreted as containing information.
I-am-a-panda
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8/22/2009 11:55:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Why the hell would God make thousands of languages? If he had control of languages, he would have had 1.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
regebro
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8/22/2009 12:06:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/22/2009 11:47:26 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
I disagree with the conclusion that the exchange of information requires a rational sender. Arguably any process that transmits data upon which something acts is a message process for the purposes of this argument, and that would include forces like gravity, which "tells" things to stay put, or kinetic energy, which tells things to move. There is no reason to believe that the process requires an intelligence.

Good explanation.
So prove me wrong, then.
ToastOfDestiny
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8/22/2009 1:40:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/22/2009 11:47:26 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
I disagree with the conclusion that the exchange of information requires a rational sender. Arguably any process that transmits data upon which something acts is a message process for the purposes of this argument, and that would include forces like gravity, which "tells" things to stay put, or kinetic energy, which tells things to move. There is no reason to believe that the process requires an intelligence.

Yup. The forces 'tell' things to do stuff the same way that DNA 'tells' us what amino acids to make.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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8/22/2009 2:11:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Off the top of my head and without studying the issue thoroughly:

Life is not a language so much as it is a bunch of chemical reactions. Our movements, our thoughts, &ct. are all chemical reactions. This is why the analogy is not quite fitting. Spoken language must be thought up by a mind, chemical reactions do not.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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8/22/2009 2:13:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/22/2009 2:11:24 PM, JBlake wrote:
Off the top of my head and without studying the issue thoroughly:

Life is not a language so much as it is a bunch of chemical reactions. Our movements, our thoughts, &ct. are all chemical reactions. This is why the analogy is not quite fitting. Spoken language must be thought up by a mind, chemical reactions do not.

The mind, though, is a series of chemical reactions, which reactions change in reaction to language. There really is no good reason to differentiate thought from other life processes.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/22/2009 11:36:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/22/2009 11:55:15 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Why the hell would God make thousands of languages? If he had control of languages, he would have had 1.

God was scared to see all mankind united when they were building the tower of babel, so he cursed us with many languages so that we may never unite to threaten him again.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/23/2009 10:35:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/22/2009 11:36:50 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2009 11:55:15 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Why the hell would God make thousands of languages? If he had control of languages, he would have had 1.

God was scared to see all mankind united when they were building the tower of babel, so he cursed us with many languages so that we may never unite to threaten him again.

Which doesn't seem the most effective way to do that.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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8/23/2009 10:39:55 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/23/2009 10:35:18 AM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/22/2009 11:36:50 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2009 11:55:15 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Why the hell would God make thousands of languages? If he had control of languages, he would have had 1.

God was scared to see all mankind united when they were building the tower of babel, so he cursed us with many languages so that we may never unite to threaten him again.

Which doesn't seem the most effective way to do that.

Yep, he could've just nuked everyb- oh wait, God doesn't have nukes.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
I-am-a-panda
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8/23/2009 10:41:55 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/22/2009 11:36:50 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2009 11:55:15 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Why the hell would God make thousands of languages? If he had control of languages, he would have had 1.

God was scared to see all mankind united when they were building the tower of babel, so he cursed us with many languages so that we may never unite to threaten him again.

Right, and the evidence of Native American and Australian Aboriginal writings in Babylon??
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/23/2009 11:38:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/23/2009 10:41:55 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/22/2009 11:36:50 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2009 11:55:15 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Why the hell would God make thousands of languages? If he had control of languages, he would have had 1.

God was scared to see all mankind united when they were building the tower of babel, so he cursed us with many languages so that we may never unite to threaten him again.

Right, and the evidence of Native American and Australian Aboriginal writings in Babylon??

Erm... well there wouldn't be any...
Obviously!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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8/23/2009 11:42:33 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/23/2009 10:41:55 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/22/2009 11:36:50 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2009 11:55:15 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Why the hell would God make thousands of languages? If he had control of languages, he would have had 1.

God was scared to see all mankind united when they were building the tower of babel, so he cursed us with many languages so that we may never unite to threaten him again.

Right, and the evidence of Native American and Australian Aboriginal writings in Babylon??

Clearly, God erased the physical evidence in order to test our faith.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/24/2009 6:32:27 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
They got soggy in the flood.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Floid
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8/24/2009 10:22:40 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Messages, languages and coded information never, ever come from anything else besides a mind. No one has ever produced a single example of a message
that did not come from a mind.


I can't say that because I don't have complete knowledge of the universe. Obviously whoever wrote that e-mail did...

"But non-living things cannot create language. They *cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they cannot talk. And they cannot create information."

Really? I might argue that tree rings are a code for how old trees are.

" But there is still a problem with this theory: It fails to answer the question, 'Where did the information come from?'"

Where did the information for God come from? It seems the author of your e-mail was a little shortsighted in their application of the statements they make. If God can self-create information from nothing, then why exactly couldn't the universe or random chance?

To the person who says that life arose naturally, you need only ask: "Where did the information come from? Show me just ONE example of a language that didn't come from a mind."

Show me just one example of a god existing. It seems lack of evidence isn't as big of a deal as the author would make it out to be.

But to a person, none of them have ever been able to explain where the information came from. This riddle is "So simple any child can understand; so complex, no atheist can solve."

This ignoes the fact that "we don't know everything" is a much smarter statement than proposing an idea that is based soley on conjecture and is likely to be wrong.

I don't know, but I am sure the author of that e-mail didn't know either.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/31/2009 10:08:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Which is to say:

In the beginning was the Word (meaning/information) and the Word was with God.
John1:1
The Cross.. the Cross.