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It couldn't have happened by chance!

SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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6/29/2012 1:32:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
When I asked a theist friend for proof of God, he mentioned how the universe in the start was so chaotic that it could not lead to order, but only to more and more chaos. And yes, that seems to be intuitive, but how could we then make a sort of a time map about the universe from the start to this point not including God?

We now do know how the universe evolved, from the start of the big bang. First came stars, from giant piles of gas, then they exploded, leading to new elements and so on. Over time, galaxies were created, and many planets along the way. You probably know the story.

But how could this arise if there is so much chaos in the universe? Is it because same, consistent laws of physics lead to patterns? But if there are these patterns, then the universe was not chaotic, right? Well, chaos is disorder, randomness, but what does this randomness refer to? I think you could say that the chaos in the universe refers to how we cannot know at which point in space we will see a galaxy, an asteroid or a planet. We do know, however, that these will exist somewhere.

It's kind of like spilling a lot of balls over a surface. You cannot know where will certain ball end up (unless you did a lot of calculations), but you will know that there will be clusters, places where balls will be concentrated, and places where they will be much more scarce.

In one sense, the universe is random, but in another, it is not. We cannot predict what will happen and what exists at which point in space, but we can predict that certain patterns are thrown out through the space.

So you cannot really say that since there was so much chaos in the universe, planets couldn't have emerged without God's fingers creating order. The laws of physics themselves dictate that patterns will arise in this bunch of scattered mass and energy.

I hope I made sense here. I really want to see your opinion on this and if I'm getting this right.
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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6/29/2012 2:34:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The only part the religious disagree with is the origin of the Universe.

To them, adding another step with the addition of a supreme being before the creation of the Universe makes more sense than the simpler explanation.
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/29/2012 2:45:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/29/2012 2:34:17 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The only part the religious disagree with is the origin of the Universe.

To them, adding another step with the addition of a supreme being before the creation of the Universe makes more sense than the simpler explanation.

Well, to be fair they just don't see how the universe could have came from nothing....This is why they put a God there.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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6/30/2012 1:46:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/29/2012 1:32:57 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
When I asked a theist friend for proof of God, he mentioned how the universe in the start was so chaotic that it could not lead to order, but only to more and more chaos. And yes, that seems to be intuitive, but how could we then make a sort of a time map about the universe from the start to this point not including God?

The Fool; Time is just a measurement of change, is eternal. It cannot sieze to change because it is Change. Secondly science indicated that there was less choas and things are getting more chaotic. ITs bullsh!t anyways!. Science is an evolving set of knowledge. every generation things that they have the final explanation. (the bible is a first century explanation, before education existed. It more justifiable why they would believe such notions) But not so much now. we know better.

We now do know how the universe evolved, from the start of the big bang. First came stars, from giant piles of gas, then they exploded, leading to new elements and so on. Over time, galaxies were created, and many planets along the way. You probably know the story.

The Fool: its not a Good one, today's fact are tommorows failures but each one gets better. Religious people are too in a rush to know everything. We know more information then before, and our children will no more then we do generations to come. Why think everything must be known right NOW!.

But how could this arise if there is so much chaos in the universe?

The Fool: its not chaos is the appearence we get when We don't understand something, so is random. We learn by grasping patterns in the universe, random is a lack of one. its a logical fallacy, But scientist are over specialize in there disciplines they don't back up to see the BIG picture. To explain something as Random is to throw you hand up in defeat and say SH!T HAPPENS.

Is it because same, consistent laws of physics lead to patterns?

The Fool: RIght determinism is a property of the universe.

But if there are these patterns, then the universe was not chaotic, right?

The Fool: its just as bad as saying God did it. because we don't know how he does't his thing.

Well, chaos is disorder, randomness, but what does this randomness refer to?

The Fool: Scientist keep making (recognization vs. reallity) fallacy its a serious problem, with the progress of science, Random is not a property of something.

I think you could say that the chaos in the universe refers to how we cannot know at which point in space we will see a galaxy, an asteroid or a planet.

The Fool: Chaos=ignorance. If you were at a party and suddenly forgot everthing you now, the place would appear chaotic. Things would appear to be random. E.g. if you look at complex math books, it looks like there are random symbols and pattern because you are ignorant to the meaning. But as you learn math and get to the point where you are ready to study that, it no longer appears random. Knowledge aquisition derandomizing this.

We do know, however, that these will exist somewhere. It's kind of like spilling a lot of balls over a surface. You cannot know where will certain ball end up (unless you did a lot of calculations), but you will know that there will be clusters, places where balls will be concentrated, and places where they will be much more scarce.

The Fool: notice when we role a dice the hole purpose if to make us ignorant of what the dice will deal. But if we stuck a mini camera in our hands and seen it bounce everyway in slow mo. We would know where it is end. Even computers are fake random Psuedo-random, We can't even create actual random if we wanted too.

In one sense, the universe is random, but in another, it is not. We cannot predict what will happen and what exists at which point in space, but we can predict that certain patterns are thrown out through the space.

The Fool: it can never actualy be random, or we could not have learned anything anywhere at any time.
For lets say say we there is a chain of evidents.
A->B->C->D ->E if at anytime one part of the universe was random lets say B. The entire chain would be random, because it would all be connected. THERE IS NO RANDOM.
No quantum physics would say that things are randon on a micro level. But these are the part which make up the macro part. AKA part the the chain. They are Crazy, if you have to say that 'if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't know it" THen who the Fvck knows IT!!! Its Retarded. They just won't let go of it let a Christian and the Bible.

So you cannot really say that since there was so much chaos in the universe, planets couldn't have emerged without God's fingers creating order.

The Fool: This will away be an appeal to ignorance you could never jump from I don't know how so it must have been GOD. aka God of Gap. IT IS ALWAYS WRONG. ALWAYS AND FOREVER IT WILL BE HORRIBLE THINKING! Its completly irrational. You have to prove GOD First, before you can even claim God. It is not the automatic DEFAULT option.

The Fool::You can't go from I don't know to I know Its GOD. You can't go from 0->1 no information to a massive amount of assumptions out of know where.

The laws of physics themselves dictate that patterns will arise in this bunch of scattered mass and energy.

The Fool: I think you still have alot to learn.

I hope I made sense here. I really want to see your opinion on this and if I'm getting this right.

The Fool: anything makes sense in a Religious sense. That is why its called Religion in the first place, scientology is a Religion wh?y because it does't make rational sense. Just calling it ration can make it rational. Rational comes from the philospher called the rationalist and it meant to think in coherence with logic. But because everybody want to claim rationality they meaning has been twisted and manipulated by people. But you can never be wrong about your own definition, because it is the 'idea' of the person who coins the term which is invested in it. If anybody saya its not that even the dictionary they are all wrong. That is where Etymology and knowledge of history comes in very handy because you can see what it was meant to mean before people mutilated it and subjectivies them.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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6/30/2012 7:16:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/30/2012 1:46:00 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: I think you still have alot to learn.

I guess. Just tried to explain some of the things I've been thinking. Eh, thanks for the almost incomprehensible explanation of things.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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6/30/2012 8:16:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The idea of the universe being chaos is one that has pretty much been put to bed. Yes, it is complex: there's a lot of parts involved in it. It kinda is what everything tangible operates in, as well as the laws of physics. And Biology. And Chemistry. It is obviously going to be complex. But is it chaotic? Hardly. Things hit each other, which is governed by laws of the universe, then split by being governed by the laws of the universe. Planets form and die, governed by laws in the universe. It's complex, yes. Not chaotic.

The question is how likely are these laws to form, are they necessary, for example? I'd sooner say these laws of the universe are necessary than a God which is necessary creating laws of the universe which are necessary OR laws of the universe which are contingent which leads to such massive suffering.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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6/30/2012 9:46:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/30/2012 8:16:56 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
The idea of the universe being chaos is one that has pretty much been put to bed. Yes, it is complex: there's a lot of parts involved in it. It kinda is what everything tangible operates in, as well as the laws of physics. And Biology. And Chemistry. It is obviously going to be complex. But is it chaotic? Hardly. Things hit each other, which is governed by laws of the universe, then split by being governed by the laws of the universe. Planets form and die, governed by laws in the universe. It's complex, yes. Not chaotic.

The question is how likely are these laws to form, are they necessary, for example? I'd sooner say these laws of the universe are necessary than a God which is necessary creating laws of the universe which are necessary OR laws of the universe which are contingent which leads to such massive suffering.

I would state this misses the heart of the theory.

There are only two possible beginnings to the inflation.
First one:
The universe was generated from a single point that did not exist, than began to exist.

Second one:
The universe was infinitely eternal in a static single point and something outside of that existence cause the universe to 'bang'.

God is the GCB that is the vastly more plausible than any other possibility.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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6/30/2012 10:24:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/30/2012 9:46:14 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/30/2012 8:16:56 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
The idea of the universe being chaos is one that has pretty much been put to bed. Yes, it is complex: there's a lot of parts involved in it. It kinda is what everything tangible operates in, as well as the laws of physics. And Biology. And Chemistry. It is obviously going to be complex. But is it chaotic? Hardly. Things hit each other, which is governed by laws of the universe, then split by being governed by the laws of the universe. Planets form and die, governed by laws in the universe. It's complex, yes. Not chaotic.

The question is how likely are these laws to form, are they necessary, for example? I'd sooner say these laws of the universe are necessary than a God which is necessary creating laws of the universe which are necessary OR laws of the universe which are contingent which leads to such massive suffering.

I would state this misses the heart of the theory.

There are only two possible beginnings to the inflation.
First one:
The universe was generated from a single point that did not exist, than began to exist.

Second one:
The universe was infinitely eternal in a static single point and something outside of that existence cause the universe to 'bang'.

God is the GCB that is the vastly more plausible than any other possibility.

Or the third option: matter always existed, and itself caused the universe's beginning. As per logic dictates.

Further, any look at probability regarding God starts to fail, because God itself has to transcend probability.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/30/2012 10:35:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/30/2012 9:46:14 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 6/30/2012 8:16:56 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
The idea of the universe being chaos is one that has pretty much been put to bed. Yes, it is complex: there's a lot of parts involved in it. It kinda is what everything tangible operates in, as well as the laws of physics. And Biology. And Chemistry. It is obviously going to be complex. But is it chaotic? Hardly. Things hit each other, which is governed by laws of the universe, then split by being governed by the laws of the universe. Planets form and die, governed by laws in the universe. It's complex, yes. Not chaotic.

The question is how likely are these laws to form, are they necessary, for example? I'd sooner say these laws of the universe are necessary than a God which is necessary creating laws of the universe which are necessary OR laws of the universe which are contingent which leads to such massive suffering.

I would state this misses the heart of the theory.

There are only two possible beginnings to the inflation.
First one:
The universe was generated from a single point that did not exist, than began to exist.

Obviously the point existed, or the universe wouldn't have existed today lol I find it ironic that theists always say you cannot get something from nothing, but then try to support the idea that the universe came from nothing...*Sigh**


Second one:
The universe was infinitely eternal in a static single point and something outside of that existence cause the universe to 'bang'.

God is the GCB that is the vastly more plausible than any other possibility.

If you believe in The Big Bang, you have to