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Sin?

ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/1/2012 12:53:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
An all-powerful, all-knowing god needed blood to wipe out sin? The very sin that he created, and ultimately knew would have resulted? Does this make any sense? If god already knew he would have to wipe out sin, why create the conditions which lead to it to begin with? If god doesn't like "sin" why create it in the first place?
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
K.GKevinGeary
Posts: 32
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7/1/2012 2:25:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well if were talking mainstream gods like christianity, sin occured with eve and adam. However thinking broader lets say life is a test to whether the soul (as enternal) will either go to heaven or hell. Sin is there for the person to be tempted to commit a sin. Therefore enough sins the human soul might be going down the esclator rather than up it. However who knows?
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/1/2012 2:44:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Christian Doctrine teaches the purpose of the blood is that is the source of life.

Satan owns all of humans. We are in his world. Satan is god of this earth. A payment of blood must be paid to Satan to redeem us from the slavery to Satan, who is Sin incarnate.

Hence, Jesus coming to satisfy this debt payment. There is a large doctrine surrounding this Angelic Rebellion.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/1/2012 2:57:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 2:44:15 PM, Gileandos wrote:
Christian Doctrine teaches the purpose of the blood is that is the source of life.

Satan owns all of humans. We are in his world. Satan is god of this earth. A payment of blood must be paid to Satan to redeem us from the slavery to Satan, who is Sin incarnate.

Why?


Hence, Jesus coming to satisfy this debt payment. There is a large doctrine surrounding this Angelic Rebellion.
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/1/2012 3:39:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Christian god doesn't make any sense. Christians assign qualities to it like omniscience, omnipotence, perfection, omnibenevolance ect. While the whole scenario from day one (genesis) and all of the events there after paint the picture of a god that's high on crystal meth.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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7/1/2012 3:47:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 3:39:06 PM, ATHOS wrote:
The Christian god doesn't make any sense. Christians assign qualities to it like omniscience, omnipotence, perfection, omnibenevolance ect. While the whole scenario from day one (genesis) and all of the events there after paint the picture of a god that's high on crystal meth.

The reason the Christian God makes no sense to you is because you are not making an attempt to understand the Christian concept of God. God makes a lot of sense, but you are approaching God from an atheistic presupposition.
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/1/2012 4:10:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@KeytarHero
'The reason the Christian God makes no sense to you is because you are not making an attempt to understand the Christian concept of God. God makes a lot of sense, but you are approaching God from an atheistic presupposition.'

How is it sensible for a god that is supposedly all-knowing to create humans knowing they'll make mistakes and then hold them guilty?

Since god makes a lot of sense to you, maybe you'de like to explain this?
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/1/2012 4:12:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 3:47:01 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 7/1/2012 3:39:06 PM, ATHOS wrote:
The Christian god doesn't make any sense. Christians assign qualities to it like omniscience, omnipotence, perfection, omnibenevolance ect. While the whole scenario from day one (genesis) and all of the events there after paint the picture of a god that's high on crystal meth.

The reason the Christian God makes no sense to you is because you are not making an attempt to understand the Christian concept of God. God makes a lot of sense, but you are approaching God from an atheistic presupposition.

How is it sensible for a god that is supposedly all-knowing to create humans knowing they'll make mistakes and then hold them guilty?

Since god makes a lot of sense to you, maybe you'de like to explain this?
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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7/1/2012 7:57:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 4:12:02 PM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2012 3:47:01 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 7/1/2012 3:39:06 PM, ATHOS wrote:
The Christian god doesn't make any sense. Christians assign qualities to it like omniscience, omnipotence, perfection, omnibenevolance ect. While the whole scenario from day one (genesis) and all of the events there after paint the picture of a god that's high on crystal meth.

The reason the Christian God makes no sense to you is because you are not making an attempt to understand the Christian concept of God. God makes a lot of sense, but you are approaching God from an atheistic presupposition.

How is it sensible for a god that is supposedly all-knowing to create humans knowing they'll make mistakes and then hold them guilty?

Since god makes a lot of sense to you, maybe you'd like to explain this?

God made us that way because that is the only way to give you freewill. The same freewill you have to reject him hence sin. You have that choice. Why would God want creations that do not appreciate or love the God that created them? They do not accept what has been given? Can you not give the choice to have freewill?
TheAsylum
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/1/2012 8:37:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 7:57:29 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 7/1/2012 4:12:02 PM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2012 3:47:01 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 7/1/2012 3:39:06 PM, ATHOS wrote:
The Christian god doesn't make any sense. Christians assign qualities to it like omniscience, omnipotence, perfection, omnibenevolance ect. While the whole scenario from day one (genesis) and all of the events there after paint the picture of a god that's high on crystal meth.

The reason the Christian God makes no sense to you is because you are not making an attempt to understand the Christian concept of God. God makes a lot of sense, but you are approaching God from an atheistic presupposition.

How is it sensible for a god that is supposedly all-knowing to create humans knowing they'll make mistakes and then hold them guilty?

Since god makes a lot of sense to you, maybe you'd like to explain this?

God made us that way because that is the only way to give you freewill. The same freewill you have to reject him hence sin. You have that choice. Why would God want creations that do not appreciate or love the God that created them? They do not accept what has been given? Can you not give the choice to have freewill?

If the christian god is all-knowing, doesn't that negate free will?

So, let me get this straight. God supposedly created me ultimately knowing that I would screw up so he can mete out a punishment? Whether it be an eternity in hell or whatever punishment scenario you subscribe to it doesn't matter. Sorry, but this line of logic still eludes me.

The fact that Christians ascribe 'omniscience' to their god really puts a monkey wrench in the whole system of Christianity. The 'omniscience' aspect conflicts and contradicts with other aspects.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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7/1/2012 11:58:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If the christian god is all-knowing, doesn't that negate free will?

How so? Do you not have freewill?

So, let me get this straight. God supposedly created me ultimately knowing that I would screw up so he can mete out a punishment?

Though if He did know would you rather not of choose for yourself?

Whether it be an eternity in hell or whatever punishment scenario you subscribe to it doesn't matter. Sorry, but this line of logic still eludes me.

This is obvious.

The fact that Christians ascribe 'omniscience' to their god really puts a monkey wrench in the whole system of Christianity. The 'omniscience' aspect conflicts and contradicts with other aspects.

Again how so? How can not God create you knowing the temptation of sin and told you not to sin and you do anyway. How can He not give you freewill for you to choose your own path? If He did not do so would He not be depriving you of that choice? Is it His fault if you do not choose that path?
TheAsylum
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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7/2/2012 12:31:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 4:10:26 PM, ATHOS wrote:
@KeytarHero
'The reason the Christian God makes no sense to you is because you are not making an attempt to understand the Christian concept of God. God makes a lot of sense, but you are approaching God from an atheistic presupposition.'

How is it sensible for a god that is supposedly all-knowing to create humans knowing they'll make mistakes and then hold them guilty?

Since god makes a lot of sense to you, maybe you'de like to explain this?

"How is it sensible for a god that is supposedly all-knowing to create humans knowing they'll make mistakes and then hold them guilty?"

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ I wish someone had thought of this before.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/2/2012 1:15:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 11:58:32 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
If the christian god is all-knowing, doesn't that negate free will?

How so? Do you not have freewill?

So, let me get this straight. God supposedly created me ultimately knowing that I would screw up so he can mete out a punishment?

Though if He did know would you rather not of choose for yourself?

Whether it be an eternity in hell or whatever punishment scenario you subscribe to it doesn't matter. Sorry, but this line of logic still eludes me.

This is obvious.

The fact that Christians ascribe 'omniscience' to their god really puts a monkey wrench in the whole system of Christianity. The 'omniscience' aspect conflicts and contradicts with other aspects.

Again how so? How can not God create you knowing the temptation of sin and told you not to sin and you do anyway. How can He not give you freewill for you to choose your own path? If He did not do so would He not be depriving you of that choice? Is it His fault if you do not choose that path?

'The 'omniscience' aspect conflicts and contradicts with other aspects.'
Again how so?

1. Another aspect of god is 'loving". Yet this omniscient god creates beings knowing full well that they'll screw up and end up getting punished by him. Is this loving or vindictive?

Love and vindictiveness are mutually exclusive.

2. Another aspect of god is 'perfect'. When god created Adam and Eve he already knew he would destroy the world with a flood. How does the flood story and the preceding events that lead up to it reflective of a perfect god?

Perfection and mistakes are mutually exclusive.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/2/2012 1:38:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 2:57:58 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/1/2012 2:44:15 PM, Gileandos wrote:
Christian Doctrine teaches the purpose of the blood is that is the source of life.

Satan owns all of humans. We are in his world. Satan is god of this earth. A payment of blood must be paid to Satan to redeem us from the slavery to Satan, who is Sin incarnate.

Why?

There is more too it, the person actually has to be a Kinsman redeemer. So not only the lifeblood of perfection has to be offered, but that it also has to be offered by a human.

The scenario (like our legal system) is complex
Satan Fell (rebelled).
1/3 of Heaven joined him.
God made man to resolve the Angelic Rebellion.
Adam fell(rebelled).
Adam was over earth. Lost his command. Satan gained it.
Watchers were assigned by God to watch over the God's children. Satan ruled over his.
The Watchers fell. They corrupted the seed of man and the earth.
Michael and the Archangels from the Throne of God were assigned to humanity.
Series of events take place.
For the 'sinners' under Satan's control, there had to be a way to free them. Satan gets em when the fall, God can buy them back. Fairs fair.
Adam's seed carries the stain of sin, into which all men are born into Sin. They default to Satan.
However, if Satan gets em when they Sin, God gets them when they are Holy, but men are not Holy.

So God pays the price, with a perfect human for all humans to give them a path of Holiness, that they must choose.

The price? Life for a dead man. A perfect, divine life for all dead men. The life is in the blood. One man fell (Adam) locked all men into sin, One man's perfect sacrifice for all men to have a way of freedom.

So now the choice is life or death. Rebellion or submission.
Hence, we have Jesus and the Christian Way.

Shew, deep breath.


Hence, Jesus coming to satisfy this debt payment. There is a large doctrine surrounding this Angelic Rebellion.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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7/2/2012 1:55:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago

1. Another aspect of god is 'loving". Yet this omniscient god creates beings knowing full well that they'll screw up and end up getting punished by him. Is this loving or vindictive?

Is it not truly loving to give freewill and you decide?

2. Another aspect of god is 'perfect'. When god created Adam and Eve he already knew he would destroy the world with a flood. How does the flood story and the preceding events that lead up to it reflective of a perfect god?

Again you forget freewill and the cost of it if handled improperly. You again exempt your error and God's perfect love and design and man's eagerness to destroy it.
TheAsylum
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/2/2012 2:30:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 1:55:40 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

1. Another aspect of god is 'loving". Yet this omniscient god creates beings knowing full well that they'll screw up and end up getting punished by him. Is this loving or vindictive?

Is it not truly loving to give freewill and you decide?

2. Another aspect of god is 'perfect'. When god created Adam and Eve he already knew he would destroy the world with a flood. How does the flood story and the preceding events that lead up to it reflective of a perfect god?

Again you forget freewill and the cost of it if handled improperly. You again exempt your error and God's perfect love and design and man's eagerness to destroy it.

'Is it not truly loving to give freewill and you decide?'

No, it is not truly loving. If when he created me, he already knew I would not believe, and he already knew I would be punished by him.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/2/2012 2:41:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 1:38:19 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/1/2012 2:57:58 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/1/2012 2:44:15 PM, Gileandos wrote:
Christian Doctrine teaches the purpose of the blood is that is the source of life.

Satan owns all of humans. We are in his world. Satan is god of this earth. A payment of blood must be paid to Satan to redeem us from the slavery to Satan, who is Sin incarnate.

Why?

There is more too it, the person actually has to be a Kinsman redeemer. So not only the lifeblood of perfection has to be offered, but that it also has to be offered by a human.

The scenario (like our legal system) is complex
Satan Fell (rebelled).
1/3 of Heaven joined him.
God made man to resolve the Angelic Rebellion.
Adam fell(rebelled).
Adam was over earth. Lost his command. Satan gained it.

Sorry, but how does the mechanics of this transition of command work? Upon whose authority did Adam lose command and Satan gain it?

Watchers were assigned by God to watch over the God's children. Satan ruled over his.
The Watchers fell. They corrupted the seed of man and the earth.
Michael and the Archangels from the Throne of God were assigned to humanity.
Series of events take place.
For the 'sinners' under Satan's control, there had to be a way to free them. Satan gets em when the fall, God can buy them back. Fairs fair.

Why wouldn't God just take them? What makes this "fair?"

Adam's seed carries the stain of sin, into which all men are born into Sin. They default to Satan.
However, if Satan gets em when they Sin, God gets them when they are Holy, but men are not Holy.

And why is that the case? Why can't God just get 'em all?



So God pays the price, with a perfect human for all humans to give them a path of Holiness, that they must choose.

The price? Life for a dead man. A perfect, divine life for all dead men. The life is in the blood. One man fell (Adam) locked all men into sin, One man's perfect sacrifice for all men to have a way of freedom.

Who set the price?


So now the choice is life or death. Rebellion or submission.
Hence, we have Jesus and the Christian Way.

Shew, deep breath.

That is certainly a lot of detail regarding what the system is. Not much in the "why" department.



Hence, Jesus coming to satisfy this debt payment. There is a large doctrine surrounding this Angelic Rebellion.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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7/2/2012 3:02:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 12:53:02 PM, ATHOS wrote:
An all-powerful, all-knowing god needed blood to wipe out sin? The very sin that he created, and ultimately knew would have resulted? Does this make any sense? If god already knew he would have to wipe out sin, why create the conditions which lead to it to begin with? If god doesn't like "sin" why create it in the first place?


Doesn't matter; just like the color of a car, has no bearing on its mechanics-- this detail means nothing, and can produce no useable knowledge.

You can ask him yourself one day though.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/3/2012 10:43:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 3:02:01 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:53:02 PM, ATHOS wrote:
An all-powerful, all-knowing god needed blood to wipe out sin? The very sin that he created, and ultimately knew would have resulted? Does this make any sense? If god already knew he would have to wipe out sin, why create the conditions which lead to it to begin with? If god doesn't like "sin" why create it in the first place?


Doesn't matter; just like the color of a car, has no bearing on its mechanics-- this detail means nothing, and can produce no useable knowledge.

You can ask him yourself one day though.

Of course it matters. The very fact that you stated ' Doesn't matter..' is indicative of someone who lacks critical thinking, and demonstrates your "blind faith" for a religion that is highly questionable.

There is no evidence for god anyway, at least not the Christian god (or any other god). When I challenge Christian beliefs, I know I am challenging ideas and concepts. When these ideas contradict they can easily be negated as being something real [1].

[1] http://www.bing.com...
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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7/6/2012 2:58:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 10:43:59 PM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/2/2012 3:02:01 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 7/1/2012 12:53:02 PM, ATHOS wrote:
An all-powerful, all-knowing god needed blood to wipe out sin? The very sin that he created, and ultimately knew would have resulted? Does this make any sense? If god already knew he would have to wipe out sin, why create the conditions which lead to it to begin with? If god doesn't like "sin" why create it in the first place?


Doesn't matter; just like the color of a car, has no bearing on its mechanics-- this detail means nothing, and can produce no useable knowledge.

You can ask him yourself one day though.

Of course it matters. The very fact that you stated ' Doesn't matter..' is indicative of someone who lacks critical thinking, and demonstrates your "blind faith" for a religion that is highly questionable.


Is this supposed to be the better argument?? ^^

"Of course it matters" and "you lack critical thinking"?

How about I lack the patience for pointless pondering. It's like a child playing the "why" game with an adult. However, your kind, seems to ignore the why's for the how's.

How can you even attempt to call my faith blind? Especially when you have no idea of purpose either.

Purpose is the only way you could ever determine whether a system is flawed. How was the universe supposed to work, if you believe the things behind it are so flawed; how can you mock our belief in Christ and his method to save sinners, when you have no idea why that wouldn't be so.

You play it by ear every day. Faith is just as much a part of your life, as it is mine.

There is no evidence for god anyway, at least not the Christian god (or any other god). When I challenge Christian beliefs, I know I am challenging ideas and concepts. When these ideas contradict they can easily be negated as being something real [1].

[1] http://www.bing.com...


You mean there's nothing that convinces you. Don't say there is no evidence, when you can only speak for yourself.

Your challenges are like flies running into a stone wall. Very predictable, and centered in personal appeal. You cannot deny a truth, simply because you don't like it..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.