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Why I Renounced Islam by A. Nazar

Aref
Posts: 1
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7/1/2012 11:17:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Only Muslims who are true believers go to heaven after they die, everybody else from any other religion goes to Hell and burns forever" said Mr. Samadi in Farsi.

This remark was made in a small elementary school in Babolsar, the beautiful city where I was born, located in Northern Iran by the Caspian Sea. Mr. Samadi was my religious studies teacher. I was 12 years old and in the Fifth grade. I raised my hand and asked, "But Mr. Samadi you just said a few minutes ago that God is loving and loves all his believers, why he would send someone that he loves to Hell; like Christians if they believe in God?"

Mr. Samadi quickly turned red, got out of his chair and stomped towards me like he was going to kill me. I knew it was not going to be good and the hair on the back of my neck stood on edge. He came and grabbed my ear and pulled it as hard as he could. He started yelling at me to embarrass me in front of the class and he finished his tirade by hitting me in the head a few times. He said the fact that I questioned Allah made me a sinner and I would go to Hell. He continued to yell but my mind shut down. I was so scared of going to Hell and being burned. At that time, I knew being burned hurts a lot and that you have to go to a hospital where they have a special burn unit section to treat you. I wondered if there were any hospitals in Hell and if there were not, would I have to endure that pain for eternity.

That is how I was introduced to Islam. And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith.

I grew up in an Islamic country where I became more and more aware of the way the clergy abused people in the name of religion. I wondered how people could believe and blindly follow what they were told. I concluded they were either afraid of going to Hell or they were aware that questioning Allah created a hell on earth. I started to read Quran and see if I could find the truth and if there was anything to enlighten me. But the more I read the Quran, the more I disagreed. The more I disagreed, the more I learned the lesson of speaking from your heart in an Islamic environment. I saw men being hanged and women being stoned on the streets in the name of Islam. The more I saw the more I drifted from Islam, religion and anything to do with it.

Since becoming an adult, I do not consider myself a Muslim. I do not participate in religious ceremonies and keep my distance from fanatic Muslims.

As a child, I remember walking by the Babol River and marveling at the beauty. I have many fond memories. I remember sitting on the benches in front of the river and looking at the fishermen with their nets and their small canoes. I remember children like myself swimming in the water. That is the most beautiful memory I have of my hometown.

Because of my attitude toward Islam, I can never return to Iran. I will never sit by the Babol River again.

A Nazar
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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7/1/2012 11:29:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This was a very interesting read.

Thank you for sharing.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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7/1/2012 11:35:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Welcome to debate.org. Where your beliefs will change 5 more times before it puts you in a mental hospital.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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7/1/2012 11:51:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thank you for that read.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/2/2012 12:06:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 11:17:17 PM, Aref wrote:
"Only Muslims who are true believers go to heaven after they die, everybody else from any other religion goes to Hell and burns forever" said Mr. Samadi in Farsi.

This remark was made in a small elementary school in Babolsar, the beautiful city where I was born, located in Northern Iran by the Caspian Sea. Mr. Samadi was my religious studies teacher. I was 12 years old and in the Fifth grade. I raised my hand and asked, "But Mr. Samadi you just said a few minutes ago that God is loving and loves all his believers, why he would send someone that he loves to Hell; like Christians if they believe in God?"

Mr. Samadi quickly turned red, got out of his chair and stomped towards me like he was going to kill me. I knew it was not going to be good and the hair on the back of my neck stood on edge. He came and grabbed my ear and pulled it as hard as he could. He started yelling at me to embarrass me in front of the class and he finished his tirade by hitting me in the head a few times. He said the fact that I questioned Allah made me a sinner and I would go to Hell. He continued to yell but my mind shut down. I was so scared of going to Hell and being burned. At that time, I knew being burned hurts a lot and that you have to go to a hospital where they have a special burn unit section to treat you. I wondered if there were any hospitals in Hell and if there were not, would I have to endure that pain for eternity.

That is how I was introduced to Islam. And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith.

I grew up in an Islamic country where I became more and more aware of the way the clergy abused people in the name of religion. I wondered how people could believe and blindly follow what they were told. I concluded they were either afraid of going to Hell or they were aware that questioning Allah created a hell on earth. I started to read Quran and see if I could find the truth and if there was anything to enlighten me. But the more I read the Quran, the more I disagreed. The more I disagreed, the more I learned the lesson of speaking from your heart in an Islamic environment. I saw men being hanged and women being stoned on the streets in the name of Islam. The more I saw the more I drifted from Islam, religion and anything to do with it.

Since becoming an adult, I do not consider myself a Muslim. I do not participate in religious ceremonies and keep my distance from fanatic Muslims.

As a child, I remember walking by the Babol River and marveling at the beauty. I have many fond memories. I remember sitting on the benches in front of the river and looking at the fishermen with their nets and their small canoes. I remember children like myself swimming in the water. That is the most beautiful memory I have of my hometown.

Because of my attitude toward Islam, I can never return to Iran. I will never sit by the Babol River again.

A Nazar

Powerful.
Nazar is the Arabic word for 'sight' or 'seeing'.

I pray that you will one day see Iran again.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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7/2/2012 12:51:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You see, if an ex-Christian had made something similar, everyone here would be up in arms at how those "radicals" were just that-"radicals"- they just don't understand that the word of the lord is "peace." That's all. They would say you shouldn't let the fringe turn you away from your faith, god, etc.

There aren't very many active Muslims on this site but I have a feeling this is how they would feel about this post. I can think of one DDO member who might even support what that teacher did....
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/2/2012 12:56:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 12:51:56 AM, Oryus wrote:
You see, if an ex-Christian had made something similar, everyone here would be up in arms at how those "radicals" were just that-"radicals"- they just don't understand that the word of the lord is "peace." That's all. They would say you shouldn't let the fringe turn you away from your faith, god, etc.

There aren't very many active Muslims on this site but I have a feeling this is how they would feel about this post. I can think of one DDO member who might even support what that teacher did....

I believe what he is saying is that radical Islam is in control of Iran, thus he cannot go home.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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7/2/2012 12:58:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 12:56:59 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:51:56 AM, Oryus wrote:
You see, if an ex-Christian had made something similar, everyone here would be up in arms at how those "radicals" were just that-"radicals"- they just don't understand that the word of the lord is "peace." That's all. They would say you shouldn't let the fringe turn you away from your faith, god, etc.

There aren't very many active Muslims on this site but I have a feeling this is how they would feel about this post. I can think of one DDO member who might even support what that teacher did....

I believe what he is saying is that radical Islam is in control of Iran, thus he cannot go home.

That, and:

"And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith."
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/2/2012 1:01:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 12:58:01 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:56:59 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:51:56 AM, Oryus wrote:
You see, if an ex-Christian had made something similar, everyone here would be up in arms at how those "radicals" were just that-"radicals"- they just don't understand that the word of the lord is "peace." That's all. They would say you shouldn't let the fringe turn you away from your faith, god, etc.

There aren't very many active Muslims on this site but I have a feeling this is how they would feel about this post. I can think of one DDO member who might even support what that teacher did....

I believe what he is saying is that radical Islam is in control of Iran, thus he cannot go home.

That, and:

"And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith."

I believe he is also stating that radicals are in charge of Islam.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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7/2/2012 1:03:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Of course, it isn't a surprise that Christians would feel uncomfortable with someone renouncing their faith due to, say, the Westboro Baptist Church, because then it might make it seem as if you, a practicing Christian, condone the WBC when you really don't (obviously). However, not many people here are very uncomfortable with someone renouncing their faith in Islam due (at least in part) to extremists because not many people here are Muslim.

And of course, atheists are cool with the renouncing of any religious faith any time. ;)
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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7/2/2012 1:05:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 1:01:55 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:58:01 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:56:59 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:51:56 AM, Oryus wrote:
You see, if an ex-Christian had made something similar, everyone here would be up in arms at how those "radicals" were just that-"radicals"- they just don't understand that the word of the lord is "peace." That's all. They would say you shouldn't let the fringe turn you away from your faith, god, etc.

There aren't very many active Muslims on this site but I have a feeling this is how they would feel about this post. I can think of one DDO member who might even support what that teacher did....

I believe what he is saying is that radical Islam is in control of Iran, thus he cannot go home.

That, and:

"And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith."

I believe he is also stating that radicals are in charge of Islam.

Ok.....
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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7/2/2012 4:13:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 11:17:17 PM, Aref wrote:
"Only Muslims who are true believers go to heaven after they die, everybody else from any other religion goes to Hell and burns forever" said Mr. Samadi in Farsi.

This remark was made in a small elementary school in Babolsar, the beautiful city where I was born, located in Northern Iran by the Caspian Sea. Mr. Samadi was my religious studies teacher. I was 12 years old and in the Fifth grade. I raised my hand and asked, "But Mr. Samadi you just said a few minutes ago that God is loving and loves all his believers, why he would send someone that he loves to Hell; like Christians if they believe in God?"

Mr. Samadi quickly turned red, got out of his chair and stomped towards me like he was going to kill me. I knew it was not going to be good and the hair on the back of my neck stood on edge. He came and grabbed my ear and pulled it as hard as he could. He started yelling at me to embarrass me in front of the class and he finished his tirade by hitting me in the head a few times. He said the fact that I questioned Allah made me a sinner and I would go to Hell. He continued to yell but my mind shut down. I was so scared of going to Hell and being burned. At that time, I knew being burned hurts a lot and that you have to go to a hospital where they have a special burn unit section to treat you. I wondered if there were any hospitals in Hell and if there were not, would I have to endure that pain for eternity.

That is how I was introduced to Islam. And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith.

I grew up in an Islamic country where I became more and more aware of the way the clergy abused people in the name of religion. I wondered how people could believe and blindly follow what they were told. I concluded they were either afraid of going to Hell or they were aware that questioning Allah created a hell on earth. I started to read Quran and see if I could find the truth and if there was anything to enlighten me. But the more I read the Quran, the more I disagreed. The more I disagreed, the more I learned the lesson of speaking from your heart in an Islamic environment. I saw men being hanged and women being stoned on the streets in the name of Islam. The more I saw the more I drifted from Islam, religion and anything to do with it.

Since becoming an adult, I do not consider myself a Muslim. I do not participate in religious ceremonies and keep my distance from fanatic Muslims.

As a child, I remember walking by the Babol River and marveling at the beauty. I have many fond memories. I remember sitting on the benches in front of the river and looking at the fishermen with their nets and their small canoes. I remember children like myself swimming in the water. That is the most beautiful memory I have of my hometown.

Because of my attitude toward Islam, I can never return to Iran. I will never sit by the Babol River again.

A Nazar

Resonse: If your belief in islam changed, not because of anything from the Qur'an or Sunnah, but because of a teacher and clergy men, then perhaps you should ask yourself whether you were ever a muslim to begin with, since it was never a teaching of islam that made you reject it, but the actions of certain individuals.
Clash
Posts: 220
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7/2/2012 6:28:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/1/2012 11:17:17 PM, Aref wrote:
"Only Muslims who are true believers go to heaven after they die, everybody else from any other religion goes to Hell and burns forever" said Mr. Samadi in Farsi.

This remark was made in a small elementary school in Babolsar, the beautiful city where I was born, located in Northern Iran by the Caspian Sea. Mr. Samadi was my religious studies teacher. I was 12 years old and in the Fifth grade. I raised my hand and asked, "But Mr. Samadi you just said a few minutes ago that God is loving and loves all his believers, why he would send someone that he loves to Hell; like Christians if they believe in God?"

Mr. Samadi quickly turned red, got out of his chair and stomped towards me like he was going to kill me. I knew it was not going to be good and the hair on the back of my neck stood on edge. He came and grabbed my ear and pulled it as hard as he could. He started yelling at me to embarrass me in front of the class and he finished his tirade by hitting me in the head a few times. He said the fact that I questioned Allah made me a sinner and I would go to Hell. He continued to yell but my mind shut down. I was so scared of going to Hell and being burned. At that time, I knew being burned hurts a lot and that you have to go to a hospital where they have a special burn unit section to treat you. I wondered if there were any hospitals in Hell and if there were not, would I have to endure that pain for eternity.

That is how I was introduced to Islam. And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith.

I grew up in an Islamic country where I became more and more aware of the way the clergy abused people in the name of religion. I wondered how people could believe and blindly follow what they were told. I concluded they were either afraid of going to Hell or they were aware that questioning Allah created a hell on earth. I started to read Quran and see if I could find the truth and if there was anything to enlighten me. But the more I read the Quran, the more I disagreed. The more I disagreed, the more I learned the lesson of speaking from your heart in an Islamic environment. I saw men being hanged and women being stoned on the streets in the name of Islam. The more I saw the more I drifted from Islam, religion and anything to do with it.

Since becoming an adult, I do not consider myself a Muslim. I do not participate in religious ceremonies and keep my distance from fanatic Muslims.

As a child, I remember walking by the Babol River and marveling at the beauty. I have many fond memories. I remember sitting on the benches in front of the river and looking at the fishermen with their nets and their small canoes. I remember children like myself swimming in the water. That is the most beautiful memory I have of my hometown.

Because of my attitude toward Islam, I can never return to Iran. I will never sit by the Babol River again.

A Nazar

http://www.google.no...
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/2/2012 11:44:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 4:13:26 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/1/2012 11:17:17 PM, Aref wrote:
"Only Muslims who are true believers go to heaven after they die, everybody else from any other religion goes to Hell and burns forever" said Mr. Samadi in Farsi.

This remark was made in a small elementary school in Babolsar, the beautiful city where I was born, located in Northern Iran by the Caspian Sea. Mr. Samadi was my religious studies teacher. I was 12 years old and in the Fifth grade. I raised my hand and asked, "But Mr. Samadi you just said a few minutes ago that God is loving and loves all his believers, why he would send someone that he loves to Hell; like Christians if they believe in God?"

Mr. Samadi quickly turned red, got out of his chair and stomped towards me like he was going to kill me. I knew it was not going to be good and the hair on the back of my neck stood on edge. He came and grabbed my ear and pulled it as hard as he could. He started yelling at me to embarrass me in front of the class and he finished his tirade by hitting me in the head a few times. He said the fact that I questioned Allah made me a sinner and I would go to Hell. He continued to yell but my mind shut down. I was so scared of going to Hell and being burned. At that time, I knew being burned hurts a lot and that you have to go to a hospital where they have a special burn unit section to treat you. I wondered if there were any hospitals in Hell and if there were not, would I have to endure that pain for eternity.

That is how I was introduced to Islam. And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith.

I grew up in an Islamic country where I became more and more aware of the way the clergy abused people in the name of religion. I wondered how people could believe and blindly follow what they were told. I concluded they were either afraid of going to Hell or they were aware that questioning Allah created a hell on earth. I started to read Quran and see if I could find the truth and if there was anything to enlighten me. But the more I read the Quran, the more I disagreed. The more I disagreed, the more I learned the lesson of speaking from your heart in an Islamic environment. I saw men being hanged and women being stoned on the streets in the name of Islam. The more I saw the more I drifted from Islam, religion and anything to do with it.

Since becoming an adult, I do not consider myself a Muslim. I do not participate in religious ceremonies and keep my distance from fanatic Muslims.

As a child, I remember walking by the Babol River and marveling at the beauty. I have many fond memories. I remember sitting on the benches in front of the river and looking at the fishermen with their nets and their small canoes. I remember children like myself swimming in the water. That is the most beautiful memory I have of my hometown.

Because of my attitude toward Islam, I can never return to Iran. I will never sit by the Babol River again.

A Nazar

Resonse: If your belief in islam changed, not because of anything from the Qur'an or Sunnah, but because of a teacher and clergy men, then perhaps you should ask yourself whether you were ever a muslim to begin with, since it was never a teaching of islam that made you reject it, but the actions of certain individuals.

That is a an interesting statement and factually wrong. It would be correct if there were a litany of clergy men that as part of the Religion that did NOT do this. However, Iran is full of them. In fact, they are in Charge. The person who does not do this is the rare individual.

For example, if every Capitalist turned out to be a crooked Oil mogul, we would be well within our rights to implicate Capitalism as complicit.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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7/2/2012 2:10:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 11:44:41 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 4:13:26 AM, Fatihah wrote:

Resonse: If your belief in islam changed, not because of anything from the Qur'an or Sunnah, but because of a teacher and clergy men, then perhaps you should ask yourself whether you were ever a muslim to begin with, since it was never a teaching of islam that made you reject it, but the actions of certain individuals.

That is a an interesting statement and factually wrong. It would be correct if there were a litany of clergy men that as part of the Religion that did NOT do this. However, Iran is full of them. In fact, they are in Charge. The person who does not do this is the rare individual.

For example, if every Capitalist turned out to be a crooked Oil mogul, we would be well within our rights to implicate Capitalism as complicit.

Did I not jut predict this?^

I think I did. I totally did.

But it wasn't simply the clergymen that he rejected Islam. Are you guys reading it?

"That is how I was introduced to Islam. And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith."

"I started to read Quran and see if I could find the truth and if there was anything to enlighten me. But the more I read the Quran, the more I disagreed. The more I disagreed, the more I learned the lesson of speaking from your heart in an Islamic environment."

"The more I saw the more I drifted from Islam, religion and anything to do with it."

Again, the Muslim person believes the only reason faith was turned away from was a poor one- bad people who call themselves Muslim. But that was hardly the only reason.

The Christian also sees this, but they're sort of.. fine with it.

In reality, there is much more to it than, "I didn't like the bad people who call themselves Muslim."
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Aaronroy
Posts: 749
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7/2/2012 3:17:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 1:01:55 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:58:01 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:56:59 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:51:56 AM, Oryus wrote:
You see, if an ex-Christian had made something similar, everyone here would be up in arms at how those "radicals" were just that-"radicals"- they just don't understand that the word of the lord is "peace." That's all. They would say you shouldn't let the fringe turn you away from your faith, god, etc.

There aren't very many active Muslims on this site but I have a feeling this is how they would feel about this post. I can think of one DDO member who might even support what that teacher did....

I believe what he is saying is that radical Islam is in control of Iran, thus he cannot go home.

That, and:

"And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith."

I believe he is also stating that radicals are in charge of Islam.

Radicals is not the appropriate term. Theocrats appear to be a more apt term.
To me, the whole theme of his story that a nation founded upon faith will implode under its own ignorance. The rest of it is just his disagreement with Islam.

on-topic: So what are your current beliefs, Nazar?
turn down for h'what
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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7/2/2012 3:45:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 3:17:13 PM, Aaronroy wrote:
At 7/2/2012 1:01:55 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:58:01 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:56:59 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:51:56 AM, Oryus wrote:
You see, if an ex-Christian had made something similar, everyone here would be up in arms at how those "radicals" were just that-"radicals"- they just don't understand that the word of the lord is "peace." That's all. They would say you shouldn't let the fringe turn you away from your faith, god, etc.

There aren't very many active Muslims on this site but I have a feeling this is how they would feel about this post. I can think of one DDO member who might even support what that teacher did....

I believe what he is saying is that radical Islam is in control of Iran, thus he cannot go home.

That, and:

"And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith."

I believe he is also stating that radicals are in charge of Islam.

Radicals is not the appropriate term. Theocrats appear to be a more apt term.
To me, the whole theme of his story that a nation founded upon faith will implode under its own ignorance. The rest of it is just his disagreement with Islam.

on-topic: So what are your current beliefs, Nazar?

Really? I would agree that they are radical. Radical theocrats, granted, but radicals. I doubt if most Muslims find stoning and hanging people for religious offenses acceptable. Don't you agree?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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7/2/2012 7:22:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 11:44:41 AM, Gileandos wrote:


That is a an interesting statement and factually wrong. It would be correct if there were a litany of clergy men that as part of the Religion that did NOT do this. However, Iran is full of them. In fact, they are in Charge. The person who does not do this is the rare individual.

For example, if every Capitalist turned out to be a crooked Oil mogul, we would be well within our rights to implicate Capitalism as complicit.

Response: To the contrary, your rebuttal is factually wrong. For an ideology is defined by its teachings. So if a religion states something like feed the poor and don't steal and a bunch of people embraced the religion and stole from the poor, then their behavior, no matter how many people, is not a reflection of the religion, since they are clearly going against the actual teaching.

Similarly, islam is based on the teachings of the Qur'an and sunnah. Thus actions that are not based on its teachings is not reflection of the religion, regardless who's in charge.
Aaronroy
Posts: 749
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7/2/2012 10:11:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 3:45:12 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 7/2/2012 3:17:13 PM, Aaronroy wrote:
At 7/2/2012 1:01:55 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:58:01 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:56:59 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:51:56 AM, Oryus wrote:
You see, if an ex-Christian had made something similar, everyone here would be up in arms at how those "radicals" were just that-"radicals"- they just don't understand that the word of the lord is "peace." That's all. They would say you shouldn't let the fringe turn you away from your faith, god, etc.

There aren't very many active Muslims on this site but I have a feeling this is how they would feel about this post. I can think of one DDO member who might even support what that teacher did....

I believe what he is saying is that radical Islam is in control of Iran, thus he cannot go home.

That, and:

"And it was the beginning of many years of questions and doubt and finally a rejection of the Islamic faith."

I believe he is also stating that radicals are in charge of Islam.

Radicals is not the appropriate term. Theocrats appear to be a more apt term.
To me, the whole theme of his story that a nation founded upon faith will implode under its own ignorance. The rest of it is just his disagreement with Islam.

on-topic: So what are your current beliefs, Nazar?

Really? I would agree that they are radical. Radical theocrats, granted, but radicals. I doubt if most Muslims find stoning and hanging people for religious offenses acceptable. Don't you agree?

Not exactly. While not all radicals are theocrats, all theocrats are radicals. Adding radicals on to it is sort of unneeded because it's already implied.
turn down for h'what
Gileandos
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7/2/2012 11:40:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 7:22:08 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/2/2012 11:44:41 AM, Gileandos wrote:


That is a an interesting statement and factually wrong. It would be correct if there were a litany of clergy men that as part of the Religion that did NOT do this. However, Iran is full of them. In fact, they are in Charge. The person who does not do this is the rare individual.

For example, if every Capitalist turned out to be a crooked Oil mogul, we would be well within our rights to implicate Capitalism as complicit.

Response: To the contrary, your rebuttal is factually wrong. For an ideology is defined by its teachings. So if a religion states something like feed the poor and don't steal and a bunch of people embraced the religion and stole from the poor, then their behavior, no matter how many people, is not a reflection of the religion, since they are clearly going against the actual teaching.

Similarly, islam is based on the teachings of the Qur'an and sunnah. Thus actions that are not based on its teachings is not reflection of the religion, regardless who's in charge.

But is that not the issue under discussion within the academic community? What does faith of Islam teach when so very many of the Imam's, the scholars, are extremists? Is not the ideology defined by the majority of its teachers?
Fatihah
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7/3/2012 7:34:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 11:40:02 PM, Gileandos wrote:

But is that not the issue under discussion within the academic community? What does faith of Islam teach when so very many of the Imam's, the scholars, are extremists? Is not the ideology defined by the majority of its teachers?

Response: The teachings of islam are from the Qur'an and Sunnah, thus it is defined by its teachings, not those claiming to be teahers. Once again, if many people say 2+2 is 16, we do not say that it must be the case since many people teach it. No. We would rationally say that those people, no matter how many, are clearly wrong in their teaching and do not know math. Similarly, the religion of islam is defined by what it says, not by what people say it is.
GenesisCreation
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7/3/2012 7:47:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The massive list of comments that call the author to rethink his rejection of Islam have obviously not read the essay.

It was not the teacher that caused him to reject Islam, it was his study of scripture. Did you not see that he studied the Koran and found himself in disagreement? The teacher may have caused him to seek the authority of the scripture but it was the Muslim holy-text that pushed him to denounce his faith.

We could call his decision rash or uneducated if his middle school experience was the singular cause of his rejection. It was not. Take this man's testimony by it's word. He deserves respect for following through on his doubts and researching them. It's called an informed decision.

I pray he makes the same informed decision to read the Gospel.

http://www.desiringgod.org...
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
000ike
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7/3/2012 7:54:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 12:56:59 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 12:51:56 AM, Oryus wrote:
You see, if an ex-Christian had made something similar, everyone here would be up in arms at how those "radicals" were just that-"radicals"- they just don't understand that the word of the lord is "peace." That's all. They would say you shouldn't let the fringe turn you away from your faith, god, etc.

There aren't very many active Muslims on this site but I have a feeling this is how they would feel about this post. I can think of one DDO member who might even support what that teacher did....

I believe what he is saying is that radical Islam is in control of Iran, thus he cannot go home.

There aren't too many differences in what he hates about Islam and the characteristics of Christianity. Both advocate stoning as punishment. Both suppress people under the fear of hell. Both have caused terrorism on this planet. Both have caused wars.

You're agreeing with him simply because its not your religion. If I may distort Shakespeare for a moment: A weed under any other name is just as ugly.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
tBoonePickens
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7/3/2012 10:37:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 7:47:15 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
The massive list of comments that call the author to rethink his rejection of Islam have obviously not read the essay.
I agree.

It was not the teacher that caused him to reject Islam, it was his study of scripture. Did you not see that he studied the Koran and found himself in disagreement? The teacher may have caused him to seek the authority of the scripture but it was the Muslim holy-text that pushed him to denounce his faith.
I got that too. It's disturbing to see how his critics seem to miss this crucial point.

We could call his decision rash or uneducated if his middle school experience was the singular cause of his rejection. It was not. Take this man's testimony by it's word. He deserves respect for following through on his doubts and researching them. It's called an informed decision.
Very well said!

****************************************************

At 7/3/2012 7:34:19 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/2/2012 11:40:02 PM, Gileandos wrote:
But is that not the issue under discussion within the academic community? What does faith of Islam teach when so very many of the Imam's, the scholars, are extremists? Is not the ideology defined by the majority of its teachers?
Response: The teachings of islam are from the Qur'an and Sunnah, thus it is defined by its teachings, not those claiming to be teahers.
This is true; HOWEVER, what can one conclude when a supposed erroneous MAJORITY is unopposed by the supposedly veracious minority? I for one conclude that the minority considers those "extremists" as "not so extreme," as "tolerable," as a "minor nuisance."

Once again, if many people say 2+2 is 16, we do not say that it must be the case since many people teach it. No. We would rationally say that those people, no matter how many, are clearly wrong in their teaching and do not know math. Similarly, the religion of islam is defined by what it says, not by what people say it is.
Yes, but if the MAJORITY were to claim that 2+2 is 16, most if not all mathematicians would denounce the MAJORITY and actively work against them. They would certainly not allow them to be labeled "mathematicians."

The trouble is that the alleged "moderate minority" gets MUCH more worked up about the actions of those non-Muslims that are against the radicals than they do the radicals themselves!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Fatihah
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7/3/2012 12:44:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 10:37:19 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:

This is true; HOWEVER, what can one conclude when a supposed erroneous MAJORITY is unopposed by the supposedly veracious minority? I for one conclude that the minority considers those "extremists" as "not so extreme," as "tolerable," as a "minor nuisance."

Yes, but if the MAJORITY were to claim that 2+2 is 16, most if not all mathematicians would denounce the MAJORITY and actively work against them. They would certainly not allow them to be labeled "mathematicians."

The trouble is that the alleged "moderate minority" gets MUCH more worked up about the actions of those non-Muslims that are against the radicals than they do the radicals themselves!

Response: To the contrary, muslims denounce the actions of extremist, but non-muslims ignore it, and prefer demonstrations from muslims against extremism. Yet muslims need not to form demonstrations when the Qur'an and Sunnah clearly teaches the opposite of extremism. The trouble is non-muslims critique islam, knowing fully well that they've never read islamic scripture in it's entirety, or have done so out of context.
Stephen_Hawkins
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7/3/2012 12:47:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 11:40:02 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/2/2012 7:22:08 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/2/2012 11:44:41 AM, Gileandos wrote:


That is a an interesting statement and factually wrong. It would be correct if there were a litany of clergy men that as part of the Religion that did NOT do this. However, Iran is full of them. In fact, they are in Charge. The person who does not do this is the rare individual.

For example, if every Capitalist turned out to be a crooked Oil mogul, we would be well within our rights to implicate Capitalism as complicit.

Response: To the contrary, your rebuttal is factually wrong. For an ideology is defined by its teachings. So if a religion states something like feed the poor and don't steal and a bunch of people embraced the religion and stole from the poor, then their behavior, no matter how many people, is not a reflection of the religion, since they are clearly going against the actual teaching.

Similarly, islam is based on the teachings of the Qur'an and sunnah. Thus actions that are not based on its teachings is not reflection of the religion, regardless who's in charge.

But is that not the issue under discussion within the academic community? What does faith of Islam teach when so very many of the Imam's, the scholars, are extremists? Is not the ideology defined by the majority of its teachers?

The majority of academics promoting Islam is it is a peaceful liberal idea.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Gileandos
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7/3/2012 1:22:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 7:47:15 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
The massive list of comments that call the author to rethink his rejection of Islam have obviously not read the essay.

It was not the teacher that caused him to reject Islam, it was his study of scripture. Did you not see that he studied the Koran and found himself in disagreement? The teacher may have caused him to seek the authority of the scripture but it was the Muslim holy-text that pushed him to denounce his faith.

We could call his decision rash or uneducated if his middle school experience was the singular cause of his rejection. It was not. Take this man's testimony by it's word. He deserves respect for following through on his doubts and researching them. It's called an informed decision.

I pray he makes the same informed decision to read the Gospel.

http://www.desiringgod.org...

I do not disagree with you that years and study were the ultimate reason for rejection in the OP. I was specifically referencing the fact that his introduction to Islam was the teachers and that he cannot return home to Iran due to the radical teachers in control of the country.
Gileandos
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7/3/2012 1:23:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 1:22:14 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/3/2012 7:47:15 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
The massive list of comments that call the author to rethink his rejection of Islam have obviously not read the essay.

It was not the teacher that caused him to reject Islam, it was his study of scripture. Did you not see that he studied the Koran and found himself in disagreement? The teacher may have caused him to seek the authority of the scripture but it was the Muslim holy-text that pushed him to denounce his faith.

We could call his decision rash or uneducated if his middle school experience was the singular cause of his rejection. It was not. Take this man's testimony by it's word. He deserves respect for following through on his doubts and researching them. It's called an informed decision.

I pray he makes the same informed decision to read the Gospel.

http://www.desiringgod.org...

I do not disagree with you that years and study were the ultimate reason for rejection in the OP. I was specifically referencing the fact that his introduction to Islam was the teachers and that he cannot return home to Iran due to the radical teachers in control of the country.

Of course the reason this is important to me and pertinent is the fact that I left Calvinism for this same reason. The teachers of Calvinism did more to convince of the errors of it than any single factor, though it took years of deep study and questioning that ultimately led me away from such error.