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The Invention of God

Paradox_7
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7/2/2012 4:09:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Something that has never made sense to me, especially if there has never been a God, and if all creatures come from "natural" processes, is: When did the idea of God come about, and how?

Just the thought, of us, humans, and the looong process of evolution; never seeing God, never knowing the idea of God, never needing God-- Inventing this fictional character, sounds very unlikely.

If there was no God, why would humans ever think of such a being? It seems to me, that there would be no theists.

Man would have no reason, no need, no desire, for a God. Everything about us, and our world would be unrecognizeable.

So if you could please. Exlain to me how, when, and why would a purely natural creature with no concept of God, ever make one up?

When, apprx, do you believe this happened?

And, why would they ever do such a thing?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
GeoLaureate8
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7/2/2012 4:30:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In ancient times, extraterrestrial biological entities would descend upon Earth and the Earth's inhabitants considered them divine beings. Then they would interact with man, get involved with politics so rulers started claiming divine right to rule.

After many centuries have passed and extraterrestrials stopped frequenting the Earth, this divine right to rule method no longer worked the same or as well so it became necessary to unify the gods into God to control the people more easily. Constantine was a pagan, but had the idea of one God, one rule.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Wnope
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7/2/2012 4:52:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 4:09:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Something that has never made sense to me, especially if there has never been a God, and if all creatures come from "natural" processes, is: When did the idea of God come about, and how?

Just the thought, of us, humans, and the looong process of evolution; never seeing God, never knowing the idea of God, never needing God-- Inventing this fictional character, sounds very unlikely.

If there was no God, why would humans ever think of such a being? It seems to me, that there would be no theists.

Man would have no reason, no need, no desire, for a God. Everything about us, and our world would be unrecognizeable.

So if you could please. Exlain to me how, when, and why would a purely natural creature with no concept of God, ever make one up?

When, apprx, do you believe this happened?

And, why would they ever do such a thing?

Wanna know how you can generate a religion through natural sociological processes?

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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7/2/2012 4:55:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 4:09:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Something that has never made sense to me, especially if there has never been a God, and if all creatures come from "natural" processes, is: When did the idea of God come about, and how?

Just the thought, of us, humans, and the looong process of evolution; never seeing God, never knowing the idea of God, never needing God-- Inventing this fictional character, sounds very unlikely.

If there was no God, why would humans ever think of such a being? It seems to me, that there would be no theists.

Man would have no reason, no need, no desire, for a God. Everything about us, and our world would be unrecognizeable.

So if you could please. Exlain to me how, when, and why would a purely natural creature with no concept of God, ever make one up?

When, apprx, do you believe this happened?

And, why would they ever do such a thing?

Well, here's the thing. I personally believe in God. However, I have asked myself this question -- if there's a possibility that there's no God, why would be purport to know one?

There are two answers that my knowledge and personal reasoning has led me.

The first is the God of Gaps. For so many reasons that essentially boil down to arrogance and naivete, groups of people have filled gaps in our scientific understanding with mysticism and religion. In this way, man can maintain that they understand everything at any given time, on some level.

The second is essentially a reflection of what we strive to be, based on the role that we play on this planet. That would explain why it coincides with morality. We are essentially the gods of this earth. Everything is under our dominion, and our will shapes the planet.

It could also be a rationale for authority, especially in times of weak allegiance to a governmental body.
000ike
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7/2/2012 4:59:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Religious arguments are pointless, and a vain waste of time. Have you ever heard of a Christian turning Atheist or an Atheist turning Christian because of an argument? Me neither. An argument is a catalyst at best.

People convert by their own personal persuasions. No amount of logic and questioning and appealing will change a person's mind that thinks God is the answer.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/2/2012 5:03:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't buy the whole "religion was our first attempt at understanding the world." That's rubbish. Sure Genesis maybe, but crucifixion, morals, virgin birth, rituals, heaven, vicarious redemption, etc. have nothing to do with how the world works and why things happen.

.
.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tBoonePickens
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7/2/2012 5:04:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Religion: a search for a Mommy/Daddy.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/2/2012 5:05:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:04:56 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Religion: a search for a Mommy/Daddy.

are you a Christian or Atheist?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
tBoonePickens
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7/2/2012 5:09:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:05:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/2/2012 5:04:56 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Religion: a search for a Mommy/Daddy.

are you a Christian or Atheist?
Agnostic-Theist in the form of a Catholic, pourquoi?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/2/2012 5:09:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 4:59:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Religious arguments are pointless, and a vain waste of time. Have you ever heard of a Christian turning Atheist or an Atheist turning Christian because of an argument? Me neither. An argument is a catalyst at best.

People convert by their own personal persuasions. No amount of logic and questioning and appealing will change a person's mind that thinks God is the answer.

You always tell such cool stories but I'm never sure if time permits you to repeat them. BTW I converted to deism based on the modal cosmological argument alone. Just saying.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/2/2012 5:11:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:09:30 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/2/2012 5:05:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/2/2012 5:04:56 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Religion: a search for a Mommy/Daddy.

are you a Christian or Atheist?
Agnostic-Theist in the form of a Catholic, pourquoi?

because your profile said Christian, but many of your comments seem skeptical of religion. I was just curious
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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7/2/2012 5:12:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:11:43 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/2/2012 5:09:30 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/2/2012 5:05:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/2/2012 5:04:56 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Religion: a search for a Mommy/Daddy.

are you a Christian or Atheist?
Agnostic-Theist in the form of a Catholic, pourquoi?

because your profile said Christian, but many of your comments seem skeptical of religion. I was just curious

It's the agnostic part of me acting up. I must keep him in check!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/2/2012 5:14:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:09:51 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/2/2012 4:59:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Religious arguments are pointless, and a vain waste of time. Have you ever heard of a Christian turning Atheist or an Atheist turning Christian because of an argument? Me neither. An argument is a catalyst at best.

People convert by their own personal persuasions. No amount of logic and questioning and appealing will change a person's mind that thinks God is the answer.

You always tell such cool stories but I'm never sure if time permits you to repeat them. BTW I converted to deism based on the modal cosmological argument alone. Just saying.

Please,...don't tell me you actually think that conversion applies to even up to 1% of people? Conversion is a process that's born out of personal sentiments. If we were logic machines, then sure, one argument could cause a devout church-going, god-fearing Christian to abandon decades worth of belief. However, like I say often, we're half emotional creatures.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
bossyburrito
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7/2/2012 5:15:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 4:30:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
In ancient times, extraterrestrial biological entities would descend upon Earth and the Earth's inhabitants considered them divine beings. Then they would interact with man, get involved with politics so rulers started claiming divine right to rule.

After many centuries have passed and extraterrestrials stopped frequenting the Earth, this divine right to rule method no longer worked the same or as well so it became necessary to unify the gods into God to control the people more easily. Constantine was a pagan, but had the idea of one God, one rule.

Hello Geo.
#UnbanTheMadman

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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/2/2012 5:19:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:14:47 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/2/2012 5:09:51 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/2/2012 4:59:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Religious arguments are pointless, and a vain waste of time. Have you ever heard of a Christian turning Atheist or an Atheist turning Christian because of an argument? Me neither. An argument is a catalyst at best.

People convert by their own personal persuasions. No amount of logic and questioning and appealing will change a person's mind that thinks God is the answer.

You always tell such cool stories but I'm never sure if time permits you to repeat them. BTW I converted to deism based on the modal cosmological argument alone. Just saying.

Please,...don't tell me you actually think that conversion applies to even up to 1% of people? Conversion is a process that's born out of personal sentiments. If we were logic machines, then sure, one argument could cause a devout church-going, god-fearing Christian to abandon decades worth of belief. However, like I say often, we're half emotional creatures.

You're missing my point and I should have been clearer. What I'm getting at is that your generalization on to all of humanity is groundless in that there are plenty of instances of people taking well reasoned and impassioned looks at the evidence. Yeah, not everyone approaches the issue that way but no one ever said we did. We're not entirely emotional or entirely logical. Fallbilism baby.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Paradox_7
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7/2/2012 5:22:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 4:59:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Religious arguments are pointless, and a vain waste of time. Have you ever heard of a Christian turning Atheist or an Atheist turning Christian because of an argument? Me neither. An argument is a catalyst at best.

People convert by their own personal persuasions. No amount of logic and questioning and appealing will change a person's mind that thinks God is the answer.


I'm going to respond to everyone accordingly, and I choose you first:

Go f^ck yourself.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/2/2012 5:24:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:22:34 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 7/2/2012 4:59:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Religious arguments are pointless, and a vain waste of time. Have you ever heard of a Christian turning Atheist or an Atheist turning Christian because of an argument? Me neither. An argument is a catalyst at best.

People convert by their own personal persuasions. No amount of logic and questioning and appealing will change a person's mind that thinks God is the answer.


I'm going to respond to everyone accordingly, and I choose you first:

Go f^ck yourself.

How articulate! I really didn't say the comment with any scorn in mind...you're just a resentful person that's offended by everything he disagrees with.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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7/2/2012 5:24:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 4:09:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Something that has never made sense to me, especially if there has never been a God, and if all creatures come from "natural" processes, is: When did the idea of God come about, and how?

Just the thought, of us, humans, and the looong process of evolution; never seeing God, never knowing the idea of God, never needing God-- Inventing this fictional character, sounds very unlikely.

If there was no God, why would humans ever think of such a being? It seems to me, that there would be no theists.

Man would have no reason, no need, no desire, for a God. Everything about us, and our world would be unrecognizeable.

So if you could please. Exlain to me how, when, and why would a purely natural creature with no concept of God, ever make one up?

When, apprx, do you believe this happened?

And, why would they ever do such a thing?

For started, throughout history, using religion to scare people into submission has been one of the most effective ways for leaders to rule over people and get the people to willfully do it. When you throw in concepts like eternal reward and punishment you could use fear mongering and also the promise of eternal happiness if they obey their orders well, to get the people to listen to you. As the famous quote goes, religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

As to why a purely natural creature with no concept of God would ever make one up - for one, you have to understand that most religions arose in a time where nobody had any idea what was going on in the world. Everything about nature was simply miraculous. Demons infested the earth. We lived on a flat planet. The sun revolved around the earth. We didn't know about micro-organisms. We didn't know why some people lived longer than others. Nobody knew any biology, chemistry, physics, history... People were mostly illiterate.

So religion was what our species used to make sense of the world when everything was crazy and confusing and we knew almost nothing about the reality of the world. Humans tend to prefer a junk explanation to no explanation at all.

As to why a God specifically, with all its "omni" attributes - isn't it obvious? We humans are naturally solipsistic. We're self centered. Combine our self-centeredness with how terrifying and unknown everything about reality was to our species at the time, and it makes a lot of sense that something like religion would come up. Because, as Sigmund Freud explains in The Future of an Illusion:

"I think we have prepared the way sufficiently for an answer to both of these questions. It will be found if we turn our attention to the psychical origin of religious ideas. These which are given out as teachings are not precipitates of experience or end results of thinking: they are illusions, fulfillments of the oldest, strongest and most urgent wishes of mankind. The secret of their strength lies in the strength of those wishes.

As we already know, the terrifying impression of helplessness in childhood aroused the need for protection, which was provided by the father; and the recognition that this helplessness lasts throughout life made it necessary to cling to the existence of a father, but this time a more powerful one. Thus the benevolent rule of a divine Providence allays our fears of the dangers of life; the establishment of a moral world-order ensures the fulfillment of the demands of justice, which have so often remained unfulfilled in human civilization; and the prolongation of earthly existence in a future life provides the local and temporal framework in which these wish-fulfillments take place."

So in short, the two biggest reasons are the helplessness we feel once we realize our parents are fallible and so is the world (imagine how much more prominent this helplessness would be if almost everything about the nature of the universe was totally unknown and most people were illiterate); second is the fear of death, which religion answers by providing an after-life. Religion was and is a way of solving the helplessness man feels in the world, of assuring people that justice is always served and goodness always rewarded, and of solving the fear of death.

Also, another quote which illustrates the nature of belief in God - "But you can absolutely understand the desire to believe in something, to support you. Children like to be supervised by adults. That's why children go 'look, no hands' or 'look, I can do this' or 'I'm really good at this.' Because it validates them, it shows them that they are there, that somebody else is watching over them. Grown ups are the same... Because the planet's not gonna miss us, when we've finished fvcking it up and killing each other. So we needed the idea of God to have somebody to miss us, or at least notice that we weren't there anymore."

The point is, religion sprung up in places and ages where the average death age was very low compared to today, women/children dying in childbirth was a regularity, nature seemed to be one big crazy terrifying miracle... Of course we would need the idea of an eternal watchful Father, who loves us and would give us eternal happiness, despite the generally awful standards of living most people experienced on Earth. People don't like to feel that their existences- and everyone had infinitely more of them back then - are ultimately for naught. We want to feel special. Conveniently, religion says that we are all special, that our suffering is not for naught, that an eternal powerful and wise deity loves us and cares about us, and that we can survive death.

I hope this has helped explain some of your questions about the invention of God and the reasons why mankind would invent God(s) in the first place.
jat93
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7/2/2012 5:32:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:24:56 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 7/2/2012 4:09:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Something that has never made sense to me, especially if there has never been a God, and if all creatures come from "natural" processes, is: When did the idea of God come about, and how?

Just the thought, of us, humans, and the looong process of evolution; never seeing God, never knowing the idea of God, never needing God-- Inventing this fictional character, sounds very unlikely.

If there was no God, why would humans ever think of such a being? It seems to me, that there would be no theists.

Man would have no reason, no need, no desire, for a God. Everything about us, and our world would be unrecognizeable.

So if you could please. Exlain to me how, when, and why would a purely natural creature with no concept of God, ever make one up?

When, apprx, do you believe this happened?

And, why would they ever do such a thing?

For started, throughout history, using religion to scare people into submission has been one of the most effective ways for leaders to rule over people and get the people to willfully do it. When you throw in concepts like eternal reward and punishment you could use fear mongering and also the promise of eternal happiness if they obey their orders well, to get the people to listen to you. As the famous quote goes, religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

As to why a purely natural creature with no concept of God would ever make one up - for one, you have to understand that most religions arose in a time where nobody had any idea what was going on in the world. Everything about nature was simply miraculous. Demons infested the earth. We lived on a flat planet. The sun revolved around the earth. We didn't know about micro-organisms. We didn't know why some people lived longer than others. Nobody knew any biology, chemistry, physics, history... People were mostly illiterate.

So religion was what our species used to make sense of the world when everything was crazy and confusing and we knew almost nothing about the reality of the world. Humans tend to prefer a junk explanation to no explanation at all.

As to why a God specifically, with all its "omni" attributes - isn't it obvious? We humans are naturally solipsistic. We're self centered. Combine our self-centeredness with how terrifying and unknown everything about reality was to our species at the time, and it makes a lot of sense that something like religion would come up. Because, as Sigmund Freud explains in The Future of an Illusion:

"I think we have prepared the way sufficiently for an answer to both of these questions. It will be found if we turn our attention to the psychical origin of religious ideas. These which are given out as teachings are not precipitates of experience or end results of thinking: they are illusions, fulfillments of the oldest, strongest and most urgent wishes of mankind. The secret of their strength lies in the strength of those wishes.

As we already know, the terrifying impression of helplessness in childhood aroused the need for protection, which was provided by the father; and the recognition that this helplessness lasts throughout life made it necessary to cling to the existence of a father, but this time a more powerful one. Thus the benevolent rule of a divine Providence allays our fears of the dangers of life; the establishment of a moral world-order ensures the fulfillment of the demands of justice, which have so often remained unfulfilled in human civilization; and the prolongation of earthly existence in a future life provides the local and temporal framework in which these wish-fulfillments take place."

So in short, the two biggest reasons are the helplessness we feel once we realize our parents are fallible and so is the world (imagine how much more prominent this helplessness would be if almost everything about the nature of the universe was totally unknown and most people were illiterate); second is the fear of death, which religion answers by providing an after-life. Religion was and is a way of solving the helplessness man feels in the world, of assuring people that justice is always served and goodness always rewarded, and of solving the fear of death.

Also, another quote which illustrates the nature of belief in God - "But you can absolutely understand the desire to believe in something, to support you. Children like to be supervised by adults. That's why children go 'look, no hands' or 'look, I can do this' or 'I'm really good at this.' Because it validates them, it shows them that they are there, that somebody else is watching over them. Grown ups are the same... Because the planet's not gonna miss us, when we've finished fvcking it up and killing each other. So we needed the idea of God to have somebody to miss us, or at least notice that we weren't there anymore."

The point is, religion sprung up in places and ages where the average death age was very low compared to today, women/children dying in childbirth was a regularity, nature seemed to be one big crazy terrifying miracle... Of course we would need the idea of an eternal watchful Father, who loves us and would give us eternal happiness, despite the generally awful standards of living most people experienced on Earth. People don't like to feel that their existences- and everyone had infinitely more of them back then - are ultimately for naught. We want to feel special. Conveniently, religion says that we are all special, that our suffering is not for naught, that an eternal powerful and wise deity loves us and cares about us, and that we can survive death.

I hope this has helped explain some of your questions about the invention of God and the reasons why mankind would invent God(s) in the first place.

I should also add, on top of all of this, that even if you were totally right, and a purely natural creature with no concept of God would have no reason to ever make one up (though I have provided several reasons why making one up would be psychologically comforting and even beneficial, especially in earlier time periods):

God is not some abstract concept, as you make him seem. You don't just believe in God the creator. If you only believed in that you'd be a deist. You believe in a very specific kind of God who lays out his views and instruction in specific holy texts. There is Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Wotan, Thor, Zeus, etc. These Gods are all different and cannot be simultaneously existent.

So even if there would be no reason for a purely natural creature to just invent the concept of a creator God, this is at best an argument for deism!

You've got a lonnng way to go until you can use this argument to support the kind of God you presumably believe in - on who not only created the world, but cares what we eat, who we sleep with, what you think about, etc.

A lot of the time theists offer "proof" of a creator God, and then act as if their specific religious God, as described above, has been proven. Recall that your argument, which I believe is pretty weak, only applies to deism even if it was totaly correct, given the incompatible and contradictory nature of all the religious Gods.
stubs
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7/2/2012 5:46:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 4:09:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Something that has never made sense to me, especially if there has never been a God, and if all creatures come from "natural" processes, is: When did the idea of God come about, and how?


Can't the same be said about the tooth fairy?

Just the thought, of us, humans, and the looong process of evolution; never seeing God, never knowing the idea of God, never needing God-- Inventing this fictional character, sounds very unlikely.


Can't the same be said about the tooth fairy?

If there was no God, why would humans ever think of such a being? It seems to me, that there would be no theists.

Man would have no reason, no need, no desire, for a God. Everything about us, and our world would be unrecognizeable.

So if you could please. Exlain to me how, when, and why would a purely natural creature with no concept of God, ever make one up?


Can't the same be said about the tooth fairy?

When, apprx, do you believe this happened?

And, why would they ever do such a thing?
Paradox_7
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7/2/2012 5:52:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 4:30:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
In ancient times, extraterrestrial biological entities would descend upon Earth and the Earth's inhabitants considered them divine beings.

Why would they think they were divine.. if they didn't have any idea of what divine even is. Unless these being told commanded that they be worshiped.

Then they would interact with man, get involved with politics so rulers started claiming divine right to rule.

lol.. right. of course. They just called them Gods, but they meant aliens.

After many centuries have passed and extraterrestrials stopped frequenting the Earth, this divine right to rule method no longer worked the same or as well so it became necessary to unify the gods into God to control the people more easily. Constantine was a pagan, but had the idea of one God, one rule.


Lol yeah, not gonna fly pal.

So, the E.T's, came to the earth and taught us order.. but the only way to do so, was to enact a "divine" rule, there was no other way to teach or manage these creatures, other then a completely abstract and unheard of Deity?

Seriously, you must have avoided the part of my post where i question how a race/species, fear or understand something like a God or Diety, and never have any experience or knowledge of what that is?

Now, these people for some reason, were more docile when these "divine" beings they've never thought of are introduced. I supposed you are referring to greek mythology or something..

None of those God's had rules, or guidlines.. they were like marvel super-heros and super-villains. I'm not sure if your very familiar with history, but the only "order" that was prevalent through out the world, was that of the dominating nation (tribe).

None of that makes sense, or coincides with any type of fact.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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7/2/2012 5:55:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:24:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/2/2012 5:22:34 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 7/2/2012 4:59:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Religious arguments are pointless, and a vain waste of time. Have you ever heard of a Christian turning Atheist or an Atheist turning Christian because of an argument? Me neither. An argument is a catalyst at best.

People convert by their own personal persuasions. No amount of logic and questioning and appealing will change a person's mind that thinks God is the answer.


I'm going to respond to everyone accordingly, and I choose you first:

Go f^ck yourself.

How articulate! I really didn't say the comment with any scorn in mind...you're just a resentful person that's offended by everything he disagrees with.


Lmao..

You're clueless.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
MRHumble
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7/2/2012 5:58:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Evidence indicates there is no independently self-sustaining, metabolizing, reproducing life-form which would require any less than 100 proteins ..As just a starting point, consider that many statisticians consider that any occurrence with a chance of happening that is less than one chance out of 10^50, is an occurrence with such a slim a probability that is statistically considered to be zero. (10^50 is the number 1 with 50 zeros after it, and it is spoken: "10 to the 50th power" since I dont have that keyboard button). This appraisal seems fairly reasonable, when you consider that 10^50 is about the number of atoms which make up the planet earth. --So, overcoming one chance out of 10^50 is like marking one specific atom out of the earth, and mixing it in completely, and then someone makes one blind, random selection, which turns out to be that specific marked atom. Most mathematicians and scientists have accepted this statistical standard for many purposes.

However, for our purpose, this statistical criterion is much too small for what we are doing here, considering the size and age of the cosmos. So, we will set a much tougher and ultimate standard, which we will call our "Cosmic Limit" Law of Chance. --We'll establish that limit in the following way:

Since there are 10^84 sub-atomic particles in the known physical cosmos, and

Since there are a maximum of 10^20 interactions (oscillations/cycles) per second between any two of those sub-atomic particles, and

Since there are 10^17 seconds in the supposed age of the cosmos (15 bill. yrs),

. . . if we multiply the above three numbers out, we get the number 10^121. ----So, 10^121 equals the total number of sub-atomic interactions possible since the beginning of the universe (at the "Big Bang").

We could very reasonably let 10^121 be our "Cosmic Limit" ---but just to play it safe and conservative, we'll make it 10,000 times bigger, and say that according to our "Cosmic Limit Law of Chance," any chance that is less than one chance out of 10^125 is considered to be a chance of zero.

Biochemist Harold Morowitz estimated that the "minimum" self-replicating cell would include:

Five proteins required for making of cell-membrane fats and structures;

Eight proteins for a very simplified and basic form of energy metabolism;

Ten proteins required for the production of the nucleotides (building-blocks for making DNA) and for the actual production of DNA; and then, finally,

About eighty proteins as part of an apparatus for the production of all the cell's proteins.

So, the minimal cell would require at least 100 proteins. Morowitz writes: "This is the smallest hypothetical cell that we can envisage within the context of current biochemical thinking. It is almost certainly a lower limit." Morowitz is basically saying, that this simplest proto-cell could not stand to lose even two or three of the 100 proteins described, and still continue to stay alive and reproduce ...otherwise, by definition, it would not consist of the "minimum" of proteins required.
The above situation, is essentially one called "irreducible complexity," In the case of Morowitz's minimal cell (if he is right about what is truly minimal), then even six proteins would not be enough to carry on metabolism to keep the minimal cell alive ---and yet, experimental evidence (from actual proteins analyzed) confirms that the chance of one functional protein assembling by random processes, is one chance out of 10^65, ...and, thus, the chance of two functional proteins occurring together at the same time and in the same place would be one chance out of 10^130 (the product of 10^65 times itself).
If you recall, one chance out of 10^125 is our "Cosmic Limit of Chance" which we calculated. Therefore, even with all the time and matter in the universe since the Big Bang, there is a zero probability that even two properly functional proteins could assemble beside each other in the same place by random processes of chance in nature ...and this is only two proteins of the minimum 100 proteins required for the most basic life-form conceivable.
GeoLaureate8
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7/2/2012 6:09:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:52:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 7/2/2012 4:30:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
In ancient times, extraterrestrial biological entities would descend upon Earth and the Earth's inhabitants considered them divine beings.

Why would they think they were divine.. if they didn't have any idea of what divine even is. Unless these being told commanded that they be worshiped.

Then they would interact with man, get involved with politics so rulers started claiming divine right to rule.

lol.. right. of course. They just called them Gods, but they meant aliens.

After many centuries have passed and extraterrestrials stopped frequenting the Earth, this divine right to rule method no longer worked the same or as well so it became necessary to unify the gods into God to control the people more easily. Constantine was a pagan, but had the idea of one God, one rule.


Lol yeah, not gonna fly pal.

So, the E.T's, came to the earth and taught us order.. but the only way to do so, was to enact a "divine" rule, there was no other way to teach or manage these creatures, other then a completely abstract and unheard of Deity?

Seriously, you must have avoided the part of my post where i question how a race/species, fear or understand something like a God or Diety, and never have any experience or knowledge of what that is?

Now, these people for some reason, were more docile when these "divine" beings they've never thought of are introduced. I supposed you are referring to greek mythology or something..

None of those God's had rules, or guidlines.. they were like marvel super-heros and super-villains. I'm not sure if your very familiar with history, but the only "order" that was prevalent through out the world, was that of the dominating nation (tribe).

"There are very probably alien civilizations that are superhuman, to the point of being god-like in ways that exceed anything a theologian could possibly imagine. Their technical achievements would seem as supernatural to us as ours would seem to a Dark Age peasant transported to the twenty-first century"
-- Richard Dawkins

"It is an intriguing possibility and I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that, if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of [Alien] designer."
-- Richard Dawkins

None of that makes sense, or coincides with any type of fact.

It didn't make sense because you are getting confused after misunderstanding what was said. And if you think it doesn't coincide with fact, do moar research. You don't even know the half of it.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/2/2012 6:17:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
We are beings with intelligence and consciousness so since we are biased towards who we are, we like to think of reality as being founded in an ultimate being with intelligence or consciousness. If it was grounded in something else that didn't have the capacity to care about our well being, it would seem like a very uncomfortable state of affairs for our minds to handle.

Basically, it's not hard to realize why people have believed in a God for all this time, even though he doesn't exist. Theists think that belief in God throughout history actually makes a case for his actual existence. It doesn't, not even in the slightest.
GeoLaureate8
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7/2/2012 6:29:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 6:17:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
We are beings with intelligence and consciousness so since we are biased towards who we are, we like to think of reality as being founded in an ultimate being with intelligence or consciousness. If it was grounded in something else that didn't have the capacity to care about our well being, it would seem like a very uncomfortable state of affairs for our minds to handle.

Basically, it's not hard to realize why people have believed in a God for all this time, even though he doesn't exist. Theists think that belief in God throughout history actually makes a case for his actual existence. It doesn't, not even in the slightest.

Ahhh, the comfort route.

So it comforts humans knowing that we suffer, starve, die, experience pain, but that there is a negligent space daddy doing absolutely nothing about it and if you turn your neck the wrong way he turns you to a pilar of salt or burns you in a furnace for any number of miniscule harmless activities like eating shellfish or dancing by statues?

Ok, makes sense.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Wallstreetatheist
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7/2/2012 6:31:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:32:14 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 7/2/2012 5:24:56 PM, jat93 wrote:

For started, throughout history, using religion to scare people into submission has been one of the most effective ways for leaders to rule over people and get the people to willfully do it. When you throw in concepts like eternal reward and punishment you could use fear mongering and also the promise of eternal happiness if they obey their orders well, to get the people to listen to you. As the famous quote goes, religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

As to why a purely natural creature with no concept of God would ever make one up - for one, you have to understand that most religions arose in a time where nobody had any idea what was going on in the world. Everything about nature was simply miraculous. Demons infested the earth. We lived on a flat planet. The sun revolved around the earth. We didn't know about micro-organisms. We didn't know why some people lived longer than others. Nobody knew any biology, chemistry, physics, history... People were mostly illiterate.

So religion was what our species used to make sense of the world when everything was crazy and confusing and we knew almost nothing about the reality of the world. Humans tend to prefer a junk explanation to no explanation at all.

As to why a God specifically, with all its "omni" attributes - isn't it obvious? We humans are naturally solipsistic. We're self centered. Combine our self-centeredness with how terrifying and unknown everything about reality was to our species at the time, and it makes a lot of sense that something like religion would come up. Because, as Sigmund Freud explains in The Future of an Illusion:

"I think we have prepared the way sufficiently for an answer to both of these questions. It will be found if we turn our attention to the psychical origin of religious ideas. These which are given out as teachings are not precipitates of experience or end results of thinking: they are illusions, fulfillments of the oldest, strongest and most urgent wishes of mankind. The secret of their strength lies in the strength of those wishes.

As we already know, the terrifying impression of helplessness in childhood aroused the need for protection, which was provided by the father; and the recognition that this helplessness lasts throughout life made it necessary to cling to the existence of a father, but this time a more powerful one. Thus the benevolent rule of a divine Providence allays our fears of the dangers of life; the establishment of a moral world-order ensures the fulfillment of the demands of justice, which have so often remained unfulfilled in human civilization; and the prolongation of earthly existence in a future life provides the local and temporal framework in which these wish-fulfillments take place."

So in short, the two biggest reasons are the helplessness we feel once we realize our parents are fallible and so is the world (imagine how much more prominent this helplessness would be if almost everything about the nature of the universe was totally unknown and most people were illiterate); second is the fear of death, which religion answers by providing an after-life. Religion was and is a way of solving the helplessness man feels in the world, of assuring people that justice is always served and goodness always rewarded, and of solving the fear of death.

Also, another quote which illustrates the nature of belief in God - "But you can absolutely understand the desire to believe in something, to support you. Children like to be supervised by adults. That's why children go 'look, no hands' or 'look, I can do this' or 'I'm really good at this.' Because it validates them, it shows them that they are there, that somebody else is watching over them. Grown ups are the same... Because the planet's not gonna miss us, when we've finished fvcking it up and killing each other. So we needed the idea of God to have somebody to miss us, or at least notice that we weren't there anymore."

The point is, religion sprung up in places and ages where the average death age was very low compared to today, women/children dying in childbirth was a regularity, nature seemed to be one big crazy terrifying miracle... Of course we would need the idea of an eternal watchful Father, who loves us and would give us eternal happiness, despite the generally awful standards of living most people experienced on Earth. People don't like to feel that their existences- and everyone had infinitely more of them back then - are ultimately for naught. We want to feel special. Conveniently, religion says that we are all special, that our suffering is not for naught, that an eternal powerful and wise deity loves us and cares about us, and that we can survive death.

I hope this has helped explain some of your questions about the invention of God and the reasons why mankind would invent God(s) in the first place.

I should also add, on top of all of this, that even if you were totally right, and a purely natural creature with no concept of God would have no reason to ever make one up (though I have provided several reasons why making one up would be psychologically comforting and even beneficial, especially in earlier time periods):

God is not some abstract concept, as you make him seem. You don't just believe in God the creator. If you only believed in that you'd be a deist. You believe in a very specific kind of God who lays out his views and instruction in specific holy texts. There is Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Wotan, Thor, Zeus, etc. These Gods are all different and cannot be simultaneously existent.

So even if there would be no reason for a purely natural creature to just invent the concept of a creator God, this is at best an argument for deism!

You've got a lonnng way to go until you can use this argument to support the kind of God you presumably believe in - on who not only created the world, but cares what we eat, who we sleep with, what you think about, etc.

A lot of the time theists offer "proof" of a creator God, and then act as if their specific religious God, as described above, has been proven. Recall that your argument, which I believe is pretty weak, only applies to deism even if it was totaly correct, given the incompatible and contradictory nature of all the religious Gods.

Best post yet ^
jat93 always puts great thought and effort into his posts.
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Paradox_7
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7/2/2012 6:44:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 5:32:14 PM, jat93 wrote:
I should also add, on top of all of this, that even if you were totally right, and a purely natural creature with no concept of God would have no reason to ever make one up (though I have provided several reasons why making one up would be psychologically comforting and even beneficial, especially in earlier time periods):

Exactly. But not only that.. we wouldn't be the same either.

God is not some abstract concept, as you make him seem. You don't just believe in God the creator. If you only believed in that you'd be a deist. You believe in a very specific kind of God who lays out his views and instruction in specific holy texts. There is Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Wotan, Thor, Zeus, etc. These Gods are all different and cannot be simultaneously existent.

Besides the point. Just like most of your post. Before we get into which God you believe in, we must figure out how a species of Chimpanzees, evolved into a creature that needs a God??

There is no ground or reason for religion even being a plausible option. Everyone makes is seem like man believing in God is something ancient and uneducated man would think makes more sense.. but how do you figure that? it makes more sense to me that ancient man would ignore the idea of God, not embrace it, or rely on it.

So even if there would be no reason for a purely natural creature to just invent the concept of a creator God, this is at best an argument for deism!

Doesn't matter.. not talking about Christianity; yet ;)

You've got a lonnng way to go until you can use this argument to support the kind of God you presumably believe in - on who not only created the world, but cares what we eat, who we sleep with, what you think about, etc.

Above^
A lot of the time theists offer "proof" of a creator God, and then act as if their specific religious God, as described above, has been proven. Recall that your argument, which I believe is pretty weak, only applies to deism even if it was totaly correct, given the incompatible and contradictory nature of all the religious Gods.


That's great; deism makes more sense then atheism.

Not the point.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.