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christianity? It's just a story.

ATHOS
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7/2/2012 11:33:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Christians, have you ever heard of the "Hero's Journey" also known as a monomyth? Stories such as "StarWars", "Road Warrior" and "The Wizard of Oz" follow this basic pattern. Oh, and also another story,...."Christianity",...it's just another myth.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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7/2/2012 11:37:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 11:33:14 PM, ATHOS wrote:
Christians, have you ever heard of the "Hero's Journey" also known as a monomyth? Stories such as "StarWars", "Road Warrior" and "The Wizard of Oz" follow this basic pattern. Oh, and also another story,...."Christianity",...it's just another myth.

What proof you have? None?
TheAsylum
ATHOS
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7/3/2012 12:41:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 11:37:48 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 7/2/2012 11:33:14 PM, ATHOS wrote:
Christians, have you ever heard of the "Hero's Journey" also known as a monomyth? Stories such as "StarWars", "Road Warrior" and "The Wizard of Oz" follow this basic pattern. Oh, and also another story,...."Christianity",...it's just another myth.

What proof you have? None?

Jesus might have existed. Concepts like the "virgin birth" and the idea that he died for our sins is myth. He probably was crucified on a wooden pole, but not for the reasons Christians believe.To base a whole religion on the concept of a god that demands sacrifice, the same god that is claimed to have everything is an obvious contradiction. If a god has everything why would it require a sacrifice? Simple. It wouldn't. The most absurd thing about it is that god is the ultimate source of sin, when the concept of "omniscience" is applied.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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7/3/2012 1:21:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jesus might have existed. Concepts like the "virgin birth" and the idea that he died for our sins is myth. He probably was crucified on a wooden pole, but not for the reasons Christians believe.To base a whole religion on the concept of a god that demands sacrifice, the same god that is claimed to have everything is an obvious contradiction. If a god has everything why would it require a sacrifice? Simple. It wouldn't. The most absurd thing about it is that god is the ultimate source of sin, when the concept of "omniscience" is applied.

What I thought no evidence mere assertion. Jesus did exist. What evidence do you have that the Virgin birth is a myth? What evidence do you have that Jesus was not crucified for what Christians believe? The sacrifice is not for God, it is for man, to cleanse himself from sin in the sight of the Lord. Again God needs no sacrifice, man does to cleanse himself. Why would God make everyone and everything do as He wants without freewill? Is that just?
TheAsylum
Gileandos
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7/3/2012 1:35:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/2/2012 11:33:14 PM, ATHOS wrote:
Christians, have you ever heard of the "Hero's Journey" also known as a monomyth? Stories such as "StarWars", "Road Warrior" and "The Wizard of Oz" follow this basic pattern. Oh, and also another story,...."Christianity",...it's just another myth.

Really. That is the best you have? your complaint... its just another myth.
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/3/2012 1:40:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 1:21:05 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Jesus might have existed. Concepts like the "virgin birth" and the idea that he died for our sins is myth. He probably was crucified on a wooden pole, but not for the reasons Christians believe.To base a whole religion on the concept of a god that demands sacrifice, the same god that is claimed to have everything is an obvious contradiction. If a god has everything why would it require a sacrifice? Simple. It wouldn't. The most absurd thing about it is that god is the ultimate source of sin, when the concept of "omniscience" is applied.

What I thought no evidence mere assertion. Jesus did exist. What evidence do you have that the Virgin birth is a myth? What evidence do you have that Jesus was not crucified for what Christians believe? The sacrifice is not for God, it is for man, to cleanse himself from sin in the sight of the Lord. Again God needs no sacrifice, man does to cleanse himself. Why would God make everyone and everything do as He wants without freewill? Is that just?

'What evidence do you have that the Virgin birth is a myth'

Negative assertions are the default state, as they are passive. Negative assertions require no proof, no maintenance, hence they are true whether or not you explicitly state them.

Logically, if an idea, concept or story contains contradictions it can be used as evidence to negate said idea, concept or story.

A virgin birth? It contradicts with what we now know about human biology.

Even if parthenogenesis was possible with humans, "Jesus" would have been female- a biological fact.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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7/3/2012 1:49:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
How is Star Wars like the Jesus story? I mean sure, there is a big "I am your father" reveal in both. But does Harrison Ford bang Jesus' sister?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Stephen_Hawkins
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7/3/2012 1:51:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 1:49:03 AM, bluesteel wrote:
How is Star Wars like the Jesus story? I mean sure, there is a big "I am your father" reveal in both. But does Harrison Ford bang Jesus' sister?

Yes. Also, planets get blown up in the Bible. You just haven't been reading it properly. When you read it with an open heart and a fanboy shirt, you'll see it.
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bluesteel
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7/3/2012 1:52:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Athos, we all know what really happened. Mary cheated on Joseph and then instead of admitting it, claimed God impregnated her. Classic move.

"We didn't even...you know... how are you pregnant?"

"Um, I wasn't with anyone...uh...the Holy Spirit came to me and said I am going to have God's baby. And he wants you to raise it for him."

"Oh ok, that's cool then."
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
ATHOS
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7/3/2012 2:00:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 1:49:03 AM, bluesteel wrote:
How is Star Wars like the Jesus story? I mean sure, there is a big "I am your father" reveal in both. But does Harrison Ford bang Jesus' sister?

They both have similar themes. The conflict of "good vs evil". In the "StarWars" monomyth, Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) would be the hero.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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7/3/2012 8:06:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The problem with your argument is that you believe all stories that follow this "monomyth" pattern are exclusively fictional.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
bossyburrito
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7/3/2012 8:18:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 1:49:03 AM, bluesteel wrote:
How is Star Wars like the Jesus story? I mean sure, there is a big "I am your father" reveal in both. But does Harrison Ford bang Jesus' sister?

Yup. Awesome scene dude.
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ATHOS
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7/3/2012 9:42:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 8:06:42 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The problem with your argument is that you believe all stories that follow this "monomyth" pattern are exclusively fictional.

The topic is "Christianity", and yes, I believe it's a myth. Like I said before, If a story contains contradictions it can be used as evidence to negate it.

A 'virgin birth" contradicts with what we now know about human biology. If Mary was parthenogenesis Jesus would have been female- biological fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that). But, Christians believe that an omnipotent, compassionate and loving god chose jesus/or manifested himself as Jesus as a blood sacrifice to defeat sin. This whole concept is a contradiction- how?

Well, an infinitely powerful god wouldn't have to go through such extreme measures to defeat something that ultimately he himself created.

Did the biblical god create sin? -yes

God is proclaimed to be omniscient, therefore he ultimately knew upon creating mankind sin would be the result.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
OberHerr
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7/3/2012 9:50:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 2:00:33 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/3/2012 1:49:03 AM, bluesteel wrote:
How is Star Wars like the Jesus story? I mean sure, there is a big "I am your father" reveal in both. But does Harrison Ford bang Jesus' sister?

They both have similar themes. The conflict of "good vs evil". In the "StarWars" monomyth, Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) would be the hero.

Using that logic......just about ever story ever made with a vague Good vs. Evil plot is like that...........
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ATHOS
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7/3/2012 10:06:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 9:50:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 7/3/2012 2:00:33 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/3/2012 1:49:03 AM, bluesteel wrote:
How is Star Wars like the Jesus story? I mean sure, there is a big "I am your father" reveal in both. But does Harrison Ford bang Jesus' sister?

They both have similar themes. The conflict of "good vs evil". In the "StarWars" monomyth, Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) would be the hero.

Using that logic......just about ever story ever made with a vague Good vs. Evil plot is like that...........

Yes, providing the story has a central character assuming the role of a "hero", and defeating evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
Nur-Ab-Sal
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7/4/2012 1:25:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 9:42:14 PM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/3/2012 8:06:42 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The problem with your argument is that you believe all stories that follow this "monomyth" pattern are exclusively fictional.

The topic is "Christianity", and yes, I believe it's a myth. Like I said before, If a story contains contradictions it can be used as evidence to negate it.

A 'virgin birth" contradicts with what we now know about human biology. If Mary was parthenogenesis Jesus would have been female- biological fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that). But, Christians believe that an omnipotent, compassionate and loving god chose jesus/or manifested himself as Jesus as a blood sacrifice to defeat sin. This whole concept is a contradiction- how?

Well, an infinitely powerful god wouldn't have to go through such extreme measures to defeat something that ultimately he himself created.

Did the biblical god create sin? -yes

God is proclaimed to be omniscient, therefore he ultimately knew upon creating mankind sin would be the result.

Yeah, absolutely none of that is relevant to your "monomyth" argument. You were arguing that Christianity (more precisely, the story of Christ) is a myth based on narrative patterns found in fictional work, not on contradictions found in its doctrine.

Try again.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/4/2012 4:39:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 1:25:39 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2012 9:42:14 PM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/3/2012 8:06:42 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The problem with your argument is that you believe all stories that follow this "monomyth" pattern are exclusively fictional.

The topic is "Christianity", and yes, I believe it's a myth. Like I said before, If a story contains contradictions it can be used as evidence to negate it.

A 'virgin birth" contradicts with what we now know about human biology. If Mary was parthenogenesis Jesus would have been female- biological fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that). But, Christians believe that an omnipotent, compassionate and loving god chose jesus/or manifested himself as Jesus as a blood sacrifice to defeat sin. This whole concept is a contradiction- how?

Well, an infinitely powerful god wouldn't have to go through such extreme measures to defeat something that ultimately he himself created.

Did the biblical god create sin? -yes

God is proclaimed to be omniscient, therefore he ultimately knew upon creating mankind sin would be the result.


Yeah, absolutely none of that is relevant to your "monomyth" argument. You were arguing that Christianity (more precisely, the story of Christ) is a myth based on narrative patterns found in fictional work, not on contradictions found in its doctrine.

Try again.

I have never claimed "The story of Christ" is a myth. I even conceded to his existence:

'Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that).'

The topic clearly states "Christianity".

Isn't Christianity based on its doctrine?
I would say yes.

Isn't "virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins" a fundamental part of Christian doctrine?
I would say yes.

Would Christianity still be Christianity without the concepts of: "virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins"?
I would say no.

Can a person rightfully call them self a "Christian" without accepting the concepts of:
"virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins"?
I would say no.

Seems like you're making a straw man out of my arguement. When I posted "Christianity", perhaps I should have also stated the word "doctrine".
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/4/2012 4:49:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 4:39:09 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/4/2012 1:25:39 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2012 9:42:14 PM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/3/2012 8:06:42 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The problem with your argument is that you believe all stories that follow this "monomyth" pattern are exclusively fictional.

The topic is "Christianity", and yes, I believe it's a myth. Like I said before, If a story contains contradictions it can be used as evidence to negate it.

A 'virgin birth" contradicts with what we now know about human biology. If Mary was parthenogenesis Jesus would have been female- biological fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that). But, Christians believe that an omnipotent, compassionate and loving god chose jesus/or manifested himself as Jesus as a blood sacrifice to defeat sin. This whole concept is a contradiction- how?

Well, an infinitely powerful god wouldn't have to go through such extreme measures to defeat something that ultimately he himself created.

Did the biblical god create sin? -yes

God is proclaimed to be omniscient, therefore he ultimately knew upon creating mankind sin would be the result.


Yeah, absolutely none of that is relevant to your "monomyth" argument. You were arguing that Christianity (more precisely, the story of Christ) is a myth based on narrative patterns found in fictional work, not on contradictions found in its doctrine.

Try again.

I have never claimed "The story of Christ" is a myth. I even conceded to his existence:

'Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that).'

The topic clearly states "Christianity".

Isn't Christianity based on its doctrine?
I would say yes.

Isn't "virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins" a fundamental part of Christian doctrine?
I would say yes.

Would Christianity still be Christianity without the concepts of: "virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins"?
I would say no.

Can a person rightfully call them self a "Christian" without accepting the concepts of:
"virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins"?
I would say no.

Seems like you're making a straw man out of my arguement. When I posted "Christianity", perhaps I should have also stated the word "doctrine".
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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7/4/2012 8:27:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 4:39:09 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/4/2012 1:25:39 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2012 9:42:14 PM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/3/2012 8:06:42 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The problem with your argument is that you believe all stories that follow this "monomyth" pattern are exclusively fictional.

The topic is "Christianity", and yes, I believe it's a myth. Like I said before, If a story contains contradictions it can be used as evidence to negate it.

A 'virgin birth" contradicts with what we now know about human biology. If Mary was parthenogenesis Jesus would have been female- biological fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that). But, Christians believe that an omnipotent, compassionate and loving god chose jesus/or manifested himself as Jesus as a blood sacrifice to defeat sin. This whole concept is a contradiction- how?

Well, an infinitely powerful god wouldn't have to go through such extreme measures to defeat something that ultimately he himself created.

Did the biblical god create sin? -yes

God is proclaimed to be omniscient, therefore he ultimately knew upon creating mankind sin would be the result.


Yeah, absolutely none of that is relevant to your "monomyth" argument. You were arguing that Christianity (more precisely, the story of Christ) is a myth based on narrative patterns found in fictional work, not on contradictions found in its doctrine.

Try again.

I have never claimed "The story of Christ" is a myth. I even conceded to his existence:

'Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that).'

The topic clearly states "Christianity".

Isn't Christianity based on its doctrine?
I would say yes.

Isn't "virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins" a fundamental part of Christian doctrine?
I would say yes.

Would Christianity still be Christianity without the concepts of: "virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins"?
I would say no.

Can a person rightfully call them self a "Christian" without accepting the concepts of:
"virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins"?
I would say no.

Seems like you're making a straw man out of my arguement. When I posted "Christianity", perhaps I should have also stated the word "doctrine".

The original post actually says "Oh, and also another story,....'Christianity',...it's just another myth." You were clearly stating that the central story of Christianity, that of the heroic Jesus, was parallel to fictional stories following the same pattern. I'm not attacking a straw man anywhere. If you had believed in Jesus Christ in the original post, you wouldn't have called the Christian story a myth.

You're altering your argument as you're proven wrong.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/4/2012 8:55:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 8:27:24 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/4/2012 4:39:09 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/4/2012 1:25:39 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2012 9:42:14 PM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/3/2012 8:06:42 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The problem with your argument is that you believe all stories that follow this "monomyth" pattern are exclusively fictional.

The topic is "Christianity", and yes, I believe it's a myth. Like I said before, If a story contains contradictions it can be used as evidence to negate it.

A 'virgin birth" contradicts with what we now know about human biology. If Mary was parthenogenesis Jesus would have been female- biological fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that). But, Christians believe that an omnipotent, compassionate and loving god chose jesus/or manifested himself as Jesus as a blood sacrifice to defeat sin. This whole concept is a contradiction- how?

Well, an infinitely powerful god wouldn't have to go through such extreme measures to defeat something that ultimately he himself created.

Did the biblical god create sin? -yes

God is proclaimed to be omniscient, therefore he ultimately knew upon creating mankind sin would be the result.


Yeah, absolutely none of that is relevant to your "monomyth" argument. You were arguing that Christianity (more precisely, the story of Christ) is a myth based on narrative patterns found in fictional work, not on contradictions found in its doctrine.

Try again.

I have never claimed "The story of Christ" is a myth. I even conceded to his existence:

'Jesus may have been nailed to a wooden pole (I will concede to that).'

The topic clearly states "Christianity".

Isn't Christianity based on its doctrine?
I would say yes.

Isn't "virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins" a fundamental part of Christian doctrine?
I would say yes.

Would Christianity still be Christianity without the concepts of: "virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins"?
I would say no.

Can a person rightfully call them self a "Christian" without accepting the concepts of:
"virgin birth" and "Jesus dying on a cross for the atonement of sins"?
I would say no.

Seems like you're making a straw man out of my arguement. When I posted "Christianity", perhaps I should have also stated the word "doctrine".

The original post actually says "Oh, and also another story,....'Christianity',...it's just another myth." You were clearly stating that the central story of Christianity, that of the heroic Jesus, was parallel to fictional stories following the same pattern. I'm not attacking a straw man anywhere. If you had believed in Jesus Christ in the original post, you wouldn't have called the Christian story a myth.

You're altering your argument as you're proven wrong.

How am I altering my argument? The only one altering it is you. I'm not arguing against the actual existence of Jesus. I'm arguing against the miraculous claims/stories that are attrributed to him. Specifically "virgin birth" and the concept of him dying on a cross as a way of vicariously atoning for peoples sins.

As I am proven wrong?

When have you or anyone else proven me wrong in this discussion? Have any of you proven 'virgin birth"?

A 'virgin birth" contradicts with what we now know about human biology. This should be enough evidence (for anyone with a rational mind) to prove that a 'virgin birth' is impossible.

He may have got nailed to a cross. But getting nailed to a cross to atone for sins, because it was a "god's" plan?

There is no evidence for god.

But, if you do have some I'de love see it.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
Wallstreetatheist
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7/4/2012 11:06:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 1:52:45 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Athos, we all know what really happened. Mary cheated on Joseph and then instead of admitting it, claimed God impregnated her. Classic move.

"We didn't even...you know... how are you pregnant?"

"Um, I wasn't with anyone...uh...the Holy Spirit came to me and said I am going to have God's baby. And he wants you to raise it for him."

"Oh ok, that's cool then."

I thought God really did rape Mary
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