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Someone asked about NDE's

Reason_Alliance
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7/3/2012 5:14:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I remember someone asked me about post-mortem consciousness research & I forgot who & where.. So they don't get away with playing the skeptic, here it is- a massive study underway regarding the post-mortem consciousness:

http://horizonresearch.org...
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/3/2012 6:50:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There was a thread called "Dualism" in philosophy that talked about this very study.

It should be noted that Sam Parnia, the doctor heading the "AWARE Project" (your link) believes that NDEs he has observed can easily be explained as illusions not actual mind-independent activity during brain death.

Here's what I posted in that thread:

Two possible explanations:

1. Consciousness functions even when there is zero brain activity.

2. If a certain combination of mechanisms occur in a particular order (say, vascular shutdown followed by oxygen starvation to the brain followed by raised levels of hormone x and so on and so on), then a memory of conscious thought and/or hallucination is experienced before death or fabricated after the fact with the help of residual sensory input even after brain-death.

For instance, we find that in a particular part of the brain, if stimulated it results in the simulation of an out of body experience. Assume that a particular person suffers oxygen deprivation, but first this area, as opposed to conscious awareness. What might very well result is the appearance of being conscious while outside your own "dead" body (it'd be interesting to know if the cases have any recollection of what their heart monitors sounded like during the out of body experience, since that would indicate whether the fabricated memory formed before brain death or during).

If explanation 2 is correct, we should not expect to see many cases of NDE, and even then we should expect varied specific causal pathways leading to them (oxygen starvation being one of the more popular mechanism).

If explanation 1 is correct, we should overwhelmingly expect to find consciousness functioning during complete brain death. Some of the 90% can be explained away by saying that at a certain threshold (regarding brain activity or structure) conscious activity after brain death results in NDEs with apparent conscious though/memory/etc. But then you're basically just relying on variation of explanation 1 and using consciousness independent of brain activity in an ad hoc manner.

The data fits explanation 2 much better than 1.
Reason_Alliance
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7/3/2012 7:29:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 6:50:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
There was a thread called "Dualism" in philosophy that talked about this very study.

It should be noted that Sam Parnia, the doctor heading the "AWARE Project" (your link) believes that NDEs he has observed can easily be explained as illusions not actual mind-independent activity during brain death.

Yes that's my opinion on the matter too. Although it's my Christian belief there is an afterlife. I just don't think we are to detect it pre-mortem... I don't see how that's possible.

Here's what I posted in that thread:

I don't think this thread was meant for you actually, someone just seemed skeptical about actual research on this, I'm countering that there is.

Two possible explanations:

1. Consciousness functions even when there is zero brain activity.

2. If a certain combination of mechanisms occur in a particular order (say, vascular shutdown followed by oxygen starvation to the brain followed by raised levels of hormone x and so on and so on), then a memory of conscious thought and/or hallucination is experienced before death or fabricated after the fact with the help of residual sensory input even after brain-death.

For instance, we find that in a particular part of the brain, if stimulated it results in the simulation of an out of body experience. Assume that a particular person suffers oxygen deprivation, but first this area, as opposed to conscious awareness. What might very well result is the appearance of being conscious while outside your own "dead" body (it'd be interesting to know if the cases have any recollection of what their heart monitors sounded like during the out of body experience, since that would indicate whether the fabricated memory formed before brain death or during).

If explanation 2 is correct, we should not expect to see many cases of NDE, and even then we should expect varied specific causal pathways leading to them (oxygen starvation being one of the more popular mechanism).

If explanation 1 is correct, we should overwhelmingly expect to find consciousness functioning during complete brain death. Some of the 90% can be explained away by saying that at a certain threshold (regarding brain activity or structure) conscious activity after brain death results in NDEs with apparent conscious though/memory/etc. But then you're basically just relying on variation of explanation 1 and using consciousness independent of brain activity in an ad hoc manner.

The data fits explanation 2 much better than 1.

Thanks for input though.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/3/2012 7:46:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 7:29:12 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 7/3/2012 6:50:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
There was a thread called "Dualism" in philosophy that talked about this very study.

It should be noted that Sam Parnia, the doctor heading the "AWARE Project" (your link) believes that NDEs he has observed can easily be explained as illusions not actual mind-independent activity during brain death.

Yes that's my opinion on the matter too. Although it's my Christian belief there is an afterlife. I just don't think we are to detect it pre-mortem... I don't see how that's possible.

Here's what I posted in that thread:

I don't think this thread was meant for you actually, someone just seemed skeptical about actual research on this, I'm countering that there is.

Two possible explanations:

1. Consciousness functions even when there is zero brain activity.

2. If a certain combination of mechanisms occur in a particular order (say, vascular shutdown followed by oxygen starvation to the brain followed by raised levels of hormone x and so on and so on), then a memory of conscious thought and/or hallucination is experienced before death or fabricated after the fact with the help of residual sensory input even after brain-death.

For instance, we find that in a particular part of the brain, if stimulated it results in the simulation of an out of body experience. Assume that a particular person suffers oxygen deprivation, but first this area, as opposed to conscious awareness. What might very well result is the appearance of being conscious while outside your own "dead" body (it'd be interesting to know if the cases have any recollection of what their heart monitors sounded like during the out of body experience, since that would indicate whether the fabricated memory formed before brain death or during).

If explanation 2 is correct, we should not expect to see many cases of NDE, and even then we should expect varied specific causal pathways leading to them (oxygen starvation being one of the more popular mechanism).

If explanation 1 is correct, we should overwhelmingly expect to find consciousness functioning during complete brain death. Some of the 90% can be explained away by saying that at a certain threshold (regarding brain activity or structure) conscious activity after brain death results in NDEs with apparent conscious though/memory/etc. But then you're basically just relying on variation of explanation 1 and using consciousness independent of brain activity in an ad hoc manner.

The data fits explanation 2 much better than 1.

Thanks for input though.

I'm making sure the full span of arguments are out there for people to evaluate.

There's no argument as to whether NDEs exist. We see them all the time. The question is what happens to create what we later recall as "conscious memories" during or after an NDE.

I am pointing out the author of the empirical study you are linking to stated he explains "brain death" not as something occuring simultaneously all over but instead a "global stroke" which leaves certain parts of the brain on while others turn off. Meaning your consciousness can still be functioning while other parts of your brain stop functioning.

The way they are "testing" it is to put images in the operating room that can only be seen from an angle several feet above the patient.

If an out of body experience related to NDE results in someone reporting the image, we know that "fabricated memory from patient's position" cannot explain out of body experiences. It's a falsifying measure, since not seeing the image doesn't necessarily mean OBEs are illusions. It is noteworthy, however, that after over several hundred cases of NDEs with memory formation, NONE of the OBEs in the study reported the image.
Wnope
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7/3/2012 7:47:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/3/2012 7:31:33 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
Actually I think it was you wnope?

I was questioning the study in the Dualism thread which, ironically, is done by the organization you linked to as a source for NDE evidence.