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stubs
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7/7/2012 12:13:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is my view on hell. I saw some discussion on it in another forum, but I decided just to post it here. If you would like to take the time to read it, let me know what you think. Thanks

Hell—not a place with high thermal output; hell is figuratively described to depict the terrible tragedy of life apart from God. Both (a) darkness and (b) flames, if literal, would cancel each other out. (Isa. 66:24: not literal "worms" in hell). Even Calvin/Luther held that "fiery" passages are metaphorical. "Fire" in Scripture often used to create a serious, reverent tone (Dt. 4:24; Rev. 1:14). Also, hell was prepared for spirit beings (the devil and his angels Mt. 25:41), who can't be physically pained. [1]

The essence of hell: the agony and utter hopelessness of separation from God—to be "away from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thes. 1:9), the greatest loss possible. Mortimer Adler: "The damned in hell do not suffer bodily fires or tortures. Their punishment is pain of loss, not of sense." Usually, mental, psychological, or emotional anguish is far more difficult to handle than physical pain is [2]

Hell—the logical outcome of a life/mindset away from God. Isn't it unjust for God to punish everlastingly for sins committed during a limited period of time on earth? However, discrete, individual sinful acts aren't the issue, but rather a life directed away from God. Hell (or bliss with God) isn't a surprise outcome but naturally flows from how one lived and operated on earth.[3] God's presence would be torture for those who don't desire it.[4] Also, hell is like finally getting a divorce from God. "The punishment fits the crime because the punishment is the crime. Saying no to God means no God."[5]

William Craig: "The orthodox Christian need not hold that every sin merits hell or has hell as its consequence; rather hell is the final consequence (and even just punishment) for those who irrevocably refuse to seek and accept God's forgiveness of their sins. By refusing God's forgiveness they freely separate themselves from God forever. The issue, then, is whether the necessity of making this fundamental decision is too much to ask of a human being."[6]

God doesn't send persons to hell; they resist God's grace (Ac. 7:51) and condemn themselves. In the end, Lewis wrote, there are only two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "Thy will be done."[7] God desires that all be saved (2 Pet. 3:9). The only obstacle to universal salvation is human free will. [8]

While hell is torment (an internal condition), it is not torture (which is imposed from without).

[1] Crockett says that "the precise nature of the resurrected bodies [of the righteous and the wicked] is not always clear" ("The Metaphorical View," in William V. Crockett, ed., Four Views on Hell [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996], 69). Murray Harris notes the "silence of Paul and the other New Testament writers about the nature of that embodiment for the wicked for judgment" ("Resurrection and Immorality in the Pauline Corpus," in Life in the Face of Death, ed. R.N. Longenecker, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1998), 151.

[2] "A Philosopher's Religious Faith," in Philosophers Who Believe, ed. Kelly James Clark, 222.

[3]What of Matt. 7:21-23? Self-proclaimed believers seem surprised that their prophesying, miracle-working, and exorcizing in Jesus' name doesn't rescue them from damnation. But Jesus calls them workers of lawlessness—those who wouldn't at all be comfortable in God's presence.

[4] Michael J. Murray, "Heaven and Hell," in Michael J. Murray, ed., Reason for the Hope Within (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2000), 296.

[5]Peter Kreeft and Ron Tacelli, Handbook of Christian Apologetics (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1994), 300.

[6]"Politically Incorrect Salvation," in Christian Apologetics in the Postmodern World, ed. T.R. Phillips and D.L. Okholm (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1995), 88.

[7]C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters (New York: Macmillan), 38.

[8]See William Lane Craig's excellent debate with Ray Bradley, "Can a Loving God Send People to Hell?" Debate found at http://www.leaderu.com....
twocupcakes
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7/7/2012 12:27:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Interesting. Do you think that all people in hell feel torment? I would rather enjoy not having to worship God for eternity. In this hell, I could be free from that and just chill. Seems a lot better then heaven.

Also, what does it mean to reject God? If someone lives a very good moral life, but has no belief in God is this rejection of God? What about if some evil person believes in God.

Anyway, I rather like this view. It seems like a win-win for atheists and theists. Theists get to do there church stuff forever. And, non-believers are free to just chill and enjoy the afterlife.
Dogknox
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7/7/2012 12:40:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
stubs.. My point...
1)
THE WITCH OF Endor:
1 Samuel 28:12
When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

FACT: The Soul is in a PLACE/STATE after death!!
Samuel was called "UP from Death" by the witch!!

2)
Jesus DESTROYED death on the cross!
Death is NO MORE!!
By his death and rising ALL MEN will live forever!!
The question is where???! UP in heaven or Down in the Lake of Fire!!

Sheep & Goats
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him,
and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

stubs.. Jesus tells the GOATS at their Judgment at the; End Times..(above)
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The Goats go to Eternal fire!!!!!
The Goats go to Satan .. They become ONE with Satan!!

They will curse Jesus!!
They will try all manner of ways to die to end their suffering, but none will work!! Death is NO MORE!! ALL..
All the Goats will end up doing is increasing their suffering!
They will curse Jesus .. It will be Jesus' fault that they can't die!! THEY WILL..
They will never, ever consider it is their own fault that they find themselves in Gehenna!

Alive on earth, they never wanted to die, they wanted to continue forever, feeding their every desire.. NOW
Now in Gehenna all they will think of is "DYING"!!
All will want to die, to end the suffering! Finally...

Finally they will think: "I know; I will enter the Lake of Fire, surely it will end my suffering!" They will step in...
No one will push them in, under their own effort they will step into the lava lake!! They will not die.. they will be caught up with Satan and all his demons BURNING..
Burning as a white hot ball of pure HATE in the center of the lake!!
Becoming ONE WITH SATAN>> Forever!

Dogknox
twocupcakes
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7/7/2012 12:47:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 12:40:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
stubs.. My point...
1)
THE WITCH OF Endor:
1 Samuel 28:12
When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

FACT: The Soul is in a PLACE/STATE after death!!
Samuel was called "UP from Death" by the witch!!

2)
Jesus DESTROYED death on the cross!
Death is NO MORE!!
By his death and rising ALL MEN will live forever!!
The question is where???! UP in heaven or Down in the Lake of Fire!!

Sheep & Goats
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him,
and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

stubs.. Jesus tells the GOATS at their Judgment at the; End Times..(above)
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The Goats go to Eternal fire!!!!!
The Goats go to Satan .. They become ONE with Satan!!

They will curse Jesus!!
They will try all manner of ways to die to end their suffering, but none will work!! Death is NO MORE!! ALL..
All the Goats will end up doing is increasing their suffering!
They will curse Jesus .. It will be Jesus' fault that they can't die!! THEY WILL..
They will never, ever consider it is their own fault that they find themselves in Gehenna!

Alive on earth, they never wanted to die, they wanted to continue forever, feeding their every desire.. NOW
Now in Gehenna all they will think of is "DYING"!!
All will want to die, to end the suffering! Finally...

Finally they will think: "I know; I will enter the Lake of Fire, surely it will end my suffering!" They will step in...
No one will push them in, under their own effort they will step into the lava lake!! They will not die.. they will be caught up with Satan and all his demons BURNING..
Burning as a white hot ball of pure HATE in the center of the lake!!
Becoming ONE WITH SATAN>> Forever!

Dogknox

It is tough to interpret. maybe by "burning" and "fire", they mean it is a good place to be. Like if I say, "Man, Lebron James was on fire last night" it means he was doing good, not actually on fire. Hell can just be a different place. Some people want to worship God forever and they can go to heaven, others just want a place to hangout with no celestial dictator that want to take away free will, they can go to hell.
thett3
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7/7/2012 12:47:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This was my thought on the matter before I rejected the idea entirely.

What purpose would such a place serve? Why not just annihilate those who reject God, or make them suffer for a time and then gain reconciliation?
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: thett was right
stubs
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7/7/2012 12:52:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 12:27:43 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Interesting. Do you think that all people in hell feel torment? I would rather enjoy not having to worship God for eternity. In this hell, I could be free from that and just chill. Seems a lot better then heaven.


I think there is torment, but I do not think it's actually torture. I don't think those in hell will worship God. I don't see any reason to believe there is even repentance in hell. I don't really think it's a place where people "just chill." I admit, I do not know a lot about hell, but I think that whatever exactly it is, heaven will be better. The whole, no pain, no crying ect. thing kind of sold me on that.

Also, what does it mean to reject God? If someone lives a very good moral life, but has no belief in God is this rejection of God? What about if some evil person believes in God.


The bible says there is one sin that God will never forgive and that is blasphemy of the holy spirit. It's basically saying no to Jesus and yes to oneself. I think there are many moral atheists and many immoral theists. The important thing is that we all have done something wrong (and I know this will get into the objective vs. subjective morals and say, "well what really is wrong?" but I am going to try and steer away from that.) and we all deserve punishment. God gave us away to escape this punishment and enjoy eternity with him.

Anyway, I rather like this view. It seems like a win-win for atheists and theists. Theists get to do there church stuff forever. And, non-believers are free to just chill and enjoy the afterlife.

I don't think the non-believers will enjoy the afterlife. I said the emotion, psychological pain is often times even worse than physical pain in the original post.
stubs
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7/7/2012 12:56:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 12:47:56 PM, thett3 wrote:
This was my thought on the matter before I rejected the idea entirely.


Do you reject if for philosophical/emotional reasons or biblical?

What purpose would such a place serve? Why not just annihilate those who reject God, or make them suffer for a time and then gain reconciliation?

I think that God did give us all a chance to enjoy eternity with him and many people say no. When they say no, God gives them what they want. I pointed out in the first post that I think the punishment does fit the crime. I will also admit that I do not like the doctrine of hell. Even C.S Lewis said that if there was one doctrine he could get rid of it would be Hell, but he also said he sees it as fully supported by scripture so he believes it as do I.
thett3
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7/7/2012 1:04:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 12:56:56 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/7/2012 12:47:56 PM, thett3 wrote:
This was my thought on the matter before I rejected the idea entirely.


Do you reject if for philosophical/emotional reasons or biblical?

Both I suppose. I failed to reconcile the idea of eternal punishment with God.

What purpose would such a place serve? Why not just annihilate those who reject God, or make them suffer for a time and then gain reconciliation?

I think that God did give us all a chance to enjoy eternity with him and many people say no.

But some people never even hear of Gods grace. Why does man have to be inherently eternal anyway? Wasn't the original price for sin death? If we have eternal life anyway, than there is no death even if the fate after death is, literally, infinitely worse.

When they say no, God gives them what they want. I pointed out in the first post that I think the punishment does fit the crime. I will also admit that I do not like the doctrine of hell. Even C.S Lewis said that if there was one doctrine he could get rid of it would be Hell, but he also said he sees it as fully supported by scripture so he believes it as do I.

I do not support Biblical inerrancy either so yeah. How is it a crime, exactly? I can see why it keeps someone from getting into Heaven since they are with sin if they dont ask for forgiveness. What I fail to see is why that qualifies them for an eternity of punishment. And surely, God could forgive such a crime eventually, no?

I'm not attacking your view btw, just pointing out some things I see.
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
twocupcakes
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7/7/2012 1:12:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 12:52:32 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/7/2012 12:27:43 PM, twocupcakes wrote:


I think there is torment, but I do not think it's actually torture. I don't think those in hell will worship God. I don't see any reason to believe there is even repentance in hell. I don't really think it's a place where people "just chill." I admit, I do not know a lot about hell, but I think that whatever exactly it is, heaven will be better. The whole, no pain, no crying ect. thing kind of sold me on that.

Cool. I think it just is, to each his own. I feel that same way about heaven. I can't believe people actually will enjoy it. I found church sooooo boring. An hour of church felt like eternity and I hated it. If heaven is anything like church, it is not for me. But I'm sure the religious will enjoy it, just not my thing. I would feel immense pain if I had to worship God forever.


The bible says there is one sin that God will never forgive and that is blasphemy of the holy spirit. It's basically saying no to Jesus and yes to oneself. I think there are many moral atheists and many immoral theists. The important thing is that we all have done something wrong (and I know this will get into the objective vs. subjective morals and say, "well what really is wrong?" but I am going to try and steer away from that.) and we all deserve punishment. God gave us away to escape this punishment and enjoy eternity with him.

I don't see why God is so big on us knowing him. Seems kinda random. If I asked a stranger "Hey, do you know twocupcakes?" and he said no, I would not hold it against him. We haven't really met yet. It would be rude to presume a friendship.

I don't think the non-believers will enjoy the afterlife. I said the emotion, psychological pain is often times even worse than physical pain in the original post.

I'm happy now, without believing in God. I don't see how dying would change that. This God fella, seems kinda narcissistic. Being forced to worship God forever, would cause pain for me. I don't see how I will be caused pain.,
stubs
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7/7/2012 1:18:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 1:04:44 PM, thett3 wrote:

Both I suppose. I failed to reconcile the idea of eternal punishment with God.


Can you tell my why though? Or at least tell me what you disagreed with what I said?


But some people never even hear of Gods grace. Why does man have to be inherently eternal anyway? Wasn't the original price for sin death? If we have eternal life anyway, than there is no death even if the fate after death is, literally, infinitely worse.


I am pretty agnostic about the first part, but have two main possibilities I hold to. 1. They could either be saved like most believe babies are saved. Or God foreknows all who would not accept them even if they were in a place to hear the gospel. That is what's known as middle knowledge. God not only knows what we will or wont do, but also what we would have done given a situation. So using that logic, he could put those that he foreknows would reject him, in places that have not heard about the gospel.



I do not support Biblical inerrancy either so yeah. How is it a crime, exactly? I can see why it keeps someone from getting into Heaven since they are with sin if they dont ask for forgiveness. What I fail to see is why that qualifies them for an eternity of punishment. And surely, God could forgive such a crime eventually, no?


I don't know that there is repentance in hell either way. The eternality of the punishment was addressed in the first post.

I'm not attacking your view btw, just pointing out some things I see.

That's fine (: I appreciate you taking the time to
Kinesis
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7/7/2012 1:24:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 12:56:56 PM, stubs wrote:
I think that God did give us all a chance to enjoy eternity with him and many people say no. When they say no, God gives them what they want.

But this is clearly not what is going on. The people whom Christianity claims are condemned to hell do not believe that Christianity is true and then reject the chance to spend eternity with him. They do not believe that Christianity is true and so are never confronted with the choice at all.
thett3
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7/7/2012 1:24:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 1:18:18 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/7/2012 1:04:44 PM, thett3 wrote:

Both I suppose. I failed to reconcile the idea of eternal punishment with God.


Can you tell my why though? Or at least tell me what you disagreed with what I said?

All sins are finite, so I don't see the point of infinite punishment for them. Now, a non eternal hell is something I could understand but..


But some people never even hear of Gods grace. Why does man have to be inherently eternal anyway? Wasn't the original price for sin death? If we have eternal life anyway, than there is no death even if the fate after death is, literally, infinitely worse.


I am pretty agnostic about the first part, but have two main possibilities I hold to. 1. They could either be saved like most believe babies are saved. Or God foreknows all who would not accept them even if they were in a place to hear the gospel. That is what's known as middle knowledge. God not only knows what we will or wont do, but also what we would have done given a situation. So using that logic, he could put those that he foreknows would reject him, in places that have not heard about the gospel.

But then that means the rejection is inherent in their nature...or instilled into them, and either way it isn't their fault that they rejected the Gospel. But what do I know? I'll never know if hell exists because I never intend to be there



I do not support Biblical inerrancy either so yeah. How is it a crime, exactly? I can see why it keeps someone from getting into Heaven since they are with sin if they dont ask for forgiveness. What I fail to see is why that qualifies them for an eternity of punishment. And surely, God could forgive such a crime eventually, no?


I don't know that there is repentance in hell either way. The eternality of the punishment was addressed in the first post.

I'm not attacking your view btw, just pointing out some things I see.

That's fine (: I appreciate you taking the time to
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
stubs
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7/7/2012 1:32:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 1:12:06 PM, twocupcakes wrote:

Cool. I think it just is, to each his own. I feel that same way about heaven. I can't believe people actually will enjoy it. I found church sooooo boring. An hour of church felt like eternity and I hated it.

I find church boring a lot of the time too. I don't see heaven exactly like church

If heaven is anything like church, it is not for me. But I'm sure the religious will enjoy it, just not my thing. I would feel immense pain if I had to worship God forever.


When my campus pastor was explaining heavens to his kids he said to them, "What was the greatest birthday party you ever went to?" His kids are ages about 3-8. Their eyes lit up and they exclaimed, "Oh it was awesome! There was a moon bounce and all the the pizza we could want." The father said, "Now times that by a million and that's only 1% of how cool heaven will be."

That's how I best picture heaven.


I don't see why God is so big on us knowing him. Seems kinda random. If I asked a stranger "Hey, do you know twocupcakes?" and he said no, I would not hold it against him. We haven't really met yet. It would be rude to presume a friendship.


You're also not God, creator of the universe who sent his perfect son to take the form of a man and die for the sins of all.


I'm happy now, without believing in God. I don't see how dying would change that.

Not believing in God is different from the absence of God.

This God fella, seems kinda narcissistic. Being forced to worship God forever, would cause pain for me. I don't see how I will be caused pain.,

Yes, that is why I think hell is logical. People in hell will not want to worship God forever and it would be torture to them. I just disagree that hell would not be painless for either of us if we were there.
stubs
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7/7/2012 1:35:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 1:24:13 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 7/7/2012 12:56:56 PM, stubs wrote:
I think that God did give us all a chance to enjoy eternity with him and many people say no. When they say no, God gives them what they want.

But this is clearly not what is going on. The people whom Christianity claims are condemned to hell do not believe that Christianity is true and then reject the chance to spend eternity with him. They do not believe that Christianity is true and so are never confronted with the choice at all.

If they don't believe Christianity is true, then they obviously had the choice to believe its validity or not haha
Ren
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7/7/2012 1:36:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 12:27:43 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Interesting. Do you think that all people in hell feel torment? I would rather enjoy not having to worship God for eternity. In this hell, I could be free from that and just chill. Seems a lot better then heaven.

Also, what does it mean to reject God? If someone lives a very good moral life, but has no belief in God is this rejection of God?

No.

What about if some evil person believes in God.

Yes.

Anyway, I rather like this view. It seems like a win-win for atheists and theists. Theists get to do there church stuff forever. And, non-believers are free to just chill and enjoy the afterlife.

Well... that's not really how it works.
stubs
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7/7/2012 1:37:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 1:24:51 PM, thett3 wrote:

All sins are finite, so I don't see the point of infinite punishment for them. Now, a non eternal hell is something I could understand but..


I addressed the eternal part in the first post. It's not the individual finite sins, it is the life directed away from God.


But then that means the rejection is inherent in their nature...or instilled into them, and either way it isn't their fault that they rejected the Gospel. But what do I know? I'll never know if hell exists because I never intend to be there


That only means God knows who will reject or accept him.
Ren
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7/7/2012 1:38:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The OP seems to coincide with my conception of Hell.

I really think Hell is an ideological way to describe something we know intuitively, but reject, because we're inclined to misbehave.

And that is, if we weren't to misbehave, we can achieve a state that is far superior to one in which we do misbehave, as we have now.

I fancy this "happiness" is so elusive to most people, because if this very conception of Hell and foregoing God.
popculturepooka
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7/7/2012 2:12:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you're going adopt this Arminian conception of hell you should at least do something like Jerry Walls (a Protestant philosopher of religion) and accept the existence of purgatory.

http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.amazon.com...

He has the most plausible Arminian conception of the afterlife, hands down. I still think Thomas Talbott and Eric Reitan show massive flaws in his arguments but that's neither here nor there.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Platypus666
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7/7/2012 2:20:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Our beliefs are a reflection of who we are. A belief in hell says a lot about a person. Namely, that they are sadistic.
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7/7/2012 2:24:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 2:20:54 PM, Platypus666 wrote:
Our beliefs are a reflection of who we are. A belief in hell says a lot about a person. Namely, that they are sadistic.

exactly... read my signature
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Paradox_7
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7/7/2012 2:39:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 12:27:43 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Interesting. Do you think that all people in hell feel torment? I would rather enjoy not having to worship God for eternity. In this hell, I could be free from that and just chill. Seems a lot better then heaven.

You sorta just made his point; We'd all choose hell. We all choose this life, over thinking seriously, about the next.. It's all about now, for everyone.

This doesn't fall in line with his theology; but i believe if God did not choose for some-- all would perish in hell.

Also, what does it mean to reject God? If someone lives a very good moral life, but has no belief in God is this rejection of God? What about if some evil person believes in God.

This is stubs main problem (imo). Morality has nothing to do with gaining salvation; morality is simply a by-product. Belief in God is not what saves-- Faith in Christ, is.

Anyway, I rather like this view. It seems like a win-win for atheists and theists. Theists get to do there church stuff forever. And, non-believers are free to just chill and enjoy the afterlife.


That's a neat way of looking at it, and honestly, for all those who are not chosen-- you should enjoy the things the Christian God says are wrong.. cause there is really nothing you can do to change where you are going..

For those who do not feel so sure about that road; ask yourself why.

About the Church stuff, what exactly do you mean? like have bbq's, going to events together (6flags, movies, sports events), congregating and enjoy the Gifts God has given us here; that stuff? lol
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Kinesis
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7/7/2012 3:19:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 1:35:06 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/7/2012 1:24:13 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 7/7/2012 12:56:56 PM, stubs wrote:
I think that God did give us all a chance to enjoy eternity with him and many people say no. When they say no, God gives them what they want.

But this is clearly not what is going on. The people whom Christianity claims are condemned to hell do not believe that Christianity is true and then reject the chance to spend eternity with him. They do not believe that Christianity is true and so are never confronted with the choice at all.

If they don't believe Christianity is true, then they obviously had the choice to believe its validity or not haha

You're misunderstanding. Even under the dubious assumption that one can choose one's beliefs, people aren't choosing to go to hell over heaven. They never even make that decision because they aren't aware that the choice even exists.

Compare: a toddler who chooses to walk across a busy road to get to an ice-cream truck doesn't choose to get run over. She just wasn't aware that making the decision to cross the road would result in that. She isn't aware of all facts. She's a victim of circumstance rather than a free agent.
SarcasticIndeed
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7/7/2012 3:37:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 12:13:00 PM, stubs wrote:
God's presence would be torture for those who don't desire it.

Now, this bugs me. Is God present in some kind here? If he is, then obviously I don't feel torture. I wouldn't really mind being somewhere where God is present.

However, if God is not present here, then how come I don't feel torture? I mean, this is so unsupported.

Therefore, I obviously find this contradictory. And when people say Hell is torture since you're away from God, wouldn't that be torture to someone who believes in God and cannot stand not having his presence? To some, who don't find God's presence very desirable, would it be torment to them?

Really, this kind of hell just bugs me. I may have said no to God on Earth, but why can't I say yes in Hell, if I don't like the place? Can't we accept Jesus in the afterlife? And why would God give up on us just because we gave up here on Earth. Why can't we change our minds in Hell? Or will God just not hear me in Hell? Well, that would be sad, almost like God giving up two early. Why not give us more than one ance?
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
stubs
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7/7/2012 3:41:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 2:12:27 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If you're going adopt this Arminian conception of hell you should at least do something like Jerry Walls (a Protestant philosopher of religion) and accept the existence of purgatory.


Oh I didn't even know it was the Armanian stance. I just kind of read the bible and that's what it seemed like to me and I read a couple books on the doctrine. I don't think purgatory is biblical.
stubs
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7/7/2012 3:44:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 2:20:54 PM, Platypus666 wrote:
Our beliefs are a reflection of who we are. A belief in hell says a lot about a person. Namely, that they are sadistic.

Sadistic is actually getting pleasure from others pains. I would argue to the point of my death that I get no pleasure out of believing people will be in hell for eternity.
popculturepooka
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7/7/2012 3:48:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 3:41:23 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/7/2012 2:12:27 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If you're going adopt this Arminian conception of hell you should at least do something like Jerry Walls (a Protestant philosopher of religion) and accept the existence of purgatory.


Oh I didn't even know it was the Armanian stance. I just kind of read the bible and that's what it seemed like to me and I read a couple books on the doctrine. I don't think purgatory is biblical.

You should check out Jerry Walls books on purgatory. He makes a great case for it coming out of the Evangelical, Protestant, Arminian Christian tradition -- for those so inclined, that is.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
stubs
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7/7/2012 3:52:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 3:19:31 PM, Kinesis wrote:

You're misunderstanding. Even under the dubious assumption that one can choose one's beliefs, people aren't choosing to go to hell over heaven. They never even make that decision because they aren't aware that the choice even exists.


But you would not say that you don't know the choice exists right? Because I have seen you post on other religious threads. So lets just say Christianity is true. You get to God how could you say, "But God, I didn't know the choice existed." yeah you did probably if you have spent time on the religious forums here, talked about religion in person with people ect.

Compare: a toddler who chooses to walk across a busy road to get to an ice-cream truck doesn't choose to get run over. She just wasn't aware that making the decision to cross the road would result in that. She isn't aware of all facts. She's a victim of circumstance rather than a free agent.

I think we are in a good position to know the facts and we are in a good position to know what the result will be.
Cody_Franklin
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7/7/2012 3:53:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would prefer the condition of the unbaptized infant in Limbo--you're eternally separated from God, but in such a way that you never knew God, or knew of him, in the first place. In this way, one is not only immune to judgment, beyond the reach of God and divine Law, but is completely disinterested in the idea of salvation. That sort of existence would, on my view, be accompanied by a profound joy.
stubs
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7/7/2012 3:53:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 3:48:37 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

You should check out Jerry Walls books on purgatory. He makes a great case for it coming out of the Evangelical, Protestant, Arminian Christian tradition -- for those so inclined, that is.

Do you think purgatory is biblical? I just can't find it anywhere in scripture.
Rusty
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7/7/2012 3:55:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/7/2012 3:52:22 PM, stubs wrote:

Compare: a toddler who chooses to walk across a busy road to get to an ice-cream truck doesn't choose to get run over. She just wasn't aware that making the decision to cross the road would result in that. She isn't aware of all facts. She's a victim of circumstance rather than a free agent.

I think we are in a good position to know the facts and we are in a good position to know what the result will be.

Specifically what kind of knowledge, beliefs, whatever, would be required for salvation?