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Does God have to play by the rules?

Republican95
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8/25/2009 6:59:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Let's assume that the Christian God of the Bible exists. His traits include: Omnipresence (he's always around), Omnipotent (he can do anything), Omniscient (he knows everything that there is to know), and perfect.

We can combine this with several "immorality arguments" that atheists like to use. The goal of an "immorality argument" is to try to prove to a theists that if God was all that he is claimed to be, than he doesn't exist because the traits he possesses are self-contradictory.

This is where philosophical arguments like the Problem of Evil and Omnipotence Paradox arise from.

I have one question for anybody who uses these arguments when trying to disprove the existence of a God.

Why does God have to play by the rules?

If God tortures innocent people innocent and claims to be all-loving, who is stopping him? If God says he's all-loving, who are we to argue with him? If God is omnipotent and perfect, than anything God does is percent and falls in-line with his traits.

Also, problems like The Problem of Evil and Omnipotence Paradox don't disprove God, they only reveal we don't know as much about his nature as we would like.
Kleptin
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8/25/2009 7:10:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Well said, I completely agree.

The most we can say is that the existence of God is illogical, not that God does not exist.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
tkubok
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8/25/2009 7:14:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2009 7:10:41 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Well said, I completely agree.

The most we can say is that the existence of God is illogical, not that God does not exist.

Well, actually, doesnt this just show us the sadistic nature of God?

I mean, God couldve said "No need for Jesus to be sacrificed, All of humanity is forgiven". He couldve just forgiven everybody. But what did he do? He sent his son/himself to die. And, although i dont see this as a sacrifice at all, since God is God and he could just make another body, another Jesus in an instant, this still proves how God is sadistic, cruel and evil.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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8/25/2009 7:54:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
We can combine this with several "immorality arguments" that atheists like to use. The goal of an "immorality argument" is to try to prove to a theists that if God was all that he is claimed to be, than he doesn't exist because the traits he possesses are self-contradictory.

I've never heard the term "immorality argument" before. It's more like saying he's logically contradictory.

If God tortures innocent people innocent and claims to be all-loving, who is stopping him? If God says he's all-loving, who are we to argue with him? If God is omnipotent and perfect, than anything God does is percent and falls in-line with his traits.

No. If we are able to reach a conclusion of what all-loving means, and he contradicts this characteristic with his actions, then he is obviously not omnibenevolent and thus, under the specified definitions, nonexistent.

Also, problems like The Problem of Evil and Omnipotence Paradox don't disprove God, they only reveal we don't know as much about his nature as we would like.

There are two versions of the problem of evil - evidential and logical. The logical version demonstrates the impossibility of God's existence - so it does disprove. The evidential shows that it's highly unlikely for him to exist given his characteristics.

The omnipotence paradox, if shown to be true, once again demonstrates the impossibility of his existence. This is why it's called a paradox.
Rezzealaux
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8/25/2009 7:58:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2009 7:54:51 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
There are two versions of the problem of evil - evidential and logical. The logical version demonstrates the impossibility of God's existence - so it does disprove. The evidential shows that it's highly unlikely for him to exist given his characteristics.

The omnipotence paradox, if shown to be true, once again demonstrates the impossibility of his existence. This is why it's called a paradox.

I can't remember who said this, but on some comments section or on some topic on these forums, I said that if God is an internally inconsistent entity then he can't exist due to the law of noncontradiction, and the other guy was like, how do you know the law of noncontradiction is consistent throughout the universe?

I stopped responding there.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Cody_Franklin
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8/25/2009 8:17:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
We can agree that, if the Christian God exists, that he would be Omnipresent/scient/potent; and I wouldn't call him omnibenevolent, but I would call him omniloving, if a term must be used; however, simply because He loves every human being does not mean that he has to erase suffering in the world; personally, I think that suffering exists in the world for two reasons; one, is that, although he is capable of eradicating all evil in the world (and eventually will, after the second coming, and the building of a new Kingdom, if one reads Revelation, I believe), he does not do so because he has given us free will, and, because many of us have strayed from God, evil flourishes in the world; thus, to preserve the gift of free will that He has given us, I do not believe that he necessarily must remove evil from our world; God isn't here to do everything that we ask him to do - one is acting like a spoiled child to say that "God doesn't exist because he hasn't done everything that humanity wants him to do"; after all, a good parent doesn't buy a child every toy or game that he/she wants.

The second reason is, as I briefly pointed out in the above paragraph, God is allowing us to see what it is like to live without his divine love; evil, corrupt, and painful; the suffering in the world, from a Christian standpoint, is something I believe to represent an EXTREMELY mild, watered-down version of the suffering that one will endure in Hell, and we are allowed to experience these earthly horrors so as to be enabled to save ourselves from a worse fate. So, in essence, he doesn't proactively save us from eternal torture; because of the gift of free will, we have only the opportunity to be saved.

And, one thing that strikes me as strange; God specifies in the Bible that we weren't intended to understand the nature of all things; and, God created logic; so, is it not entirely possible that, assuming God's existence, the possibilities of science and logic were purposely limited so that we cannot understand God? After all, if he created logic and reason, it's easily conceivable that he can transcend those understandings.

One other problem that people tend to have with God is that he made the 10 Commandments, and other laws, but he himself breaks them; however, because he was the creator of these laws, and of the people of Earth, he retains the right to punish those who defy divine law, in the same way that the state reserves the right to punish those who defy civil law; in fact, example: A child hits his brother, though this is against the rules set up by his parents; in response to the child breaking the rules, the father spanks the child. So, simply because God sets up rules for humans to follow does not mean that he cannot punish humans for breaking those rules.

And of course, this all relies on the assumption of God's existence, and of his omnipresence/omniscience/omnipotence/omniloving...ness.

I have far more to say, I believe, but I'm really tired of typing, and I have to wake up early tomorrow. So... I think I'll just stop here for now. :D
Cody_Franklin
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8/25/2009 8:23:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Oh... I lied; as far as the omnipotence paradox, I don't really buy into that; I think that omnipotence only covers the range of existing powers; since the power to lift a rock that cannot be lifted is logically impossible (though God doesn't necessarily have to follow human laws of logic), chances are that this power does not exist; if a power doesn't exist, God probably wouldn't possess this ability.

That is, to say, since omnipotent = all-powerful, this implies that God possesses all powers that <b>actually exist</b>; because the omnipotence paradox relies on the faulty assumption that God would possess any ability that you can dream up (even those that probably don't exist), I don't really see it as a valid argument.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/26/2009 4:51:40 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 4:33:58 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/26/2009 4:09:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
You do not understand because you CHOOSE to not to stand under HiS authority.

So, what you're saying is, even though I believe in God, as you claim to do, you're still going to argue with me?

Sure.. if you wanna intellectualise it.. we do not discover the truth.. we do not work out the truth.. we do not learn it:

We KNOW (accept) the Truth and the Truth sets us free.

Knowledge of the Holy One IS understanding: standing under.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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8/26/2009 4:13:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Well, Biblically speaking, God gave us the ability to reason; obviously, he wanted us to use that, one purpose being to solidify our faith in Him; so, the fact is, I'm using the resources given to me by God, while you choose not to do so, accepting merely on blind faith as opposed to solid belief. I've used a bit of reason to attempt to disprove arguments against God, and even though I've tried to tackle some of the most widely used arguments, I find it slightly laughable that you still insist on disagreeing with a person who is on the same side as you are (spiritually, anyway).
Clockwork
Posts: 349
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8/26/2009 7:20:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
My left #%$^@ actually rules over everything and everyone in existence; you all are just of too inferior of an intellect to understand just how it does it.
Felonial Disenfranchisement: http://www.debate.org...
Poverty v. Environmental Protection: http://www.debate.org...
On God and Free Will: http://www.debate.org...
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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8/26/2009 9:10:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2009 7:14:48 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/25/2009 7:10:41 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Well said, I completely agree.

The most we can say is that the existence of God is illogical, not that God does not exist.

Well, actually, doesnt this just show us the sadistic nature of God?

I mean, God couldve said "No need for Jesus to be sacrificed, All of humanity is forgiven". He couldve just forgiven everybody. But what did he do? He sent his son/himself to die. And, although i dont see this as a sacrifice at all, since God is God and he could just make another body, another Jesus in an instant, this still proves how God is sadistic, cruel and evil.

The argument could be made that our process by which we conclude God is sadistic is flawed. You're up against the argument that God defies logic, how can you still use logic to bypass it o.O?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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8/26/2009 11:46:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 9:10:35 PM, Kleptin wrote:
The argument could be made that our process by which we conclude God is sadistic is flawed. You're up against the argument that God defies logic, how can you still use logic to bypass it o.O?

The problem is that once you decide that God doesn't have to follow logic (which is of course, perfectly logical) then you can't say anything more about God. God stops being something we can even talk about. We sure as heck can't worship something that defies all logic. He may be the creator of the universe, but not exist. Or he can we unworshipable. Something that defies all logic is in any case impossible to understand, so whatever we worship, it sure isn't God, but just our flowed and no illogical imagination of God. Any worship of something that defies logic is in fact worshiping a false idol.

And so on.

An illogical god (and therefore any god that is truly all powerful) is a meaningless god.
So prove me wrong, then.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/27/2009 2:48:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 4:13:32 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Well, Biblically speaking, God gave us the ability to reason; obviously, he wanted us to use that, one purpose being to solidify our faith in Him; so, the fact is, I'm using the resources given to me by God, while you choose not to do so, accepting merely on blind faith as opposed to solid belief. I've used a bit of reason to attempt to disprove arguments against God, and even though I've tried to tackle some of the most widely used arguments, I find it slightly laughable that you still insist on disagreeing with a person who is on the same side as you are (spiritually, anyway).

So, in essence, you glorify.. you!
And I glorify the Lord Jesus Christ!

We are fallen.. our logic and our reason is fallen and ANTI-GOD..
DON'T trust it under any circumstances.
The Cross.. the Cross.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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8/27/2009 3:14:04 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/27/2009 2:48:48 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We are fallen.. our logic and our reason is fallen and ANTI-GOD..
DON'T trust it under any circumstances.

In fact, that's very logical. God wants us to worship him, and doesn't apparently want us to use our logic and reasoning, because if we do we will stop worshiping him. The only conclusion is that God sees logic, reasoning and intelligence as evil.

Maybe there is hope for you anyway, DAT...
So prove me wrong, then.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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8/27/2009 4:52:00 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/27/2009 2:48:48 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 4:13:32 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Well, Biblically speaking, God gave us the ability to reason; obviously, he wanted us to use that, one purpose being to solidify our faith in Him; so, the fact is, I'm using the resources given to me by God, while you choose not to do so, accepting merely on blind faith as opposed to solid belief. I've used a bit of reason to attempt to disprove arguments against God, and even though I've tried to tackle some of the most widely used arguments, I find it slightly laughable that you still insist on disagreeing with a person who is on the same side as you are (spiritually, anyway).

So, in essence, you glorify.. you!
And I glorify the Lord Jesus Christ!

We are fallen.. our logic and our reason is fallen and ANTI-GOD..
DON'T trust it under any circumstances.

No, in essence, you're trying to twist what I'm saying.

You haven't even begun to prove why logic and reason is 'anti-God'; I mean, he did give us the ability to reason; we use logic every day, whether we realize it or not. But, I do not want to argue with stubbornness today; therefore, I will just accept that you do not wish to use the tools which God has given you.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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8/27/2009 4:59:16 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 11:46:42 PM, regebro wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:10:35 PM, Kleptin wrote:
The argument could be made that our process by which we conclude God is sadistic is flawed. You're up against the argument that God defies logic, how can you still use logic to bypass it o.O?

The problem is that once you decide that God doesn't have to follow logic (which is of course, perfectly logical) then you can't say anything more about God. God stops being something we can even talk about. We sure as heck can't worship something that defies all logic. He may be the creator of the universe, but not exist. Or he can we unworshipable. Something that defies all logic is in any case impossible to understand, so whatever we worship, it sure isn't God, but just our flowed and no illogical imagination of God. Any worship of something that defies logic is in fact worshiping a false idol.

And so on.

An illogical god (and therefore any god that is truly all powerful) is a meaningless god.

Wow, I never thought of it that way. Excellent response :D I'm going to borrow that.

One last issue though: The directions as to how we worship God and the characteristics of God come from the Bible, which is allegedly divinely inspired. How to bypass that?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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8/27/2009 6:15:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/27/2009 5:12:04 AM, Puck wrote:
It's circular. The bible tells us God exists; God through the bible tells us it is the word of God.

Yes, but introduce the addendum that God works in ways we cannot comprehend XD
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/27/2009 7:39:34 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Not entirely sure what the point you are making is. If you posit he is beyond understanding, then biblical commands detail instructions for X purpose, without revealing intent (you take it on blind faith). Omni traits are anti definitions to begin with anyway, they do not detail limits of action, so action cannot be inferred from them.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/28/2009 2:20:03 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/27/2009 5:12:04 AM, Puck wrote:
It's circular. The bible tells us God exists; God through the bible tells us it is the word of God.

BECAUSE you are beginning from 'God does not exist'..

IF you begin from 'God exists' then the Bible is simply a revelatory documentation of Gods dealing with men.

You remain in your house declaring there is no proof of a world outside whilst REFUSING to open the door.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/28/2009 2:25:08 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/27/2009 4:52:00 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/27/2009 2:48:48 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 4:13:32 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Well, Biblically speaking, God gave us the ability to reason; obviously, he wanted us to use that, one purpose being to solidify our faith in Him; so, the fact is, I'm using the resources given to me by God, while you choose not to do so, accepting merely on blind faith as opposed to solid belief. I've used a bit of reason to attempt to disprove arguments against God, and even though I've tried to tackle some of the most widely used arguments, I find it slightly laughable that you still insist on disagreeing with a person who is on the same side as you are (spiritually, anyway).

So, in essence, you glorify.. you!
And I glorify the Lord Jesus Christ!

We are fallen.. our logic and our reason is fallen and ANTI-GOD..
DON'T trust it under any circumstances.

No, in essence, you're trying to twist what I'm saying.

You haven't even begun to prove why logic and reason is 'anti-God'; I mean, he did give us the ability to reason; we use logic every day, whether we realize it or not. But, I do not want to argue with stubbornness today; therefore, I will just accept that you do not wish to use the tools which God has given you.

There you go again with your 'prove'..
You sound like one of these lost fools..
I don't have to 'prove' what the Bible (that MEANS God) has already declared!
I certainly DO use the 'tools' God has given me: to stay faithful to His Word, and to defend it against ALL and sundry..
I'm sorry if I interrupted you making yourself appear clever: carry on.
The Cross.. the Cross.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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8/28/2009 2:51:43 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/28/2009 2:25:08 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
There you go again with your 'prove'..
You sound like one of these lost fools..
I don't have to 'prove' what the Bible (that MEANS God) has already declared!

Yes you do.

I certainly DO use the 'tools' God has given me: to stay faithful to His Word, and to defend it against ALL and sundry..

Implying that God has not given you intelligence and reasoning. Seems you are more self-aware than suspected.
So prove me wrong, then.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/28/2009 3:16:53 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/28/2009 2:51:43 AM, regebro wrote:
At 8/28/2009 2:25:08 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
There you go again with your 'prove'..
You sound like one of these lost fools..
I don't have to 'prove' what the Bible (that MEANS God) has already declared!

Yes you do.

OH NO I DON'T! (ad infinum ad nauseum)

I certainly DO use the 'tools' God has given me: to stay faithful to His Word, and to defend it against ALL and sundry..

Implying that God has not given you intelligence and reasoning. Seems you are more self-aware than suspected.

If ONLY you'd take the time to 'troll' through the religious forum and see just HOW many wannabees, like you, have failed MISERABLY with this tactic you now employ: namely trying to elicit an emotional response by 'insulting my intelligence' with banal trivialities.. in the Bible it is known as tresspassing and every time I forgive yours, God forgives mine! so CARRY ON!

Now, do you have a serious point or question regarding the logic of Christian belief?
If so, I'd be MORE than happy to help you out..
The Cross.. the Cross.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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8/28/2009 4:05:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/28/2009 3:16:53 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
OH NO I DON'T! (ad infinum ad nauseum)

Then you have to admit that we can't know for sure.

Now, do you have a serious point or question regarding the logic of Christian belief?
If so, I'd be MORE than happy to help you out..

Yes, I do, and no you wouldn't.
So prove me wrong, then.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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8/28/2009 5:18:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/28/2009 2:25:08 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/27/2009 4:52:00 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/27/2009 2:48:48 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 4:13:32 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Well, Biblically speaking, God gave us the ability to reason; obviously, he wanted us to use that, one purpose being to solidify our faith in Him; so, the fact is, I'm using the resources given to me by God, while you choose not to do so, accepting merely on blind faith as opposed to solid belief. I've used a bit of reason to attempt to disprove arguments against God, and even though I've tried to tackle some of the most widely used arguments, I find it slightly laughable that you still insist on disagreeing with a person who is on the same side as you are (spiritually, anyway).

So, in essence, you glorify.. you!
And I glorify the Lord Jesus Christ!

We are fallen.. our logic and our reason is fallen and ANTI-GOD..
DON'T trust it under any circumstances.

No, in essence, you're trying to twist what I'm saying.

You haven't even begun to prove why logic and reason is 'anti-God'; I mean, he did give us the ability to reason; we use logic every day, whether we realize it or not. But, I do not want to argue with stubbornness today; therefore, I will just accept that you do not wish to use the tools which God has given you.

There you go again with your 'prove'..
You sound like one of these lost fools..
I don't have to 'prove' what the Bible (that MEANS God) has already declared!
I certainly DO use the 'tools' God has given me: to stay faithful to His Word, and to defend it against ALL and sundry..
I'm sorry if I interrupted you making yourself appear clever: carry on.

I've never said that you have to prove the Bible to be true; I've only asked you to prove one thing, and let me simplify that for you:

If you can provide me a single Bible verse that specifically lists logic and reason as evil, and as tools of the devil, then I will believe you.

So, really, I'm not even asking you to prove anything; I'm just asking for a single Bible verse; if you're as in-tune with the Lord as you claim to be, this should not be an issue for you.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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8/28/2009 5:19:55 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/28/2009 3:16:53 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/28/2009 2:51:43 AM, regebro wrote:
At 8/28/2009 2:25:08 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

If ONLY you'd take the time to 'troll' through the religious forum and see just HOW many wannabees, like you, have failed MISERABLY with this tactic you now employ: namely trying to elicit an emotional response by 'insulting my intelligence' with banal trivialities.. in the Bible it is known as tresspassing and every time I forgive yours, God forgives mine! so CARRY ON!

Now, do you have a serious point or question regarding the logic of Christian belief?
If so, I'd be MORE than happy to help you out..

the "logic" of Christian belief? According to you, Christian belief has no logic, because logic and reason are apparently evil.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/29/2009 9:07:22 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/28/2009 4:05:29 AM, regebro wrote:
At 8/28/2009 3:16:53 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
OH NO I DON'T! (ad infinum ad nauseum)

Then you have to admit that we can't know for sure.

I know. You not only do not know but you cannot know that I know.
This I also KNOW.

Now, do you have a serious point or question regarding the logic of Christian belief?
If so, I'd be MORE than happy to help you out..

Yes, I do, and no you wouldn't.

Must be why you 'forgot' to ask it!

several thousand fathoms..
The Cross.. the Cross.