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Religion is Irrelevant

JaxsonRaine
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7/8/2012 3:02:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Disclaimer 1: I'm not sayng this is truth. I'm just stating my opinion. I don't believe that you will go to hell for eternity if you disagree, I'm not condemning you, I'm not trying to judge anyone. (Will JaxsonRaine be flamed by zealots from all sides? Stay tuned!)

Disclaimer 2: It's late and I'm in kind of a ticked-off mood and I'm not typing very well. Sorry.

Ok, first off, I believe that God exists, cares about us, and either intervenes in our lives, or set up our existance as a sort of complicated rube-goldberg machine in which we get the 'intervention' He wants us to have when we need/ask for it.

Now, I know there are all sorts of religions saying you have to do X to be saved, if you do Y you will go to hell, and if you don't join church Z and donate you will also go to hell. I also know there are religions that aren't as strict/greedy/condemning.

Personally though, I think they are all a gift from God. I think He made us and purposefully gave us/allowed for all these different viewpoints on religion. First, this gets us discussing and thinking. Second, it gets us growing and learning. Kind of like how building muscle takes work, so does gaining knowledge, wisdom, and faith.

Um, ok, I said faith, and use religion and all that, but I'm not excluding atheists. I'll clarify after I finish getting my main point out.

I think what God cares about, is how we act based on the knowledge/situation we are given. He's not going to condemn people who never heard of Jesus/Allah/Steven Hawking. All He cares about is, are you trying to be a good person. A Christian who tries to follow Christian principles is no different than a Muslim who follows Islam or a whatever else.

Now, for atheists/agnostics, the same principle applies. He only cares if you are trying to be good, trying to better yourself, according to what you know/believe/have been taught.

So yeah. Peace and love everyone.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/8/2012 8:16:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 3:02:44 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Disclaimer 1: I'm not sayng this is truth. I'm just stating my opinion. I don't believe that you will go to hell for eternity if you disagree, I'm not condemning you, I'm not trying to judge anyone. (Will JaxsonRaine be flamed by zealots from all sides? Stay tuned!)

Disclaimer 2: It's late and I'm in kind of a ticked-off mood and I'm not typing very well. Sorry.

Ok, first off, I believe that God exists, cares about us, and either intervenes in our lives, or set up our existance as a sort of complicated rube-goldberg machine in which we get the 'intervention' He wants us to have when we need/ask for it.

Now, I know there are all sorts of religions saying you have to do X to be saved, if you do Y you will go to hell, and if you don't join church Z and donate you will also go to hell. I also know there are religions that aren't as strict/greedy/condemning.

Personally though, I think they are all a gift from God. I think He made us and purposefully gave us/allowed for all these different viewpoints on religion. First, this gets us discussing and thinking. Second, it gets us growing and learning. Kind of like how building muscle takes work, so does gaining knowledge, wisdom, and faith.

Um, ok, I said faith, and use religion and all that, but I'm not excluding atheists. I'll clarify after I finish getting my main point out.

I think what God cares about, is how we act based on the knowledge/situation we are given. He's not going to condemn people who never heard of Jesus/Allah/Steven Hawking. All He cares about is, are you trying to be a good person. A Christian who tries to follow Christian principles is no different than a Muslim who follows Islam or a whatever else.

Now, for atheists/agnostics, the same principle applies. He only cares if you are trying to be good, trying to better yourself, according to what you know/believe/have been taught.

So yeah. Peace and love everyone.

If only religion was that caring and open minded...Unfortunately, it's not. It doesn't matter how good I treat people according to the Christian religion, if I'm not convinced by the arguments for the Christian God's existence, I go to hell for not believing he exists. I could help old ladies walk across the street everyday, genuinely care about my fellow primates, and give all my money to charity and still deserve to feel torment in hell after I die because I don't believe in a particular religion, according to that religion.

You basically, have to go against all Muslim and Christian teachings for your point to make any sense. It doesn't matter how good you are, don't believe in the religion? Have fun in hell...
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/8/2012 8:19:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Your argument was basically, God just wants us to be good. However, modern religion states that you not only do you have to be good, but you have to believe in the particular religion as well.
twocupcakes
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7/8/2012 8:56:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago

I think what God cares about, is how we act based on the knowledge/situation we are given. He's not going to condemn people who never heard of Jesus/Allah/Steven Hawking. All He cares about is, are you trying to be a good person. A Christian who tries to follow Christian principles is no different than a Muslim who follows Islam or a whatever else.


Cool. This view makes more sense. But what about the people that commit atrocious acts, but think these acts are necessary to good Muslim/Christian? Those that suicide bomb believe they are following God, those that stone adulterers believe they are doing good, the Westboro Baptist Church (the God hates faags people) believe they are doing good. According to there "knowledge/situation" they are good, yet it is pretty clear these are bad people.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/8/2012 9:09:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
People who don't try to better themselves, or do things that society deems wrong should not suffer or go to hell either. Environmental and biological factors determine behavior whether we like it or not. We do not have freewill,...and to truly understand what I mean, save your introspection for after you've made a decision, and then recall your mental state leading up to the decision. Was any other way you could have decided given your preceding mental state? Of course not.

The reason why freewill seems so obvious is because we introspect while making the decision,...not after. The latter would be 3rd person objective, the former 1st person subject. You tell me which is more accurate.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
baggins
Posts: 855
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7/8/2012 9:26:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 3:02:44 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Disclaimer 1: I'm not sayng this is truth. I'm just stating my opinion. I don't believe that you will go to hell for eternity if you disagree, I'm not condemning you, I'm not trying to judge anyone. (Will JaxsonRaine be flamed by zealots from all sides? Stay tuned!)

Disclaimer 2: It's late and I'm in kind of a ticked-off mood and I'm not typing very well. Sorry.

Ok, first off, I believe that God exists, cares about us, and either intervenes in our lives, or set up our existance as a sort of complicated rube-goldberg machine in which we get the 'intervention' He wants us to have when we need/ask for it.

Or as Quran says...

The Holy Quran 2:186 - When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way.

Now, I know there are all sorts of religions saying you have to do X to be saved, if you do Y you will go to hell, and if you don't join church Z and donate you will also go to hell. I also know there are religions that aren't as strict/greedy/condemning.

Personally though, I think they are all a gift from God. I think He made us and purposefully gave us/allowed for all these different viewpoints on religion. First, this gets us discussing and thinking. Second, it gets us growing and learning. Kind of like how building muscle takes work, so does gaining knowledge, wisdom, and faith.

Um, ok, I said faith, and use religion and all that, but I'm not excluding atheists. I'll clarify after I finish getting my main point out.

I think what God cares about, is how we act based on the knowledge/situation we are given. He's not going to condemn people who never heard of Jesus/Allah/Steven Hawking. All He cares about is, are you trying to be a good person. A Christian who tries to follow Christian principles is no different than a Muslim who follows Islam or a whatever else.

Now, for atheists/agnostics, the same principle applies. He only cares if you are trying to be good, trying to better yourself, according to what you know/believe/have been taught.

So yeah. Peace and love everyone.

I agree with a fairly large part of what you say. Allah has promised that there will be no injustice on the day of judgement. If a community has never heard of Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) throughout his life, I think Allah may judge such people based on the message that reached them and the corresponding behavior, on case by case basis. The circumstances of one's life cannot be irrelevant to judgement on the life.

However I would like to caution you against adopting the approach that everything is OK and everyone would go to heaven irrespective of what they do and believe. Most people are not honest explorers and are extremely prejudiced. Often rejection of Allah and Islam is based on arrogance rather than study.

Among Hindus this approach is very common (i.e. everyone will ultimately attain Mokhsha). This has led to the situation that many people go to temple early in the morning and then proceed to indulge in corrupt acts throughout the day; without any sense of contradiction or guilt.

(There are many good things about Hinduism, but this is one of the serious drawbacks)
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
JaxsonRaine
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7/8/2012 11:31:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm not saying everyone is going to go to heaven or be saved or attain the highest level of enlightenment, or whatever you call it.

I have to acknowledge that a huge part of who I am has to do with the way I was raised. My moral values came from my parents. If I were raised by parents who taught me radical Islamic teachings and prepared me to blow myself up for glory of Allah, who knows? I might have done it. If I were raised by abusive, drug-using, alcoholic parents, I might very well be a much 'worse' person than I am today.

It's not easy, or really possible, for us to judge each other. God can judge us,because he knows how well we are doing based on what we have been given.

For Christian teachings, which I'm most familiar with, the parable of the talents is probably one of the simplest and most important teachings. 'Salvation' has everything to do with what you do with what you are given. God won't judge people all by one standard.

I'm not sure if any religion is 'perfect', and I think that is by design. He needed to give us/allow us to have conflicting ideas. If He just gave us all the truth and only one truth, where would the choice be? Where would the free will be?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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7/8/2012 11:32:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 8:16:59 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If only religion was that caring and open minded...

I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about God. Religion isn't God.

God is much more caring, loving, and understanding than any religion.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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7/8/2012 11:35:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 8:56:02 AM, twocupcakes wrote:According to there "knowledge/situation" they are good, yet it is pretty clear these are bad people.

Are they really bad though? What caused them to be bad?

Can any of us really judge them? Are they the way they are because of choices they have made, or is it because of what they were taught as children, or is it because of the environment they were raised in?

Were they abused, do they have some type of psychological defect? Yeah, maybe someone is just rotten in some way, but maybe it's not really their fault. Maybe if they were born in your circumstances they wouldn't be so different from you.

Jesus taught not to judge, and there is good reason for it... judging is one of the things we do most, when we have no right or ability to do so.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/8/2012 11:36:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 11:32:17 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/8/2012 8:16:59 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If only religion was that caring and open minded...

I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about God. Religion isn't God.

God is much more caring, loving, and understanding than any religion.

Do you believe, that one could live a moral life just as good as any other believer in God, except, that one didn't actually believe that God existed? Or, is belief in this God a necessary condition which needs to be in place for one to experience the same positive afterlife experience as a believer?
baggins
Posts: 855
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7/8/2012 11:50:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 11:31:24 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I'm not saying everyone is going to go to heaven or be saved or attain the highest level of enlightenment, or whatever you call it.

I have to acknowledge that a huge part of who I am has to do with the way I was raised. My moral values came from my parents. If I were raised by parents who taught me radical Islamic teachings and prepared me to blow myself up for glory of Allah, who knows? I might have done it. If I were raised by abusive, drug-using, alcoholic parents, I might very well be a much 'worse' person than I am today.

It's not easy, or really possible, for us to judge each other. God can judge us,because he knows how well we are doing based on what we have been given.

For Christian teachings, which I'm most familiar with, the parable of the talents is probably one of the simplest and most important teachings. 'Salvation' has everything to do with what you do with what you are given. God won't judge people all by one standard.

I agree completely.

I'm not sure if any religion is 'perfect', and I think that is by design. He needed to give us/allow us to have conflicting ideas. If He just gave us all the truth and only one truth, where would the choice be? Where would the free will be?

There is only one truth. You will realize it when you study different religions in detail. Strip away the culture and religious practices. Go to back to original sources. Ignore difference is rules and regulations. The core of all religions is same.

The Holy Bible, Mark 12:29-30

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
Posts: 855
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7/8/2012 11:56:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 11:36:52 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/8/2012 11:32:17 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/8/2012 8:16:59 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If only religion was that caring and open minded...

I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about God. Religion isn't God.

God is much more caring, loving, and understanding than any religion.

Do you believe, that one could live a moral life just as good as any other believer in God, except, that one didn't actually believe that God existed? Or, is belief in this God a necessary condition which needs to be in place for one to experience the same positive afterlife experience as a believer?

The question is, why don't you believe in God?

Don't answer me. We are not the judge. Answer yourself. Because you will be questioned about it on the day of judgement.

If you ask us from the point of view of religion, definitely faith in God is needed. But if you have reason for disbelief, our view should be irrelevant. If you don't have any reason, then you can see that you might be in trouble.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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7/8/2012 11:59:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 11:36:52 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/8/2012 11:32:17 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/8/2012 8:16:59 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If only religion was that caring and open minded...

I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about God. Religion isn't God.

God is much more caring, loving, and understanding than any religion.

Do you believe, that one could live a moral life just as good as any other believer in God, except, that one didn't actually believe that God existed? Or, is belief in this God a necessary condition which needs to be in place for one to experience the same positive afterlife experience as a believer?

I thought I made that fairly clear in my original post.

No, you don't have to believe in God, necessarily, to be 'saved' or whatever. I'm sure there are some people who have the environment where he expects it, and others who don't.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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7/8/2012 12:00:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 11:50:52 AM, baggins wrote:
At 7/8/2012 11:31:24 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I'm not saying everyone is going to go to heaven or be saved or attain the highest level of enlightenment, or whatever you call it.

I have to acknowledge that a huge part of who I am has to do with the way I was raised. My moral values came from my parents. If I were raised by parents who taught me radical Islamic teachings and prepared me to blow myself up for glory of Allah, who knows? I might have done it. If I were raised by abusive, drug-using, alcoholic parents, I might very well be a much 'worse' person than I am today.

It's not easy, or really possible, for us to judge each other. God can judge us,because he knows how well we are doing based on what we have been given.

For Christian teachings, which I'm most familiar with, the parable of the talents is probably one of the simplest and most important teachings. 'Salvation' has everything to do with what you do with what you are given. God won't judge people all by one standard.

I agree completely.

I'm not sure if any religion is 'perfect', and I think that is by design. He needed to give us/allow us to have conflicting ideas. If He just gave us all the truth and only one truth, where would the choice be? Where would the free will be?

There is only one truth. You will realize it when you study different religions in detail. Strip away the culture and religious practices. Go to back to original sources. Ignore difference is rules and regulations. The core of all religions is same.

The Holy Bible, Mark 12:29-30

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.


My true hope is that one day we'll all have a big party in heaven, and everyone will be surprised that everybody else is there.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
twocupcakes
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7/8/2012 1:24:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 11:35:35 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/8/2012 8:56:02 AM, twocupcakes wrote:According to there "knowledge/situation" they are good, yet it is pretty clear these are bad people.

Are they really bad though? What caused them to be bad?

Can any of us really judge them? Are they the way they are because of choices they have made, or is it because of what they were taught as children, or is it because of the environment they were raised in?

Were they abused, do they have some type of psychological defect? Yeah, maybe someone is just rotten in some way, but maybe it's not really their fault. Maybe if they were born in your circumstances they wouldn't be so different from you.

Jesus taught not to judge, and there is good reason for it... judging is one of the things we do most, when we have no right or ability to do so.

Yes, suicide bombers, people who stone adulterers and the Westboro Baptist Church are bad people. People are brought up with different experiences, but we have the ability to choose what these experiences mean.

Nate Phelps (son of the leader of the WBC) was so disgusted by his fathers hate, that he did his best to love everyone and be a good person.He ran away from home as soon as he 18, and is a gay rights activist, motivational speaker and atheist.

People who give their lives exploding themselves to kill others, and people who throw rocks at people until they die for trivial crimes ( leaving the religion, adultery, blasphemy) are bad people.
JaxsonRaine
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7/8/2012 2:43:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 1:24:12 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 7/8/2012 11:35:35 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/8/2012 8:56:02 AM, twocupcakes wrote:According to there "knowledge/situation" they are good, yet it is pretty clear these are bad people.

Are they really bad though? What caused them to be bad?

Can any of us really judge them? Are they the way they are because of choices they have made, or is it because of what they were taught as children, or is it because of the environment they were raised in?

Were they abused, do they have some type of psychological defect? Yeah, maybe someone is just rotten in some way, but maybe it's not really their fault. Maybe if they were born in your circumstances they wouldn't be so different from you.

Jesus taught not to judge, and there is good reason for it... judging is one of the things we do most, when we have no right or ability to do so.

Yes, suicide bombers, people who stone adulterers and the Westboro Baptist Church are bad people. People are brought up with different experiences, but we have the ability to choose what these experiences mean.

Nate Phelps (son of the leader of the WBC) was so disgusted by his fathers hate, that he did his best to love everyone and be a good person.He ran away from home as soon as he 18, and is a gay rights activist, motivational speaker and atheist.

People who give their lives exploding themselves to kill others, and people who throw rocks at people until they die for trivial crimes ( leaving the religion, adultery, blasphemy) are bad people.

Ok, that's your viewpoint, and you are entitled to it. Yeah, some people in bad environments turn out well, and some people in good environments don't, but a larger number of people in bad environments don't than people in good environments.

Do you think we are supposed to judge these people? Are you so sure that you wouldn't be like them if that was what you had been taught your whole life?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
twocupcakes
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7/8/2012 2:55:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

Ok, that's your viewpoint, and you are entitled to it. Yeah, some people in bad environments turn out well, and some people in good environments don't, but a larger number of people in bad environments don't than people in good environments.

Do you think we are supposed to judge these people? Are you so sure that you wouldn't be like them if that was what you had been taught your whole life?

Yes, we can judge suicide bombers ect as bad people. I find moderate religion ridiculous and rejected it, so I would like to think I would also reject, extremist religion. However, if I did not reject these extremist religious views I would be a bad
person.

I will also add that if you are only "doing good" because you believe that "God" wants it, you are not a good person. You are a good person if and only if you would "do good" whether God exists or not.
JaxsonRaine
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7/8/2012 3:04:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 2:55:43 PM, twocupcakes wrote:

Ok, that's your viewpoint, and you are entitled to it. Yeah, some people in bad environments turn out well, and some people in good environments don't, but a larger number of people in bad environments don't than people in good environments.

Do you think we are supposed to judge these people? Are you so sure that you wouldn't be like them if that was what you had been taught your whole life?

Yes, we can judge suicide bombers ect as bad people. I find moderate religion ridiculous and rejected it, so I would like to think I would also reject, extremist religion. However, if I did not reject these extremist religious views I would be a bad
person.

I will also add that if you are only "doing good" because you believe that "God" wants it, you are not a good person. You are a good person if and only if you would "do good" whether God exists or not.

I'm sorry to hear you say that. I'm sorry to see you judge people who are taught one thing only in their life, and believing it. I'm sorry to see you thinking you are better than others, when you might be the same as them if you had lived in their shoes.

Environment makes a difference. Morals and what is 'right' is completely dependent on what a person is taught and what they experience.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
twocupcakes
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7/8/2012 3:28:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 3:04:49 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/8/2012 2:55:43 PM, twocupcakes wrote:

Ok, that's your viewpoint, and you are entitled to it. Yeah, some people in bad environments turn out well, and some people in good environments don't, but a larger number of people in bad environments don't than people in good environments.

Do you think we are supposed to judge these people? Are you so sure that you wouldn't be like them if that was what you had been taught your whole life?

Yes, we can judge suicide bombers ect as bad people. I find moderate religion ridiculous and rejected it, so I would like to think I would also reject, extremist religion. However, if I did not reject these extremist religious views I would be a bad
person.

I will also add that if you are only "doing good" because you believe that "God" wants it, you are not a good person. You are a good person if and only if you would "do good" whether God exists or not.

I'm sorry to hear you say that. I'm sorry to see you judge people who are taught one thing only in their life, and believing it. I'm sorry to see you thinking you are better than others, when you might be the same as them if you had lived in their shoes.

Environment makes a difference. Morals and what is 'right' is completely dependent on what a person is taught and what they experience.

You cannot see that suicide bombers ect are bad people. I asserted that if I was like them in their situation, I would be a bad person. However, I do believe i am more moral then suicide bombers ect.

People have different experiences and can choose what these experiences mean. I admit that we should not be so quick to judge people. For, example an 14 year old member of the WBC, probably should not be criticized. However, if a grown man is picketing the funerals of fallen soldiers spreading hate, they are bad people. A 15 yo attending a stoning prob should not be judged. But if a grown man is capable of throwing a stone at a helpless women, they are bad.

Also, are you judging me for judging others? Who are you to judge that judging is bad?
JaxsonRaine
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7/8/2012 3:33:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 3:28:39 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
You cannot see that suicide bombers ect are bad people. I asserted that if I was like them in their situation, I would be a bad person. However, I do believe i am more moral then suicide bombers ect.

But if you were like them in their situation, how would you be more moral? How do you know you wouldn't do what they do? You can't know that. They might be more 'moral' than you if your places were switched.

People have different experiences and can choose what these experiences mean. I admit that we should not be so quick to judge people. For, example an 14 year old member of the WBC, probably should not be criticized. However, if a grown man is picketing the funerals of fallen soldiers spreading hate, they are bad people. A 15 yo attending a stoning prob should not be judged. But if a grown man is capable of throwing a stone at a helpless women, they are bad.

Also, are you judging me for judging others? Who are you to judge that judging is bad?

I'm not trying to judge you. I'm trying to help you see that there are reasons for why people are different, and it's not always by choice.

I used to think that bad people were bad and good people were good, until I realized I could do bad things even with my amazing upbringing. The point is, there isn't a single human who can tell why a 'bad' person is bad. Was it his choice, or is it the way his pysche was developed through environment?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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7/8/2012 3:35:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Look at the silver foxes that were domesticated in Russia.

Each new litter was separated into aggressive and non-agressive groups, and groups were bred with their own group. After 50 years, you have silver foxes that are completely tame and won't attack people. The aggressive foxes are extremely agressive now, and will attack anything that comes near them.

Researches can identify several genetic differences between the two groups. There is literally an aggression gene. What if you were born with more of an agression gene? Would that mean you were a worse person than you are now, or would it mean that your situation is different?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
baggins
Posts: 855
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7/9/2012 12:25:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 12:00:18 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/8/2012 11:50:52 AM, baggins wrote:
At 7/8/2012 11:31:24 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I'm not saying everyone is going to go to heaven or be saved or attain the highest level of enlightenment, or whatever you call it.

I have to acknowledge that a huge part of who I am has to do with the way I was raised. My moral values came from my parents. If I were raised by parents who taught me radical Islamic teachings and prepared me to blow myself up for glory of Allah, who knows? I might have done it. If I were raised by abusive, drug-using, alcoholic parents, I might very well be a much 'worse' person than I am today.

It's not easy, or really possible, for us to judge each other. God can judge us,because he knows how well we are doing based on what we have been given.

For Christian teachings, which I'm most familiar with, the parable of the talents is probably one of the simplest and most important teachings. 'Salvation' has everything to do with what you do with what you are given. God won't judge people all by one standard.

I agree completely.

I'm not sure if any religion is 'perfect', and I think that is by design. He needed to give us/allow us to have conflicting ideas. If He just gave us all the truth and only one truth, where would the choice be? Where would the free will be?

There is only one truth. You will realize it when you study different religions in detail. Strip away the culture and religious practices. Go to back to original sources. Ignore difference is rules and regulations. The core of all religions is same.

The Holy Bible, Mark 12:29-30

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.


My true hope is that one day we'll all have a big party in heaven, and everyone will be surprised that everybody else is there.

See you there (God willing).
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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7/9/2012 12:05:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 3:33:08 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/8/2012 3:28:39 PM, twocupcakes wrote:

But if you were like them in their situation, how would you be more moral? How do you know you wouldn't do what they do? You can't know that. They might be more 'moral' than you if your places were switched.

The idea that people who commit the most heinous crimes should not be judged is absurd. Who is a more moral person? Adolf Hitler or Nelson Mandela? Jesus Christ or a serial killer? Gandhi or Osama Bin Laden? The point that we should not be so quick to judge is reasonable, but not judging people who commit the most heinous crimes is absurd.

To answer your question, if I was born to the Bin Laden family, I would be more moral then Osama by not abandoning my family to attack and murder thousands of innocents. I can't fathom any environment that could persuade me to murder thousands of innocents. Even if I would have became a jihadist like Osama, I can still judge him. He is bad, and if I were to be like him if raised like him, I would be bad too.

I'm not trying to judge you. I'm trying to help you see that there are reasons for why people are different, and it's not always by choice.

I used to think that bad people were bad and good people were good, until I realized I could do bad things even with my amazing upbringing. The point is, there isn't a single human who can tell why a 'bad' person is bad. Was it his choice, or is it the way his pysche was developed through environment?

You say you can do bad things, but you would not "kill in cold blood" or "commit genocide". I'm sure research is done as to why bad people are bad. A general view of mine is that we have the ability to form our character by deciding what experiences mean.
twocupcakes
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7/9/2012 12:34:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 3:35:54 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Look at the silver foxes that were domesticated in Russia.

Each new litter was separated into aggressive and non-agressive groups, and groups were bred with their own group. After 50 years, you have silver foxes that are completely tame and won't attack people. The aggressive foxes are extremely agressive now, and will attack anything that comes near them.

Researches can identify several genetic differences between the two groups. There is literally an aggression gene. What if you were born with more of an agression gene? Would that mean you were a worse person than you are now, or would it mean that your situation is different?

I don't think being aggressive makes you bad. It depends on how you channel your aggression. Humans, as opposed to foxes, can channel their instincts into positives. Aggression can be used in positive ways. I believe that everyone has the potential to be a great person.

Is there an evil gene? I don't think so. There are many non-violent psychopaths. People are born different, it is their decisions that make them good or bad.
tyler90az
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7/9/2012 2:00:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/8/2012 3:02:44 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Disclaimer 1: I'm not sayng this is truth. I'm just stating my opinion. I don't believe that you will go to hell for eternity if you disagree, I'm not condemning you, I'm not trying to judge anyone. (Will JaxsonRaine be flamed by zealots from all sides? Stay tuned!)

Disclaimer 2: It's late and I'm in kind of a ticked-off mood and I'm not typing very well. Sorry.

Ok, first off, I believe that God exists, cares about us, and either intervenes in our lives, or set up our existance as a sort of complicated rube-goldberg machine in which we get the 'intervention' He wants us to have when we need/ask for it.

Now, I know there are all sorts of religions saying you have to do X to be saved, if you do Y you will go to hell, and if you don't join church Z and donate you will also go to hell. I also know there are religions that aren't as strict/greedy/condemning.

Personally though, I think they are all a gift from God. I think He made us and purposefully gave us/allowed for all these different viewpoints on religion. First, this gets us discussing and thinking. Second, it gets us growing and learning. Kind of like how building muscle takes work, so does gaining knowledge, wisdom, and faith.

Um, ok, I said faith, and use religion and all that, but I'm not excluding atheists. I'll clarify after I finish getting my main point out.

I think what God cares about, is how we act based on the knowledge/situation we are given. He's not going to condemn people who never heard of Jesus/Allah/Steven Hawking. All He cares about is, are you trying to be a good person. A Christian who tries to follow Christian principles is no different than a Muslim who follows Islam or a whatever else.

Now, for atheists/agnostics, the same principle applies. He only cares if you are trying to be good, trying to better yourself, according to what you know/believe/have been taught.

So yeah. Peace and love everyone.

You sound like a Latter-day Saint Jaxson! You darn water drinker!
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
JaxsonRaine
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7/9/2012 5:25:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:00:31 PM, tyler90az wrote:
You sound like a Latter-day Saint Jaxson! You darn water drinker!

Nah, I could never be LDS... I drink too much soda! :D
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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7/9/2012 5:30:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 12:34:23 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
I don't think being aggressive makes you bad. It depends on how you channel your aggression. Humans, as opposed to foxes, can channel their instincts into positives. Aggression can be used in positive ways. I believe that everyone has the potential to be a great person.

So, if animals attack humans with intent to kill because of genetics, it doesn't make them bad. But if humans attack humans because of genetics, it makes them bad? This 'aggression' gene that I'm talking about causes the animals to attack almost anything that moves. It has nothing to do with how good or bad they are, it's their genes.

That's the whole point. We don't know what causes 'bad' people to be 'bad'. Is it genetics? Is it their own choice? You can't just assume that you are the same as everyone else and everyone has the same genetic makeup/psychological operations.

Is there an evil gene? I don't think so. There are many non-violent psychopaths. People are born different, it is their decisions that make them good or bad.

You don't think so, but there is overwhelming evidence of a gene linked to violence and aggression among animals. Why don't you think there could be genes responsible for the way humans act?

If you grew up in a different society where you were constantly at war with another nation, and you were taught your whole life that killing the members of the other nation would bring you honor, you don't think that would have an effect on you?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
twocupcakes
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7/9/2012 8:07:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

So, if animals attack humans with intent to kill because of genetics, it doesn't make them bad. But if humans attack humans because of genetics, it makes them bad? This 'aggression' gene that I'm talking about causes the animals to attack almost anything that moves. It has nothing to do with how good or bad they are, it's their genes.

Yes, if an animal attacks/kills we should not judge the animal as bad. If a human attacks/kills we can judge the human as bad. Humans should control their instincts and reason morally. This is the view taken by society. Humans go to jail, not animals. This Seaworld whale killed its trainer, the animal was not punished or called bad. http://news.nationalgeographic.com...

That's the whole point. We don't know what causes 'bad' people to be 'bad'. Is it genetics? Is it their own choice? You can't just assume that you are the same as everyone else and everyone has the same genetic makeup/psychological operations.

These are all things to consider when judging people, however people can be judged as bad. Some people are born with different makeups yet I believe everyone has potential to be good.

You don't think so, but there is overwhelming evidence of a gene linked to violence and aggression among animals. Why don't you think there could be genes responsible for the way humans act?

Unlike animals, humans have the responsibility to repress their instinct and act morally. Humans have the ability to do this.

If you grew up in a different society where you were constantly at war with another nation, and you were taught your whole life that killing the members of the other nation would bring you honor, you don't think that would have an effect on you?

Yes, this would effect you. I would not judge many Nazis in WW2 who did not know what was going on. However, some, especially those responsible for the holocaust are bad people.

My quarrel with you is your reluctance to judge anybody at all, even Hitlers, Bin Ladens and Fred Phelps'. You would not be able to decide if Hitler was more moral then Ghandi or Jesus, because you strictly refrain from judging. I understand there are many circumstances to be considered, however people can be judged. I responded to another post of yours, and explained my opinions deeper their.
JaxsonRaine
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7/9/2012 11:19:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 8:07:25 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
My quarrel with you is your reluctance to judge anybody at all, even Hitlers, Bin Ladens and Fred Phelps'. You would not be able to decide if Hitler was more moral then Ghandi or Jesus, because you strictly refrain from judging. I understand there are many circumstances to be considered, however people can be judged. I responded to another post of yours, and explained my opinions deeper their.

Ok, you have contradicted yourself about what role environment plays. I guess the real issue is just what I quoted above.

From a religious standpoint, I absolutely do not judge Hitler, Bin Laden, Jesus, you, or anyone else. That's why this is in the religion forum. There is a possibility that if my place had been switched with any of those 'bad' people, I might have been just as bad, or worse. They might have been just as good, or better than I have been. I believe the whole concept of 'Judge not', because there isn't a single human who can understand the reasons why another human does what he does. Not one. We can't say if it is because of choice, because of reaction, or because of environment.

I'm not saying nobody should be held responsible for their actions in society. Certainly we need order, but that's why this is in the religious forum, not the political forum.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13