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Consider This Atheists

acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/9/2012 2:59:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.


The italicized portion is a non sequitor.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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7/9/2012 3:00:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge.

Atheists claim that God doesn't exist. They could not know this and still end up being correct, why wouldn't this be possible?

And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

Don't even know what to say.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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7/9/2012 3:03:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:00:59 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge.

Atheists claim that God doesn't exist. They could not know this and still end up being correct, why wouldn't this be possible?

And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

Don't even know what to say.

Say it's a non sequitur.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/9/2012 3:09:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:00:59 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge.

Atheists claim that God doesn't exist. They could not know this and still end up being correct, why wouldn't this be possible?
Considering how atheists act like they KNOW God doesnt exist, they would have to be omniscient to claim that

And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

Don't even know what to say.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/9/2012 3:10:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

False. The Atheist could have absolutely zero knowledge and still be right that God doesn't exist. The Atheists knowledge or lack of doesn't dictate the existence of God. God exists or not exists regardless of what the Atheist believes or knows.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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7/9/2012 3:11:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:10:14 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

False. The Atheist could have absolutely zero knowledge and still be right that God doesn't exist. The Atheists knowledge or lack of doesn't dictate the existence of God. God exists or not exists regardless of what the Atheist believes or knows.

This.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/9/2012 3:16:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Congrats! That's the worst argument for Gods existence I've heard all week.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/9/2012 3:17:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

So your saying the odds of God's existence is high, because Atheists don't know everything? Well, theists don't know everything either, does that make his existence extremely low too? Your conclusion does not follow from your premises. Try harder....
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/9/2012 3:17:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:10:14 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

False. The Atheist could have absolutely zero knowledge and still be right that God doesn't exist. The Atheists knowledge or lack of doesn't dictate the existence of God. God exists or not exists regardless of what the Atheist believes or knows.


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Bingo. End thread..
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/9/2012 3:18:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:09:23 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:00:59 PM, Rusty wrote:
Atheists claim that God doesn't exist. They could not know this and still end up being correct, why wouldn't this be possible?
Considering how atheists act like they KNOW God doesnt exist, they would have to be omniscient to claim that

Most Atheists do not claim to know for a fact, they claim there is no convincing evidence that God exists. The Theists are the ones who think they know God exists because they talk to him and worship him and they leave their destiny in the hands of God.

Even Richard Dawkins says he doesn't know for certain.

Is it that hard to understand that if there's no evidence there's no good reason to believe it? If you dont require evidence for beliefs then everything is free reign and you might as well believe in Zeus and that the Avengers are real.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/9/2012 3:23:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
According to this logic the following things exist.

Big foot
Fairies
Santa
Magical berries that turn farts into fairy dust.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/9/2012 3:25:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:18:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:09:23 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:00:59 PM, Rusty wrote:
Atheists claim that God doesn't exist. They could not know this and still end up being correct, why wouldn't this be possible?
Considering how atheists act like they KNOW God doesnt exist, they would have to be omniscient to claim that

Most Atheists do not claim to know for a fact, they claim there is no convincing evidence that God exists. The Theists are the ones who think they know God exists because they talk to him and worship him and they leave their destiny in the hands of God.

Even Richard Dawkins says he doesn't know for certain.

Is it that hard to understand that if there's no evidence there's no good reason to believe it? If you dont require evidence for beliefs then everything is free reign and you might as well believe in Zeus and that the Avengers are real.

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Well you don't need evidence for beliefs in general, just extra-ordinary ones. For example, if I was at work and someone said they ate a hamburger that day, I would believe it with no evidence required. Now, if I was at work and someone said they teleoported there, then that would require evidence before I believed it. Since the idea of God defies our everyday experience, we need hard evidence for his existence before reasonable belief in him can be possible. Quantum Mechanics for example, defies everyday experience, however we have strong evidence for it that can be tested, so I believe in it. God however? 0 evidence, none, zip....
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/9/2012 3:39:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:25:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:18:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is it that hard to understand that if there's no evidence there's no good reason to believe it? If you dont require evidence for beliefs then everything is free reign and you might as well believe in Zeus and that the Avengers are real.

Well you don't need evidence for beliefs in general, just extra-ordinary ones. For example, if I was at work and someone said they ate a hamburger that day, I would believe it with no evidence required. Now, if I was at work and someone said they teleoported there, then that would require evidence before I believed it. Since the idea of God defies our everyday experience, we need hard evidence for his existence before reasonable belief in him can be possible. Quantum Mechanics for example, defies everyday experience, however we have strong evidence for it that can be tested, so I believe in it. God however? 0 evidence, none, zip....

Yes, I am familiar with extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I was presuming non-trivial day-to-day belief claims.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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7/9/2012 4:11:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

From Wikipedia - Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate the idea that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claimed that a teapot were orbiting the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, it would be nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they could not prove him wrong.

Also, you haven't specified which God you're referring to. Much of the time theists spend arguing for God, they're arguing for some perfect, abstract, non-corporeal being that can't really be disproved. The problem with that is that religious people aren't simply deists who believe in an abstract and impersonal God - they believe in a very specific God, with specific names, personality, demands, commandments, holy books he authored, etc. You believe in such a God, yet your post makes it seem like all you are arguing for is a very different God, an impersonal abstraction of the God you truly worship.

Can any atheist technically disprove with certainty the existence of any abstract, impersonal, non-physical being? No, which is why atheists tend not to assert that they can. They simply assert that there is no solid evidence to prove that such a being exists. Furthermore, Gods of specific religions can be disproved, if there are contradictions within holy text(s), contradictions with accepted and provable facts about modern science, contradictions with history, contradictions with basic morality (murder, rape, etc). I believe each of the three great monotheistic religions has all these characteristics evident in their holy books, therefore I safely discard them as falsehoods, because no book displaying such characteristics would be the product of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent deity. (One might argue that such a deity is logically impossible in and of itself, by virtue of these incompatible/impossible traits.)
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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7/9/2012 4:16:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:00:59 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge.

Atheists claim that God doesn't exist. They could not know this and still end up being correct, why wouldn't this be possible?

Actually, I don't think most atheists claim that God doesn't exist.

I think most atheists claim that there is not currently, and there has never been, sufficient evidence to establish the existence of a God, or the divine inspiration/truth of any known religion.

I think most atheists are, very technically speaking, agnostics, because they tend to be smart enough to recognize the logical difficulties of proving absolute, negative claims such as "God does not exist" - but only in the sense that they are agnostic with regard to Santa and fairies.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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7/9/2012 4:20:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Technically speaking, knowledge has a truth condition - so if an atheist does in fact know that God doesn't exist then that means God doesn't exist.

/epistemologist
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Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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7/9/2012 6:11:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:10:14 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

False. The (A)theist could have absolutely zero knowledge and still be right that God does exist. The (A)theists knowledge or lack of doesn't dictate the existence of God. God exists or not exists regardless of what the (A)theist believes or knows.


And vice versa ;)
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/9/2012 6:14:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

No. In order for us to be right, it just needs to be true. Truth can lie outside of knowledge.

Now, maybe this is true for us to be justified, but that's a separate topic altogether.

Do you know what epistemology is?
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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7/9/2012 8:07:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Are you aware that the buden of proof is yours, not the Atheists?
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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7/9/2012 8:10:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 8:07:34 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Are you aware that the buden of proof is yours, not the Atheists?

Isn't the burden on whomever is making the assertion?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/9/2012 8:11:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

Yeah...
It's usually the theists that claim to know something We don't...

I just don't understand how one can reasonably come to the notion that some god exists :/
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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7/9/2012 8:11:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 8:10:20 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 7/9/2012 8:07:34 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Are you aware that the buden of proof is yours, not the Atheists?

Isn't the burden on whomever is making the assertion?

Thus the reason the BoP is the Theists. They are making an assertion that God exists.

Also, the BoP normally lies on the affirmstive side not the negative side.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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7/9/2012 8:14:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 8:11:21 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 7/9/2012 8:10:20 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 7/9/2012 8:07:34 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Are you aware that the buden of proof is yours, not the Atheists?

Isn't the burden on whomever is making the assertion?

Thus the reason the BoP is the Theists. They are making an assertion that God exists.

Also, the BoP normally lies on the affirmstive side not the negative side.

So if the atheist asserts "God does not exist" they do not have to back up their claim?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/9/2012 8:35:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 8:14:23 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
So if the atheist asserts "God does not exist" they do not have to back up their claim?

no, they don't..

They just win.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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7/9/2012 8:39:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

If there is a possibility that God exists outside our knowledge, then how can we ascertain of his existence then????
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Jessalyn
Posts: 125
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7/9/2012 8:45:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

Most atheists do not claim to know anything for sure. They make educated assumptions.
WARNING: Hitchslaps may become inflamed when accompanied by unceasing stupidity.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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7/9/2012 9:52:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 8:45:26 PM, Jessalyn wrote:
At 7/9/2012 2:57:49 PM, acvavra wrote:
For an Atheist to be right, he would have to know everything because there is always the possibility that God exists outside your knowledge. And considering that most people claim to not know everything, the odds of God's existence are extremely high.

Most atheists do not claim to know anything for sure. They make educated assumptions.

Well, I would say this is true about the kind of vague, abstract deity the OP described. However, I think most atheists speak a bit more certainly about the personal God as described in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - the kind of God who seemingly has many human-like tendencies, is referred to basically as a super-human, cares about the dietary and sexual practices of specific members of the human species, craves constant worship, etc.

This God is immensely less plausible because he (he! God is a he!) was so clearly created in the image of man. I mean, he is creepily obsessed with human sexuality, he really wants to be worshiped incessantly for all of eternity... He's just too interested in the most petty dealings of mankind, when science has shown us how trivial we are in the grand scheme of everything.... So my point is I think many or most atheists would be more confident in saying that they know for sure that no holy text we can read today was divinely inspired by the perfect, eternal creator of all that exists.