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Crucifixtion

Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/26/2009 5:37:55 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
The Christian message seems to be (and apoligies if I am generalising) that we are all sinners, sin is an inevitable part of our nature and sin leads to hell (or at least an absence of heaven).

However the sacrifice of Jesus, a perfect being devoid of sin, buys us the forgiveness of God so long as we choose it and believe in it?

Is it me or does this make no sense?

I have the following objections.
'We' did not sacrifice Jesus to God. We were ignorant of his value, and killed him for being a troublemaker. He was not ours to sacrifice, as a 'gift' from God and as God himself he belongs to God. We can't sacrifice him. Why does a single blood sacrifice exonerate us from all sin, past, present and future?

Can anyone explain this to me? I mean as its the fundemental basis of Christianity I do feel rather stupid.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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8/26/2009 6:00:50 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 5:37:55 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
The Christian message seems to be (and apoligies if I am generalising) that we are all sinners, sin is an inevitable part of our nature and sin leads to hell (or at least an absence of heaven).

However the sacrifice of Jesus, a perfect being devoid of sin, buys us the forgiveness of God so long as we choose it and believe in it?

Is it me or does this make no sense?

I have the following objections.
'We' did not sacrifice Jesus to God. We were ignorant of his value, and killed him for being a troublemaker. He was not ours to sacrifice, as a 'gift' from God and as God himself he belongs to God. We can't sacrifice him. Why does a single blood sacrifice exonerate us from all sin, past, present and future?

Can anyone explain this to me? I mean as its the fundemental basis of Christianity I do feel rather stupid.

It's not you. It makes absolutely no sense. OK, I'm with it as far as Jesus sacrifice himself in place of humanity. BUT: Jesus and God is the same!? So God decides to take his own punishment so that humanity doesn't?

That does not compute. But such is religion. In fact, it's important for religion to NOT make sense, because it wants people to unquestionably accept whatever idiocy they cram down your throat.
So prove me wrong, then.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/26/2009 9:31:32 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 5:37:55 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
The Christian message seems to be (and apoligies if I am generalising) that we are all sinners, sin is an inevitable part of our nature and sin leads to hell (or at least an absence of heaven).

However the sacrifice of Jesus, a perfect being devoid of sin, buys us the forgiveness of God so long as we choose it and believe in it?

Is it me or does this make no sense?

I have the following objections.
'We' did not sacrifice Jesus to God. We were ignorant of his value, and killed him for being a troublemaker. He was not ours to sacrifice, as a 'gift' from God and as God himself he belongs to God. We can't sacrifice him. Why does a single blood sacrifice exonerate us from all sin, past, present and future?

Can anyone explain this to me? I mean as its the fundemental basis of Christianity I do feel rather stupid.

I don't know if anyone can fully understand it.. even among Christians there are many ways to see it:

We are 'washed clean' by His blood..
He 'bore our sins' on the cross.. (took our punishment for us)
He seperated from God that we might be reconciled..
He took the wrath of God that we might be spared it..
He 'broke the curse' of sin (that Adam brought into the world through disobedience) by complete obedience, even to a shameful, murderers death..

ALL of the above are true but they are NOT the whole Truth..

Don't worry if you don't understand it.. you CANNOT! not with your mind or your feelings etc.. It HAS to be a gift from God.. It HAS to be a spiritual encounter: Salvation is the Lords!

That doesn't stop you from ASKING for this revelation: asking to be saved.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is utterly unbelievable: that an obscure preachers execution in a far flung corner of the Roman empire was ACTUALLY THE pivotal event in human history: that His claims to be THE Son of God were true AND that (just as He predicted) He was resurrected and appearred to many people including 500 at one time..

Utterly unbelievable.

And yet I believe the above with EVERY fibre, EVERY atom of my being.. you might say it's the ONLY thing I believe.

Why? because God has revealed this to me.. When you have the truth you know it.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/26/2009 9:39:09 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Well thank you for your response DAT, it was very honest, a bit unsatisfying but that's not really your fault!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/26/2009 9:56:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 9:39:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Well thank you for your response DAT, it was very honest, a bit unsatisfying but that's not really your fault!

You're really very welcome..
Now, how about changing that icon? a step in the right direction?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/26/2009 10:06:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 9:56:23 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:39:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Well thank you for your response DAT, it was very honest, a bit unsatisfying but that's not really your fault!

You're really very welcome..
Now, how about changing that icon? a step in the right direction?

Hmm... now you have thrown me into a quandry here...

Though accomodating and tolerating the belief systems of others is within my nature, is changing my icon a step too far. It is afterall my right to express myself in such a way, next you might be telling me to burn my D&D books? I am torn between being nice, and a rising sense of defensive stubborness...

I am even slightly tempted to find something even 'worse' but thats just mean...

On a serious note I am not anti-Christian per se, in many ways I am sympathetic to religion. I am just simply an atheist.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Floid
Posts: 751
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8/26/2009 11:27:35 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
We are 'washed clean' by His blood..

Have you ever experienced large amounts of blood? Blood will not clean anything. It tends to congeal and is very sticky. Wouldn't bleach or some other cleaning solution work better?

He 'bore our sins' on the cross.. (took our punishment for us)

Which is a bit silly considering he is the one doing the punishment too. Why didn't God just change his mind instead of sacrificing himself to himself so that he won't have to punish us? I don't see the work of an intelligent being in that whole system.

He seperated from God that we might be reconciled..

Except for you now believe he sits at the right hand of God, which brings up the question what exactly was the sacrifice to begin with? He sacrificed himself so that he can return to eternal paradise? Wow.

He took the wrath of God that we might be spared it..

Again, why didn't God just decide not to be so angry without needing his son as a sacrifice to himself to do so? Couldn't he have created a giant Xanax for himself instead?

He 'broke the curse' of sin

The curse that he created. I am supposed to be thankful that he finally quit having a temper tantrum over someone eating a piece of fruit?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is utterly unbelievable

We are in complete agreement there. That the action of an supreme deity could be so childish and petty is not believable.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/26/2009 12:45:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 10:06:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:56:23 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:39:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Well thank you for your response DAT, it was very honest, a bit unsatisfying but that's not really your fault!

You're really very welcome..
Now, how about changing that icon? a step in the right direction?

Hmm... now you have thrown me into a quandry here...

Though accomodating and tolerating the belief systems of others is within my nature, is changing my icon a step too far. It is afterall my right to express myself in such a way, next you might be telling me to burn my D&D books? I am torn between being nice, and a rising sense of defensive stubborness...

I am even slightly tempted to find something even 'worse' but thats just mean...

On a serious note I am not anti-Christian per se, in many ways I am sympathetic to religion. I am just simply an atheist.

You misunderstand: don't change it for me, change it for YOU.
The Cross.. the Cross.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/26/2009 12:58:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 12:45:59 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 10:06:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:56:23 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:39:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Well thank you for your response DAT, it was very honest, a bit unsatisfying but that's not really your fault!

You're really very welcome..
Now, how about changing that icon? a step in the right direction?

Hmm... now you have thrown me into a quandry here...

Though accomodating and tolerating the belief systems of others is within my nature, is changing my icon a step too far. It is afterall my right to express myself in such a way, next you might be telling me to burn my D&D books? I am torn between being nice, and a rising sense of defensive stubborness...

I am even slightly tempted to find something even 'worse' but thats just mean...

On a serious note I am not anti-Christian per se, in many ways I am sympathetic to religion. I am just simply an atheist.

You misunderstand: don't change it for me, change it for YOU.

Exactly, change it so you can score points into heaven based on the brilliant system whereby you don't have to do good, you just have to believe a non-physical god and his physical son from a woman who never had sex exist and they did good, and then condemn those who sin without doing good once in your life and as long as you fight for this perceived good without actually doing it upon others, then you can get into eternity. Even if you're an Atheist, or a Muslim, you can't get in even if you agree 100% without Christianity morally and defeat poverty, AIDS and illiteracy completely, the egotistic god will still smite you to hell!
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/26/2009 1:00:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 11:27:35 AM, Floid wrote:
We are 'washed clean' by His blood..

Have you ever experienced large amounts of blood? Blood will not clean anything. It tends to congeal and is very sticky. Wouldn't bleach or some other cleaning solution work better?

Everything that happens here temporally and materially is merely a shadow of what happens spiritually in eternity..


He 'bore our sins' on the cross.. (took our punishment for us)

Which is a bit silly considering he is the one doing the punishment too. Why didn't God just change his mind instead of sacrificing himself to himself so that he won't have to punish us? I don't see the work of an intelligent being in that whole system.

Not mind, nature: He'd have to change His nature.. which even He cannot do.. He must remain Just and Holy..
He is One but He is also three.. He delights in His own Word (His meaning/expression) as we all do. His Word is His Son: Jesus Christ.
Adam rejected Gods Word: " the day you eat it you will surely die. " and accepted satans: " you shall not surely die " making satan the 'god of this world'.
By accepting Christ we are accepting Gods Word and making Him our God, again.


He seperated from God that we might be reconciled..

Except for you now believe he sits at the right hand of God, which brings up the question what exactly was the sacrifice to begin with? He sacrificed himself so that he can return to eternal paradise? Wow.

All punishments end.. does that mean there is no such thing as punishment?

He took the wrath of God that we might be spared it..

Again, why didn't God just decide not to be so angry without needing his son as a sacrifice to himself to do so? Couldn't he have created a giant Xanax for himself instead?

Decide NOT to be Himself you mean? Is He a man that changes His mind? NO.

He 'broke the curse' of sin

The curse that he created. I am supposed to be thankful that he finally quit having a temper tantrum over someone eating a piece of fruit?

No, Adam CHOSE it and after an explicit warning that it would result in death. (separation from God)
Remember; the garden of eden is talking of spiritual things: the fruit is the manifestation of free will..

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is utterly unbelievable

We are in complete agreement there. That the action of an supreme deity could be so childish and petty is not believable.

It is you who willfully misunderstands and denegrates each point so you can appear high and mighty: whoever exalts himself will be humbled.. a haughty spirit comes before a fall..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/26/2009 1:25:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 12:45:59 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 10:06:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:56:23 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:39:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Well thank you for your response DAT, it was very honest, a bit unsatisfying but that's not really your fault!

You're really very welcome..
Now, how about changing that icon? a step in the right direction?

Hmm... now you have thrown me into a quandry here...

Though accomodating and tolerating the belief systems of others is within my nature, is changing my icon a step too far. It is afterall my right to express myself in such a way, next you might be telling me to burn my D&D books? I am torn between being nice, and a rising sense of defensive stubborness...

I am even slightly tempted to find something even 'worse' but thats just mean...

On a serious note I am not anti-Christian per se, in many ways I am sympathetic to religion. I am just simply an atheist.

You misunderstand: don't change it for me, change it for YOU.

Oh well in that case I won't change it. I don't have a problem with it!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/26/2009 1:45:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 12:58:21 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/26/2009 12:45:59 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 10:06:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:56:23 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:39:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Well thank you for your response DAT, it was very honest, a bit unsatisfying but that's not really your fault!

You're really very welcome..
Now, how about changing that icon? a step in the right direction?

Hmm... now you have thrown me into a quandry here...

Though accomodating and tolerating the belief systems of others is within my nature, is changing my icon a step too far. It is afterall my right to express myself in such a way, next you might be telling me to burn my D&D books? I am torn between being nice, and a rising sense of defensive stubborness...

I am even slightly tempted to find something even 'worse' but thats just mean...

On a serious note I am not anti-Christian per se, in many ways I am sympathetic to religion. I am just simply an atheist.

You misunderstand: don't change it for me, change it for YOU.

Exactly, change it so you can score points into heaven based on the brilliant system whereby you don't have to do good, you just have to believe a non-physical god and his physical son from a woman who never had sex exist and they did good, and then condemn those who sin without doing good once in your life and as long as you fight for this perceived good without actually doing it upon others, then you can get into eternity. Even if you're an Atheist, or a Muslim, you can't get in even if you agree 100% without Christianity morally and defeat poverty, AIDS and illiteracy completely, the egotistic god will still smite you to hell!

Essentially correct BUT you still make it sound as if God has a choice about all this: WE have the choice.. God cannot change from being utterly Just and Holy (Praise the Lord for that!) we CAN, with Gods help, change to become more like Him.

This is ALL good news.
Stop thinking about your petty little reputation and start WANTING the Truth!
The Cross.. the Cross.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/26/2009 1:48:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 1:45:42 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 12:58:21 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/26/2009 12:45:59 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 10:06:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:56:23 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 9:39:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Well thank you for your response DAT, it was very honest, a bit unsatisfying but that's not really your fault!

You're really very welcome..
Now, how about changing that icon? a step in the right direction?

Hmm... now you have thrown me into a quandry here...

Though accomodating and tolerating the belief systems of others is within my nature, is changing my icon a step too far. It is afterall my right to express myself in such a way, next you might be telling me to burn my D&D books? I am torn between being nice, and a rising sense of defensive stubborness...

I am even slightly tempted to find something even 'worse' but thats just mean...

On a serious note I am not anti-Christian per se, in many ways I am sympathetic to religion. I am just simply an atheist.

You misunderstand: don't change it for me, change it for YOU.

Exactly, change it so you can score points into heaven based on the brilliant system whereby you don't have to do good, you just have to believe a non-physical god and his physical son from a woman who never had sex exist and they did good, and then condemn those who sin without doing good once in your life and as long as you fight for this perceived good without actually doing it upon others, then you can get into eternity. Even if you're an Atheist, or a Muslim, you can't get in even if you agree 100% without Christianity morally and defeat poverty, AIDS and illiteracy completely, the egotistic god will still smite you to hell!

Essentially correct BUT you still make it sound as if God has a choice about all this: WE have the choice.. God cannot change from being utterly Just and Holy (Praise the Lord for that!) we CAN, with Gods help, change to become more like Him.

This is ALL good news.
Stop thinking about your petty little reputation and start WANTING the Truth!

So wait, it doesn't matter if I'm more moral and good than you, but as long as I'm an athiest I don't get into heaven? That contradicts the definition of heaven.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/26/2009 2:06:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 1:48:24 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

So wait, it doesn't matter if I'm more moral and good than you, but as long as I'm an athiest I don't get into heaven? That contradicts the definition of heaven.

NO-ONE is good.. this is why we most 'clothe ourselves in Christ' and you cannot accept Christ while pretending there's no God: you KNOW there is.
The Cross.. the Cross.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/26/2009 2:10:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 2:06:16 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 1:48:24 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

So wait, it doesn't matter if I'm more moral and good than you, but as long as I'm an athiest I don't get into heaven? That contradicts the definition of heaven.

NO-ONE is good.. this is why we most 'clothe ourselves in Christ' and you cannot accept Christ while pretending there's no God: you KNOW there is.

So, wait, telling a man in robes your secrets and eating symbolic bread that tasted like cardboard makes you good, but actually doing acts of good doesn't?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/26/2009 2:21:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/26/2009 2:10:42 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/26/2009 2:06:16 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/26/2009 1:48:24 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

So wait, it doesn't matter if I'm more moral and good than you, but as long as I'm an athiest I don't get into heaven? That contradicts the definition of heaven.

NO-ONE is good.. this is why we most 'clothe ourselves in Christ' and you cannot accept Christ while pretending there's no God: you KNOW there is.

So, wait, telling a man in robes your secrets and eating symbolic bread that tasted like cardboard makes you good, but actually doing acts of good doesn't?

No, giving your LIFE (everything: marriage, kids, money etc) to Jesus Christ makes one righteous.. NOTHING else.
The thief on the cross was never baptised, never took communion etc but he:
(a) Recognised his own guilt..
(b) Recognised Christs innocence..
(c) Asked to be recognised BY Christ..
AND..
(d) Recieved the promise " This very day you will be with me in paradise. "

As soon as you receive salvation THEN you can begin to do good works but NOT before because even with the best will in the world you will inevitably be trying to 'make yourself' good.. impossible.
The Cross.. the Cross.