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What Does It Mean To "Believe" In Christ?

Maikuru
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7/13/2012 9:52:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/12/2012 12:49:03 PM, stubs wrote:


I liked that video. He is charismatic and I think I'd enjoy hearing more of his sermons.

I'm not sure what to take away from his point, though. Is it simply that belief implies some aspect of uncertainty and self-sacrifice? If so, where does one draw the line? Reasonable skepticism seems preferable to gullibility and recklessness, which is territory many of those volunteers he mentioned wandered into.
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stubs
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7/14/2012 1:43:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/13/2012 9:52:48 PM, Maikuru wrote:
I liked that video. He is charismatic and I think I'd enjoy hearing more of his sermons.


He is my favorite pastor and biggest role model.

I'm not sure what to take away from his point, though. Is it simply that belief implies some aspect of uncertainty and self-sacrifice? If so, where does one draw the line? Reasonable skepticism seems preferable to gullibility and recklessness, which is territory many of those volunteers he mentioned wandered into.

In my opinion I think he attempted to show that belief in Christ is not just saying the "sinners prayer." To follow Christ, He calls us to totally lay down our lives. This belief has to just make us say, "Man, Jesus did that for me? I love him so much that I am willing to just do anything for him, anything He calls me to do."
Maikuru
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7/14/2012 2:09:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 1:43:48 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/13/2012 9:52:48 PM, Maikuru wrote:
I liked that video. He is charismatic and I think I'd enjoy hearing more of his sermons.


He is my favorite pastor and biggest role model.

I'm not sure what to take away from his point, though. Is it simply that belief implies some aspect of uncertainty and self-sacrifice? If so, where does one draw the line? Reasonable skepticism seems preferable to gullibility and recklessness, which is territory many of those volunteers he mentioned wandered into.

In my opinion I think he attempted to show that belief in Christ is not just saying the "sinners prayer." To follow Christ, He calls us to totally lay down our lives. This belief has to just make us say, "Man, Jesus did that for me? I love him so much that I am willing to just do anything for him, anything He calls me to do."

Do you think the volunteers who did not raise their hands were well-founded in their skepticism of his claims? Does the fact that they were not willing to have him shoot near their face necessarily mean they did not believe he could hit the target? Did variables exist outside of just the shot that could be considered?

I'm trying to understand the harm in reasonable caution or even open-mindedness when it comes to belief. One should only believe something to the extent to which it survives scrutiny; what cause is there in holding a concept true beyond this point besides stubbornness and ignorance? I also don't understand why or how self-sacrifice even comes into play here. It is possible to believe something without the willingness to endanger oneself during the testing process.
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stubs
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7/14/2012 2:25:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 2:09:03 AM, Maikuru wrote:

Do you think the volunteers who did not raise their hands were well-founded in their skepticism of his claims? Does the fact that they were not willing to have him shoot near their face necessarily mean they did not believe he could hit the target? Did variables exist outside of just the shot that could be considered?


I'm not claiming its a perfect analogy haha. Just that it does a more than decent job of getting the point across. I think that is part of what he was getting at. If they truly believed, wouldn't they allow him to shoot by their faces? Like would I have let him? No way man cause I never seen him shoot a BB gun before haha. I would not have been a true believer that he could hit the target.

I'm trying to understand the harm in reasonable caution or even open-mindedness when it comes to belief. One should only believe something to the extent to which it survives scrutiny; what cause is there in holding a concept true beyond this point besides stubbornness and ignorance? I also don't understand why or how self-sacrifice even comes into play here. It is possible to believe something without the willingness to endanger oneself during the testing process.

I think the self sacrifice flows from the belief. He has a great quote, "But God doesn't call us to be comfortable. He calls us to trust Him so completely that we are unafraid to put ourselves in situations where we will be in trouble if He doesn't come through." That is from his book crazy love.
Maikuru
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7/14/2012 2:40:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 2:25:21 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/14/2012 2:09:03 AM, Maikuru wrote:

Do you think the volunteers who did not raise their hands were well-founded in their skepticism of his claims? Does the fact that they were not willing to have him shoot near their face necessarily mean they did not believe he could hit the target? Did variables exist outside of just the shot that could be considered?


I'm not claiming its a perfect analogy haha. Just that it does a more than decent job of getting the point across. I think that is part of what he was getting at. If they truly believed, wouldn't they allow him to shoot by their faces? Like would I have let him? No way man cause I never seen him shoot a BB gun before haha. I would not have been a true believer that he could hit the target.

Oh, I know lol. My point is that these criticisms translate. You wouldn't have volunteered because you had no evidence of his ability. However, there exist reasons not to volunteer even with such evidence; there are concerns beyond just the initial claim that are both reasonable and obvious. My confusion is why holding such concerns somehow invalids the belief.

Your quote about putting ourselves in situations where we are in trouble without God's intervention relates. Why would this matter? More to the point, why would reluctance to make oneself necessarily dependent upon God imply a lack of belief rather than a reasonable sense of caution based on concerns beyond just the initial claim? It seems to me that such self-awareness should be considered responsible and understandable on God's part.
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Maikuru
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7/14/2012 3:30:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 2:25:21 AM, stubs wrote:

I think the self sacrifice flows from the belief. He has a great quote, "But God doesn't call us to be comfortable. He calls us to trust Him so completely that we are unafraid to put ourselves in situations where we will be in trouble if He doesn't come through." That is from his book crazy love.

I suppose a good example of that would be the family who need money for surgery and trust God to help them find the funds. If they do, praise be to God. If they don't, everything happens for a reason or they are not true believers or the issue was not worthy of God's intervention or etc. etc. Such reasoning is a win-win for God. Obviously that doesn't speak to his existence but rather the rationalizations humans use to perpetuate the concept.
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Kinesis
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7/14/2012 4:13:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 2:25:21 AM, stubs wrote:
I think the self sacrifice flows from the belief. He has a great quote, "But God doesn't call us to be comfortable. He calls us to trust Him so completely that we are unafraid to put ourselves in situations where we will be in trouble if He doesn't come through." That is from his book crazy love.

This seems like a testable claim. Why don't you pray for protection and then stand in the middle of a busy motorway?
Wallstreetatheist
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7/14/2012 4:21:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 4:13:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 7/14/2012 2:25:21 AM, stubs wrote:
I think the self sacrifice flows from the belief. He has a great quote, "But God doesn't call us to be comfortable. He calls us to trust Him so completely that we are unafraid to put ourselves in situations where we will be in trouble if He doesn't come through." That is from his book crazy love.

This seems like a testable claim. Why don't you pray for protection and then stand in the middle of a busy motorway?

lol, that kind of testing prayer has been done before. For example, parents who have faith healings performed on their infants in the US instead of taking them to the hospital have a 270% higher infant mortality rate.
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Wallstreetatheist
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7/14/2012 4:21:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/12/2012 12:49:03 PM, stubs wrote:


So that's what it would sound like if Tom Waits gave a sermon.
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Rational_Thinker9119
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7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 4:21:00 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 7/14/2012 4:13:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 7/14/2012 2:25:21 AM, stubs wrote:
I think the self sacrifice flows from the belief. He has a great quote, "But God doesn't call us to be comfortable. He calls us to trust Him so completely that we are unafraid to put ourselves in situations where we will be in trouble if He doesn't come through." That is from his book crazy love.

This seems like a testable claim. Why don't you pray for protection and then stand in the middle of a busy motorway?

lol, that kind of testing prayer has been done before. For example, parents who have faith healings performed on their infants in the US instead of taking them to the hospital have a 270% higher infant mortality rate.

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.
Stephen_Hawkins
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7/14/2012 8:46:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The man who stood up, waived the liability and was next to the shot is the idiot, still. If you think that he made the wrong decision, then you can pretty much see the atheist, or even skepticist's, position.
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stubs
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7/14/2012 9:09:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 4:13:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 7/14/2012 2:25:21 AM, stubs wrote:
I think the self sacrifice flows from the belief. He has a great quote, "But God doesn't call us to be comfortable. He calls us to trust Him so completely that we are unafraid to put ourselves in situations where we will be in trouble if He doesn't come through." That is from his book crazy love.

This seems like a testable claim. Why don't you pray for protection and then stand in the middle of a busy motorway?

I'm sorry I know it's nearly impossible to know the context of the quote if you haven't read the book. He is talking about doing unsafe things for God. By this he would mean living how some of the early Christians lived. Many of them went out proclaiming the truth of the resurrection till there death. He would be referring to things like that. Not doing stupid stuff and then praying God will save you haha.
stubs
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7/14/2012 9:12:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 2:40:35 AM, Maikuru wrote:

Oh, I know lol. My point is that these criticisms translate. You wouldn't have volunteered because you had no evidence of his ability. However, there exist reasons not to volunteer even with such evidence; there are concerns beyond just the initial claim that are both reasonable and obvious. My confusion is why holding such concerns somehow invalids the belief.


I think you are getting more to an apologetics side of why would we believe in this God if we don't see reasons too. That is a whole different topic. Think about the audience he was speaking too. Most in the conference were probably already Christian. So this was not an attempt to try and persuade people to believe in God and Jesus. It was to make people who already believed think about how much they believed.
stubs
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7/14/2012 9:15:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

I think some of what you said was biblical haha. There's times when Jesus is like, "Don't just pray that someone who doesn't have food will get food. Go give them food."
tyler90az
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7/14/2012 3:02:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 9:15:15 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

I think some of what you said was biblical haha. There's times when Jesus is like, "Don't just pray that someone who doesn't have food will get food. Go give them food."

That is true. We are expected to do all we can do, then Jesus will step in.
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ScottyDouglas
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7/14/2012 4:25:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2012 4:21:00 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 7/14/2012 4:13:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 7/14/2012 2:25:21 AM, stubs wrote:
I think the self sacrifice flows from the belief. He has a great quote, "But God doesn't call us to be comfortable. He calls us to trust Him so completely that we are unafraid to put ourselves in situations where we will be in trouble if He doesn't come through." That is from his book crazy love.

This seems like a testable claim. Why don't you pray for protection and then stand in the middle of a busy motorway?

lol, that kind of testing prayer has been done before. For example, parents who have faith healings performed on their infants in the US instead of taking them to the hospital have a 270% higher infant mortality rate.

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

How do you know that? You don't!
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twocupcakes
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7/14/2012 5:01:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

In my opinion I think he attempted to show that belief in Christ is not just saying the "sinners prayer." To follow Christ, He calls us to totally lay down our lives. This belief has to just make us say, "Man, Jesus did that for me? I love him so much that I am willing to just do anything for him, anything He calls me to do."

Really? I thought he made the point that "it is stupid to risk everything for a belief, and disregard reason". He asserts that shooting the gun at the balloon was the stupidest thing he has ever done.

Also, people have taken risks like this in the past. For example, this pastor handled a poisonous snake to show his belief. The snake bit him and the pastor died. http://news.yahoo.com...
Maikuru
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7/14/2012 7:38:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 5:01:47 PM, twocupcakes wrote:

In my opinion I think he attempted to show that belief in Christ is not just saying the "sinners prayer." To follow Christ, He calls us to totally lay down our lives. This belief has to just make us say, "Man, Jesus did that for me? I love him so much that I am willing to just do anything for him, anything He calls me to do."

Really? I thought he made the point that "it is stupid to risk everything for a belief, and disregard reason". He asserts that shooting the gun at the balloon was the stupidest thing he has ever done.

Also, people have taken risks like this in the past. For example, this pastor handled a poisonous snake to show his belief. The snake bit him and the pastor died. http://news.yahoo.com...

His dad died from a similar service in the past: "If I didn't do it, if I'd never gotten back involved, it'd be the same as denying the power and saying it was not real." That sounds eerily similar to the video.
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johnnyboy54
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7/14/2012 7:40:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

Regardless of what you believe, that would be a dick move.
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Maikuru
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7/14/2012 7:47:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:40:29 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

Regardless of what you believe, that would be a dick move.

I don't know. When someone died in my family, everyone I saw told me they'd pray for me and all I wanted to do was tell them not to bother. While they sincerely thought they were doing me some service, I sincerely thought they were both wasting their time and, considering this individual and I are open non-believers, being condescending. I didn't say anything, though. I thought it would be a dick move lol.
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Wallstreetatheist
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7/14/2012 7:49:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:40:29 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

Regardless of what you believe, that would be a dick move.

Not if RationalThinker was injured or in danger of bleeding out. If his own life was at stake, that would be a completely rational response: DO SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY WORKS, CALL AN AMBULANCE, GET A MEDICAL KIT, etc..
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Wallstreetatheist
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7/14/2012 7:50:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:47:04 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 7/14/2012 7:40:29 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

Regardless of what you believe, that would be a dick move.

I don't know. When someone died in my family, everyone I saw told me they'd pray for me and all I wanted to do was tell them not to bother. While they sincerely thought they were doing me some service, I sincerely thought they were both wasting their time and, considering this individual and I are open non-believers, being condescending. I didn't say anything, though. I thought it would be a dick move lol.

Yeah, that kind of "praying for someone" is demonstrably ineffective, but praying for yourself, I think you will agree, has a placebo effect of some sort.
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Wallstreetatheist
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7/14/2012 7:52:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:49:15 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 7/14/2012 7:40:29 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

Regardless of what you believe, that would be a dick move.

Not if RationalThinker was injured or in danger of bleeding out. If his own life was at stake, that would be a completely rational response: DO SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY WORKS, CALL AN AMBULANCE, GET A MEDICAL KIT, etc..

This is also extremely important in the reality of the situation that children die every day during faith healings from medically treatable and survivable conditions.
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Maikuru
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7/14/2012 7:56:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 9:12:24 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/14/2012 2:40:35 AM, Maikuru wrote:

Oh, I know lol. My point is that these criticisms translate. You wouldn't have volunteered because you had no evidence of his ability. However, there exist reasons not to volunteer even with such evidence; there are concerns beyond just the initial claim that are both reasonable and obvious. My confusion is why holding such concerns somehow invalids the belief.


I think you are getting more to an apologetics side of why would we believe in this God if we don't see reasons too. That is a whole different topic. Think about the audience he was speaking too. Most in the conference were probably already Christian. So this was not an attempt to try and persuade people to believe in God and Jesus. It was to make people who already believed think about how much they believed.

I'm not asking why someone should believe, I'm asking why being cautious in decision-making somehow lessens belief. Like you said in another post, no one would fault you for not walking into the street and expecting God to save you, but that is exactly the mindset the video advocates. As the speaker said, who believed; the ones who raised their hands or the one with the balloon in his mouth?
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Ore_Ele
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7/14/2012 8:00:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:40:29 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

Regardless of what you believe, that would be a dick move.

If they said that to me, I'd say "fine, enjoy your inoperable cancer."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Maikuru
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7/14/2012 8:08:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:00:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/14/2012 7:40:29 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:35:45 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

If someone said they were going to pray for me, I would tell them, why don't you do something that actually works? Trying to telepathically communicate with your imaginary friend isn't going to help anyone.

Regardless of what you believe, that would be a dick move.

If they said that to me, I'd say "fine, enjoy your inoperable cancer."

lol dayum
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stubs
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7/15/2012 12:07:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 5:01:47 PM, twocupcakes wrote:

Really? I thought he made the point that "it is stupid to risk everything for a belief, and disregard reason". He asserts that shooting the gun at the balloon was the stupidest thing he has ever done.


Haha way out of context cupcakes. He said it was stupid because if he actually hit the guy the lawyers came up to him and said he could have lost the whole church which is why it was the stupidest thing he had ever done.

Also, people have taken risks like this in the past. For example, this pastor handled a poisonous snake to show his belief. The snake bit him and the pastor died. http://news.yahoo.com...

Didn't read the article but I have heard of it before. Doesn't affect what I am saying tho
stubs
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7/15/2012 12:13:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:56:08 PM, Maikuru wrote:

I'm not asking why someone should believe, I'm asking why being cautious in decision-making somehow lessens belief.

I don't think it's about going out and doing stupid stuff. I think he is pointing to being courageous with things that Christ has told us to do (such as make disciples). I think that would be more of what he was talking about based on his book Crazy Love as well as many sermons I have heard, especially the one at Passion.

Like you said in another post, no one would fault you for not walking into the street and expecting God to save you, but that is exactly the mindset the video advocates. As the speaker said, who believed; the ones who raised their hands or the one with the balloon in his mouth?

I disagree the video promotes going out to the street and praying you wont get hit. There is definetly a difference between being crazy courageous for God, and being an idiot.
Maikuru
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7/15/2012 12:36:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 12:13:14 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/14/2012 7:56:08 PM, Maikuru wrote:

I'm not asking why someone should believe, I'm asking why being cautious in decision-making somehow lessens belief.

I don't think it's about going out and doing stupid stuff. I think he is pointing to being courageous with things that Christ has told us to do (such as make disciples). I think that would be more of what he was talking about based on his book Crazy Love as well as many sermons I have heard, especially the one at Passion.

That all relates to below. You haven't addressed my point above.

I disagree the video promotes going out to the street and praying you wont get hit. There is definetly a difference between being crazy courageous for God, and being an idiot.

Starting at 2:50:

"What does it mean to believe? Is it those of you who raise your hand during a prayer...or is it those that are willing to stick this thing between your teeth? And you go 'You know what Jesus? I'll die for you...I'm going to follow you to the end, no matter what it means.'"

Whatever distinction you are drawing between courageousness and idiocy are not expressed in that video. They aren't even implied. In fact, the exact opposite is implied. The same goes for that Crazy Love quote:

"But God doesn't call us to be comfortable. He calls us to trust Him so completely that we are unafraid to put ourselves in situations where we will be in trouble if He doesn't come through."

That might have some other context but it seems right up that video's alley right now.
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