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What afterlife?

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/13/2012 11:47:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Whether or not one considers the mind a separate substance, it is difficult to deny that consciousness is necessarily dependent on the physical brain. As we were not conscious when our brains did not exist, prior to birth, what suggests that we will still be conscious when our brains permanently shut down?

The consciousness you currently perceive is your identity and must follow you to heaven or hell. However, the consciousness you currently perceive cannot exist without the brain. Therefore, when we die and the brain ceases to function, we are nothing, and we have no conscious identity. How then, with our sense of self nonexistent can we continue to exist in another realm?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/13/2012 11:54:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
what really shows that the brain is what determines the mind (for those who would Still cling to dualism) is the fact that Damaging the brain is shown to affect the manner in which you think... how you're able to think.. and even what you care about..

it affects these things in a Regular and predictable manner depending upon what area of the brain is affected. this is clear evidence that the nature of your physical brain is what determines how you think.

Given this.. one who claims otherwise is just absurdly ridiculous.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/14/2012 12:04:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/13/2012 11:47:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
Whether or not one considers the mind a separate substance, it is difficult to deny that consciousness is necessarily dependent on the physical brain. As we were not conscious when our brains did not exist, prior to birth, what suggests that we will still be conscious when our brains permanently shut down?

The consciousness you currently perceive is your identity and must follow you to heaven or hell. However, the consciousness you currently perceive cannot exist without the brain. Therefore, when we die and the brain ceases to function, we are nothing, and we have no conscious identity. How then, with our sense of self nonexistent can we continue to exist in another realm?

You know that Christianity posits a bodily resurrection, right?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/14/2012 12:27:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 12:04:16 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
You know that Christianity posits a bodily resurrection, right?

why bother with the body when it's unnecessary?

if there are two wholly separate, distinct, substances... you shouldn't need one to complement the other...

you shouldn't need Body for Soul.
as wholly Separate substances the one shouldn't link up to, rely on, or affect the other.

The only explanation (other than the Right one) for your Mind screwing up when you get brain injuries is Magic.. "God did it".
Tricksy god though making it happen in such regular patterns... Trying to fool us is he? o.O
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
baggins
Posts: 855
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7/14/2012 2:02:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/13/2012 11:47:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
Whether or not one considers the mind a separate substance, it is difficult to deny that consciousness is necessarily dependent on the physical brain. As we were not conscious when our brains did not exist, prior to birth, what suggests that we will still be conscious when our brains permanently shut down?

The consciousness you currently perceive is your identity and must follow you to heaven or hell. However, the consciousness you currently perceive cannot exist without the brain. Therefore, when we die and the brain ceases to function, we are nothing, and we have no conscious identity. How then, with our sense of self nonexistent can we continue to exist in another realm?

Initially we were in form of just some body liquids. Our of that God made changed us to human beings with capacity to distinguish between rights and wrongs. Definitely God is capable of recreating this consciousness (and perhaps giving it a new body).
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/14/2012 8:44:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe in an "afterlife", but not the kind any Christian believes in. I don't believe consciousness survives past death, common sense and everything we know about science makes that every unlikely. I believe that you live on in the works you left behind in this world when you die, and in the memories of the people you effected. My grandmothers body is gone along with the functioning brain that provided consciousness for her, but she lives on in my brain and I still have the paintings she made on my wall. These paintings are an extension of her, her creativity, so she is not really gone.

The afterlife I believe in, is more metaphorical than literal. However, it is important none the less.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/14/2012 11:26:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 12:04:16 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/13/2012 11:47:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
Whether or not one considers the mind a separate substance, it is difficult to deny that consciousness is necessarily dependent on the physical brain. As we were not conscious when our brains did not exist, prior to birth, what suggests that we will still be conscious when our brains permanently shut down?

The consciousness you currently perceive is your identity and must follow you to heaven or hell. However, the consciousness you currently perceive cannot exist without the brain. Therefore, when we die and the brain ceases to function, we are nothing, and we have no conscious identity. How then, with our sense of self nonexistent can we continue to exist in another realm?

You know that Christianity posits a bodily resurrection, right?

I second Pop here.
Christianity does not suggest we exist without the need of a body.
To give a modern image, our consciousness is housed and then downloaded into a new body.

None of the neuroscienctific studies coming out detracts from Christianity, but affirms it. Christianity has always stated we have need of a body to house our soul. Our souls are not independent of our bodies.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/14/2012 12:31:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 11:26:00 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/14/2012 12:04:16 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/13/2012 11:47:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
Whether or not one considers the mind a separate substance, it is difficult to deny that consciousness is necessarily dependent on the physical brain. As we were not conscious when our brains did not exist, prior to birth, what suggests that we will still be conscious when our brains permanently shut down?

The consciousness you currently perceive is your identity and must follow you to heaven or hell. However, the consciousness you currently perceive cannot exist without the brain. Therefore, when we die and the brain ceases to function, we are nothing, and we have no conscious identity. How then, with our sense of self nonexistent can we continue to exist in another realm?

You know that Christianity posits a bodily resurrection, right?

I second Pop here.
Christianity does not suggest we exist without the need of a body.
To give a modern image, our consciousness is housed and then downloaded into a new body.

None of the neuroscienctific studies coming out detracts from Christianity, but affirms it. Christianity has always stated we have need of a body to house our soul. Our souls are not independent of our bodies.

So what happens to the "soul" when your body is rotted, dead, and buried in a cemetery? What is it that is in heaven? Your physical body?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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7/14/2012 12:34:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:44:22 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I believe in an "afterlife", but not the kind any Christian believes in. I don't believe consciousness survives past death, common sense and everything we know about science makes that every unlikely. I believe that you live on in the works you left behind in this world when you die, and in the memories of the people you effected. My grandmothers body is gone along with the functioning brain that provided consciousness for her, but she lives on in my brain and I still have the paintings she made on my wall. These paintings are an extension of her, her creativity, so she is not really gone.

The afterlife I believe in, is more metaphorical than literal. However, it is important none the less.

Oh lordy.

You dun brought out the whole memorial afterlife. That doesn't count (even though it's true. :D).

In any event, under that idea, all afterlifes are finite.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/14/2012 1:39:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 12:34:32 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:44:22 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I believe in an "afterlife", but not the kind any Christian believes in. I don't believe consciousness survives past death, common sense and everything we know about science makes that every unlikely. I believe that you live on in the works you left behind in this world when you die, and in the memories of the people you effected. My grandmothers body is gone along with the functioning brain that provided consciousness for her, but she lives on in my brain and I still have the paintings she made on my wall. These paintings are an extension of her, her creativity, so she is not really gone.

The afterlife I believe in, is more metaphorical than literal. However, it is important none the less.

Oh lordy.

You dun brought out the whole memorial afterlife. That doesn't count (even though it's true. :D).
It counts metaphorically, not literally. As I mentioned, this was all I was referring to initially in the first place. A more of a poetic sense of an afterlife, than a conscious afterlife.

In any event, under that idea, all afterlifes are finite.

I would agree. When the world as we know it ends, memories will be lost along with the works.