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What you still believe?

Wallstreetatheist
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7/14/2012 7:57:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let's assume the hypothetical that all religions were proven totally false and lacking in any truth value about metaphysical claims, scientific claims, and historical events. Would you continue believing in your particular religion, sect, and denomination because it consoles you, feels familiar, and you enjoy it? What reasons would you give for continuing to believe?

Don't debate the hypothetical, just explain the reasons for continuing or discontinuing belief.
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/14/2012 8:04:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:57:54 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Let's assume the hypothetical that all religions were proven totally false and lacking in any truth value about metaphysical claims, scientific claims, and historical events. Would you continue believing in your particular religion, sect, and denomination because it consoles you, feels familiar, and you enjoy it? What reasons would you give for continuing to believe?

Don't debate the hypothetical, just explain the reasons for continuing or discontinuing belief.

Dr. William Lane Craig has said many times that even if he recognized that all the arguments for God's existence were falsified empirically, he would still believe in God because he experiences the "Holy Spirit".
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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7/14/2012 8:07:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:04:35 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2012 7:57:54 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Let's assume the hypothetical that all religions were proven totally false and lacking in any truth value about metaphysical claims, scientific claims, and historical events. Would you continue believing in your particular religion, sect, and denomination because it consoles you, feels familiar, and you enjoy it? What reasons would you give for continuing to believe?

Don't debate the hypothetical, just explain the reasons for continuing or discontinuing belief.

Dr. William Lane Craig has said many times that even if he recognized that all the arguments for God's existence were falsified empirically, he would still believe in God because he experiences the "Holy Spirit".

It's either that or think you're crazy. I'd keep believing in that case, too. I think most people would. I don't recall the study but I remember reading that beliefs actually get stronger immediately following presentation of contradictory information.
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Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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7/14/2012 8:10:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:57:54 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Let's assume the hypothetical that all religions were proven totally false and lacking in any truth value about metaphysical claims, scientific claims, and historical events. Would you continue believing in your particular religion, sect, and denomination because it consoles you, feels familiar, and you enjoy it? What reasons would you give for continuing to believe?

Don't debate the hypothetical, just explain the reasons for continuing or discontinuing belief.


I can't imagine how anyone could disprove my God; but if it was established without a doubt; i'd still live a similar life-style, there isn't much i do now that i wouldn't then.
maybe i'd stop ignoring all my public admirers; prolly bone a couple ex-gf's.. who knows? lol
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/14/2012 8:24:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:57:54 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Let's assume the hypothetical that all religions were proven totally false and lacking in any truth value about metaphysical claims, scientific claims, and historical events. Would you continue believing in your particular religion, sect, and denomination because it consoles you, feels familiar, and you enjoy it? What reasons would you give for continuing to believe?

Don't debate the hypothetical, just explain the reasons for continuing or discontinuing belief.

Though I am not religious, I would like to give my thoughts.

If it was absolutely proven false, I do not think people would believe, simply because belief isn't really a choice. If it's proven to you to be completely wrong, then you know it's wrong, and have no choice but to believe it's wrong. Knowledge factors into belief. If you have knowledge that something is false you have not choice but to believe it is false. People may want to believe it's right (I myself would very much love to return to Christianity, or another religion, if I could alleviate my skepticism), but if you know it's wrong, it doesn't matter whether you want it to be right or not.

On a slightly different matter, if every single rational argument for the validity of religious beliefs were proven wrong, people would still believe. William Craig made the claim that even if all the arguments for Gods existence were proven wrong, he would still believe. The simple reason being that he believes that he has experienced the holy spirit. Many people have undoubable belief that the holy spirit is in them or something. It's belief based not on rational grounds but personal ones.

Tl;dr: If religion were 100% proven wrong, people wouldn't believe. If all the logical arguments for God were proven 100% wrong, even intellectuals would still believe.
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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7/14/2012 8:32:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:12:23 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I was assuming that by disproving, it was proven that the personal experiences weren't real either.

You don't need a religion to have a spiritual experience. People in every religion, meditation group, through nature exploring, art and music, relationships, powerful experiences can feel the same types of personal experiences that Christians feel when they say they feel the holy spirit. I used to be an Assemblies of God Christian, I know what it feels like. It's attainable through many different avenues of psychological stimulation. It's not exclusively a Christian or Muslim phenomenon; I've felt similar feelings in nature, playing music, and meditating. Atheists are not in principle closed to spiritual experience and feelings of awe, transcendent love, peace, joy, etc.
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stubs
Posts: 1,887
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7/15/2012 12:23:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:12:23 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I was assuming that by disproving, it was proven that the personal experiences weren't real either.

Same
stubs
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7/15/2012 12:24:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:32:44 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:12:23 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I was assuming that by disproving, it was proven that the personal experiences weren't real either.

You don't need a religion to have a spiritual experience. People in every religion, meditation group, through nature exploring, art and music, relationships, powerful experiences can feel the same types of personal experiences that Christians feel when they say they feel the holy spirit. I used to be an Assemblies of God Christian, I know what it feels like. It's attainable through many different avenues of psychological stimulation. It's not exclusively a Christian or Muslim phenomenon; I've felt similar feelings in nature, playing music, and meditating. Atheists are not in principle closed to spiritual experience and feelings of awe, transcendent love, peace, joy, etc.

I believe he is assuming that, in light of the first post, that we would know that feeling did not come from the Christian God.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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7/15/2012 1:56:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 12:24:46 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:32:44 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:12:23 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I was assuming that by disproving, it was proven that the personal experiences weren't real either.

You don't need a religion to have a spiritual experience. People in every religion, meditation group, through nature exploring, art and music, relationships, powerful experiences can feel the same types of personal experiences that Christians feel when they say they feel the holy spirit. I used to be an Assemblies of God Christian, I know what it feels like. It's attainable through many different avenues of psychological stimulation. It's not exclusively a Christian or Muslim phenomenon; I've felt similar feelings in nature, playing music, and meditating. Atheists are not in principle closed to spiritual experience and feelings of awe, transcendent love, peace, joy, etc.

I believe he is assuming that, in light of the first post, that we would know that feeling did not come from the Christian God.

No, the only thing that is to be hypothetical is that all religions were proven false. Would you still go through the motions of religious worship, pray, etc. when you know your God is false?
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The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/15/2012 2:40:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: well we all experience "breath air" from time to time.

That is what the definition of the spirit was at the time of the Bible. was BREATH AIR!> From Greek, right? Byzantium.

Ghost Comes from violent Air.

Air was mystical to the Greeks because it makes sounds and move things.
That is the definition in the BIBLE. AIR HOLY AIR< aka SPECIAL AIR

The Definition got lost, and its never really been substituted there is no real consistent definition of Spirit. What so every in the western sense. So there is not way do even know if what you personal experience was God or not! So you should think twice about the personal claims. What is that thing that you are claiming.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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7/15/2012 2:42:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Edit!

At 7/15/2012 2:40:22 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: well we all experience "breath air" from time to time.

That is what the definition of the spirit was at the time of the Bible. was BREATH AIR!> From Greek, right? Byzantium.

Ghost Comes from "violent Air".

Air was mystical to the Greeks because it was invisible and yet it makes sounds and move things.
That is the definition in the BIBLE. AIR HOLY AIR< aka SPECIAL AIR

The Definition got lost, and its never really been substituted there is no real consistent definition of Spirit, What so ever in the western sense. So there is not way to even know if your personal experience was God or not! So you should think twice about the personal claims. What is that thing that you are claiming??????
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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7/15/2012 3:02:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 2:42:37 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Edit!

At 7/15/2012 2:40:22 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: well we all experience "breath air" from time to time.

That is what the definition of the spirit was at the time of the Bible. was BREATH AIR!> From Greek, right? Byzantium.

This was because when people spoke, they blow air out so they thought that was the feeling of thier spirit. In Pythagorianism, in greek it was bad to eat beans. Because farting meant you were losing your spirits(I say, who wants those spirits anyways.)

Ghost Comes from "violent Air". Because of breath air they thought violent are was the spirits of dead people. Right? ...

Air was mystical to the Greeks because it was invisible and yet it makes sounds and move things. Its harder for us to grasp why they thought that because its common sense now. Kinda.(some people still get spoked by it.)

Those are the is the definitions in the BIBLE. Holy Ghost. aka SPECIAL AIR.
There is no definition for divine of Holy that is not circular.

As we learned more about the world the Definitions got lost, and its never really been substituted there is no real consistent definition of Spirit or Holy Ghost Whatsoever in the western sense. So there is no way to even know if your personal experience was God or not! So you should think twice about the personal claims. What is that thing that you are claiming?????? (can you explain it with out those words. if so why is that God.??
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Cody_Franklin
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7/15/2012 10:30:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 8:07:39 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 7/14/2012 8:04:35 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2012 7:57:54 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Let's assume the hypothetical that all religions were proven totally false and lacking in any truth value about metaphysical claims, scientific claims, and historical events. Would you continue believing in your particular religion, sect, and denomination because it consoles you, feels familiar, and you enjoy it? What reasons would you give for continuing to believe?

Don't debate the hypothetical, just explain the reasons for continuing or discontinuing belief.

Dr. William Lane Craig has said many times that even if he recognized that all the arguments for God's existence were falsified empirically, he would still believe in God because he experiences the "Holy Spirit".

It's either that or think you're crazy. I'd keep believing in that case, too. I think most people would. I don't recall the study but I remember reading that beliefs actually get stronger immediately following presentation of contradictory information.

Yeah, backfire effect. I also have a paper about the emotion-belief feedback loop if you wanna read it.
Cody_Franklin
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7/15/2012 10:31:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:57:54 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Let's assume the hypothetical that all religions were proven totally false and lacking in any truth value about metaphysical claims, scientific claims, and historical events. Would you continue believing in your particular religion, sect, and denomination because it consoles you, feels familiar, and you enjoy it? What reasons would you give for continuing to believe?

Don't debate the hypothetical, just explain the reasons for continuing or discontinuing belief.

Well, if they're claiming faith, then it's by definition prior to judgments of rationality or irrationality. So, even if you made a strong inductive case against God, it's sort of irrelevant--they're already taking the axiomist route with God anyway.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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7/15/2012 11:50:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 1:56:17 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:

No, the only thing that is to be hypothetical is that all religions were proven false. Would you still go through the motions of religious worship, pray, etc. when you know your God is false?

Well for it to be truly proven false wouldn't you have to prove the personal experience's were not from God? If you proved that God did not exist and that my personal experiences were not from God then I would say there is no reason to believe I would still go to church and pray and stuff. But again I mean it is a really hypothetical thing to say haha
popculturepooka
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7/15/2012 1:01:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/14/2012 7:57:54 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Let's assume the hypothetical that all religions were proven totally false and lacking in any truth value about metaphysical claims, scientific claims, and historical events. Would you continue believing in your particular religion, sect, and denomination because it consoles you, feels familiar, and you enjoy it? What reasons would you give for continuing to believe?

Don't debate the hypothetical, just explain the reasons for continuing or discontinuing belief.

No.
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The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/15/2012 5:17:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 11:50:14 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/15/2012 1:56:17 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:

No, the only thing that is to be hypothetical is that all religions were proven false. Would you still go through the motions of religious worship, pray, etc. when you know your God is false?

Well for it to be truly proven false wouldn't you have to prove the personal experience's were not from God? If you proved that God did not exist and that my personal experiences were not from God then I would say there is no reason to believe I would still go to church and pray and stuff. But again I mean it is a really hypothetical thing to say haha

The Fool: no you have to proof they are from God.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL