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Peer Reviewed Flatland and the Bible

Gileandos
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7/15/2012 7:34:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Goal of this article is to be academic, but constrained to be a 'readable' work for the majority. The goal is to impart the practical concepts discussed. We are going to work toward a basic understanding of the science behind many of the ridiculed 'magical' stories contained within the Bible. We will see that indeed the Biblical accounts of talking snakes and donkeys, angels appearing and disappearing and even Jesus Himself appearing suddenly in a locked room are entirely supported by the strongest form of science. Math.

So as an outline we will:
- review the flatland theorem
- review Granville's peer reviewed work titled "The fourth dimension and the bible"
- review the acounts recorded in the BIble and discuss how they are supported by this theorem.

I. Flatland Theorem.
Originally flatland was a novelic idea founded in a mathematical concept. Immanuel Kant himself discussed the idea of multiple dimensions in much of his early works.
His first published work "Thoughts on the True Estimation of Living Forces" Kant states:
"If It Is possible," he says, "that there are developments of other dimensions of space, It is also very probable that God has somewhere produced them. For his works have all the grandeur and variety that can possibly be comprised."[1]

The flatland theorem, from which it now derives its namesake expounded upon the concept of higher spatial geometry to put a practical analogy to it, to popularize this important understanding. This allowed for a review of this information outside of the mathematical community.
The novel 'Flatland' written and developed by Edwin A. Abbot [2][3]
Edwin Abbot was a preacher, english professor, natural philsopher and author during the late nineteenth century.
This novel was written in 1887 to point out the social woes of the society in England and the world over. This was during the time when Darwin was out justifying the oppression of the lesser races, Abbot set out to refute this oppression.
Abbot's work is more meaningful to mathematics than Darwin's work was to biology. Darwin's notions have been proven false, where Abbot's have been proven correct. The book is available online and a very interesting read indeed, cited below for the reader. [2]
This novel analogized how to understand mathematical dimensions. It predicted perfectly how such higher dimensional entities would be actualized. It made predictions that reverberted within mainstream culture today. From the comic book superheroes in the 60's to movies like 'Visiters from the fourth dimension'. Our entertainment industry has had no end to the delight it has pulled from this novel.
The traits and abilities of such creatures are today very well known and popularized by movies and comic books.
Prior to all of the rampant entertainment Icons, this work of Abbot led William Granville to consider something very very profound, in the 1920's, that today permeates the reality of Theology and Philosophy.

II. William Anthony Granville "The fourth dimension and the Bible"
First lets answer the question who was William Granville?
William Anthony Granville's credentials [4];
- For fifteen years, beginning in 1895, he was professor of mathematics at Yale, and was awarded a Ph.D in philosophy from Yale in 1897.
- He published several textbooks on mathematics that were widely used throughout the United States.
- In 1910 he was elected to serve as president of Gettysburg College by a unanimous vote
William Granville though a mathematician and Philsopher was not a theologian. Despite this he could not help but notice the striking similarities of the abilities described by the flatland theorem and the abilities of the beings described in the Bible.
William Granville wrote a book on the fourth dimension and the Bible. The mathematics portion of this work was peer reviewd by J.W. Young and he stated:
"As a popular introduction to some of the fundamental notions of four-dimensional space, the book is well done"

III. The Theorem described

We will take a quick moment to watch a 10 minute video from atheist Carl Sagan as he describes this theory.
The link should take you directly to the video:

Now I choose Carl Sagan for the obvious reasons to 'calm' the skeptic. This is an atheist, disbeliever teaching this well known mathematical theorem.

What Carl Sagan relays here is a concrete theorem with implications that simply cannot be denied. Any entity would have profound abilities, a few we can be absolutely certain about.
An entity from a higher dimension would have the ability to
- Fly, float, hover in the air
- Be invisible and untouchable yet present in the area
- Appear and disappear as if by magic
- Possess a 'disembodied' voice
- Speak internally to a person.

This is just a few abilities we are certain that such entities would possess.
Carl Sagan speaks to some of these abilities at the 2:14 mark of the video. He speaks on how a being would speak to a person as if the voice were coming from inside the person rather than without.
He speaks to the ability to manifest a presence that would not be easily understood by the 2D creature.

IV. The Biblical accounts offer descriptions of beings called Angels who display these properties.
- Jesus walks on water, Jesus rises in the air at His ascension
- The Bible states that Guardian Angels are with us, present though they are unseen and intangible.
- Jesus appears in a locked and barred room suddenly and disappears in front of disciples equally as sudden.
- There are examples in the Bible of where Satan speaks to Eve as through a snake and The Angel of the Lord speaks to Balaam through a Donkey. The Bible describes and Christian experience details out an internalized communication from the Holy Spirit, in visions and dreams.
Granville cites these himself drawing the obvious lines.

V. Is there scientific support for this theorem?
Can it be denied the major import and relationship these accounts have? I would clearly state uneqivocally that no theologian would deny the import of this relationship.
That atheist talking point about mere magic and fairy tales is no longer tenable. Yet the question might still remain "but is there evidence outside the Bible Accounts and the Theorem to suggest such a dimension exists surrounding ours?"
Now the person unfamiliar with this topic might be quite surprised that within Physics, the existence of an additional spatial dimension is all but certain. Every physicist is expecting CERN to yield evidence confirming this. There is little doubt.
Even if CERN does not yield this evidence as tangible, every physicst will still, with certainty claim it exists.

To show this I quote James Edward Beichler:
"The natural progress of science has brought us back to the point where science again needs to consider the physical reality of a higher-dimensional space. Science must acknowledge the truth that space is four-dimensional and space-time is five- dimensional, as required by accepted physical theories and observations, before it can move forward with a new unified fundamental theory of physical reality." [5]

From Higgs Field theory to Braneworld theories to String Theories to dark matter, all of these media popularized thoughts in physics has within them, that this extra spatial dimension is certain to exist. Here are a couple of articles for reading on this fact of physics [6][7][8]
We see such evidence not just in the Higgs Particle from CERN but in entanglement as clear tangible evidence of this extra spatial dimension.

(Cont)
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 7:36:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
(cont)

Ok Ok Ok, now you might be convinced that theoretical physicists and even physicists in general believe in the extra dimension... but is there any actual, factual proof?
We do indeed we have experimental validation via entanglement and even virtual particles. [9][10]

Here is an enjoyable movie "Called down the rabbit hole" that encapsulates where we stand just 6 years ago with the realm of physics. It points out that the rift between Church and science is closing quickly as the concepts of dimensional theory are answering the questions of the plausibility of extra dimensional creatures on par with Angels as Granville's work called out in the 1920's. It discusses the flatland theorum with the evidences of entanglment and such in context.

Summary:
To my fellow Theologians I quote Granville as he states:
"To satisfy completely human reason any confirmation of our Christian beliefs must come from a source whose authority no one can question. Is there then any department of human knowledge whose foundations rest, not on shifting sand, but on the bed rock of absolute truth? Pure mathematics satisfies this condition ; it is the only exact science that God has revealed to man and the Truths which it contains are the only truths that can be absolutely established thru pure reason."[11]

and

"In view of this it is rather surprising that so few attempts should have been made in the past to throw light from mathematics on the fundamentals of Christianity. This is practically a virgin field for theological research." [12]

Christianity rejoices at the last 12 years of particle physics. We have seen what once was conceptual confirmation of Christianities 'mocked magic' has proven to be held to be conceptual actuality to physicists today.

Let the Theologians preach loudly.

I also leave you with an image from Salvidor Dali who painted Jesus crucified on a Tesseract in 1954. The implications of mathematics in its comfirmation of the Christian faith is profound.[13]

Sources:
[1] "Thoughts on the True Estimation of Living Forces" Immanuel Kant 1774
[2] http://www.geom.uiuc.edu...
[3] http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk...
[4] http://www.gettysburg.edu...
[5] http://www.scientificexploration.org...
[6] http://www.nature.com...
[7] http://today.duke.edu...
[8] http://spaceandhistory.blogspot.com...
Number 8 here is an interesting easy to read discussion on the Higgs field theory.
[9] http://phys.org...
[10] http://www.lhc.ac.uk...
[11]"The fourth dimension and the Bible" Granville 1922 - Preface V.
[12] "The fourth dimension and the Bible" Granville 1922 - Preface Vii.
[13] http://im-possible.info...
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/15/2012 8:05:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 7:34:36 PM, Gileandos wrote:
This is just a few abilities we are certain that such entities would possess.
Carl Sagan speaks to some of these abilities at the 2:14 mark of the video. He speaks on how a being would speak to a person as if the voice were coming from inside the person rather than without.
He speaks to the ability to manifest a presence that would not be easily understood by the 2D creature.


IV. The Biblical accounts offer descriptions of beings called Angels who display these properties.
- Jesus walks on water, Jesus rises in the air at His ascension
- The Bible states that Guardian Angels are with us, present though they are unseen and intangible.
- Jesus appears in a locked and barred room suddenly and disappears in front of disciples equally as sudden.
- There are examples in the Bible of where Satan speaks to Eve as through a snake and The Angel of the Lord speaks to Balaam through a Donkey. The Bible describes and Christian experience details out an internalized communication from the Holy Spirit, in visions and dreams.
Granville cites these himself drawing the obvious lines.


V. Is there scientific support for this theorem?
Can it be denied the major import and relationship these accounts have? I would clearly state uneqivocally that no theologian would deny the import of this relationship.
That atheist talking point about mere magic and fairy tales is no longer tenable. Yet the question might still remain "but is there evidence outside the Bible Accounts and the Theorem to suggest such a dimension exists surrounding ours?"
Now the person unfamiliar with this topic might be quite surprised that within Physics, the existence of an additional spatial dimension is all but certain. Every physicist is expecting CERN to yield evidence confirming this. There is little doubt.
Even if CERN does not yield this evidence as tangible, every physicst will still, with certainty claim it exists.

To show this I quote James Edward Beichler:
"The natural progress of science has brought us back to the point where science again needs to consider the physical reality of a higher-dimensional space. Science must acknowledge the truth that space is four-dimensional and space-time is five- dimensional, as required by accepted physical theories and observations, before it can move forward with a new unified fundamental theory of physical reality." [5]

From Higgs Field theory to Braneworld theories to String Theories to dark matter, all of these media popularized thoughts in physics has within them, that this extra spatial dimension is certain to exist. Here are a couple of articles for reading on this fact of physics [6][7][8]
We see such evidence not just in the Higgs Particle from CERN but in entanglement as clear tangible evidence of this extra spatial dimension.

(Cont)

Gil, this is absolutely pathetic if you plan to relate this to the below challenge:

"If you would like to claim that a talking snake and donkey are rooted in empirically measurable, falsifiable biological explanation that doesn't invoke some teleological designer, then yes, I am mocking such stories."

First off, READ WHAT I WROTE. If you don't have the ability to explain a talking snake without appealing to the existence of a teleological designer capable of any action he/she please at any time depending on what is written in a book you appeal to without question, you haven't made an even remotely interesting scientific claim.

The fifth dimension in a "flatland" sense can (and has) been invoked to explain ghosts, aliens, monsters, psychics, teleporters, telekinesis, fast-than-light travel, and other such things.

To say that the flatland story can support Jesus and angels and God is about as trivial as claiming flatland supports alien abductions. To say that the fifth dimension explains TALKING SNAKES it like claiming the fifth dimension explains car engines because aliens in those dimension control every chemical reaction.

Your argument amounts to: "Snakes can talk because we don't know what the fifth dimension can do."

GIL'S ARGUMENT:

If you grind lead and concrete together in a stone bowl, you can get atomically pure gold. However, this only happens when there is a fifth-dimensional interaction with the lead and concrete that creates atomically pure gold.

Because a fifth dimension exists and we can empirically detect it, you have no way to know that you can't gain atomically pure gold, and therefore you should take this theory seriously.

FAIL!!!!!!!!!!
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 8:10:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Winope,
I am stunned. Your vast abilities continue to impress me. A completely unknown field of scientific study to you and you digested in just 30 minutes!

And you destroyed a peer reviewed work describing all of these things in a mere one post!

On the serious side, please reread. If you would like to read Granville's Book, I can email it. I do not know where there is a copy available for free, but I have a pdf version scanned in.
JaxsonRaine
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7/15/2012 8:17:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Wow Gil. Nice try.

Another dimension might exist, and if it does it could be possible to explain the events of the Bible.

A far cry from your original claim that science empirically proves that these events were highly likely.

You know what? There are an infinite number of possible explanations for why you are wrong, so it is highly likely that you are wrong.

Thanks for the laughs today Gil.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 8:23:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:05:45 PM, Wnope wrote:
First off, READ WHAT I WROTE. If you don't have the ability to explain a talking snake without appealing to the existence of a teleological designer capable of any action he/she please at any time depending on what is written in a book you appeal to without question, you haven't made an even remotely interesting scientific claim.

Also,
I do not care what you specifically wrote as it is not relevant to the OP. The OP was addressing the mockery of language bias from the atheistic community against the plausibility of such accounts.
Wnope
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7/15/2012 8:25:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:23:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:05:45 PM, Wnope wrote:
First off, READ WHAT I WROTE. If you don't have the ability to explain a talking snake without appealing to the existence of a teleological designer capable of any action he/she please at any time depending on what is written in a book you appeal to without question, you haven't made an even remotely interesting scientific claim.

Also,
I do not care what you specifically wrote as it is not relevant to the OP. The OP was addressing the mockery of language bias from the atheistic community against the plausibility of such accounts.

How plausible do you consider the explanation for turning two elements into gold using the fifth dimension?

Should it be seriously considered when all I have as evidence is the fact that the fifth dimension COULD explain why it happens with a series of just-so stories?
Wnope
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7/15/2012 8:29:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:10:07 PM, Gileandos wrote:
@Winope,
I am stunned. Your vast abilities continue to impress me. A completely unknown field of scientific study to you and you digested in just 30 minutes!

And you destroyed a peer reviewed work describing all of these things in a mere one post!

You describe that as a peer reviewed work.

What journal was it published it? Does "peer review" constitute anything to you other than simply having sources?
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 8:29:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:17:28 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Wow Gil. Nice try.

Another dimension might exist, and if it does it could be possible to explain the events of the Bible.

A far cry from your original claim that science empirically proves that these events were highly likely.

You know what? There are an infinite number of possible explanations for why you are wrong, so it is highly likely that you are wrong.

Thanks for the laughs today Gil.

Really? and here I thought for certain you would relent. Huh.

This is a peer reviewed work that directly lays out that entities that exist within such a dimension would possess all of the abilities necessary for the 'magic' in the Bible to be quite real.

So a (paraphrased) argument is as follows:

P1 The supernaturalism in the bible is scientifically viable if science predicts a theorem that supports the viablity of such accounts.

P2 Science does indeed predict such a concept called Flatland which postulates a fourth dimension affirming such abilities and occurrences.

Conclusion, supernaturalism in the Bible is scientifically viable.
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 8:32:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:25:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:23:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:05:45 PM, Wnope wrote:
First off, READ WHAT I WROTE. If you don't have the ability to explain a talking snake without appealing to the existence of a teleological designer capable of any action he/she please at any time depending on what is written in a book you appeal to without question, you haven't made an even remotely interesting scientific claim.

Also,
I do not care what you specifically wrote as it is not relevant to the OP. The OP was addressing the mockery of language bias from the atheistic community against the plausibility of such accounts.

How plausible do you consider the explanation for turning two elements into gold using the fifth dimension?

Should it be seriously considered when all I have as evidence is the fact that the fifth dimension COULD explain why it happens with a series of just-so stories?

Nothing about an additional dimension postulates such an occurrence would be viable just on basis the fifth dimension exists.

Where as the existence of the dimension does predict the abilities and occurrences contained within the Bible to be viable.
Wnope
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7/15/2012 8:33:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:29:50 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:17:28 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Wow Gil. Nice try.

Another dimension might exist, and if it does it could be possible to explain the events of the Bible.

A far cry from your original claim that science empirically proves that these events were highly likely.

You know what? There are an infinite number of possible explanations for why you are wrong, so it is highly likely that you are wrong.

Thanks for the laughs today Gil.

Really? and here I thought for certain you would relent. Huh.


This is a peer reviewed work that directly lays out that entities that exist within such a dimension would possess all of the abilities necessary for the 'magic' in the Bible to be quite real.

So a (paraphrased) argument is as follows:

P1 The supernaturalism in the bible is scientifically viable if science predicts a theorem that supports the viablity of such accounts.

P2 Science does indeed predict such a concept called Flatland which postulates a fourth dimension affirming such abilities and occurrences.

Conclusion, supernaturalism in the Bible is scientifically viable.

P1. Vampire abduction by aliens via faster-than-light travel is scientific viable if science predicts a theorem that support the viability of such accounts.

P2 Science does indeed predict such a concept called Flatland which postulates extra dimensions through which aliens could use to get vampires (whose activities like turning into bats are explainable by using flatland) and go across galaxies in an instant.

Conclusion: Vampire abduction by aliens via faster-than-light travel is scientificall viable.
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 8:34:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:29:24 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:10:07 PM, Gileandos wrote:
@Winope,
I am stunned. Your vast abilities continue to impress me. A completely unknown field of scientific study to you and you digested in just 30 minutes!

And you destroyed a peer reviewed work describing all of these things in a mere one post!

You describe that as a peer reviewed work.

What journal was it published it? Does "peer review" constitute anything to you other than simply having sources?

Showing you clearly did not read the post.

The book was published in 1922 and reviewed by mathematician J.W. Young. I cited he confirmed the mathematics discussed as 'well done'.
JaxsonRaine
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7/15/2012 8:39:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:29:50 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:17:28 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Wow Gil. Nice try.

Another dimension might exist, and if it does it could be possible to explain the events of the Bible.

A far cry from your original claim that science empirically proves that these events were highly likely.

You know what? There are an infinite number of possible explanations for why you are wrong, so it is highly likely that you are wrong.

Thanks for the laughs today Gil.

Really? and here I thought for certain you would relent. Huh.


This is a peer reviewed work that directly lays out that entities that exist within such a dimension would possess all of the abilities necessary for the 'magic' in the Bible to be quite real.

So a (paraphrased) argument is as follows:

P1 The supernaturalism in the bible is scientifically viable if science predicts a theorem that supports the viablity of such accounts.

P2 Science does indeed predict such a concept called Flatland which postulates a fourth dimension affirming such abilities and occurrences.

Conclusion, supernaturalism in the Bible is scientifically viable.

If X exists, it could explain Y, therefore it is highly likely? That's your argument?

Come on, you said it was highly likely. The theory isn't proved, and if the dimension existed, that also doesn't prove that it is the cause.

If + if does not equal highly likely.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 8:44:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:33:38 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:29:50 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:17:28 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Wow Gil. Nice try.

Another dimension might exist, and if it does it could be possible to explain the events of the Bible.

A far cry from your original claim that science empirically proves that these events were highly likely.

You know what? There are an infinite number of possible explanations for why you are wrong, so it is highly likely that you are wrong.

Thanks for the laughs today Gil.

Really? and here I thought for certain you would relent. Huh.


This is a peer reviewed work that directly lays out that entities that exist within such a dimension would possess all of the abilities necessary for the 'magic' in the Bible to be quite real.

So a (paraphrased) argument is as follows:

P1 The supernaturalism in the bible is scientifically viable if science predicts a theorem that supports the viablity of such accounts.

P2 Science does indeed predict such a concept called Flatland which postulates a fourth dimension affirming such abilities and occurrences.

Conclusion, supernaturalism in the Bible is scientifically viable.

P1. Vampire abduction by aliens via faster-than-light travel is scientific viable if science predicts a theorem that support the viability of such accounts.

Vampire abduction by aliens is of no account. Unless... you are claiming to have witnessed one!?
Second Hundreds of millions of scholars do not assert the existence of vampires or aliens or vampire abductions for that matter.
Dimensional theory predicts abilities.


P2 Science does indeed predict such a concept called Flatland which postulates extra dimensions through which aliens could use to get vampires (whose activities like turning into bats are explainable by using flatland) and go across galaxies in an instant.

Metamorphosis (changing into a bat) is NOT an expected ability under such a theory.


Conclusion: Vampire abduction by aliens via faster-than-light travel is scientificall viable.

Sure you are not winopes little brother? This lack of intellect you usually display is appalling.

***
To compound this the OP was about the mockery of language bias that such concepts are scientifically absurd. When they are not.

Given that these are well attested accounts, whereas your appeal to ridicule here are non consequential you are offering a red herring. Such 'made up' abductions is irrelevant to the actuality of the claims of an entire field of academia.

There are not hundreds of millions of claimants to vampire abductions by aliens.
JaxsonRaine
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7/15/2012 8:44:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:32:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:25:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:23:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:05:45 PM, Wnope wrote:
First off, READ WHAT I WROTE. If you don't have the ability to explain a talking snake without appealing to the existence of a teleological designer capable of any action he/she please at any time depending on what is written in a book you appeal to without question, you haven't made an even remotely interesting scientific claim.

Also,
I do not care what you specifically wrote as it is not relevant to the OP. The OP was addressing the mockery of language bias from the atheistic community against the plausibility of such accounts.

How plausible do you consider the explanation for turning two elements into gold using the fifth dimension?

Should it be seriously considered when all I have as evidence is the fact that the fifth dimension COULD explain why it happens with a series of just-so stories?

Nothing about an additional dimension postulates such an occurrence would be viable just on basis the fifth dimension exists.

Where as the existence of the dimension does predict the abilities and occurrences contained within the Bible to be viable.

It predicts the ability to change water into wine but not lead into gold?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 8:47:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:44:13 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:32:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:25:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:23:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:05:45 PM, Wnope wrote:
First off, READ WHAT I WROTE. If you don't have the ability to explain a talking snake without appealing to the existence of a teleological designer capable of any action he/she please at any time depending on what is written in a book you appeal to without question, you haven't made an even remotely interesting scientific claim.

Also,
I do not care what you specifically wrote as it is not relevant to the OP. The OP was addressing the mockery of language bias from the atheistic community against the plausibility of such accounts.

How plausible do you consider the explanation for turning two elements into gold using the fifth dimension?

Should it be seriously considered when all I have as evidence is the fact that the fifth dimension COULD explain why it happens with a series of just-so stories?

Nothing about an additional dimension postulates such an occurrence would be viable just on basis the fifth dimension exists.

Where as the existence of the dimension does predict the abilities and occurrences contained within the Bible to be viable.

It predicts the ability to change water into wine but not lead into gold?

Technically speaking, chemistry has validated the plausibility of alchemy. We have changed elements by changing proton count via force.

Again, you cannot claim scientific implausibility to validate mockery. You need some other justification, which is sorely lacking.

As with winope's claim of vampires, there is little attestation or scholastic claims to the veracity of the accounts.

Claims distinctions are quite relevant.
Wnope
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7/15/2012 8:58:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:47:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:44:13 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:32:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:25:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:23:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:05:45 PM, Wnope wrote:
First off, READ WHAT I WROTE. If you don't have the ability to explain a talking snake without appealing to the existence of a teleological designer capable of any action he/she please at any time depending on what is written in a book you appeal to without question, you haven't made an even remotely interesting scientific claim.

Also,
I do not care what you specifically wrote as it is not relevant to the OP. The OP was addressing the mockery of language bias from the atheistic community against the plausibility of such accounts.

How plausible do you consider the explanation for turning two elements into gold using the fifth dimension?

Should it be seriously considered when all I have as evidence is the fact that the fifth dimension COULD explain why it happens with a series of just-so stories?

Nothing about an additional dimension postulates such an occurrence would be viable just on basis the fifth dimension exists.

Where as the existence of the dimension does predict the abilities and occurrences contained within the Bible to be viable.

It predicts the ability to change water into wine but not lead into gold?

Technically speaking, chemistry has validated the plausibility of alchemy. We have changed elements by changing proton count via force.

Again, you cannot claim scientific implausibility to validate mockery. You need some other justification, which is sorely lacking.

As with winope's claim of vampires, there is little attestation or scholastic claims to the veracity of the accounts.

Claims distinctions are quite relevant.

I very specifically gave a situation where the technology would not be able to lead to proton reassortment without a fifth dimension.

Furthermore, the fifth dimension PREDICTS that if you combine lead and concrete and get gold, the only mathematically solid explanation is a fifth dimension interaction.

You then go on to say that the fifth dimension explains TALKING SNAKES scientifically simply because parts of biblical mythology match up with what might happen if there was a fifth dimension?

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you claim you have empirical evidence and a falsifiable hypothesis related to talking snakes, and what you give instead is a grand explanation of how god acts in the bible fits what might happen if beings interacted between dimensions, and since god exists the talking snake must be possible.
Wnope
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7/15/2012 9:02:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Btw, the "predictions" Sagan gives are:

- Fly, float, hover in the air
- Be invisible and untouchable yet present in the area
- Appear and disappear as if by magic
- Possess a 'disembodied' voice
- Speak internally to a person.

Meaning: ghosts, monsters, aliens, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation...
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/15/2012 9:06:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:58:13 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:47:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:44:13 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:32:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:25:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:23:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:05:45 PM, Wnope wrote:
First off, READ WHAT I WROTE. If you don't have the ability to explain a talking snake without appealing to the existence of a teleological designer capable of any action he/she please at any time depending on what is written in a book you appeal to without question, you haven't made an even remotely interesting scientific claim.

Also,
I do not care what you specifically wrote as it is not relevant to the OP. The OP was addressing the mockery of language bias from the atheistic community against the plausibility of such accounts.

How plausible do you consider the explanation for turning two elements into gold using the fifth dimension?

Should it be seriously considered when all I have as evidence is the fact that the fifth dimension COULD explain why it happens with a series of just-so stories?

Nothing about an additional dimension postulates such an occurrence would be viable just on basis the fifth dimension exists.

Where as the existence of the dimension does predict the abilities and occurrences contained within the Bible to be viable.

It predicts the ability to change water into wine but not lead into gold?

Technically speaking, chemistry has validated the plausibility of alchemy. We have changed elements by changing proton count via force.

Again, you cannot claim scientific implausibility to validate mockery. You need some other justification, which is sorely lacking.

As with winope's claim of vampires, there is little attestation or scholastic claims to the veracity of the accounts.

Claims distinctions are quite relevant.

I very specifically gave a situation where the technology would not be able to lead to proton reassortment without a fifth dimension.

Nothing stipulates that fifth dimension necessitates proton reassortment.


Furthermore, the fifth dimension PREDICTS that if you combine lead and concrete and get gold, the only mathematically solid explanation is a fifth dimension interaction.

That is a formal fallacy. Clearly NOT the above syllogism or the OP argumentation.
Additionally, nothing about fifth dimension actually predicts it as stated before.


You then go on to say that the fifth dimension explains TALKING SNAKES scientifically simply because parts of biblical mythology match up with what might happen if there was a fifth dimension?

Not at all. Again you did not digest the OP. Specifically,
Let me lay it out more so:
P1 The scientifically predicted being can internalize speech and project speech.
P2 Hundreds of millions of scholars and claimants attest to just such occurrences.
Conclusion - it is unreasonable to claim such accounts are scientifically absurd.


How can you expect to be taken seriously when you claim you have empirical evidence and a falsifiable hypothesis related to talking snakes, and what you give instead is a grand explanation of how god acts in the bible fits what might happen if beings interacted between dimensions, and since god exists the talking snake must be possible.

I expect you to take a Yale Mathematics professor who details out the predictions in a peer reviewed work seriously. I honestly am unconcerned with your opinion with me.
What you are doing is tantamount to all of the losers who bash WLC as a nobody. It is appalling.
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 9:09:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 9:02:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
Btw, the "predictions" Sagan gives are:

- Fly, float, hover in the air
- Be invisible and untouchable yet present in the area
- Appear and disappear as if by magic
- Possess a 'disembodied' voice
- Speak internally to a person.

Meaning: ghosts, monsters, aliens, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation...

Again you need to recognize the essence of a claim distinction.

- Ghosts are in fact affirmed on the Christian worldview, they are just called demons.
- Aliens are also predicted on the Christian worldview, they are just called Angels.
- Teleportation of an immediate sort is indeed predicted via this theorem.

Telepathy and telekinesis are not.

Thank you for finally starting to digest the OP.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/15/2012 9:41:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 9:06:24 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:58:13 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:47:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:44:13 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:32:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:25:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:23:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 8:05:45 PM, Wnope wrote:
First off, READ WHAT I WROTE. If you don't have the ability to explain a talking snake without appealing to the existence of a teleological designer capable of any action he/she please at any time depending on what is written in a book you appeal to without question, you haven't made an even remotely interesting scientific claim.

Also,
I do not care what you specifically wrote as it is not relevant to the OP. The OP was addressing the mockery of language bias from the atheistic community against the plausibility of such accounts.

How plausible do you consider the explanation for turning two elements into gold using the fifth dimension?

Should it be seriously considered when all I have as evidence is the fact that the fifth dimension COULD explain why it happens with a series of just-so stories?

Nothing about an additional dimension postulates such an occurrence would be viable just on basis the fifth dimension exists.

Where as the existence of the dimension does predict the abilities and occurrences contained within the Bible to be viable.

It predicts the ability to change water into wine but not lead into gold?

Technically speaking, chemistry has validated the plausibility of alchemy. We have changed elements by changing proton count via force.

Again, you cannot claim scientific implausibility to validate mockery. You need some other justification, which is sorely lacking.

As with winope's claim of vampires, there is little attestation or scholastic claims to the veracity of the accounts.

Claims distinctions are quite relevant.

I very specifically gave a situation where the technology would not be able to lead to proton reassortment without a fifth dimension.

Nothing stipulates that fifth dimension necessitates proton reassortment.


Furthermore, the fifth dimension PREDICTS that if you combine lead and concrete and get gold, the only mathematically solid explanation is a fifth dimension interaction.

That is a formal fallacy. Clearly NOT the above syllogism or the OP argumentation.
Additionally, nothing about fifth dimension actually predicts it as stated before.


You then go on to say that the fifth dimension explains TALKING SNAKES scientifically simply because parts of biblical mythology match up with what might happen if there was a fifth dimension?

Not at all. Again you did not digest the OP. Specifically,
Let me lay it out more so:
P1 The scientifically predicted being can internalize speech and project speech.
P2 Hundreds of millions of scholars and claimants attest to just such occurrences.
Conclusion - it is unreasonable to claim such accounts are scientifically absurd.


How can you expect to be taken seriously when you claim you have empirical evidence and a falsifiable hypothesis related to talking snakes, and what you give instead is a grand explanation of how god acts in the bible fits what might happen if beings interacted between dimensions, and since god exists the talking snake must be possible.

I expect you to take a Yale Mathematics professor who details out the predictions in a peer reviewed work seriously. I honestly am unconcerned with your opinion with me.
What you are doing is tantamount to all of the losers who bash WLC as a nobody. It is appalling.

If you want to claim that agents (God, Jesus, Angels, snakes, aliens, whatever) move or interact between dimensions, you haven't come CLOSE to explaining how an interaction through dimensions can lead to a talking donkey.

A donkey has many physiological limitations, both neurally and anatomically, making fluent human speech impossible.

The most dimensional jumping can do is to take control of the donkey's existing physiology.

Think of it in Flatland terms. You've got a 2D donkey with a 2D guy on top. You can pull the donkey off the "page" so that from the 2D guy's perspective the donkey "disappears" or "goes through objects" or "reverses himself."

"Voices in your head" refer to if the 2D guy were pulled off the page, placed 1 mm away from the donkey, and his sound waves carried through the page (i.e. pass through the fifth dimension). Since the donkey never disappears from sight, the only way a dimension-jumping agent could interact would be to literally pull the donkey's brain and organs "off the page" and then replace them with another set of brains of organs.

Otherwise, even perfect neural control by the dimension jumping agent would not result in the 2D donkey "talking" in anything resembling human understanding for the simple reason that donkey brains aren't organized in that manner or with that kind of complexity.

Same applies to the snake. If Eve can SEE the snake and the snake "talks in her head" then the "snake" must be a fifth dimensional being. Otherwise, you aren't saying a "snake talks" you're saying "Eve saw a snake, and then another guy talked to her."

This means that the ONLY time in which snakes will talk is when they are fifth dimensional beings (not simply 4D agents that jump between dimensions).

So, your claims are whittled down to the following:

1. Snakes can talk if they are fifth dimensional beings.

2. Donkeys can talk if a dimension-jumping agent rips out their insides and replaces them instantaneously without killing said donkey (or if the donkey is a fifth dimensional being as well in which case the extra dimension could contain some mass capable of producing trans-dimensional sound waves).
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/15/2012 9:45:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 9:09:32 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 9:02:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
Btw, the "predictions" Sagan gives are:

- Fly, float, hover in the air
- Be invisible and untouchable yet present in the area
- Appear and disappear as if by magic
- Possess a 'disembodied' voice
- Speak internally to a person.

Meaning: ghosts, monsters, aliens, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation...

Again you need to recognize the essence of a claim distinction.

- Ghosts are in fact affirmed on the Christian worldview, they are just called demons.
- Aliens are also predicted on the Christian worldview, they are just called Angels.
- Teleportation of an immediate sort is indeed predicted via this theorem.

Telepathy and telekinesis are not.

Thank you for finally starting to digest the OP.

So, if aliens land on earth and claim to have been born on mars, you'd say they are evidence for angels?

Actually, telepathy and telekines by agents existing in all five dimensions simultaneously is predicted.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/15/2012 11:22:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 9:41:01 PM, Wnope wrote:

If you want to claim that agents (God, Jesus, Angels, snakes, aliens, whatever) move or interact between dimensions, you haven't come CLOSE to explaining how an interaction through dimensions can lead to a talking donkey.

A donkey has many physiological limitations, both neurally and anatomically, making fluent human speech impossible.

The most dimensional jumping can do is to take control of the donkey's existing physiology.

Think of it in Flatland terms. You've got a 2D donkey with a 2D guy on top. You can pull the donkey off the "page" so that from the 2D guy's perspective the donkey "disappears" or "goes through objects" or "reverses himself."

"Voices in your head" refer to if the 2D guy were pulled off the page, placed 1 mm away from the donkey, and his sound waves carried through the page (i.e. pass through the fifth dimension). Since the donkey never disappears from sight, the only way a dimension-jumping agent could interact would be to literally pull the donkey's brain and organs "off the page" and then replace them with another set of brains of organs.

Otherwise, even perfect neural control by the dimension jumping agent would not result in the 2D donkey "talking" in anything resembling human understanding for the simple reason that donkey brains aren't organized in that manner or with that kind of complexity.

Same applies to the snake. If Eve can SEE the snake and the snake "talks in her head" then the "snake" must be a fifth dimensional being. Otherwise, you aren't saying a "snake talks" you're saying "Eve saw a snake, and then another guy talked to her."

This means that the ONLY time in which snakes will talk is when they are fifth dimensional beings (not simply 4D agents that jump between dimensions).

So, your claims are whittled down to the following:

1. Snakes can talk if they are fifth dimensional beings.

2. Donkeys can talk if a dimension-jumping agent rips out their insides and replaces them instantaneously without killing said donkey (or if the donkey is a fifth dimensional being as well in which case the extra dimension could contain some mass capable of producing trans-dimensional sound waves).

Finally, some constructive feedback!
But I completely take issue with your basic premise.
We do NOT need, as scientists or mathematicians to understand WHY or HOW fractal geometry causes an increase in reception of radio waves for it to be true. A scientist does not need to know specifically how something works, to have a general understanding of how it works. Your rationale is not true.
Someone who has never used cell phones or even seen one does not get to demand the particulars of how it works and when the scientists themselves cannot describe the inner workings, gets to yell "Fail !!!!"
The scientists and mathematicians do understand the basic concept of atenna's and the transfer of key materials. The boost or increase due to fractals does not need to be fully explained given an experiential reality that it does indeed. (For those that do not know this, scientists are currently oblivious as to why fractal geometrical shapes of atenna increase reception 1000% or at least it was left to speculation)

***
Realize we do generally understand that such a being is fully capable of interacting with us internally with zero awarness from us.
To emphasize the concept, the 3D entity can actually see the 'internal' organs of 2D beings. The idea they they could go inside of them or interact with the 'internal structure' is by no means a significant leap.
To visualize:
If you were looking down on a 2D square, all of its internal organs would be completely exposed to you. There is no 3D covering. You can poke its stomach, give it the runs, rip out its heart with no visible signs of penetration to any other 2D entity.
Given the claims within the Bible these creatures are 'beings of light' or energy based entities, there is sufficient warrant to give a high degree of plausibility to these accounts. Again, the majority of information is accounted for.

***

Now as Carl Sagan describes, the communication from a being would be internalized. Nothing about the actuality of that internalization need verified by the physiology of the snake and the 4th dimensional beings interaction.

- We have Biblical claims of communication that is internalized.
- We have attested Christian claims of communication that is internalized.
- We have claims of 'ghost' internalized communication that is extra biblical.

Given the concept that we do see that such an entity would have the capability of interacting with the internal structure of the lower entity and the attestation to such concept the actuality is not a concern to give the claim plausibility.
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 11:24:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 9:45:08 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/15/2012 9:09:32 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 9:02:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
Btw, the "predictions" Sagan gives are:

- Fly, float, hover in the air
- Be invisible and untouchable yet present in the area
- Appear and disappear as if by magic
- Possess a 'disembodied' voice
- Speak internally to a person.

Meaning: ghosts, monsters, aliens, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation...

Again you need to recognize the essence of a claim distinction.

- Ghosts are in fact affirmed on the Christian worldview, they are just called demons.
- Aliens are also predicted on the Christian worldview, they are just called Angels.
- Teleportation of an immediate sort is indeed predicted via this theorem.

Telepathy and telekinesis are not.

Thank you for finally starting to digest the OP.

So, if aliens land on earth and claim to have been born on mars, you'd say they are evidence for angels?

No. Nothing within Christianity precludes a multitude of 3D races and peoples throughout the universe. The universe was originally made for the Angels.


Actually, telepathy and telekines by agents existing in all five dimensions simultaneously is predicted.

??
Gileandos
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7/15/2012 11:27:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 9:59:14 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
charleslbinitis has infected Gileandos

Wow. Be still my heart.

An atheist with an ad hominem instead of a response to scientific evidence. Evidence for miracles?
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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7/16/2012 12:02:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 11:27:05 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 9:59:14 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
charleslbinitis has infected Gileandos

Wow. Be still my heart.

An atheist with an ad hominem instead of a response to scientific evidence. Evidence for miracles?

I saw it one time, and I feel it.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/16/2012 12:28:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 11:22:58 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 9:41:01 PM, Wnope wrote:

If you want to claim that agents (God, Jesus, Angels, snakes, aliens, whatever) move or interact between dimensions, you haven't come CLOSE to explaining how an interaction through dimensions can lead to a talking donkey.

A donkey has many physiological limitations, both neurally and anatomically, making fluent human speech impossible.

The most dimensional jumping can do is to take control of the donkey's existing physiology.

Think of it in Flatland terms. You've got a 2D donkey with a 2D guy on top. You can pull the donkey off the "page" so that from the 2D guy's perspective the donkey "disappears" or "goes through objects" or "reverses himself."

"Voices in your head" refer to if the 2D guy were pulled off the page, placed 1 mm away from the donkey, and his sound waves carried through the page (i.e. pass through the fifth dimension). Since the donkey never disappears from sight, the only way a dimension-jumping agent could interact would be to literally pull the donkey's brain and organs "off the page" and then replace them with another set of brains of organs.

Otherwise, even perfect neural control by the dimension jumping agent would not result in the 2D donkey "talking" in anything resembling human understanding for the simple reason that donkey brains aren't organized in that manner or with that kind of complexity.

Same applies to the snake. If Eve can SEE the snake and the snake "talks in her head" then the "snake" must be a fifth dimensional being. Otherwise, you aren't saying a "snake talks" you're saying "Eve saw a snake, and then another guy talked to her."

This means that the ONLY time in which snakes will talk is when they are fifth dimensional beings (not simply 4D agents that jump between dimensions).

So, your claims are whittled down to the following:

1. Snakes can talk if they are fifth dimensional beings.

2. Donkeys can talk if a dimension-jumping agent rips out their insides and replaces them instantaneously without killing said donkey (or if the donkey is a fifth dimensional being as well in which case the extra dimension could contain some mass capable of producing trans-dimensional sound waves).


Finally, some constructive feedback!
But I completely take issue with your basic premise.
We do NOT need, as scientists or mathematicians to understand WHY or HOW fractal geometry causes an increase in reception of radio waves for it to be true. A scientist does not need to know specifically how something works, to have a general understanding of how it works. Your rationale is not true.
Someone who has never used cell phones or even seen one does not get to demand the particulars of how it works and when the scientists themselves cannot describe the inner workings, gets to yell "Fail !!!!"
The scientists and mathematicians do understand the basic concept of atenna's and the transfer of key materials. The boost or increase due to fractals does not need to be fully explained given an experiential reality that it does indeed. (For those that do not know this, scientists are currently oblivious as to why fractal geometrical shapes of atenna increase reception 1000% or at least it was left to speculation)

***
Realize we do generally understand that such a being is fully capable of interacting with us internally with zero awarness from us.
To emphasize the concept, the 3D entity can actually see the 'internal' organs of 2D beings. The idea they they could go inside of them or interact with the 'internal structure' is by no means a significant leap.
To visualize:
If you were looking down on a 2D square, all of its internal organs would be completely exposed to you. There is no 3D covering. You can poke its stomach, give it the runs, rip out its heart with no visible signs of penetration to any other 2D entity.
Given the claims within the Bible these creatures are 'beings of light' or energy based entities, there is sufficient warrant to give a high degree of plausibility to these accounts. Again, the majority of information is accounted for.

***

Now as Carl Sagan describes, the communication from a being would be internalized. Nothing about the actuality of that internalization need verified by the physiology of the snake and the 4th dimensional beings interaction.

- We have Biblical claims of communication that is internalized.
- We have attested Christian claims of communication that is internalized.
- We have claims of 'ghost' internalized communication that is extra biblical.

Given the concept that we do see that such an entity would have the capability of interacting with the internal structure of the lower entity and the attestation to such concept the actuality is not a concern to give the claim plausibility.

The equivalent of "why fractal geometry causes an increase in reception of radio waves" is "why does a fifth dimension exist." That may not need explaining in order for us to continue.

To go from "a fifth dimension exists" to "a fifth dimension can coherently explain a talking donkey" is to posit some mechanism that uses properties of the fifth dimension to accomplish empirically measurable results (a talking donkey).

It seems you agree with me that in order for the donkey to talk, a dimension-jumping entity had to rearrange the donkey's entire physiology instantaneously in such a dramatic manner as to have human speech.

Again, using "flatland" logic you cannot claim that an organism called a "snake" communicated with Eve while simultaneously claiming an organism in the fifth dimension INDEPENDENT OF THE SNAKE communicated with Eve. Otherwise, you are no longer talking about a snake that talks in any senses.

Gil's Argument for when we should take animal talking seriously:

1. A donkey can talk, as long as there's a transdimensional being around to complete change the physiology of the donkey such that it not only viably survives but can fluently talk in english (in which case the assignment of the term "donkey" to the organism becomes suspect).

2. A "snake" can use internalized communication via the fifth dimension (as Sagan claims a disembodied voice would) as long as what you call a "snake" is an entity that exists in at least five dimensions and has a mental infrastructure capable of transmitting coherent thoughts across species.

3. Because mythology x has instances of levitation, internalized communication, magic, disembodied voices, passing through walls, and other phenomena that a transdimensional being could utilize, mythology x is predicted by the fifth dimensions existence and therefore all claims within x are that are possibly explained by the fifth dimension are "scientifically viable."
Gileandos
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7/16/2012 12:46:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 12:02:45 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:27:05 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/15/2012 9:59:14 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
charleslbinitis has infected Gileandos

Wow. Be still my heart.

An atheist with an ad hominem instead of a response to scientific evidence. Evidence for miracles?

I saw it one time, and I feel it.

How and.... when you tickle your Elmo is entirely on you man.