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Why the Bible Is the Word of God

acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/16/2012 12:58:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students.

The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement even among the most skeptical students.

However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented (Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).

For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.

They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in 300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),

After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17.

To illustrate how large the number 10^17 IS (a figure with 17 zeros), Stoner gave this illustration :

If you mark one of ten tickets, and place all the tickets in a hat, and thoroughly stir them, and then ask a blindfolded man to draw one, his chance of getting the right ticket is one in ten. Suppose that we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They'll cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would've had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote them in their own wisdom (Idem, 106-107).

In financial terms, is there anyone who would not invest in a financial venture if the chance of failure were only one in 10^17? This is the kind of sure investment we're offered by god for faith in His Messiah.

From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in 10^17!

Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah would be foolish.

But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone, living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company is ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward! As apologist Josh McDowell says, "There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra cash!" (Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus Crusade for Christ, 175).

How large is the number one in 10^157? 10^157 contains 157 zeros! Stoner gives an illustration of this number using electrons. Electrons are very small objects. They're smaller than atoms. It would take 2.5 TIMES 10^15 of them, laid side by side, to make one inch. Even if we counted 250 of these electrons each minute, and counted day and night, it would still take 19 million years just to count a line of electrons one-inch long (Stoner, op. cit, 109).

With this introduction, let's go back to our chance of one in 10^157. Let's suppose that we're taking this number of electrons, marking one, and thoroughly stirring it into the whole mass, then blindfolding a man and letting him try to find the right one. What chance has he of finding the right one? What kind of a pile will this number of electrons make? They make an inconceivably large volume.

This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance in 10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).

As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'

God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks to David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 1:13:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Not only that, but you are presuming that the prophecies are true when you make your calculations. Why should whoever fulfills the prophecy be considered the heir of God? Why should we even believe that the prophecies are real? Saying that Jesus is the son of God because he fulfilled the prophecies and that the fact that he fulfilled them proves that the Bible (which contains the prophecies) is true is nothing more than begging the question.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/16/2012 1:13:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This presentation operates from a standpoint that an individual did, in fact, fullfill the prophecies outlined. Why should we grant that assumption?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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7/16/2012 1:14:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:11:13 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You do realize that Jesus was aware of the prophecies and that he purposefully fulfilled them?

Are you implying Jesus chose his genealogy, gender, and location of birth?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 1:15:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:14:12 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:11:13 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You do realize that Jesus was aware of the prophecies and that he purposefully fulfilled them?

Are you implying Jesus chose his genealogy, gender, and location of birth?

Strawman. Anybody of Jewish descent from that line who was born in Bethlehem could have been the heir if they chose to fulfill the prophecies.
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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7/16/2012 1:19:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:11:13 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You do realize that Jesus was aware of the prophecies and that he purposefully fulfilled them?

You mean like the prophecy that He would be born in Bethlehem, would die by crucifixion, and rise again on the third day?

Well played, Jesus. Well played.

)
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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7/16/2012 1:20:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:19:27 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:11:13 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You do realize that Jesus was aware of the prophecies and that he purposefully fulfilled them?

You mean like the prophecy that He would be born in Bethlehem, would die by crucifixion, and rise again on the third day?

Well played, Jesus. Well played.

)

On a related note, that was supposed to be a smile emoticon at the end of that post...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/16/2012 1:24:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Allow me to demonstrate the complete and utter silliness of this whole experiment.

I prophesize the coming of a messiah who, in 10 seconds, will touch the "W" key on my keyboard.

I just touched it. I'm the messiah now, right? After all, the "W" key is approximately 2.0484 cm^3 in volume. The observable universe is approximately 3.5 * 10^80 m^3 in volume. This, the "W" key on my keyboard represents 5.8526 * 10^-85 percent of the observable universe. That is:

0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000058526%

Even with 7 billion people on this planet, I think we can agree that the sheer random odds that one of them would touch that exact spot in is far less likely than the convergence of a few mundane coincidences in some dusty old book.

So, you'll be worshipping me now, right?
acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/16/2012 1:25:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Because a Jewish historian named Josephus said Jesus existed in his book Antiquities. He had no reason to since he was a Jew that hated Christianity. So yes, Jesus existed. Further Isaiah 40:22 says the earth is round. That was in 700 B.C. Second, the writers of the New Testament talked about their sins: lack of faith, denying Christ, unbelief in the Resurrection(Thomas), yet Jesus was just perfect. Further these apostles died for their beliefs. I highly doubt liars become martyrs Drafterman! Third the tomb is still empty and Christ's bones still haven't been found. Fourth, if the New Testament just made Jesus up, they would be liars. Do liars tell you to treat your fellow man kindly(Good Samaritan)? Do liars tell you to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Do liars tell you, you should obey the Ten Commandments? Do liars tell you you should love the Lord your God with all your heart?

Let me ask this: Does a liar purposely fulfill all those prophecies and then lie about eing the Son of God?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/16/2012 1:30:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The odds that Jesus would have been born in Bethleham are 1 in 1 because... well... that's where his mother was when he gave birth.

Are we suggesting that, upon birth his position was randomized across the entire globe and he just so happened to end up back in Bethleham?

Yes, the odds of picking a single Bethlehemian person out of the entire population of the Earth is pretty small. But that's not saying the odds of their being a person from Bethleham at all are small. So long as the place had a birth rate at all it isn't a stretch to predict that there will be someone there.

Also, there is a failure to consider the constraints, namely: God. Since God was the source of both the prophecy and Jesus, then the very attempt to deferr to any sort of randomness undermines the conclusion that a God exists. If God is the source, then neither the prophecy nor the event were "random," they were determined by God. If I tell you I'm going to meet you at your house at 7pm tomorrow, and I show up at 7pm tomorrow, are you going to be awed and amazed at the odds of a single person, out of all the 7 billion people, happened to show up at your place, out of all the places on Earth, at that time? No.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/16/2012 1:33:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:25:22 PM, acvavra wrote:
Because a Jewish historian named Josephus said Jesus existed in his book Antiquities.

How does that prove that Jesus fullfilled the prophecies? Or that he even existed? Many people today write about Jesus existing. Not to mention that the authenticity of those passages has been questioned.

He had no reason to since he was a Jew that hated Christianity. So yes, Jesus existed.

That's not what I was asking. Also, what does his religion have to do with anything? If he hated Christianity, then why would he acknowledge that Jesus existed? Did Jesus existing magically compell him to do so?

Further Isaiah 40:22 says the earth is round. That was in 700 B.C. Second, the writers of the New Testament talked about their sins: lack of faith, denying Christ, unbelief in the Resurrection(Thomas), yet Jesus was just perfect. Further these apostles died for their beliefs. I highly doubt liars become martyrs Drafterman! Third the tomb is still empty and Christ's bones still haven't been found. Fourth, if the New Testament just made Jesus up, they would be liars. Do liars tell you to treat your fellow man kindly(Good Samaritan)? Do liars tell you to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Do liars tell you, you should obey the Ten Commandments? Do liars tell you you should love the Lord your God with all your heart?

Let me ask this: Does a liar purposely fulfill all those prophecies and then lie about eing the Son of God?

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, and they are questions I've already answered.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/16/2012 1:36:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:19:27 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:11:13 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You do realize that Jesus was aware of the prophecies and that he purposefully fulfilled them?

You mean like the prophecy that He would be born in Bethlehem, would die by crucifixion, and rise again on the third day?

Well played, Jesus. Well played.

)

ROFL NIce.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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7/16/2012 1:37:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:19:27 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:11:13 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You do realize that Jesus was aware of the prophecies and that he purposefully fulfilled them?

You mean like the prophecy that He would be born in Bethlehem, would die by crucifixion, and rise again on the third day?

Well played, Jesus. Well played.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/16/2012 1:39:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:30:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
The odds that Jesus would have been born in Bethleham are 1 in 1 because... well... that's where his mother was when he gave birth.

This kind of rationale that permeates the atheist mantra is sheer stupidity.

I recommend you sit down with a cup of coffee.
Find a Priest or pastor.
And discuss how reality works.
acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/16/2012 1:40:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:33:45 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:25:22 PM, acvavra wrote:
Because a Jewish historian named Josephus said Jesus existed in his book Antiquities.

How does that prove that Jesus fullfilled the prophecies? Or that he even existed? Many people today write about Jesus existing. Not to mention that the authenticity of those passages has been questioned.

He had no reason to since he was a Jew that hated Christianity. So yes, Jesus existed.

That's not what I was asking. Also, what does his religion have to do with anything? If he hated Christianity, then why would he acknowledge that Jesus existed? Did Jesus existing magically compell him to do so?

Further Isaiah 40:22 says the earth is round. That was in 700 B.C. Second, the writers of the New Testament talked about their sins: lack of faith, denying Christ, unbelief in the Resurrection(Thomas), yet Jesus was just perfect. Further these apostles died for their beliefs. I highly doubt liars become martyrs Drafterman! Third the tomb is still empty and Christ's bones still haven't been found. Fourth, if the New Testament just made Jesus up, they would be liars. Do liars tell you to treat your fellow man kindly(Good Samaritan)? Do liars tell you to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Do liars tell you, you should obey the Ten Commandments? Do liars tell you you should love the Lord your God with all your heart?

Let me ask this: Does a liar purposely fulfill all those prophecies and then lie about eing the Son of God?

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, and they are questions I've already answered.

You haven't answered one of them. ANSWER ME: HOW DOES SOMEONE FULFILL ALL THOSE PROPHECIES, INCLUDING CRUCIFIXION, NOT BE THE SON OF GOD?
acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/16/2012 1:43:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Furthermore, why would a liar someone claim to be the Son of God and then tell everyone to be kind and treat their fellow man nice and love your neighbor.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/16/2012 1:43:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:39:11 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:30:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
The odds that Jesus would have been born in Bethleham are 1 in 1 because... well... that's where his mother was when he gave birth.

This kind of rationale that permeates the atheist mantra is sheer stupidity.

I recommend you sit down with a cup of coffee.
Find a Priest or pastor.
And discuss how reality works.

I'd rather talk with G.R.R. Martin, Neil Gaiman, and Terry Pratchett. They are just (if not more) versed in the rules governing fictional universes and the conversation is likely to be more interesting, and with less judgement, to boot.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/16/2012 1:44:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:40:42 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:33:45 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:25:22 PM, acvavra wrote:
Because a Jewish historian named Josephus said Jesus existed in his book Antiquities.

How does that prove that Jesus fullfilled the prophecies? Or that he even existed? Many people today write about Jesus existing. Not to mention that the authenticity of those passages has been questioned.

He had no reason to since he was a Jew that hated Christianity. So yes, Jesus existed.

That's not what I was asking. Also, what does his religion have to do with anything? If he hated Christianity, then why would he acknowledge that Jesus existed? Did Jesus existing magically compell him to do so?

Further Isaiah 40:22 says the earth is round. That was in 700 B.C. Second, the writers of the New Testament talked about their sins: lack of faith, denying Christ, unbelief in the Resurrection(Thomas), yet Jesus was just perfect. Further these apostles died for their beliefs. I highly doubt liars become martyrs Drafterman! Third the tomb is still empty and Christ's bones still haven't been found. Fourth, if the New Testament just made Jesus up, they would be liars. Do liars tell you to treat your fellow man kindly(Good Samaritan)? Do liars tell you to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Do liars tell you, you should obey the Ten Commandments? Do liars tell you you should love the Lord your God with all your heart?

Let me ask this: Does a liar purposely fulfill all those prophecies and then lie about eing the Son of God?

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, and they are questions I've already answered.

You haven't answered one of them.

I answered them in the thread in which I first saw them.

ANSWER ME: HOW DOES SOMEONE FULFILL ALL THOSE PROPHECIES, INCLUDING CRUCIFIXION, NOT BE THE SON OF GOD?

I don't believe he actually did fullfill those prophecies, and you haven't demonstrated that he did.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/16/2012 1:45:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:43:33 PM, acvavra wrote:
Furthermore, why would a liar someone claim to be the Son of God and then tell everyone to be kind and treat their fellow man nice and love your neighbor.

Delusional people say lots of weird things.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/16/2012 1:46:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:45:15 PM, acvavra wrote:
What benefit would Jesus get out of being crucified and fulfilling all those prophecies.

You keep operating from the position that he actually fulfilled those prophecies. I'm not.

Do you see why your so dumb Drafterman?

My so dumb what?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 1:47:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:19:27 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:11:13 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You do realize that Jesus was aware of the prophecies and that he purposefully fulfilled them?

You mean like the prophecy that He would be born in Bethlehem, would die by crucifixion, and rise again on the third day?

Can I see this prophecy, please?

Also, I doubt that the resurrection is real, although they do argue that his tomb is in Kashmir.
acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/16/2012 1:47:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:44:45 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:40:42 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:33:45 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:25:22 PM, acvavra wrote:
Because a Jewish historian named Josephus said Jesus existed in his book Antiquities.

How does that prove that Jesus fullfilled the prophecies? Or that he even existed? Many people today write about Jesus existing. Not to mention that the authenticity of those passages has been questioned.

He had no reason to since he was a Jew that hated Christianity. So yes, Jesus existed.

That's not what I was asking. Also, what does his religion have to do with anything? If he hated Christianity, then why would he acknowledge that Jesus existed? Did Jesus existing magically compell him to do so?

Further Isaiah 40:22 says the earth is round. That was in 700 B.C. Second, the writers of the New Testament talked about their sins: lack of faith, denying Christ, unbelief in the Resurrection(Thomas), yet Jesus was just perfect. Further these apostles died for their beliefs. I highly doubt liars become martyrs Drafterman! Third the tomb is still empty and Christ's bones still haven't been found. Fourth, if the New Testament just made Jesus up, they would be liars. Do liars tell you to treat your fellow man kindly(Good Samaritan)? Do liars tell you to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Do liars tell you, you should obey the Ten Commandments? Do liars tell you you should love the Lord your God with all your heart?

Let me ask this: Does a liar purposely fulfill all those prophecies and then lie about eing the Son of God?

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, and they are questions I've already answered.

You haven't answered one of them.

I answered them in the thread in which I first saw them.

ANSWER ME: HOW DOES SOMEONE FULFILL ALL THOSE PROPHECIES, INCLUDING CRUCIFIXION, NOT BE THE SON OF GOD?

I don't believe he actually did fullfill those prophecies, and you haven't demonstrated that he did.

You just said He was born at Bethlehem.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 1:48:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:45:15 PM, acvavra wrote:
What benefit would Jesus get out of being crucified and fulfilling all those prophecies.

1. He got immortalized for eternity.

2. He may not even have fulfilled the prophecies. Anybody could just make up stories and claim that he did.

3. You are ASSUMING that the prophecies prove divinity in order to justify divinity! That's begging the question.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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7/16/2012 1:49:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:45:35 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:43:33 PM, acvavra wrote:
Furthermore, why would a liar someone claim to be the Son of God and then tell everyone to be kind and treat their fellow man nice and love your neighbor.

Delusional people say lots of weird things.

So do you take the lunatic side on the C.S Lewis trilemma?
acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/16/2012 1:49:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:47:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:19:27 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:11:13 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You do realize that Jesus was aware of the prophecies and that he purposefully fulfilled them?

You mean like the prophecy that He would be born in Bethlehem, would die by crucifixion, and rise again on the third day?

Can I see this prophecy, please?

Also, I doubt that the resurrection is real, although they do argue that his tomb is in Kashmir.

Micah 5:2-born in Bethlehem
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/16/2012 1:50:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:47:24 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:44:45 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:40:42 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:33:45 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:25:22 PM, acvavra wrote:
Because a Jewish historian named Josephus said Jesus existed in his book Antiquities.

How does that prove that Jesus fullfilled the prophecies? Or that he even existed? Many people today write about Jesus existing. Not to mention that the authenticity of those passages has been questioned.

He had no reason to since he was a Jew that hated Christianity. So yes, Jesus existed.

That's not what I was asking. Also, what does his religion have to do with anything? If he hated Christianity, then why would he acknowledge that Jesus existed? Did Jesus existing magically compell him to do so?

Further Isaiah 40:22 says the earth is round. That was in 700 B.C. Second, the writers of the New Testament talked about their sins: lack of faith, denying Christ, unbelief in the Resurrection(Thomas), yet Jesus was just perfect. Further these apostles died for their beliefs. I highly doubt liars become martyrs Drafterman! Third the tomb is still empty and Christ's bones still haven't been found. Fourth, if the New Testament just made Jesus up, they would be liars. Do liars tell you to treat your fellow man kindly(Good Samaritan)? Do liars tell you to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Do liars tell you, you should obey the Ten Commandments? Do liars tell you you should love the Lord your God with all your heart?

Let me ask this: Does a liar purposely fulfill all those prophecies and then lie about eing the Son of God?

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, and they are questions I've already answered.

You haven't answered one of them.

I answered them in the thread in which I first saw them.

ANSWER ME: HOW DOES SOMEONE FULFILL ALL THOSE PROPHECIES, INCLUDING CRUCIFIXION, NOT BE THE SON OF GOD?

I don't believe he actually did fullfill those prophecies, and you haven't demonstrated that he did.

You just said He was born at Bethlehem.

And?
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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7/16/2012 1:50:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:48:23 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:45:15 PM, acvavra wrote:
What benefit would Jesus get out of being crucified and fulfilling all those prophecies.

1. He got immortalized for eternity.

2. He may not even have fulfilled the prophecies. Anybody could just make up stories and claim that he did.

3. You are ASSUMING that the prophecies prove divinity in order to justify divinity! That's begging the question.

But they didn't. Your lack of knowledge about such complex issues has zero value. You talk as if you are 10 years in age.
acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/16/2012 1:51:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 1:50:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:47:24 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:44:45 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:40:42 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:33:45 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 1:25:22 PM, acvavra wrote:
Because a Jewish historian named Josephus said Jesus existed in his book Antiquities.

How does that prove that Jesus fullfilled the prophecies? Or that he even existed? Many people today write about Jesus existing. Not to mention that the authenticity of those passages has been questioned.

He had no reason to since he was a Jew that hated Christianity. So yes, Jesus existed.

That's not what I was asking. Also, what does his religion have to do with anything? If he hated Christianity, then why would he acknowledge that Jesus existed? Did Jesus existing magically compell him to do so?

Further Isaiah 40:22 says the earth is round. That was in 700 B.C. Second, the writers of the New Testament talked about their sins: lack of faith, denying Christ, unbelief in the Resurrection(Thomas), yet Jesus was just perfect. Further these apostles died for their beliefs. I highly doubt liars become martyrs Drafterman! Third the tomb is still empty and Christ's bones still haven't been found. Fourth, if the New Testament just made Jesus up, they would be liars. Do liars tell you to treat your fellow man kindly(Good Samaritan)? Do liars tell you to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Do liars tell you, you should obey the Ten Commandments? Do liars tell you you should love the Lord your God with all your heart?

Let me ask this: Does a liar purposely fulfill all those prophecies and then lie about eing the Son of God?

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, and they are questions I've already answered.

You haven't answered one of them.

I answered them in the thread in which I first saw them.

ANSWER ME: HOW DOES SOMEONE FULFILL ALL THOSE PROPHECIES, INCLUDING CRUCIFIXION, NOT BE THE SON OF GOD?

I don't believe he actually did fullfill those prophecies, and you haven't demonstrated that he did.

You just said He was born at Bethlehem.

And?

So you admit He fulfilled a prophecy