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Argument From Martyrs

royalpaladin
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7/16/2012 3:16:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
How does this argument justify Christianity? Muslim suicide bombers martyr themselves on a daily basis for something they know to be true. Does that mean that you believe that the Koran is true?
inferno
Posts: 10,655
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7/16/2012 3:19:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No. They misinterpret their own religion.
Be that as it may, it is all wrong.
Anything that perpetuates violence is a sin.
Their ideology is a bit extreme and stoic overall.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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7/16/2012 3:19:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:16:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
How does this argument justify Christianity? Muslim suicide bombers martyr themselves on a daily basis for something they know to be true. Does that mean that you believe that the Koran is true?


No, but it symbolizes a real power.

There is a true force, influencing those people.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
drafterman
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7/16/2012 3:22:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

Ah... the warm glow of Christian love.

...

Wait, that's not love!
inferno
Posts: 10,655
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7/16/2012 3:23:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:19:55 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:16:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
How does this argument justify Christianity? Muslim suicide bombers martyr themselves on a daily basis for something they know to be true. Does that mean that you believe that the Koran is true?


No, but it symbolizes a real power.

There is a true force, influencing those people.

Yes, a demonic one.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 3:24:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

LOL, I highly doubt Atheists feel a need to impose their views on others.
inferno
Posts: 10,655
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7/16/2012 3:27:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:24:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

LOL, I highly doubt Atheists feel a need to impose their views on others.

Atheists do not matter to most of the real world.
And we could care less about what they think or how they feel.
Miss Royale.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/16/2012 3:33:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:24:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

LOL, I highly doubt Atheists feel a need to impose their views on others.

Militant atheists do, the so called Neo-Atheists who make it their goal to crush religion out of people.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 3:34:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:33:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:24:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

LOL, I highly doubt Atheists feel a need to impose their views on others.

Militant atheists do, the so called Neo-Atheists who make it their goal to crush religion out of people.

There's a difference between spreading ideas and imposing views on others through force.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/16/2012 3:35:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:16:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
How does this argument justify Christianity? Muslim suicide bombers martyr themselves on a daily basis for something they know to be true. Does that mean that you believe that the Koran is true?

It is the belief set that is typically the argument.
Christians die for the fellowship of evil people. For the people they hate. To bring them into right relationship with God.

Blowing up someone you hate is not a significant stretch. How many movies with suicidal vigilanties can you count? It is appealing to a clear group.

Huge technical distinction. Dieing to convince your enemy and not 'taking him with you' is a huge difference.

You really really really have to believe in something to set aside a natural inclination for revenge.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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7/16/2012 3:36:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:23:12 PM, inferno wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:19:55 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:16:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
How does this argument justify Christianity? Muslim suicide bombers martyr themselves on a daily basis for something they know to be true. Does that mean that you believe that the Koran is true?


No, but it symbolizes a real power.

There is a true force, influencing those people.

Yes, a demonic one.


Absolutely. What ever demonic entitties influenced Islam, got to the heart of quite a few nations.

But, to these people, the demons come as something appealing to their culture.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/16/2012 3:36:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:33:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:24:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

LOL, I highly doubt Atheists feel a need to impose their views on others.

Militant atheists do, the so called Neo-Atheists who make it their goal to crush religion out of people.

This
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/16/2012 3:36:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:33:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:24:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

LOL, I highly doubt Atheists feel a need to impose their views on others.

Militant atheists do, the so called Neo-Atheists who make it their goal to crush religion out of people.

Uh-huh, and where are the neo-atheists bombing churches because of ideological disagreements? Poisoning baptismal water? Declaring eternal physical punishment for all who don't believe them?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 3:39:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:35:16 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:16:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
How does this argument justify Christianity? Muslim suicide bombers martyr themselves on a daily basis for something they know to be true. Does that mean that you believe that the Koran is true?

It is the belief set that is typically the argument.
Christians die for the fellowship of evil people. For the people they hate. To bring them into right relationship with God.

Blowing up someone you hate is not a significant stretch. How many movies with suicidal vigilanties can you count? It is appealing to a clear group.

Huge technical distinction. Dieing to convince your enemy and not 'taking him with you' is a huge difference.

You really really really have to believe in something to set aside a natural inclination for revenge.

That's not the argument that you guys make. The argument you make is that they died for something and they wouldn't have died for it if it were a lie. It has nothing to do with dying in order to save the enemy (I'd like proof of this, please).
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 3:41:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Anyways, now I'll present another situation.

Guru Tegh Bahadur, the 9th Guru of Sikhism, was tortured to death, but refused to convert to Islam (he willingly went to the emperor and allowed himself to be tortured), in order to preserve the religious freedom of Hindus (different religion). Other Sikhs saw the Gurus performed miracles and died for them as well. Does all of this mean that Sikhism is automatically true and that you must believe it (since they died to help others and because they died for something they knew to be true?)
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/16/2012 3:42:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:41:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Anyways, now I'll present another situation.

Guru Tegh Bahadur, the 9th Guru of Sikhism, was tortured to death, but refused to convert to Islam (he willingly went to the emperor and allowed himself to be tortured), in order to preserve the religious freedom of Hindus (different religion). Other Sikhs saw the Gurus performed miracles and died for them as well. Does all of this mean that Sikhism is automatically true and that you must believe it (since they died to help others and because they died for something they knew to be true?)

No of course not. All this demonstrates is that Bahadur believes completely in Hinduism which only raises questions as to why he believed so heavily.
annanicole
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7/16/2012 3:55:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:24:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

LOL, I highly doubt Atheists feel a need to impose their views on others.

Nooooo, Communist atheists never did that. Atheists would never simply close church buildings.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 3:57:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:42:26 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:41:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Anyways, now I'll present another situation.

Guru Tegh Bahadur, the 9th Guru of Sikhism, was tortured to death, but refused to convert to Islam (he willingly went to the emperor and allowed himself to be tortured), in order to preserve the religious freedom of Hindus (different religion). Other Sikhs saw the Gurus performed miracles and died for them as well. Does all of this mean that Sikhism is automatically true and that you must believe it (since they died to help others and because they died for something they knew to be true?)

No of course not. All this demonstrates is that Bahadur believes completely in Hinduism which only raises questions as to why he believed so heavily.

LOL, he actually didn't believe in Hinduism. He was Sikh (they're completely different religions). He died defending freedom of religion so that people of another religion wouldn't have to convert.

I guess that takes out the martyr analysis then (unless it applies to Christianity "just because")
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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7/16/2012 3:58:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:36:27 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:33:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:24:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

LOL, I highly doubt Atheists feel a need to impose their views on others.

Militant atheists do, the so called Neo-Atheists who make it their goal to crush religion out of people.

Uh-huh, and where are the neo-atheists bombing churches because of ideological disagreements? Poisoning baptismal water? Declaring eternal physical punishment for all who don't believe them?

Haha. Name ONE Christian group that ever did that. I can't. I don't mean Catholics nor Protestants ... I simply mean Christians, nothing more and nothing less. Chrisitians and Christians only. Not hyphenated mongrels. Just Christians. Try it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 3:58:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:58:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:36:27 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:33:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:24:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:20:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
No, Christian suicide bombers - although I've actually never heard of such - would not "justify" Christianity. However ... HOWEVER ... since "suicide bombers" do sorta, by the perverted reasoning of a few, DO justify a certain position, I vote we nominate a few atheistic suicide bombers to take one for the team. Who do you suggest? I have about three in mind.

LOL, I highly doubt Atheists feel a need to impose their views on others.

Militant atheists do, the so called Neo-Atheists who make it their goal to crush religion out of people.

Uh-huh, and where are the neo-atheists bombing churches because of ideological disagreements? Poisoning baptismal water? Declaring eternal physical punishment for all who don't believe them?

Haha. Name ONE Christian group that ever did that. I can't. I don't mean Catholics nor Protestants ... I simply mean Christians, nothing more and nothing less. Chrisitians and Christians only. Not hyphenated mongrels. Just Christians. Try it.

No true Scotsman fallacy.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/16/2012 4:00:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:57:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:42:26 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:41:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Anyways, now I'll present another situation.

Guru Tegh Bahadur, the 9th Guru of Sikhism, was tortured to death, but refused to convert to Islam (he willingly went to the emperor and allowed himself to be tortured), in order to preserve the religious freedom of Hindus (different religion). Other Sikhs saw the Gurus performed miracles and died for them as well. Does all of this mean that Sikhism is automatically true and that you must believe it (since they died to help others and because they died for something they knew to be true?)

No of course not. All this demonstrates is that Bahadur believes completely in Hinduism which only raises questions as to why he believed so heavily.

LOL, he actually didn't believe in Hinduism. He was Sikh (they're completely different religions). He died defending freedom of religion so that people of another religion wouldn't have to convert.

I guess that takes out the martyr analysis then (unless it applies to Christianity "just because")

If he died for religious freedom and not the religion itself then he is not a martyr for religion but freedom of expression. Two different things completely.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 4:06:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 4:00:21 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:57:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:42:26 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:41:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Anyways, now I'll present another situation.

Guru Tegh Bahadur, the 9th Guru of Sikhism, was tortured to death, but refused to convert to Islam (he willingly went to the emperor and allowed himself to be tortured), in order to preserve the religious freedom of Hindus (different religion). Other Sikhs saw the Gurus performed miracles and died for them as well. Does all of this mean that Sikhism is automatically true and that you must believe it (since they died to help others and because they died for something they knew to be true?)

No of course not. All this demonstrates is that Bahadur believes completely in Hinduism which only raises questions as to why he believed so heavily.

LOL, he actually didn't believe in Hinduism. He was Sikh (they're completely different religions). He died defending freedom of religion so that people of another religion wouldn't have to convert.

I guess that takes out the martyr analysis then (unless it applies to Christianity "just because")

If he died for religious freedom and not the religion itself then he is not a martyr for religion but freedom of expression. Two different things completely.

Sure, but what about all of the other Sikhs who died for their religion?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 4:07:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Note that the other Sikhs saw the miracles, believed because of them, and then died believing. It's 100% analogous to the situation that you are claiming for the Christian martyrs.
inferno
Posts: 10,655
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7/16/2012 4:09:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 4:08:19 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
There's also Guru Arjan, the fifth Guru, who died for Sikhism.

How about " Latika". Ha, ha, ha, ha.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/16/2012 4:15:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 4:07:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Note that the other Sikhs saw the miracles, believed because of them, and then died believing. It's 100% analogous to the situation that you are claiming for the Christian martyrs.

I never claimed anything about Christian martyrs. Martyrs die for a cause they believe wholeheartedly in. This individual belief for individual martyrs alone cannot justify an entire religious belief. However, martyrs do add legitimacy to other evidence and reasoning. Alone, the martyr argument is weak but coupled with other arguments it can be a handy booster.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 4:16:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 4:15:21 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 4:07:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Note that the other Sikhs saw the miracles, believed because of them, and then died believing. It's 100% analogous to the situation that you are claiming for the Christian martyrs.

I never claimed anything about Christian martyrs. Martyrs die for a cause they believe wholeheartedly in. This individual belief for individual martyrs alone cannot justify an entire religious belief. However, martyrs do add legitimacy to other evidence and reasoning. Alone, the martyr argument is weak but coupled with other arguments it can be a handy booster.

I honestly don't think it adds anything. I think it's just used because people think that nobody will ever find examples from another religion, which is usually true because most people only know about three religions.
ConservativePolitico
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7/16/2012 4:22:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 4:16:32 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 4:15:21 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 4:07:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Note that the other Sikhs saw the miracles, believed because of them, and then died believing. It's 100% analogous to the situation that you are claiming for the Christian martyrs.

I never claimed anything about Christian martyrs. Martyrs die for a cause they believe wholeheartedly in. This individual belief for individual martyrs alone cannot justify an entire religious belief. However, martyrs do add legitimacy to other evidence and reasoning. Alone, the martyr argument is weak but coupled with other arguments it can be a handy booster.

I honestly don't think it adds anything. I think it's just used because people think that nobody will ever find examples from another religion, which is usually true because most people only know about three religions.

I think it adds legitimacy to a Primary Source mainly. I can read the Bible and die for it sure but I think it adds more oomphf if I was the one who saw Jesus raised and then died for that belief.