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Is God merciful?

ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/16/2012 6:12:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Christians must adhere to the notion, that belief in God is a necessary condition for salvation. Otherwise, the huge number of people that get sucked into Christianity due to fear would become obsolete.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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7/16/2012 6:13:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?
Just because he understands, doesnt mean he's gonna give a sh*t. People can understand, but still be asses. I can understand the humiliation of my opponent when i crush his arguments, but it doesnt stop me from showing no mercy.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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7/16/2012 6:15:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes, he knows why you don't believe.

And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

His love and mercy are for those you ask for it while living. The damned are damned in death, not in life. A person's actions condemn him to damnation.

**But why did God not make me one of the elect and believer then if he already knew I was damned from the start?**

Just because.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/16/2012 6:24:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
On what possible evidence can we ever claim to know God's behavior... I don't understand the thinking/nonthinking that fuels such claims.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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7/16/2012 6:26:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:15:51 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
**But why did God not make me one of the elect and a believer then if he already knew I was damned from the start?**

At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest where the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/16/2012 6:39:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.

No he's not, but eh.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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7/16/2012 6:41:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:39:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.

No he's not, but eh.

Could I get a rebuttal?
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/16/2012 6:44:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...

You used the words "unbearable grief" and "much weeping and gnashing of teeth" to describe the hell you believe in. How is this much better than hell-fire exactly?

Also, I'm not consciously denying God's love. I simply see no evidence or reason to assume this love actually exists. There is a vast difference between:

(i) Seeing no evidence or reason to believe this being exists.

(ii) Acknowledging God's love, assuming God actually does exist, and consciously denying it.

(ii) Would be my fault if this was the case, (i) however is purely God's fault. He could let me know he exists, or show me a sign or something if he truly loved me. This would not hinder with my free will, because I could still chose to deny his love even if I knew for sure he existed.

Imagine I love a girl and know exactly who she is, but she doesn't know I exist, and I cause her to weep and agony for the rest of her life because she denied my love. This wouldn't be fair at all, because she didn't even know I existed! It would be up to me to make the first move because I already know everything about her, and know her and her existence, when she has no reason to believe I even exist. Now, if she rejected me, she would still not deserve "unbearable grief".

Do I deserve unbearable grief just for not believing in God? Of course not. According to the Christian, I could be selfless, caring, kind to everyone I met, and an overall amazing person and still deserve unbearable grief and weeping after I die. This is appalling.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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7/16/2012 6:54:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Perhaps I can take a stab at it.
To quote the rapist:
'If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he understand the intense need to rape women?'
or the murderer
'If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he understand the intense need to murder?'
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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7/16/2012 7:01:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:44:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...

You used the words "unbearable grief" and "much weeping and gnashing of teeth" to describe the hell you believe in. How is this much better than hell-fire exactly?

Also, I'm not consciously denying God's love. I simply see no evidence or reason to assume this love actually exists. There is a vast difference between:

(i) Seeing no evidence or reason to believe this being exists.

(ii) Acknowledging God's love, assuming God actually does exist, and consciously denying it.

(ii) Would be my fault if this was the case, (i) however is purely God's fault. He could let me know he exists, or show me a sign or something if he truly loved me. This would not hinder with my free will, because I could still chose to deny his love even if I knew for sure he existed.

Imagine I love a girl and know exactly who she is, but she doesn't know I exist, and I cause her to weep and agony for the rest of her life because she denied my love. This wouldn't be fair at all, because she didn't even know I existed! It would be up to me to make the first move because I already know everything about her, and know her and her existence, when she has no reason to believe I even exist. Now, if she rejected me, she would still not deserve "unbearable grief".

Do I deserve unbearable grief just for not believing in God? Of course not. According to the Christian, I could be selfless, caring, kind to everyone I met, and an overall amazing person and still deserve unbearable grief and weeping after I die. This is appalling.

This ^ God should work on making his existence obvious to people, because it's not really our fault for not believing in him when we've not seen enough evidence to support his existence.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/16/2012 7:05:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:01:02 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:44:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...

You used the words "unbearable grief" and "much weeping and gnashing of teeth" to describe the hell you believe in. How is this much better than hell-fire exactly?

Also, I'm not consciously denying God's love. I simply see no evidence or reason to assume this love actually exists. There is a vast difference between:

(i) Seeing no evidence or reason to believe this being exists.

(ii) Acknowledging God's love, assuming God actually does exist, and consciously denying it.

(ii) Would be my fault if this was the case, (i) however is purely God's fault. He could let me know he exists, or show me a sign or something if he truly loved me. This would not hinder with my free will, because I could still chose to deny his love even if I knew for sure he existed.

Imagine I love a girl and know exactly who she is, but she doesn't know I exist, and I cause her to weep and agony for the rest of her life because she denied my love. This wouldn't be fair at all, because she didn't even know I existed! It would be up to me to make the first move because I already know everything about her, and know her and her existence, when she has no reason to believe I even exist. Now, if she rejected me, she would still not deserve "unbearable grief".

Do I deserve unbearable grief just for not believing in God? Of course not. According to the Christian, I could be selfless, caring, kind to everyone I met, and an overall amazing person and still deserve unbearable grief and weeping after I die. This is appalling.

This ^ God should work on making his existence obvious to people, because it's not really our fault for not believing in him when we've not seen enough evidence to support his existence.

^ Not accordning to Christian scripture.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/16/2012 7:08:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:41:01 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:39:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.

No he's not, but eh.

Could I get a rebuttal?

For one, even granting that most of the imagery used in the NT to describe hell is metaphorical (which it surely is) CP's picture of hell doesn't do justice to a lot of the texts. These texts don't speak as if hell is a choice taken upon by the human; they speak as a God imposed, forced punishment. God plays an active and present role in this punishment here. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46) this punishment is imposed on sinners and some will even regard it as a great surprise that they are getting punished.

At the end of Jesus' parable about the ungrateful servant in Matt 18:34 it says the king turned his servant "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."

"In Revelation 14:9-11:

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God&#8223;s fury, which has been poured full
strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the
presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for
ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his
image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"

Hell isn't some place where God's presence is missing and he just letting people be with their own choices to "reject God". God is presented here as an active participant.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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7/16/2012 7:12:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:08:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:41:01 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:39:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.

No he's not, but eh.

Could I get a rebuttal?

For one, even granting that most of the imagery used in the NT to describe hell is metaphorical (which it surely is) CP's picture of hell doesn't do justice to a lot of the texts. These texts don't speak as if hell is a choice taken upon by the human; they speak as a God imposed, forced punishment. God plays an active and present role in this punishment here. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46) this punishment is imposed on sinners and some will even regard it as a great surprise that they are getting punished.

At the end of Jesus' parable about the ungrateful servant in Matt 18:34 it says the king turned his servant "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."

"In Revelation 14:9-11:

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God&#8223;s fury, which has been poured full
strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the
presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for
ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his
image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"

Hell isn't some place where God's presence is missing and he just letting people be with their own choices to "reject God". God is presented here as an active participant.

That seems even worse to me.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/16/2012 7:31:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:12:36 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:08:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:41:01 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:39:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.

No he's not, but eh.

Could I get a rebuttal?

For one, even granting that most of the imagery used in the NT to describe hell is metaphorical (which it surely is) CP's picture of hell doesn't do justice to a lot of the texts. These texts don't speak as if hell is a choice taken upon by the human; they speak as a God imposed, forced punishment. God plays an active and present role in this punishment here. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46) this punishment is imposed on sinners and some will even regard it as a great surprise that they are getting punished.

At the end of Jesus' parable about the ungrateful servant in Matt 18:34 it says the king turned his servant "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."

"In Revelation 14:9-11:

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God&#8223;s fury, which has been poured full
strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the
presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for
ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his
image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"

Hell isn't some place where God's presence is missing and he just letting people be with their own choices to "reject God". God is presented here as an active participant.

That seems even worse to me.

Its intended to. Hell is the 'necessary' result of sin commited against a holy God. If God overlooked sin He would not be holy and I would argue Him to be evil. The magnitude of the punishment is as it is because it is against an infinitly holy God. Thus, an infinite punishment os due. That is how it is often explained in Christian protestant circles. It can be more easily grasped by saying that one can punch a friend and nothing but perhaps a fight might break out. But if one punches the president its usually not taken so lightly.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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7/16/2012 7:31:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:08:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:41:01 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:39:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.

No he's not, but eh.

Could I get a rebuttal?

For one, even granting that most of the imagery used in the NT to describe hell is metaphorical (which it surely is) CP's picture of hell doesn't do justice to a lot of the texts. These texts don't speak as if hell is a choice taken upon by the human; they speak as a God imposed, forced punishment. God plays an active and present role in this punishment here. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46) this punishment is imposed on sinners and some will even regard it as a great surprise that they are getting punished.

At the end of Jesus' parable about the ungrateful servant in Matt 18:34 it says the king turned his servant "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."

"In Revelation 14:9-11:

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God&#8223;s fury, which has been poured full
strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the
presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for
ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his
image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"

Hell isn't some place where God's presence is missing and he just letting people be with their own choices to "reject God". God is presented here as an active participant.

Huh. Interesting. I'm going to have to do more study.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/16/2012 7:38:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:12:36 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:08:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:41:01 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:39:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.

No he's not, but eh.

Could I get a rebuttal?

For one, even granting that most of the imagery used in the NT to describe hell is metaphorical (which it surely is) CP's picture of hell doesn't do justice to a lot of the texts. These texts don't speak as if hell is a choice taken upon by the human; they speak as a God imposed, forced punishment. God plays an active and present role in this punishment here. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46) this punishment is imposed on sinners and some will even regard it as a great surprise that they are getting punished.

At the end of Jesus' parable about the ungrateful servant in Matt 18:34 it says the king turned his servant "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."

"In Revelation 14:9-11:

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God&#8223;s fury, which has been poured full
strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the
presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for
ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his
image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"

Hell isn't some place where God's presence is missing and he just letting people be with their own choices to "reject God". God is presented here as an active participant.

That seems even worse to me.

It is. Good thing it isn't forever, huh? ;)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/16/2012 7:39:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:38:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:12:36 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:08:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:41:01 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:39:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.

No he's not, but eh.

Could I get a rebuttal?

For one, even granting that most of the imagery used in the NT to describe hell is metaphorical (which it surely is) CP's picture of hell doesn't do justice to a lot of the texts. These texts don't speak as if hell is a choice taken upon by the human; they speak as a God imposed, forced punishment. God plays an active and present role in this punishment here. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46) this punishment is imposed on sinners and some will even regard it as a great surprise that they are getting punished.

At the end of Jesus' parable about the ungrateful servant in Matt 18:34 it says the king turned his servant "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."

"In Revelation 14:9-11:

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God&#8223;s fury, which has been poured full
strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the
presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for
ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his
image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"

Hell isn't some place where God's presence is missing and he just letting people be with their own choices to "reject God". God is presented here as an active participant.

That seems even worse to me.

It is. Good thing it isn't forever, huh? ;)

It'll only feel like an eternity.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/16/2012 8:18:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:44:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...

You used the words "unbearable grief" and "much weeping and gnashing of teeth" to describe the hell you believe in. How is this much better than hell-fire exactly?

Also, I'm not consciously denying God's love. I simply see no evidence or reason to assume this love actually exists. There is a vast difference between:

(i) Seeing no evidence or reason to believe this being exists.

(ii) Acknowledging God's love, assuming God actually does exist, and consciously denying it.

(ii) Would be my fault if this was the case, (i) however is purely God's fault. He could let me know he exists, or show me a sign or something if he truly loved me. This would not hinder with my free will, because I could still chose to deny his love even if I knew for sure he existed.

Imagine I love a girl and know exactly who she is, but she doesn't know I exist, and I cause her to weep and agony for the rest of her life because she denied my love. This wouldn't be fair at all, because she didn't even know I existed! It would be up to me to make the first move because I already know everything about her, and know her and her existence, when she has no reason to believe I even exist. Now, if she rejected me, she would still not deserve "unbearable grief".

Do I deserve unbearable grief just for not believing in God? Of course not. According to the Christian, I could be selfless, caring, kind to everyone I met, and an overall amazing person and still deserve unbearable grief and weeping after I die. This is appalling.

God would not cause this agony.

Taking your example: You love this girl and you try to catch her attention for her entire life. Then when she dies she finally sees you and in doing so wishes to be with you. However, now she can't because she never noticed you in life. You didn't cause her pain, she is now in pain because she realized what she lost and missed out on.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/16/2012 8:30:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 8:18:29 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:44:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...

You used the words "unbearable grief" and "much weeping and gnashing of teeth" to describe the hell you believe in. How is this much better than hell-fire exactly?

Also, I'm not consciously denying God's love. I simply see no evidence or reason to assume this love actually exists. There is a vast difference between:

(i) Seeing no evidence or reason to believe this being exists.

(ii) Acknowledging God's love, assuming God actually does exist, and consciously denying it.

(ii) Would be my fault if this was the case, (i) however is purely God's fault. He could let me know he exists, or show me a sign or something if he truly loved me. This would not hinder with my free will, because I could still chose to deny his love even if I knew for sure he existed.

Imagine I love a girl and know exactly who she is, but she doesn't know I exist, and I cause her to weep and agony for the rest of her life because she denied my love. This wouldn't be fair at all, because she didn't even know I existed! It would be up to me to make the first move because I already know everything about her, and know her and her existence, when she has no reason to believe I even exist. Now, if she rejected me, she would still not deserve "unbearable grief".

Do I deserve unbearable grief just for not believing in God? Of course not. According to the Christian, I could be selfless, caring, kind to everyone I met, and an overall amazing person and still deserve unbearable grief and weeping after I die. This is appalling.

God would not cause this agony.

Taking your example: You love this girl and you try to catch her attention for her entire life. Then when she dies she finally sees you and in doing so wishes to be with you. However, now she can't because she never noticed you in life. You didn't cause her pain, she is now in pain because she realized what she lost and missed out on.

I would say the Bible paints a picture that the girl knew all along that you loved her. But she still hated you regardless of what you did in good for her in providing for her. She dies in her hatred and so forth. There is another girl you love, but this girl in particular. You not only provide for her but also woo her and win her over. This one spends her life with you. The former being the reprobate and the latter being the church.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/16/2012 9:10:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

My thoughts exactly. There are far too many religions, and interpretations of the bible to know which to believe. If God does exist, it's obvious he doesn't give a hoot whether you believe or not.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
baggins
Posts: 855
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7/16/2012 10:55:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

God does know what goes on in your heart better than you do. You will get a chance to explain yourself on the day of judgement.

Whether God will send you to heaven or hell is an issue between you and God. God is indeed merciful, compassionate and loving. Everything we have; we owe it to all to Allah. God is also just and avenger towards people who deliberately indulge in evil. There will be no injustice on the day of judgement.

You seem to be very sure that you have a good reason for not believing in God. The world around us, all the things that grow, all the stars and planets - they are all testimony to God and his creative abilities.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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7/17/2012 7:07:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:38:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:12:36 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:08:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:41:01 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:39:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:28:17 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:26:36 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:24:04 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:09:57 PM, ATHOS wrote:
If the Christian God is real, and if their God is perfect, wouldn't his understanding also be perfect? Wouldn't he know and understand why I refuse to believe in him? And if he is truly compassionate, loving and merciful, shouldn't he spare me from the torments of hell?

Hell isn't what you think it is.

http://www.conservativepolitico.org...
Your understanding of hell is reminiscent of Dante Alighieri's first circle of hell. Although you accredit him with the creation of the popular fiction his first hell was indeed a forest were the inhabitants were forever without the presence of God.

Regardless, damnation is damnation. Neglect from God's graces is far worse than any fire that would burn the mortal body.

I agree in a sense. However, I detected the OP imagined hell as a place where you're boiled in oil by pointy headed demons and wanted to point out the evidence against such a place.

Once you understand hell in the way that God hasn't banished you to torment but rather you did not choose to join his fellowship you should get a completely different view of God. God did not turn his back on you, you turned your back on God and therefore do not get to dwell with him.

CP is correct. One gold star.

No he's not, but eh.

Could I get a rebuttal?

For one, even granting that most of the imagery used in the NT to describe hell is metaphorical (which it surely is) CP's picture of hell doesn't do justice to a lot of the texts. These texts don't speak as if hell is a choice taken upon by the human; they speak as a God imposed, forced punishment. God plays an active and present role in this punishment here. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46) this punishment is imposed on sinners and some will even regard it as a great surprise that they are getting punished.

At the end of Jesus' parable about the ungrateful servant in Matt 18:34 it says the king turned his servant "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."

"In Revelation 14:9-11:

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God&#8223;s fury, which has been poured full
strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the
presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for
ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his
image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"

Hell isn't some place where God's presence is missing and he just letting people be with their own choices to "reject God". God is presented here as an active participant.

That seems even worse to me.

It is. Good thing it isn't forever, huh? ;)

Yup, if I come out to be wrong, I hope you are right.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac