Total Posts:58|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Is belief in God a necessary condition?

Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

Basically, is belief in God a necessary condition with regards to not going to hell? If so, how does this make much sense? It seems that humans we would look up to as extremely wonderful people could suffer this fate, simply due to not believing in the God of The Bible... How do Christians make this proposition sound, well, not outrageous? It seems like a difficult task indeed..
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 6:55:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

Basically, is belief in God a necessary condition with regards to not going to hell? If so, how does this make much sense? It seems that humans we would look up to as extremely wonderful people could suffer this fate, simply due to not believing in the God of The Bible... How do Christians make this proposition sound, well, not outrageous? It seems like a difficult task indeed..

Christians will say yes, belief in God is necessary. They just say you choose to be away from God, so it's your fault. Sad, isn't it?
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:00:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

Yes

Basically, is belief in God a necessary condition with regards to not going to hell? If so, how does this make much sense? It seems that humans we would look up to as extremely wonderful people could suffer this fate, simply due to not believing in the God of The Bible... How do Christians make this proposition sound, well, not outrageous? It seems like a difficult task indeed..

It denies the power that such a person (the good atheist) is ordained by and necessarially steals the glory from God (whom the atheist moves in and by) and places it on the atheist.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:05:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I guess it depends who you ask, but I've seen it asserted several times that "accepting Jesus as your lord and savior" is more focal than being a good person. In other words, a "good" person who doesn't accept Jesus, is worse off than a "bad" person who does.

The concept is quite alienating to me, and while I don't like to discuss religion often, I usually chime in (often cynically) when I hear this concept being asserted.

I personally believe that if Heaven actually exists, it is gained by actual merit (by actions) and not simply by beliefs. However, if one believes god exists and therefore that is the reason their actions are "good", then I suppose it's a good thing (Morality through fear has proven to be a decent social motivator). Though I don't believe "good actions" (moral behavior) requires a belief in any god, and there are plenty of "good" people who don't believe in god, and plenty of "bad" people who do.

Ultimately the answer depends on the which "brand of god" (or moral guide) one ascribes too.
Debate.org Moderator
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:09:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

Basically, is belief in God a necessary condition with regards to not going to hell?

C' mon, you don't know the answer? It's obvious that belief in God is required to avoid hell. That's very basic Christian Theology.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:11:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:05:54 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I guess it depends who you ask, but I've seen it asserted several times that "accepting Jesus as your lord and savior" is more focal than being a good person. In other words, a "good" person who doesn't accept Jesus, is worse off than a "bad" person who does.

When I asked my Christian friend about evil people believing in Christ, he said that they as well go to hell, since they wouldn't have done evil things if they truly believed in Christ, and how loving Christ results in a change of hearth that makes one good.

So I don't think bad Christans go to Hell.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:11:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:00:07 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

Yes

Well, of course this is a huge turn off for non-believers who may consider Christianity at one point. It also makes no sense, I can see nothing immoral about not believing in a God. How this "good Atheist" as you put it, still deserves hell, is beyond me.


Basically, is belief in God a necessary condition with regards to not going to hell? If so, how does this make much sense? It seems that humans we would look up to as extremely wonderful people could suffer this fate, simply due to not believing in the God of The Bible... How do Christians make this proposition sound, well, not outrageous? It seems like a difficult task indeed..

It denies the power that such a person (the good atheist) is ordained by and necessarially steals the glory from God (whom the atheist moves in and by) and places it on the atheist.

This once more, isn't a satisfying answer and doesn't really connect. God may interpret the Atheist as stealing his glory, but being omniscient, he would know that don't believe he exists and am not consciously stealing anything from him. This would be saying that I was committing a crime, even when there is no Mens Rea in place, which of course is just silly.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:13:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:11:01 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:05:54 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I guess it depends who you ask, but I've seen it asserted several times that "accepting Jesus as your lord and savior" is more focal than being a good person. In other words, a "good" person who doesn't accept Jesus, is worse off than a "bad" person who does.

When I asked my Christian friend about evil people believing in Christ, he said that they as well go to hell, since they wouldn't have done evil things if they truly believed in Christ, and how loving Christ results in a change of hearth that makes one good.

So I don't think bad Christans go to Heaven.

Fix'd
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:17:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Depends on what you mean by belief. It could be de dicto, explict belief be required for salvation or it could be de re, implicit belief that also counts.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:19:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:11:01 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:05:54 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I guess it depends who you ask, but I've seen it asserted several times that "accepting Jesus as your lord and savior" is more focal than being a good person. In other words, a "good" person who doesn't accept Jesus, is worse off than a "bad" person who does.

When I asked my Christian friend about evil people believing in Christ, he said that they as well go to hell, since they wouldn't have done evil things if they truly believed in Christ, and how loving Christ results in a change of hearth that makes one good.

So I don't think bad Christans go to Hell.

Belief in god doesn't change ones ability to rationalize. There are plenty of people who truly believe in god, or Jesus, and will still lie, steal, or harm others. In fact, it could be their "true" belief that causes them to rationalize it. Like someone blowing up an abortion clinic, or a suicide bomber running into a crowd of innocent people.

Belief in god doesn't inherently make someone "good" and a lack of belief in god doesn't necessarily mean someone is "bad", or lacks good morals.

We should be judged by our actions, and our actions alone, if any god is judging based on what someone believes and not how they act (whether in accordance with those beliefs or not) is not a god worth believing in. At least that's what I believe, but I'm not marketing any particular brand of god.
Debate.org Moderator
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:20:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 6:55:39 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

Basically, is belief in God a necessary condition with regards to not going to hell? If so, how does this make much sense? It seems that humans we would look up to as extremely wonderful people could suffer this fate, simply due to not believing in the God of The Bible... How do Christians make this proposition sound, well, not outrageous? It seems like a difficult task indeed..

Christians will say yes, belief in God is necessary. They just say you choose to be away from God, so it's your fault. Sad, isn't it?

Christians are actually pretty split on this issue. At least from what I have gathered.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:21:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:11:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:00:07 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

Yes

Well, of course this is a huge turn off for non-believers who may consider Christianity at one point. It also makes no sense, I can see nothing immoral about not believing in a God. How this "good Atheist" as you put it, still deserves hell, is beyond me.

My goal is more to ellaborate on Christian doctrine then it is to coerce people into believing something that is not ;)

It is immoral because the 'good atheist' though being empowered by God, and his sinful nature being restrained by God lives a life that rejects that power and necessarially steals it for himself. The God that empowers him to do good he rejects. When I say rejects I also imply hate, loathe, etc.

Basically, is belief in God a necessary condition with regards to not going to hell? If so, how does this make much sense? It seems that humans we would look up to as extremely wonderful people could suffer this fate, simply due to not believing in the God of The Bible... How do Christians make this proposition sound, well, not outrageous? It seems like a difficult task indeed..

It denies the power that such a person (the good atheist) is ordained by and necessarially steals the glory from God (whom the atheist moves in and by) and places it on the atheist.

This once more, isn't a satisfying answer and doesn't really connect. God may interpret the Atheist as stealing his glory, but being omniscient, he would know that don't believe he exists and am not consciously stealing anything from him. This would be saying that I was committing a crime, even when there is no Mens Rea in place, which of course is just silly.

It does not bother me if it is satisfying or not. Atheists find the majority of Christian doctrine unsatisfying. That should not change what Christians teach/believe. I suppose it does not 'connect' because one may lack an understanding of the holiness of God and the glory of God. The holiness of God prevents him of overlooking sin. Disbelief is a sin. Ergo, disbelief = sin = punishment. Every action the atheist does he owes to God. Rejecting that God strips the glory from God and places it square on the will of the atheist. So, the 'good atheist' according to Christian doctrine is really not good at all. The good he does he owes to God, along with any glory that is had.

If God is sovereign that means everything you do God is the penultimate cause. This does not make God responsible for our actions but is more accurate to say that He brings reality to our actions. Gods ordination determins (sets sure) what will happen. The atheist disregards this and thus everything God has done in providence for the atheist. Also, the whole notion of a 'good atheist' is blabber to Christian doctrine as there is no such thing.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:22:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I will say this, and it may seem random. I think it is better to not believe and lead a moral life, than to believe and lead an immoral life.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:23:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:17:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Depends on what you mean by belief. It could be de dicto, explict belief be required for salvation or it could be de re, implicit belief that also counts.

Wtf? Be real man, c'mon.

Explicit belief and implicit belief? Which is acceptable and how are each of those defined?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:23:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:13:44 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:11:01 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:05:54 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I guess it depends who you ask, but I've seen it asserted several times that "accepting Jesus as your lord and savior" is more focal than being a good person. In other words, a "good" person who doesn't accept Jesus, is worse off than a "bad" person who does.

When I asked my Christian friend about evil people believing in Christ, he said that they as well go to hell, since they wouldn't have done evil things if they truly believed in Christ, and how loving Christ results in a change of hearth that makes one good.

So I don't think bad Christans go to Heaven.

Fix'd

The actions one does according to Christian doctrine paints a clearer picture of what one actually believes. If a professing Christian lives a perpetual lifestyle of sin with no form of repentance or guilt then the Bible says it is clear that their confession is nothing more then an act of the flesh and not the spirit. Ergo, they are not really Christians.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.
acvavra
Posts: 318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:32:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jesus said He was the only Way to Heaven(John 14:6)."No MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me." Thus, belief in God is absolutely neessary. John 10 says "If any man COME UP ANY OTHER WAY(baptism, good deeds, good person) He is a thief and a robber."
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:34:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment. What would help is scripture verses. Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from? We can accept what we so desire but if its Christian doctrine you desire to know then simply accept that that is what Christians believe.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:35:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

That's how I roll.

It saddens me when Christians try to use the threat of hell to convince people to believe.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:36:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:23:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:17:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Depends on what you mean by belief. It could be de dicto, explict belief be required for salvation or it could be de re, implicit belief that also counts.

Wtf? Be real man, c'mon.

Explicit belief and implicit belief? Which is acceptable and how are each of those defined?

From one of my debates:

"Another important point I want to make is the distinction between de re and de dicto belief. [4] De dicto literally means "of the word" and a de dicto belief will be will have a "that-clause" in it. De re literally means "of the thing" and a de re belief is one where the believer believes that something has a particular property.

An example illustrates the distinction clearly:

For instance, suppose that Mary Jane has the de dicto belief that Spiderman has the Spidey-sense. Mary Jane does not know that Spiderman is the same person as Peter Parker but she also has the de re belief that Peter Parker has the Spidey-sense. She does not realize she has this belief but she does as she believes that Spiderman ("the thing") has the property of "possessing the Spidey-sense". If Peter Parker and Spiderman are the same person then it follows that he also has that particular property.

The relevance this has to rebutting the ANB argument can't be understated. The ANB seems to assume that a de dicto belief is required as unitedandy indicates in the first round: "To develop a meaningful and loving relationship with Him, we have to believe that he exists in the first place. Now, anyone who has had a personal relationship before knows that a necessary condition for the relationship described above is at the very least believing that they exist." What reason is there to accept the claim that there must exist de dicto belief to form a personal relationship? None that I can see in this case either.

So we have seen that neither a high degree of belief nor de dicto belief are required for a personal relationship and Dougherty and Poston have an example to make it the cases more clear: "Again in a moment of need some extra money shows up in your account. You do not know if this is a mistake or if someone has given you this money. For whatever reason, it just doesn't occur to you to ask the bank to figure it out. You suspect, though, that someone has in fact transferred this money to you and you think to yourself, 'Thank you, whoever you are.' Now in this case you have neither de dicto belief nor a very high degree of belief, but—especially if the other person can read your mind—it is fair to say that the two of you have a meaningful relationship." [5]

Putting these two epistemological objections together seems to me to seriously hamper the ANB as it seems to rely on false assumptions. If we can see that a personal relationship can be had without either a high degree of confidence in a belief and without de dicto belief in cases of normal human relationships it's hard to see how either of those kinds of beliefs are necessary in the case of a personal relationship between God and humans. Indeed, if we accept that God has the essential property of goodness, that is, he is The Good - to put it in Platonic terms - it may be that people who believe in The Good and do the right things have a de re belief in God but do not have an explicit de dicto belief in God."
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:41:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:34:18 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment. What would help is scripture verses. Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from? We can accept what we so desire but if its Christian doctrine you desire to know then simply accept that that is what Christians believe.

"People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment."

They also tend to make up Gods from scratch too ;)

"Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from?"

There is much disagreement on interpretations. So, simply interpreting the scriptures myself isn't really going to give me a solid picture regarding what most Christians believe. It seems there is the odd Christian or two like johnnyboy54, but most believe that belief in God is a necessary condition for not going to hell, regardless of how good you have lead your life or how well you treat people.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:42:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:34:18 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment. What would help is scripture verses. Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from? We can accept what we so desire but if its Christian doctrine you desire to know then simply accept that that is what Christians believe.

If God is perfectly just, then how can he hold you accountable for ignorance of which you have no fault? One of the prerequisites to mortal sin is knowledge that you are sinning.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:43:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:35:09 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:

It saddens me when Christians try to use the threat of hell to convince people to believe.

Yeah. This.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:43:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:41:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:34:18 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment. What would help is scripture verses. Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from? We can accept what we so desire but if its Christian doctrine you desire to know then simply accept that that is what Christians believe.

"People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment."

They also tend to make up Gods from scratch too ;)

Indeed.

"Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from?"

There is much disagreement on interpretations. So, simply interpreting the scriptures myself isn't really going to give me a solid picture regarding what most Christians believe. It seems there is the odd Christian or two like johnnyboy54, but most believe that belief in God is a necessary condition for not going to hell, regardless of how good you have lead your life or how well you treat people.

There is much interpretation for many things in scripture. However, most of it comes from an ignorance of scripture or bad logic.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:43:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:42:24 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:34:18 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment. What would help is scripture verses. Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from? We can accept what we so desire but if its Christian doctrine you desire to know then simply accept that that is what Christians believe.

If God is perfectly just, then how can he hold you accountable for ignorance of which you have no fault? One of the prerequisites to mortal sin is knowledge that you are sinning.

He's a Calvinist, man....
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:44:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:43:40 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:41:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:34:18 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment. What would help is scripture verses. Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from? We can accept what we so desire but if its Christian doctrine you desire to know then simply accept that that is what Christians believe.

"People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment."

They also tend to make up Gods from scratch too ;)

Indeed.

"Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from?"

There is much disagreement on interpretations. So, simply interpreting the scriptures myself isn't really going to give me a solid picture regarding what most Christians believe. It seems there is the odd Christian or two like johnnyboy54, but most believe that belief in God is a necessary condition for not going to hell, regardless of how good you have lead your life or how well you treat people.

There is much interpretation for many things in scripture. However, most of it comes from an ignorance of scripture or bad logic.

***misinterpretation
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:44:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:43:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:42:24 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:34:18 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment. What would help is scripture verses. Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from? We can accept what we so desire but if its Christian doctrine you desire to know then simply accept that that is what Christians believe.

If God is perfectly just, then how can he hold you accountable for ignorance of which you have no fault? One of the prerequisites to mortal sin is knowledge that you are sinning.

He's a Calvinist, man....

yea lolz
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:45:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:44:53 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:43:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:42:24 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:34:18 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment. What would help is scripture verses. Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from? We can accept what we so desire but if its Christian doctrine you desire to know then simply accept that that is what Christians believe.

If God is perfectly just, then how can he hold you accountable for ignorance of which you have no fault? One of the prerequisites to mortal sin is knowledge that you are sinning.

He's a Calvinist, man....

yea lolz

glad you recognized that lolz
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2012 7:47:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:42:24 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:34:18 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:28:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:20:23 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 6:52:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If person x was selfless, caring, loving, kind to everyone this person met, sacrificing, and just an overall amazing person, would this person deserve/ go to hell due to not believing in God?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." From somewhere in the Catholic Catechism.

Essentially, it depends on the nature of the person's disbelief and how they act in their lives. Since God cannot hold people accountable for true ignorance (due to the principle of justice), then God will not punish you for it.

No one really knows how God will judge you, because no one but God knows how honestly you have lead your life.

Hope this helps.

This is a much more rational and appealing view of God. It seems much more welcoming than "don't believe? Hell for you!".

Thank you for your input.

People tend to fasion Gods of their own liking/imagination/appealment. What would help is scripture verses. Why determine to set out to try and understand Christian doctrine without seeking where that doctrine comes from? We can accept what we so desire but if its Christian doctrine you desire to know then simply accept that that is what Christians believe.

If God is perfectly just, then how can he hold you accountable for ignorance of which you have no fault? One of the prerequisites to mortal sin is knowledge that you are sinning.

Because your ignorance is your fault. I can steal from my neighbor and not realize via ignorance it was wrong. Will I still be found guilty? Yes. But the bible does not paint us in a picture of helpless 'retarded' individuals ignorantly sinning against God. It paints our hearts as intentionally knowling sinning against God.