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Why Hell Is Forever

acvavra
Posts: 318
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7/16/2012 7:44:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you sinned against me, you could pay for it here in prison, or until I died. But what are you going to do when you sin against an ETERNAL BEING? Why you would have to pay for it, FOREVER! Us Christians, saw the truth and eternal torments of Hell, and took the escape hatch, Jesus Christ! We dont want to see you non- Christians go to Hell, so we are warning you now. Just hope you know we Christians care!
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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7/16/2012 7:54:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:44:27 PM, acvavra wrote:
If you sinned against me, you could pay for it here in prison, or until I died. But what are you going to do when you sin against an ETERNAL BEING? Why you would have to pay for it, FOREVER! Us Christians, saw the truth and eternal torments of Hell, and took the escape hatch, Jesus Christ! We dont want to see you non- Christians go to Hell, so we are warning you now. Just hope you know we Christians care!

If he was merciful, id expect to be released.

If the eternal being was just and good and merciful, he would see that i did not murder, i did not rape, i did not steal. Do i deserve the same sentence as Hitler? As a rapist serial killer? Of course not. An eternal being has a brain, he would know this.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/16/2012 8:01:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:54:59 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:44:27 PM, acvavra wrote:
If you sinned against me, you could pay for it here in prison, or until I died. But what are you going to do when you sin against an ETERNAL BEING? Why you would have to pay for it, FOREVER! Us Christians, saw the truth and eternal torments of Hell, and took the escape hatch, Jesus Christ! We dont want to see you non- Christians go to Hell, so we are warning you now. Just hope you know we Christians care!

If he was merciful, id expect to be released.

If the eternal being was just and good and merciful, he would see that i did not murder, i did not rape, i did not steal. Do i deserve the same sentence as Hitler? As a rapist serial killer? Of course not. An eternal being has a brain, he would know this.

If I were merciful and unjust I would agree with you. If it were not for the restraining force of God I would make Hitler look like a chior boy. The only reason you do not rape/murder/steal etc. is because God is restraining our wicked hearts. Atleast according to scripture. God gives some over to the desires of their hearts (sin) and has mercy on others by regenerating them and granting them faith. In that manner He is just and merciful. I suppose the only logical question really is what determines the punishment of the sin? The Bible says that sin = punishment via hell. I do not know of a way to understand the court of God aside that it is God who established it. Hell being hell because God is holy makes sense to me though.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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7/16/2012 8:13:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"How can God be both just and merciful?" a theologian asks.

"Easy! He's merciful because he lets you screw up, instead of just sending you straight to hell, and he's just because when you screw up at all, you get sent to hell!" Another theologian replies.

"Wait...that's not merciful nor just!" The atheist says.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/16/2012 8:17:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 8:13:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
"How can God be both just and merciful?" a theologian asks.

"Easy! He's merciful because he lets you screw up, instead of just sending you straight to hell, and he's just because when you screw up at all, you get sent to hell!" Another theologian replies.

Correction: Theolgian says: by saving whom He wills and giving the rest what the desire which in turn deserves hell

"Wait...that's not merciful nor just!" The atheist says.

Atheist says: Wait!..... Thats not fair!

Roleplaying is fun. This website is more addictive then Skyrim and Civ 5
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/16/2012 9:09:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
An eternity in hell is a gimick to make people believe.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
joneszj
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7/16/2012 9:10:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:09:31 PM, EvanK wrote:
An eternity in hell is a gimick to make people believe.

If so, it 1) failed miserably, and 2) as a gimick is inconsistant with the whole of scripture.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/16/2012 9:12:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:10:44 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:09:31 PM, EvanK wrote:
An eternity in hell is a gimick to make people believe.

If so, it 1) failed miserably, and 2) as a gimick is inconsistant with the whole of scripture.

Not sure what you mean by "inconsistant with the whole of scripture". The scripture I was taught, told of eternity in hell for non believers and sinners. What I was taught as a Catholic anyway.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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7/16/2012 9:15:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:09:31 PM, EvanK wrote:
An eternity in hell is a gimick to make people believe.

Unsubstantiated assertion is unsubstantiated

However I will not deny that people use the doctrine of hell to manipulate people.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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7/16/2012 9:20:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's eternal because God says so. Don't like it? Convert. amirite?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/16/2012 9:22:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:15:52 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:09:31 PM, EvanK wrote:
An eternity in hell is a gimick to make people believe.

Unsubstantiated assertion is unsubstantiated

However I will not deny that people use the doctrine of hell to manipulate people.

The assertion of hell is unsubstantiated. I'm not going to base my life on a mythical place of which there is no proof of existence. Some people obviously believe it, really and truely believe it. That's fine. But the ones who constantly preach hate (you find them in any sect of Christianity) are doing it for control reasons imho. Why else would they give a hoot what you do with your life? It doesn't concern them in the least...
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/16/2012 9:25:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:20:51 PM, Maikuru wrote:
It's eternal because God says so. Don't like it? Convert. amirite?

The Greeks believed in hell as well, only their God wasn't the Judeo-Christian God, it was their own Gods and Goddesses. Should I worship Zeus?

Basically every religion preaches of hell (haven't studied every religion, so I wouldn't know if they all do), so which version of hell should I try to avoid?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/16/2012 9:27:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:12:34 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:10:44 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:09:31 PM, EvanK wrote:
An eternity in hell is a gimick to make people believe.

If so, it 1) failed miserably, and 2) as a gimick is inconsistant with the whole of scripture.

Not sure what you mean by "inconsistant with the whole of scripture". The scripture I was taught, told of eternity in hell for non believers and sinners. What I was taught as a Catholic anyway.

If it is a gimick then by who? God or the church? If God then we have a serious problem. If the church, then where, when, and why? I could offer a reason for both senarios. What I meant with it being inconsistent if it were a gimick is that the nature and context of hell is not something ambiguous and 'quarintined' in small particular places in the Bible and if hell is a gimick then alot almost even the majority of the Bible is a gimick. So, we aught to ask ourselves if the teaching of hell is consistent or inconsistent with scripture. To do that we would have to look at the whole thing. Its a redemption story. What is it redeeming from? Why does it often mention condemnation, sheol, judgement, 'hell', salvation, law, justice, evil? Hell 'fits' consistently with the Bible itself. If it fits then why would anyone simply 'reject' it as a gimick unless they had proof? If it is consistent with the Bible then the church teaching it is teaching what God is teaching. It being (atleast to my observation backed by the vast majority of church history) consistent then calling it a gimick is calling God a bluffer. Well thats my deduction anywayz. Your profile lists you as an agnostic. Is there anything you believe in the Bible and just certain things here and there (not asked in any condesending way)?
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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7/16/2012 9:28:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What if we "choose still our own way" upon death and enter eternally away from God into hell, where we finally experience the last absolute last return of happiness in Hell, shouldn't God permit an annihilationism of sorts?

I see no reason to think otherwise.

If created persons made an unjust-good-seeking self forming choice [SFC] & never reversed course, they would "choose to pursue what is intrinsically good in a way that casts the restraint that is a prerequisite for experiencing perfect happiness to the winds [thereby] resulting in a just exclusion from heaven & confinement in hell." (Goetz)

I suppose Hellion happiness is still possible however, albeit imperfect happiness. But God's retributive justice entails that the separation of persons on the basis of their choices into two modes of existence: Heaven, domain of justly sought happiness, includes occupants who make just-good-seeking SFC's and Hell includes those occupants who make unjust-good-seeking SFC's.

Both parties in each mode are permanently isolated from each other to do as they please. Thus the Heaven-Hell dichotomy is ultimately about how a person chooses to live his life in the pursuit of intrinsic good. Hell, then, is the "state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God & the blessed"
(Catechism of the Catholic Church 1995, sec. 1033).

Lewis cashes out this conclusion: "Either the day must come when joy prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it or else forever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness they reject for themselves … the damned are, in one sense, successful rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside … In the long run the answer to all those who object to the doctrine of hell, is itself a question:

‘What are you asking God to do?'

To wipe out their past sins and, at all costs, to given them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help? But He has done so, on Calvary.
To forgive them? They will not be forgiven.
To leave them alone? Alas, I am afraid that is what He does."

Tragically then there are two kinds of people in the end, the man who says to God, "thy will be done" and to who God says "thy will be done." Hellions choose to pursue good on their own terms wanting nothing to do with others who insisted on pursuing good on other terms. And insofar as Heavenians choose justly in this life they defeat evil, ensuring a justly bestowed Wq. For "an experience of what is a person's greatest good must be had only by those who deserve it."

The expectation of a non-Christian eternity involves sin & its moral vices which may well bring temporal happiness, albeit through immoral means.
Reason_Alliance
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7/16/2012 9:34:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Where "Wq" is what I refer to as "Wholeness qualia" meaning the experience of being made Whole in order to justly experience perfect happiness.

Sorry, I forgot to define terms. But yeah that's more or less my view on the matter.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/16/2012 9:39:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:27:12 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:12:34 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:10:44 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:09:31 PM, EvanK wrote:
An eternity in hell is a gimick to make people believe.

If so, it 1) failed miserably, and 2) as a gimick is inconsistant with the whole of scripture.

Not sure what you mean by "inconsistant with the whole of scripture". The scripture I was taught, told of eternity in hell for non believers and sinners. What I was taught as a Catholic anyway.

If it is a gimick then by who? God or the church? If God then we have a serious problem. If the church, then where, when, and why? I could offer a reason for both senarios. What I meant with it being inconsistent if it were a gimick is that the nature and context of hell is not something ambiguous and 'quarintined' in small particular places in the Bible and if hell is a gimick then alot almost even the majority of the Bible is a gimick. So, we aught to ask ourselves if the teaching of hell is consistent or inconsistent with scripture. To do that we would have to look at the whole thing. Its a redemption story. What is it redeeming from? Why does it often mention condemnation, sheol, judgement, 'hell', salvation, law, justice, evil? Hell 'fits' consistently with the Bible itself. If it fits then why would anyone simply 'reject' it as a gimick unless they had proof? If it is consistent with the Bible then the church teaching it is teaching what God is teaching. It being (atleast to my observation backed by the vast majority of church history) consistent then calling it a gimick is calling God a bluffer. Well thats my deduction anywayz. Your profile lists you as an agnostic. Is there anything you believe in the Bible and just certain things here and there (not asked in any condesending way)?

I'll start off with your last question. I leave everything open to possibility, including a return to the Catholic Church. I'm probably more Deistic than Agnostic, but I really just don't believe any explanation of God, for reasons I could (but won't) drone on about. I believe the bible has important moral lessons in them, I will most certainly not deny that. But as far as being historically accurate, I don't believe so. By that, I mean I don't believe in any of the miracles that supposedly took place, such as Noah's ark or the plauges of Egypt. A great flood may have happened, and events similar to the plauges may have happened, but in my opinion, God didn't intercede in the world to make it happen. I don't believe in the story of creation either, due to scientific reasons.

I will not deny the existence of certain characters in the bible, but the events I do question. So the answer is, I give the bible some weight, but do not believe it to be the word of God.

So to move on to your other point, I believe that the people who preach hell are wrong, because I do not see any evidence of it. I believe that there are preachers and priests in every sect of Christianity, as well as every religion, that really and truely believe in hell, and preach it. The one's I claim are doing it as a gimick (and I do apologize for not making this clearer in my original post) are those who radically preach hatred and hell, such as the Westboro Baptists (if you haven't heard of them, google them, or perhaps watch one of their dispicable military funeral protests on youtube). Those people are doing it to gain control over people, for the sheer joy of controlling people, imho. Harold Camping? Preaches the end of times several times, and he made a boat load of money off of it.

So, to sum up, there are those who preach of hell because they believe it, and there are those who do it to gain control and money. What control? They will be able to tell people how to live their lives if he can convince them enough. And it does happen.

To answer your question, I do not believe the bible to be the truth, and so I do not believe in hell. I should have worded my OP better, and said that a lot, but not everyone, uses hell as a gimick. Sorry for any confusion.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/16/2012 9:46:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:39:18 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:27:12 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:12:34 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:10:44 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:09:31 PM, EvanK wrote:
An eternity in hell is a gimick to make people believe.

If so, it 1) failed miserably, and 2) as a gimick is inconsistant with the whole of scripture.

Not sure what you mean by "inconsistant with the whole of scripture". The scripture I was taught, told of eternity in hell for non believers and sinners. What I was taught as a Catholic anyway.

If it is a gimick then by who? God or the church? If God then we have a serious problem. If the church, then where, when, and why? I could offer a reason for both senarios. What I meant with it being inconsistent if it were a gimick is that the nature and context of hell is not something ambiguous and 'quarintined' in small particular places in the Bible and if hell is a gimick then alot almost even the majority of the Bible is a gimick. So, we aught to ask ourselves if the teaching of hell is consistent or inconsistent with scripture. To do that we would have to look at the whole thing. Its a redemption story. What is it redeeming from? Why does it often mention condemnation, sheol, judgement, 'hell', salvation, law, justice, evil? Hell 'fits' consistently with the Bible itself. If it fits then why would anyone simply 'reject' it as a gimick unless they had proof? If it is consistent with the Bible then the church teaching it is teaching what God is teaching. It being (atleast to my observation backed by the vast majority of church history) consistent then calling it a gimick is calling God a bluffer. Well thats my deduction anywayz. Your profile lists you as an agnostic. Is there anything you believe in the Bible and just certain things here and there (not asked in any condesending way)?

I'll start off with your last question. I leave everything open to possibility, including a return to the Catholic Church. I'm probably more Deistic than Agnostic, but I really just don't believe any explanation of God, for reasons I could (but won't) drone on about. I believe the bible has important moral lessons in them, I will most certainly not deny that. But as far as being historically accurate, I don't believe so. By that, I mean I don't believe in any of the miracles that supposedly took place, such as Noah's ark or the plauges of Egypt. A great flood may have happened, and events similar to the plauges may have happened, but in my opinion, God didn't intercede in the world to make it happen. I don't believe in the story of creation either, due to scientific reasons.

I will not deny the existence of certain characters in the bible, but the events I do question. So the answer is, I give the bible some weight, but do not believe it to be the word of God.

So to move on to your other point, I believe that the people who preach hell are wrong, because I do not see any evidence of it. I believe that there are preachers and priests in every sect of Christianity, as well as every religion, that really and truely believe in hell, and preach it. The one's I claim are doing it as a gimick (and I do apologize for not making this clearer in my original post) are those who radically preach hatred and hell, such as the Westboro Baptists (if you haven't heard of them, google them, or perhaps watch one of their dispicable military funeral protests on youtube). Those people are doing it to gain control over people, for the sheer joy of controlling people, imho. Harold Camping? Preaches the end of times several times, and he made a boat load of money off of it.

So, to sum up, there are those who preach of hell because they believe it, and there are those who do it to gain control and money. What control? They will be able to tell people how to live their lives if he can convince them enough. And it does happen.

To answer your question, I do not believe the bible to be the truth, and so I do not believe in hell. I should have worded my OP better, and said that a lot, but not everyone, uses hell as a gimick. Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks for the clarification. As for the WBC I honestly do not believe they are doing it out of leverage or power hunger. Imho believe they are teaching something that is biblically consistent on the level of orthodoxy (teaching) but not on the level of orthpraxy (practice). They ought to teach in love and gentleness but perhaps that is how they view love and gentleness though I would disagree to such. Camping has to my knowledge revoked his false prophesying. Don't know much else about him. They 'kind' of people I relate also to much of the properity preaching where it seems to me that they preach to give your money to their ministry and God will heal your sickness, or children, or pockets.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/16/2012 9:55:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:46:06 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:39:18 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:27:12 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:12:34 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:10:44 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:09:31 PM, EvanK wrote:
An eternity in hell is a gimick to make people believe.

If so, it 1) failed miserably, and 2) as a gimick is inconsistant with the whole of scripture.

Not sure what you mean by "inconsistant with the whole of scripture". The scripture I was taught, told of eternity in hell for non believers and sinners. What I was taught as a Catholic anyway.

If it is a gimick then by who? God or the church? If God then we have a serious problem. If the church, then where, when, and why? I could offer a reason for both senarios. What I meant with it being inconsistent if it were a gimick is that the nature and context of hell is not something ambiguous and 'quarintined' in small particular places in the Bible and if hell is a gimick then alot almost even the majority of the Bible is a gimick. So, we aught to ask ourselves if the teaching of hell is consistent or inconsistent with scripture. To do that we would have to look at the whole thing. Its a redemption story. What is it redeeming from? Why does it often mention condemnation, sheol, judgement, 'hell', salvation, law, justice, evil? Hell 'fits' consistently with the Bible itself. If it fits then why would anyone simply 'reject' it as a gimick unless they had proof? If it is consistent with the Bible then the church teaching it is teaching what God is teaching. It being (atleast to my observation backed by the vast majority of church history) consistent then calling it a gimick is calling God a bluffer. Well thats my deduction anywayz. Your profile lists you as an agnostic. Is there anything you believe in the Bible and just certain things here and there (not asked in any condesending way)?

I'll start off with your last question. I leave everything open to possibility, including a return to the Catholic Church. I'm probably more Deistic than Agnostic, but I really just don't believe any explanation of God, for reasons I could (but won't) drone on about. I believe the bible has important moral lessons in them, I will most certainly not deny that. But as far as being historically accurate, I don't believe so. By that, I mean I don't believe in any of the miracles that supposedly took place, such as Noah's ark or the plauges of Egypt. A great flood may have happened, and events similar to the plauges may have happened, but in my opinion, God didn't intercede in the world to make it happen. I don't believe in the story of creation either, due to scientific reasons.

I will not deny the existence of certain characters in the bible, but the events I do question. So the answer is, I give the bible some weight, but do not believe it to be the word of God.

So to move on to your other point, I believe that the people who preach hell are wrong, because I do not see any evidence of it. I believe that there are preachers and priests in every sect of Christianity, as well as every religion, that really and truely believe in hell, and preach it. The one's I claim are doing it as a gimick (and I do apologize for not making this clearer in my original post) are those who radically preach hatred and hell, such as the Westboro Baptists (if you haven't heard of them, google them, or perhaps watch one of their dispicable military funeral protests on youtube). Those people are doing it to gain control over people, for the sheer joy of controlling people, imho. Harold Camping? Preaches the end of times several times, and he made a boat load of money off of it.

So, to sum up, there are those who preach of hell because they believe it, and there are those who do it to gain control and money. What control? They will be able to tell people how to live their lives if he can convince them enough. And it does happen.

To answer your question, I do not believe the bible to be the truth, and so I do not believe in hell. I should have worded my OP better, and said that a lot, but not everyone, uses hell as a gimick. Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks for the clarification. As for the WBC I honestly do not believe they are doing it out of leverage or power hunger. Imho believe they are teaching something that is biblically consistent on the level of orthodoxy (teaching) but not on the level of orthpraxy (practice). They ought to teach in love and gentleness but perhaps that is how they view love and gentleness though I would disagree to such.

No problem. And I do agree, their methods could be better. Having seen some of the people who run it (on the internet) I cannot discern whether they really believe, or do it for money/power, but I wouldn't put that past them.

Camping has to my knowledge revoked his false prophesying. Don't know much else about him. They 'kind' of people I relate also to much of the properity preaching where it seems to me that they preach to give your money to their ministry and God will heal your sickness, or children, or pockets.

Camping has retired I believe, following a stroke. But I heard he made tens of millions off of his latest scheme. And I do agree that a lot of churches scam you with the prayer offerings. If I want to donate to help sick kids or poor people, I'll donate to a charity I know will help.

But I do want to note that I'm not in anyway anti-religon/anti-Christian. I'm just wary of the big religious fiends trying to get more money and power. I cannot deny the good Christianity can do. I just don't see it as the truth.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Reason_Alliance
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7/16/2012 9:58:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:52:28 PM, drafterman wrote:
No crime deserves eternal punishment.

No it doesn't. But you haven't contended with my view of hell up there.
tkubok
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7/16/2012 10:45:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 8:01:41 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:54:59 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:44:27 PM, acvavra wrote:
If you sinned against me, you could pay for it here in prison, or until I died. But what are you going to do when you sin against an ETERNAL BEING? Why you would have to pay for it, FOREVER! Us Christians, saw the truth and eternal torments of Hell, and took the escape hatch, Jesus Christ! We dont want to see you non- Christians go to Hell, so we are warning you now. Just hope you know we Christians care!

If he was merciful, id expect to be released.

If the eternal being was just and good and merciful, he would see that i did not murder, i did not rape, i did not steal. Do i deserve the same sentence as Hitler? As a rapist serial killer? Of course not. An eternal being has a brain, he would know this.

If I were merciful and unjust I would agree with you. If it were not for the restraining force of God I would make Hitler look like a chior boy. The only reason you do not rape/murder/steal etc. is because God is restraining our wicked hearts. Atleast according to scripture. God gives some over to the desires of their hearts (sin) and has mercy on others by regenerating them and granting them faith. In that manner He is just and merciful. I suppose the only logical question really is what determines the punishment of the sin? The Bible says that sin = punishment via hell. I do not know of a way to understand the court of God aside that it is God who established it. Hell being hell because God is holy makes sense to me though.

If God is restraining my wicked heart, where does free will play into this. How do i have free will, if God is the one who is preventing me from doing evil?
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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7/17/2012 6:13:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 10:45:57 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/16/2012 8:01:41 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:54:59 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:44:27 PM, acvavra wrote:
If you sinned against me, you could pay for it here in prison, or until I died. But what are you going to do when you sin against an ETERNAL BEING? Why you would have to pay for it, FOREVER! Us Christians, saw the truth and eternal torments of Hell, and took the escape hatch, Jesus Christ! We dont want to see you non- Christians go to Hell, so we are warning you now. Just hope you know we Christians care!

If he was merciful, id expect to be released.

If the eternal being was just and good and merciful, he would see that i did not murder, i did not rape, i did not steal. Do i deserve the same sentence as Hitler? As a rapist serial killer? Of course not. An eternal being has a brain, he would know this.

If I were merciful and unjust I would agree with you. If it were not for the restraining force of God I would make Hitler look like a chior boy. The only reason you do not rape/murder/steal etc. is because God is restraining our wicked hearts. Atleast according to scripture. God gives some over to the desires of their hearts (sin) and has mercy on others by regenerating them and granting them faith. In that manner He is just and merciful. I suppose the only logical question really is what determines the punishment of the sin? The Bible says that sin = punishment via hell. I do not know of a way to understand the court of God aside that it is God who established it. Hell being hell because God is holy makes sense to me though.

If God is restraining my wicked heart, where does free will play into this. How do i have free will, if God is the one who is preventing me from doing evil?

^Agreed
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/17/2012 6:47:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:25:09 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:20:51 PM, Maikuru wrote:
It's eternal because God says so. Don't like it? Convert. amirite?

The Greeks believed in hell as well, only their God wasn't the Judeo-Christian God, it was their own Gods and Goddesses. Should I worship Zeus?

Basically every religion preaches of hell (haven't studied every religion, so I wouldn't know if they all do), so which version of hell should I try to avoid?

Ah, but the Greeks believed that Hell was universal, that their gods and other gods were the same (see the Egyptian gods and the Greek conception of them), and that all people went to the same place after death (see the Illiad and the Odyssey). Conversion is not something that they did.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/17/2012 6:48:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:25:09 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:20:51 PM, Maikuru wrote:
It's eternal because God says so. Don't like it? Convert. amirite?

The Greeks believed in hell as well, only their God wasn't the Judeo-Christian God, it was their own Gods and Goddesses. Should I worship Zeus?

Basically every religion preaches of hell (haven't studied every religion, so I wouldn't know if they all do), so which version of hell should I try to avoid?

Also, a lot of Eastern Religions preach reincarnation.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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7/17/2012 6:59:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 6:48:15 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:25:09 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:20:51 PM, Maikuru wrote:
It's eternal because God says so. Don't like it? Convert. amirite?

The Greeks believed in hell as well, only their God wasn't the Judeo-Christian God, it was their own Gods and Goddesses. Should I worship Zeus?

Basically every religion preaches of hell (haven't studied every religion, so I wouldn't know if they all do), so which version of hell should I try to avoid?

Also, a lot of Eastern Religions preach reincarnation.

If you live your life badly enough, you get reincarnated as an animal...I guess that could be considered hell...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/17/2012 7:01:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 6:59:34 AM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 7/17/2012 6:48:15 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:25:09 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:20:51 PM, Maikuru wrote:
It's eternal because God says so. Don't like it? Convert. amirite?

The Greeks believed in hell as well, only their God wasn't the Judeo-Christian God, it was their own Gods and Goddesses. Should I worship Zeus?

Basically every religion preaches of hell (haven't studied every religion, so I wouldn't know if they all do), so which version of hell should I try to avoid?

Also, a lot of Eastern Religions preach reincarnation.

If you live your life badly enough, you get reincarnated as an animal...I guess that could be considered hell...

Actually, even human life is considered hell. Just being in the world is hell because the world is full of suffering.
baggins
Posts: 855
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7/17/2012 7:03:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 10:45:57 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/16/2012 8:01:41 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:54:59 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:44:27 PM, acvavra wrote:
If you sinned against me, you could pay for it here in prison, or until I died. But what are you going to do when you sin against an ETERNAL BEING? Why you would have to pay for it, FOREVER! Us Christians, saw the truth and eternal torments of Hell, and took the escape hatch, Jesus Christ! We dont want to see you non- Christians go to Hell, so we are warning you now. Just hope you know we Christians care!

If he was merciful, id expect to be released.

If the eternal being was just and good and merciful, he would see that i did not murder, i did not rape, i did not steal. Do i deserve the same sentence as Hitler? As a rapist serial killer? Of course not. An eternal being has a brain, he would know this.

If I were merciful and unjust I would agree with you. If it were not for the restraining force of God I would make Hitler look like a chior boy. The only reason you do not rape/murder/steal etc. is because God is restraining our wicked hearts. Atleast according to scripture. God gives some over to the desires of their hearts (sin) and has mercy on others by regenerating them and granting them faith. In that manner He is just and merciful. I suppose the only logical question really is what determines the punishment of the sin? The Bible says that sin = punishment via hell. I do not know of a way to understand the court of God aside that it is God who established it. Hell being hell because God is holy makes sense to me though.

If God is restraining my wicked heart, where does free will play into this. How do i have free will, if God is the one who is preventing me from doing evil?

Those who seek to move towards truth are guided by God. Those who ignore the divine message; God seals their heart. God is all powerful. God is free to guide whom he wants to and ignore those he does not want and no one can do anything about it. However, God is also just. God guides those who strive towards him.

The relation between grace and freewill should be clear.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/17/2012 7:27:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:58:01 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:52:28 PM, drafterman wrote:
No crime deserves eternal punishment.

No it doesn't. But you haven't contended with my view of hell up there.

Generally speaking I reject the validity of punishment based solely on whether or not I adhere to a trivial belief in some legendary character's divinity.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/17/2012 8:38:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 6:13:08 AM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 7/16/2012 10:45:57 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/16/2012 8:01:41 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:54:59 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:44:27 PM, acvavra wrote:
If you sinned against me, you could pay for it here in prison, or until I died. But what are you going to do when you sin against an ETERNAL BEING? Why you would have to pay for it, FOREVER! Us Christians, saw the truth and eternal torments of Hell, and took the escape hatch, Jesus Christ! We dont want to see you non- Christians go to Hell, so we are warning you now. Just hope you know we Christians care!

If he was merciful, id expect to be released.

If the eternal being was just and good and merciful, he would see that i did not murder, i did not rape, i did not steal. Do i deserve the same sentence as Hitler? As a rapist serial killer? Of course not. An eternal being has a brain, he would know this.

If I were merciful and unjust I would agree with you. If it were not for the restraining force of God I would make Hitler look like a chior boy. The only reason you do not rape/murder/steal etc. is because God is restraining our wicked hearts. Atleast according to scripture. God gives some over to the desires of their hearts (sin) and has mercy on others by regenerating them and granting them faith. In that manner He is just and merciful. I suppose the only logical question really is what determines the punishment of the sin? The Bible says that sin = punishment via hell. I do not know of a way to understand the court of God aside that it is God who established it. Hell being hell because God is holy makes sense to me though.

If God is restraining my wicked heart, where does free will play into this. How do i have free will, if God is the one who is preventing me from doing evil?

^Agreed

On my cell. Free will really needs to be defined. The compatibleistic view fits perfectly. I have never understood a libertarian notion of free will. It seems only to place man above God in his decisions. Free will comes into play when u do do what u want. Simply because God restrains us to an extent is no less an issue for Calvinists as it is for Arminians in regards to the freedom of the will as we both believe that God restrains just one to more a degree then the other. When we do good we owe it to God for restraining our sinful inclinations. When we do evil we can only blame ourselves as God has given us over to the desires of our hearts.
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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7/17/2012 9:35:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/17/2012 7:27:38 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:58:01 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:52:28 PM, drafterman wrote:
No crime deserves eternal punishment.

No it doesn't. But you haven't contended with my view of hell up there.

Generally speaking I reject the validity of punishment based solely on whether or not I adhere to a trivial belief in some legendary character's divinity.

The view of the hell-heaven dichotomy has nothing to do with beliefs or legendary characters... or even positive punishment for that matter.