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Do angels and demons have freewill?

twocupcakes
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7/20/2012 10:31:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Some people believe in angels and demons. I am wondering if these beings have freewill. For example, could a demon start doing really nice things, or an angel start doing really evil things?

Also, if they do have freewill, I kinda fell bad for the demons. People will always hate them, and if they do nice things, people will just give credit to the angels or God. If they don't have freewill, then you can't really blame them for being evil.
twocupcakes
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7/21/2012 1:44:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/20/2012 10:48:04 AM, D8er4life wrote:
They may have freewill but the real question I see here is are angels/demons good/evil by nature?

Yeah, they could be born generally good or generally bad. Or the environment they were raised in could make them good or bad. However, since they are around for eternity, they have plenty of time to overcome their initial urges.
joneszj
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7/21/2012 3:39:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/20/2012 10:31:57 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
Some people believe in angels and demons. I am wondering if these beings have freewill. For example, could a demon start doing really nice things, or an angel start doing really evil things?

Also, if they do have freewill, I kinda fell bad for the demons. People will always hate them, and if they do nice things, people will just give credit to the angels or God. If they don't have freewill, then you can't really blame them for being evil.

The Bible says 1/3 of all the angels of heaven fell with Lucifer. I cannot imagine they were created bad and it does not speak of angels being created or born after they were first created. If they did not have some form of freedom of will to rebel then it would be questionable as to 1) why they rebelled and 2) why God would judge them for their rebellion. I generally have heard that they do not have free will but if they didn't why did they fall? I would say angels do but demons do not. What I mean is that then angle (like adam) had a measure of free will to carry out what they desired to do. But once they fell the desires they had became corrupt and thus they can only freely choose to do evil as that is all their hearts desire (as it is with man). toodles
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/21/2012 5:34:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/21/2012 3:39:27 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/20/2012 10:31:57 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
Some people believe in angels and demons. I am wondering if these beings have freewill. For example, could a demon start doing really nice things, or an angel start doing really evil things?

Also, if they do have freewill, I kinda fell bad for the demons. People will always hate them, and if they do nice things, people will just give credit to the angels or God. If they don't have freewill, then you can't really blame them for being evil.

The Bible says 1/3 of all the angels of heaven fell with Lucifer. I cannot imagine they were created bad and it does not speak of angels being created or born after they were first created. If they did not have some form of freedom of will to rebel then it would be questionable as to 1) why they rebelled and 2) why God would judge them for their rebellion. I generally have heard that they do not have free will but if they didn't why did they fall? I would say angels do but demons do not. What I mean is that then angle (like adam) had a measure of free will to carry out what they desired to do. But once they fell the desires they had became corrupt and thus they can only freely choose to do evil as that is all their hearts desire (as it is with man). toodles

/end thread

*headshot*
s-anthony
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7/21/2012 10:11:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/21/2012 3:39:27 PM, joneszj wrote:
The Bible says 1/3 of all the angels of heaven fell with Lucifer. I cannot imagine they were created bad and it does not speak of angels being created or born after they were first created. If they did not have some form of freedom of will to rebel then it would be questionable as to 1) why they rebelled and 2) why God would judge them for their rebellion. I generally have heard that they do not have free will but if they didn't why did they fall?

If they were created without an evil nature, from where did the will to do evil come?

I would say angels do but demons do not. What I mean is that then angle (like adam) had a measure of free will to carry out what they desired to do. But once they fell the desires they had became corrupt and thus they can only freely choose to do evil as that is all their hearts desire (as it is with man). toodles

So, what your saying is humans, not unlike demons, have a will only for that which is evil. So, in other words, there is no redemption; and, Christ was crucified in vain. Is this correct?
joneszj
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7/21/2012 10:29:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/21/2012 10:11:02 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 7/21/2012 3:39:27 PM, joneszj wrote:
The Bible says 1/3 of all the angels of heaven fell with Lucifer. I cannot imagine they were created bad and it does not speak of angels being created or born after they were first created. If they did not have some form of freedom of will to rebel then it would be questionable as to 1) why they rebelled and 2) why God would judge them for their rebellion. I generally have heard that they do not have free will but if they didn't why did they fall?

If they were created without an evil nature, from where did the will to do evil come?

Rhetorically the point I am making

I would say angels do but demons do not. What I mean is that then angle (like adam) had a measure of free will to carry out what they desired to do. But once they fell the desires they had became corrupt and thus they can only freely choose to do evil as that is all their hearts desire (as it is with man). toodles

So, what your saying is humans, not unlike demons, have a will only for that which is evil. So, in other words, there is no redemption; and, Christ was crucified in vain. Is this correct?

Yes to the former half of your comment. Redemption is accomplished by God redeeming his children. No vain is Christs death.
joneszj
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7/21/2012 10:37:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/21/2012 5:34:45 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 7/21/2012 3:39:27 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 7/20/2012 10:31:57 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
Some people believe in angels and demons. I am wondering if these beings have freewill. For example, could a demon start doing really nice things, or an angel start doing really evil things?

Also, if they do have freewill, I kinda fell bad for the demons. People will always hate them, and if they do nice things, people will just give credit to the angels or God. If they don't have freewill, then you can't really blame them for being evil.

The Bible says 1/3 of all the angels of heaven fell with Lucifer. I cannot imagine they were created bad and it does not speak of angels being created or born after they were first created. If they did not have some form of freedom of will to rebel then it would be questionable as to 1) why they rebelled and 2) why God would judge them for their rebellion. I generally have heard that they do not have free will but if they didn't why did they fall? I would say angels do but demons do not. What I mean is that then angle (like adam) had a measure of free will to carry out what they desired to do. But once they fell the desires they had became corrupt and thus they can only freely choose to do evil as that is all their hearts desire (as it is with man). toodles

/end thread

*headshot*

Helpful?
Dogknox
Posts: 5,090
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7/21/2012 10:48:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/20/2012 10:31:57 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
Some people believe in angels and demons. I am wondering if these beings have freewill. For example, could a demon start doing really nice things, or an angel start doing really evil things?

Also, if they do have freewill, I kinda fell bad for the demons. People will always hate them, and if they do nice things, people will just give credit to the angels or God. If they don't have freewill, then you can't really blame them for being evil.

THINK Angels and demons have already been judged!!!
The Demon can't love they are pure HATE!!! GOD IS LOVE they are void of God!
1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

twocupcakes God would NOT be in the lake of fire, no demon has God inside! No demon would lift a finger to help you, they HATE YOU!!
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that —and shudder.

Demons have FAITH ALONE!
They have ZERO HOPE!
They have ZERO LOVE!
No mother or father

Angels have "LOVE ALONE" they can't hate.. they are pure love!
They have no hope or Faith.. Hope and Faith in not needed in heaven!
No mother or father!!

twocupcakes Christians have Faith, Hope and Love..They have Father God, Mother Church!
Father- Groom
Mother- Bride
Christians have two, two, two parents, not just one!

Christians are the Children of God, children of the Bride!
The Judgement for the Christian is yet to be!

Dogknox
s-anthony
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7/21/2012 11:01:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/21/2012 10:29:03 PM, joneszj wrote:
Yes to the former half of your comment. Redemption is accomplished by God redeeming his children. No vain is Christs death.

Yet, the Bible says, "...whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Why would someone who has merely a will to do evil call on the name of the Lord?

Furthermore, the Bible, also, says, to approach God with a broken and a contrite heart. If the human being is completely depraved, from where does this contrition come?
joneszj
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7/21/2012 11:21:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/21/2012 11:01:11 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 7/21/2012 10:29:03 PM, joneszj wrote:
Yes to the former half of your comment. Redemption is accomplished by God redeeming his children. No vain is Christs death.

Yet, the Bible says, "...whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Why would someone who has merely a will to do evil call on the name of the Lord?

Furthermore, the Bible, also, says, to approach God with a broken and a contrite heart. If the human being is completely depraved, from where does this contrition come?

because the Bible also says:
-Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
-Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
-1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
-Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
-Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
-John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
-Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

They all basically say that man is dead and unable to accept the call from God to be saved.

Those who do come to the Lord with contrition are the ones who have been regenerated/born again:
Eph 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Im a lil tired so I flip the question: where does the Bible specifically say we have the freedom of will to either 1) do any good of ourselves or 2) believe the gospel message? The only verses I see describe man as broken and unable to do such things. It always seems to be a philosophical inference based on the commands of God that because He demands it that we have a nature that is willing to follow it. Either you reject a historic doctrine that arminians and calvinists believe in (total depravity) and fall into semi-pelagianism or you find scriptural support for prevenient grace. Something I have been looking for for some time now.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/21/2012 11:22:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I feel like trolling today :P

There are 2 problems wrong with the OP:

1. Angels and demons likely don't exist
2. Freewill is a logical absurdity
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
s-anthony
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7/21/2012 11:41:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/21/2012 11:21:00 PM, joneszj wrote:
because the Bible also says:
-Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
-Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
-1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
-Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
-Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
-John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
-Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

They all basically say that man is dead and unable to accept the call from God to be saved.

Those who do come to the Lord with contrition are the ones who have been regenerated/born again:
Eph 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Im a lil tired so I flip the question: where does the Bible specifically say we have the freedom of will to either 1) do any good of ourselves or 2) believe the gospel message? The only verses I see describe man as broken and unable to do such things. It always seems to be a philosophical inference based on the commands of God that because He demands it that we have a nature that is willing to follow it. Either you reject a historic doctrine that arminians and calvinists believe in (total depravity) and fall into semi-pelagianism or you find scriptural support for prevenient grace. Something I have been looking for for some time now.

So, seeing we have only a will for total depravity and goodness is forced on us, against our will, why did God give us a will to do evil but not a will to do good? Was it God's will to damn creation? If so, isn't that rather sick?
joneszj
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7/21/2012 11:50:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/21/2012 11:41:14 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 7/21/2012 11:21:00 PM, joneszj wrote:
because the Bible also says:
-Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
-Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
-1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
-Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
-Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
-John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
-Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

They all basically say that man is dead and unable to accept the call from God to be saved.

Those who do come to the Lord with contrition are the ones who have been regenerated/born again:
Eph 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Im a lil tired so I flip the question: where does the Bible specifically say we have the freedom of will to either 1) do any good of ourselves or 2) believe the gospel message? The only verses I see describe man as broken and unable to do such things. It always seems to be a philosophical inference based on the commands of God that because He demands it that we have a nature that is willing to follow it. Either you reject a historic doctrine that arminians and calvinists believe in (total depravity) and fall into semi-pelagianism or you find scriptural support for prevenient grace. Something I have been looking for for some time now.

So, seeing we have only a will for total depravity and goodness is forced on us, against our will, why did God give us a will to do evil but not a will to do good? Was it God's will to damn creation? If so, isn't that rather sick?

God did not 'give us a will to do evil'. Such a notion is hyper-Calvinism. God created Adam good. Adam had a will that was not 'bound to sin' until he originally sinned. At which, all of his offspring inherited the same nature being 'slaves to sin'.

Speaking about Gods will and sovereign plan. Can anything prevent God from doing? The Bible says nope (Dan 4:35). Does everything happen according to His will? The Bible says yes (Eph 1:11). So, was it in Gods sovereign plan that Adam would fall? Yes. Did He force it to happen? No. Why would He allow/ordain it to happen? So that His glory would be proclaimed and His mercy be known (Rom 9).
s-anthony
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7/22/2012 12:32:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/21/2012 11:50:27 PM, joneszj wrote:
God did not 'give us a will to do evil'. Such a notion is hyper-Calvinism. God created Adam good. Adam had a will that was not 'bound to sin' until he originally sinned. At which, all of his offspring inherited the same nature being 'slaves to sin'.

So, we inherited this evil nature, not something of our own doing; but, it was handed down to us. Again, I think it is rather sick, for God to punish us in eternal torment for something we had no control over.

Secondly, from where did Adam acquire this evil? Furthermore, if Adam had a will only for that which is good, why did he choose evil?

Speaking about Gods will and sovereign plan. Can anything prevent God from doing? The Bible says nope (Dan 4:35). Does everything happen according to His will? The Bible says yes (Eph 1:11). So, was it in Gods sovereign plan that Adam would fall? Yes. Did He force it to happen? No. Why would He allow/ordain it to happen? So that His glory would be proclaimed and His mercy be known (Rom 9).

So, God is the great architect of all the Universe. It was God's design for Adam to fall. Yet, God is not to blame for it. Is this doublespeak or what? To further confound the matter, God condemns the world to eternal damnation so, that, mercy may be shown; yet, mercy for a select few. All others are tormented throughout eternity so that a select few may experience the tender mercies of God. Again, I only have one thing to say about that, "Sick!"
joneszj
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7/22/2012 12:57:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:32:07 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 7/21/2012 11:50:27 PM, joneszj wrote:
God did not 'give us a will to do evil'. Such a notion is hyper-Calvinism. God created Adam good. Adam had a will that was not 'bound to sin' until he originally sinned. At which, all of his offspring inherited the same nature being 'slaves to sin'.

So, we inherited this evil nature, not something of our own doing; but, it was handed down to us. Again, I think it is rather sick, for God to punish us in eternal torment for something we had no control over.

I suppose your a Pelagianist then?

Secondly, from where did Adam acquire this evil? Furthermore, if Adam had a will only for that which is good, why did he choose evil?

I did not say 'only good' just 'good'. Difference being that he had the freedom to rebel. Adam was good but fallible- like everything else but God. When Adam was tempted he did not resist. To skip ahead logically a little bit we would need to ask how/why did Lucifer fall? If he had not fallen Adam would not have been tempted. The Bible speaks little on that. Why did God create Lucifer knowing he would fall and decieve Eve of which Adam did not resist disobeying God? Why create beings that are fallable at all? Basically the PoE. Again, the best answer I can come up with that at least remains consistent with scripture is God created environments in which it were possible even ordained for 1) a fall and 2) the giving of His son as a propitiation and 3) redemption of the lost. He did this to display His mercy, justness, hatred for sin, glory etc. all of which are magnified because of the fall, crucifixion, and redemption. Redemptive history displays the character of God. Like it or not, have something biblically more plausible?

So, did God cause Lucifer to fall and the events that ensued? No! Such notions are hyper-Calvinist. Instead, God ordained events to occur that were carried out by the wills of the creatures He created. By ordained I simply mean 'made reality'. The choices are free choices of the creatures. So, one last time, why create creatures that had the possibility of fallability? I gave my understanding above, care to share yours? There are only four that I am aware of. You can read them here: http://www.reformed.org...

Speaking about Gods will and sovereign plan. Can anything prevent God from doing? The Bible says nope (Dan 4:35). Does everything happen according to His will? The Bible says yes (Eph 1:11). So, was it in Gods sovereign plan that Adam would fall? Yes. Did He force it to happen? No. Why would He allow/ordain it to happen? So that His glory would be proclaimed and His mercy be known (Rom 9).

So, God is the great architect of all the Universe. It was God's design for Adam to fall. Yet, God is not to blame for it. Is this doublespeak or what? To further confound the matter, God condemns the world to eternal damnation so, that, mercy may be shown; yet, mercy for a select few. All others are tormented throughout eternity so that a select few may experience the tender mercies of God. Again, I only have one thing to say about that, "Sick!"

Is God not the architech of the universe? Do not all things happen according to His will (Eph 1:11)? Do you believe any of the Bible or are you just sickened by it? Do you have some other ideaology that is consistent with scripture? Will you present it instead of simply saying thats sick? Is there something wrong with God condemning sinners? Why not say that it is wrong to show mercy at all, even to a few?

Then evil occurs for no reason? It is outside of Gods soveriegnty? Effectually that would mean evil has power over God. You simply saying its sick does nothing to the validity of it. cheers
s-anthony
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7/22/2012 10:51:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 12:57:32 AM, joneszj wrote:
I did not say 'only good' just 'good'. Difference being that he had the freedom to rebel. Adam was good but fallible- like everything else but God. When Adam was tempted he did not resist. To skip ahead logically a little bit we would need to ask how/why did Lucifer fall? If he had not fallen Adam would not have been tempted. The Bible speaks little on that. Why did God create Lucifer knowing he would fall and decieve Eve of which Adam did not resist disobeying God? Why create beings that are fallable at all? Basically the PoE. Again, the best answer I can come up with that at least remains consistent with scripture is God created environments in which it were possible even ordained for 1) a fall and 2) the giving of His son as a propitiation and 3) redemption of the lost. He did this to display His mercy, justness, hatred for sin, glory etc. all of which are magnified because of the fall, crucifixion, and redemption. Redemptive history displays the character of God. Like it or not, have something biblically more plausible?

So, let me get this right. Are you saying Adam was good yet had the potential for evil? Like saying one has the genes for Alzheimer's, but the gene remains dormant. Who planted this seed in Adam? Was it God or the Devil? If the Devil, then, who planted the seed in Lucifer?

So, did God cause Lucifer to fall and the events that ensued? No! Such notions are hyper-Calvinist. Instead, God ordained events to occur that were carried out by the wills of the creatures He created. By ordained I simply mean 'made reality'. The choices are free choices of the creatures. So, one last time, why create creatures that had the possibility of fallability? I gave my understanding above, care to share yours? There are only four that I am aware of. You can read them here: http://www.reformed.org...

So, I make a cake knowing the cake will fall, yet do nothing to prevent it from falling. Yet, I, the baker, am not responsible for the failure of the cake. It's the cake's fault. What kind on nonsense is this? Shall I display the cake in my bakery's window, so others may see what a failure it truly is, or shall I return it to the oven and burn it to cinders? That will definitely teach it a lesson.

joneszj
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7/22/2012 11:51:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 10:51:56 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 7/22/2012 12:57:32 AM, joneszj wrote:
I did not say 'only good' just 'good'. Difference being that he had the freedom to rebel. Adam was good but fallible- like everything else but God. When Adam was tempted he did not resist. To skip ahead logically a little bit we would need to ask how/why did Lucifer fall? If he had not fallen Adam would not have been tempted. The Bible speaks little on that. Why did God create Lucifer knowing he would fall and decieve Eve of which Adam did not resist disobeying God? Why create beings that are fallable at all? Basically the PoE. Again, the best answer I can come up with that at least remains consistent with scripture is God created environments in which it were possible even ordained for 1) a fall and 2) the giving of His son as a propitiation and 3) redemption of the lost. He did this to display His mercy, justness, hatred for sin, glory etc. all of which are magnified because of the fall, crucifixion, and redemption. Redemptive history displays the character of God. Like it or not, have something biblically more plausible?

So, let me get this right. Are you saying Adam was good yet had the potential for evil? Like saying one has the genes for Alzheimer's, but the gene remains dormant. Who planted this seed in Adam? Was it God or the Devil? If the Devil, then, who planted the seed in Lucifer?

Someone with the potential to do evil does not necessitate that they will do that evil. But God knew they would, and created them regardless including the circumstances that encubated the fall. There is only really three potential explinations for this that I am aware of: 1) God didn't know what would happen, 2) God had a morally justified reason for it all, 3) God is evil. Pick your choice. The only one that is consistent with scripture is option 2. Did you even open the link I gave?!?

So, did God cause Lucifer to fall and the events that ensued? No! Such notions are hyper-Calvinist. Instead, God ordained events to occur that were carried out by the wills of the creatures He created. By ordained I simply mean 'made reality'. The choices are free choices of the creatures. So, one last time, why create creatures that had the possibility of fallability? I gave my understanding above, care to share yours? There are only four that I am aware of. You can read them here: http://www.reformed.org...

So, I make a cake knowing the cake will fall, yet do nothing to prevent it from falling. Yet, I, the baker, am not responsible for the failure of the cake. It's the cake's fault. What kind on nonsense is this? Shall I display the cake in my bakery's window, so others may see what a failure it truly is, or shall I return it to the oven and burn it to cinders? That will definitely teach it a lesson.

Cakes have no will. They submit to all forces worked against them. Humanity is not the same as a cake. But your illustration would still stand if you changed cake to something that has a will, say a human. I think God allowed the fall so that He could die for it and redeem it. He throws the rebelling one in the oven and the redeemed one on the stand(?) all of which He knew before hand which would go where. So it seems, 'the baker' had planned for the fall in order that that the redeemed would be on the stand (know the riches of His mercy, could be shown mercy, etc.). Or, the baker out of a lack of knowledge and control accidently lost the majority and only was able to save some. The latter is not biblically consistent.

Are you going to address any of my questions or not? I am loosing patience. Your making this a one-way conversation. Particularly one that is 1) not an easy topic for anyone and 2) something the Bible does not speak on much.
s-anthony
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7/22/2012 10:52:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
First of all, I don't like classifications; the only classification I will give myself is the one provided for in my my profile; namely, that, I'm a pantheist.

Secondly, I don't see humans or any other creatures as fallen. Evil to me is a relative term, that, I believe is used far too often.

At 7/22/2012 11:51:35 AM, joneszj wrote:
Cakes have no will. They submit to all forces worked against them. Humanity is not the same as a cake. But your illustration would still stand if you changed cake to something that has a will, say a human. I think God allowed the fall so that He could die for it and redeem it. He throws the rebelling one in the oven and the redeemed one on the stand(?) all of which He knew before hand which would go where. So it seems, 'the baker' had planned for the fall in order that that the redeemed would be on the stand (know the riches of His mercy, could be shown mercy, etc.). Or, the baker out of a lack of knowledge and control accidently lost the majority and only was able to save some. The latter is not biblically consistent.

God created Adam good yet gave the potential for evil. Whatever Adam had came from God, whether his goodness or his potential for evil. In other words, the seed was planted by God. Without God evil would not exist; so, God is solely responsible for it. You say it was Adam's choice to do evil; yet, you can only choose between that which is available. God made the will to do evil available to Adam. So, God provided Adam with the ability to do evil; God provided Adam with a will, whether it's good or bad. Adam was a personal creation of God, and all he had came from God. Nothing existed other than that which God created. So, God is the source of all things, whether good or bad.
joneszj
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7/23/2012 1:47:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/22/2012 10:52:42 PM, s-anthony wrote:
First of all, I don't like classifications; the only classification I will give myself is the one provided for in my my profile; namely, that, I'm a pantheist.

What does it matter if I classify you are not? If you if fit the description and cannot be differentiated from it then you fit under that classification. Like it or not.

Secondly, I don't see humans or any other creatures as fallen. Evil to me is a relative term, that, I believe is used far too often.

How relative? If I steal money from your bank account is that not evil? Murder children? Raped women? Could you place all the thoughts that go through your mind in one day on the 10 o'clock news and still feel like your 'not evil' or relatively 'not evil'. If so, good for you. I can't though.

At 7/22/2012 11:51:35 AM, joneszj wrote:
Cakes have no will. They submit to all forces worked against them. Humanity is not the same as a cake. But your illustration would still stand if you changed cake to something that has a will, say a human. I think God allowed the fall so that He could die for it and redeem it. He throws the rebelling one in the oven and the redeemed one on the stand(?) all of which He knew before hand which would go where. So it seems, 'the baker' had planned for the fall in order that that the redeemed would be on the stand (know the riches of His mercy, could be shown mercy, etc.). Or, the baker out of a lack of knowledge and control accidently lost the majority and only was able to save some. The latter is not biblically consistent.

God created Adam good yet gave the potential for evil. Whatever Adam had came from God, whether his goodness or his potential for evil. In other words, the seed was planted by God. Without God evil would not exist; so, God is solely responsible for it. You say it was Adam's choice to do evil; yet, you can only choose between that which is available. God made the will to do evil available to Adam. So, God provided Adam with the ability to do evil; God provided Adam with a will, whether it's good or bad. Adam was a personal creation of God, and all he had came from God. Nothing existed other than that which God created. So, God is the source of all things, whether good or bad.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only exception would be "God is solely responsible for it.". Responsibility implies moral responsibility. I would say "God is the primary causation of it, creatures being the secondary causation" absolving God as the agent responsible for acting evil but ultimately being its 'primary cause'. Secondary causation is where the moral responsibility is determined.

"In general, people agree that the one with uncaused action is held responsible for an action. Not the ball that was caused to roll, but the person who was not caused to push is held responsible for the rolling of the ball. However, according to this worldview, the same does not apply to humans. Although a man is considered unable to choose against his desires, which are caused by his sin nature or God's intervention, the moral responsibility of sin lies with him. He chose to do it, therefore he is held responsible. Not what caused him to choose, but he that chooses is held responsible.

This understanding of moral responsibility absolves God of authorship of sin; man, as caused by fall, is naturally "inclined to all evil" (Heidelberg Catechism, Q.7). Whether God decrees the fall of man or not, God is not thought to force this evil inclination upon man; but rather, He "gave [man] over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper" (Rom. 1:28; NASB). God "gave over" men who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness . . . For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God" (Rom. 1:18, 21). The evil nature of man was not created or caused by God, but is a corruption of God's good creation (cf. Gen. 1:31). The Biblical doctrine of reprobation teaches that the sinful man is condemned apart from God's saving grace. Scripture uses the phrase "gave over" to describe God's allowance of reprobation (rf. Rom. 1:24, 26; NASB). God allows, but is not the primary cause of, sin. The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches that God's will is necessarily efficacious, but is effected by means of "secondary causes" subject to His sovereign control.^[1]^"
http://www.theopedia.com...

This article speaks heavily on Compatibilism and the first sin/evil: http://prosblogion.ektopos.com...

Edwardian compatibalism does a sufficient job at alleviating moral responsibility from a sovereign God it the creatures sin. Aquinas compatibalism begins to unfold the 'how' the first sin originated with primary and secondary causation. Ultimately God is the primary cause, but the moral responsibility hinges on the secondary cause.

I particularly like what Nathanael Taylor says. He addresses the why and the culpability of God ordaining everything including the first sin while maintaining that there was a morally justifiable reason, Gods glory. I also like how he gets to the differentiation of thought between the Reformers and Libritarian Free Will thinkers.

I lost my place (at work and busy)
s-anthony
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7/24/2012 12:02:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 1:47:11 PM, joneszj wrote:
I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only exception would be "God is solely responsible for it.". Responsibility implies moral responsibility. I would say "God is the primary causation of it, creatures being the secondary causation" absolving God as the agent responsible for acting evil but ultimately being its 'primary cause'. Secondary causation is where the moral responsibility is determined.

God is the cause of it; yet, God's not responsible for it. Sounds like a whole lot of double talk to me.

Did you not get it, when I said I believe Christianity teaches God made all things and nothing exists apart from God? In fact, I think the writer of Colossians said it best:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: - Colossians 1:16

God made Adam and all, that, Adam would become. Let me illustrate: a seed is not a tree; but, without that seed there would be no tree. Why? Because, all that tree will become is wrapped up in that tiny seed. Let's go further with the illustration: God made the seed; God made the soil in which the seed would be planted; God made the sun and the rain to nourish the seed. The seed gives birth but only to that which is already in it. God is not the cause of merely the seed, but God is, also, the reason the seed gives birth, grows to become a tree, and eventually dies. God made the seed and its environment. Without God, not only would the seed not exist, it would and could not continue to exist. The passage I quoted from Colossians goes on to say, "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." So, according to this passage, God is the first, second, and last cause of all things.

"In general, people agree that the one with uncaused action is held responsible for an action. Not the ball that was caused to roll, but the person who was not caused to push is held responsible for the rolling of the ball. However, according to this worldview, the same does not apply to humans. Although a man is considered unable to choose against his desires, which are caused by his sin nature or God's intervention, the moral responsibility of sin lies with him. He chose to do it, therefore he is held responsible. Not what caused him to choose, but he that chooses is held responsible.

So, in the first instance, it is said the person is the cause of the ball rolling; because, the person, who isn't forced to roll the ball, forces the ball to roll. Yet, for some unexplained reason, this logic does not apply to humans. God gives human beings desires in which they are unable to choose against; yet, they are held responsible for giving into these desires. If God did not want humans to act on these desires, why did God give them to humans, in the first place? Again, "Not what caused him to choose, but he that chooses is held responsible." If God causes something to happen, such as choice, God is the one who's choosing. In other words, if I cause a cake to bake, then, I am baking a cake.

This understanding of moral responsibility absolves God of authorship of sin; man, as caused by fall, is naturally "inclined to all evil" (Heidelberg Catechism, Q.7). Whether God decrees the fall of man or not, God is not thought to force this evil inclination upon man; but rather, He "gave [man] over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper" (Rom. 1:28; NASB). God "gave over" men who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness . . . For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God" (Rom. 1:18, 21). The evil nature of man was not created or caused by God, but is a corruption of God's good creation (cf. Gen. 1:31). The Biblical doctrine of reprobation teaches that the sinful man is condemned apart from God's saving grace. Scripture uses the phrase "gave over" to describe God's allowance of reprobation (rf. Rom. 1:24, 26; NASB). God allows, but is not the primary cause of, sin.

Humans caused by The Fall are by nature evil. Yet, whether God decrees The Fall or not, God does not force humans to be evil. It is of my understanding, if God decrees something it has no choice but to happen. So, if God decrees The Fall, then, God causes The Fall; and, if God causes The Fall, then, God causes the inclination of human beings to be evil. You can't have it both ways. You can't say God caused something and, then, say God didn't; either God did or God didn't.

The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches that God's will is necessarily efficacious, but is effected by means of "secondary causes" subject to His sovereign control.^[1]^"
http://www.theopedia.com...

If I have a pit bull that is subject to my control and I let that pit bull maw the face of my neighbor's daughter, who's held responsible for what that pit bull did?
DATCMOTO
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7/24/2012 1:19:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/20/2012 10:31:57 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
Some people believe in angels and demons. I am wondering if these beings have freewill. For example, could a demon start doing really nice things, or an angel start doing really evil things?

Also, if they do have freewill, I kinda fell bad for the demons. People will always hate them, and if they do nice things, people will just give credit to the angels or God. If they don't have freewill, then you can't really blame them for being evil.

From the limited information we have in the scriptures (what business is it of ours?) it seems that when Lucifer rebelled, the angels had a choice to either side with him or God.. unlike us, there is no chance of redemption for those that followed satan, so they are now 'locked in' to their eternal destiny..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Paradox_7
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7/24/2012 3:10:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 12:02:45 AM, s-anthony wrote:
Humans caused by The Fall are by nature evil. Yet, whether God decrees The Fall or not, God does not force humans to be evil. It is of my understanding, if God decrees something it has no choice but to happen. So, if God decrees The Fall, then, God causes The Fall; and, if God causes The Fall, then, God causes the inclination of human beings to be evil. You can't have it both ways. You can't say God caused something and, then, say God didn't; either God did or God didn't.

Is the Sun responsible for shadows?

God did create Evil, but in the same way that the Sun causes shadows

Isaiah 45:7

7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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7/24/2012 3:14:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 1:19:14 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/20/2012 10:31:57 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
Some people believe in angels and demons. I am wondering if these beings have freewill. For example, could a demon start doing really nice things, or an angel start doing really evil things?

Also, if they do have freewill, I kinda fell bad for the demons. People will always hate them, and if they do nice things, people will just give credit to the angels or God. If they don't have freewill, then you can't really blame them for being evil.

From the limited information we have in the scriptures (what business is it of ours?) it seems that when Lucifer rebelled, the angels had a choice to either side with him or God.. unlike us, there is no chance of redemption for those that followed satan, so they are now 'locked in' to their eternal destiny..


Co-sign.

Matthew 8:28-29

28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

These guys know what waits for them... no hope of salvation; just knowledge of there predestined fate.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/24/2012 8:36:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/20/2012 10:31:57 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
Some people believe in angels and demons. I am wondering if these beings have freewill. For example, could a demon start doing really nice things, or an angel start doing really evil things?

Also, if they do have freewill, I kinda fell bad for the demons. People will always hate them, and if they do nice things, people will just give credit to the angels or God. If they don't have freewill, then you can't really blame them for being evil.

IDK what others are/were taught, I was simply taught that the devils were once angels, they defied God, and are now devils. I have no idea why they can't be saved like humans can, or why current angels can't defy God. Doesn't make much sense to me, but this is just what I was taught, I'm sure others have different explanations.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
twocupcakes
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7/24/2012 9:10:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
IDK what others are/were taught, I was simply taught that the devils were once angels, they defied God, and are now devils. I have no idea why they can't be saved like humans can, or why current angels can't defy God. Doesn't make much sense to me, but this is just what I was taught, I'm sure others have different explanations.

Yes, this is interesting. I wonder if demons can be saved? If God is forgiving, it seems he would forgive demons too.
EvanK
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7/24/2012 9:39:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 9:10:14 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
IDK what others are/were taught, I was simply taught that the devils were once angels, they defied God, and are now devils. I have no idea why they can't be saved like humans can, or why current angels can't defy God. Doesn't make much sense to me, but this is just what I was taught, I'm sure others have different explanations.

Yes, this is interesting. I wonder if demons can be saved? If God is forgiving, it seems he would forgive demons too.

I would think so. Logically, any creature with free will (which angels supposedly got/have, would be capable of evil, and hence forgiveness from God. What make us so much better than angels, that we deserve and receive forgiveness from our creator? Furthermore, not only did they fall from God, but their punishment is really our punishment, since supposedly, evil comes from the devil. Supposedly, Eve was tempted by the devil disguised as a talking snake. We sin against God, due to the tempting of the devil, and we get punished. So their eternal punishment is to corrupt us humans and turn us away from God and get us punished...joke's on us?

Overall, the idea of angels and demons are interesting, fascinating even, but I don't believe in them.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/25/2012 8:39:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 3:14:30 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 7/24/2012 1:19:14 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/20/2012 10:31:57 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
Some people believe in angels and demons. I am wondering if these beings have freewill. For example, could a demon start doing really nice things, or an angel start doing really evil things?

Also, if they do have freewill, I kinda fell bad for the demons. People will always hate them, and if they do nice things, people will just give credit to the angels or God. If they don't have freewill, then you can't really blame them for being evil.

From the limited information we have in the scriptures (what business is it of ours?) it seems that when Lucifer rebelled, the angels had a choice to either side with him or God.. unlike us, there is no chance of redemption for those that followed satan, so they are now 'locked in' to their eternal destiny..


Co-sign.

Matthew 8:28-29

28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

These guys know what waits for them... no hope of salvation; just knowledge of there predestined fate.

Good:D
The Cross.. the Cross.