Total Posts:23|Showing Posts:1-23
Jump to topic:

Jesus Became Temporarily Unconscious 4 R Sins

jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2012 6:28:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jesus died for the sins of humanity, say verses like Rev 1:5 and 1 John 2:2. This is supposedly the sacrifice he made for mankind.

But Jesus was resurrected a few days later, is presumably alive and well, chilling in heaven with his dad, and waiting until the time is ripe for his "second coming" to Earth.

So when people say that Jesus' sacrifice was so immense that he died for us, they should really say the following: Jesus became temporarily unconscious for our sins, knowing before he became unconscious that it wouldn't be permanent, and became alive again 3 days later. This cannot be called death.

So I contend that if Jesus' supposed death was the amazing sacrifice he made, it's kind of a lame sacrifice since he would have known that he's immortal and godly and that he'd spend the rest of eternity doing whatever God's son does all day.

Was it the suffering he is supposed to have endured on the Cross that was the real sacrifice? Or is there some key detail about the story that I'm just missing?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2012 8:31:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 6:28:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
Jesus died for the sins of humanity, say verses like Rev 1:5 and 1 John 2:2. This is supposedly the sacrifice he made for mankind.

He died for the sins of the elect.

But Jesus was resurrected a few days later, is presumably alive and well, chilling in heaven with his dad, and waiting until the time is ripe for his "second coming" to Earth.

there is no time in heaven, therefor, he very well could be back already; we are the ones who are catching up.

So when people say that Jesus' sacrifice was so immense that he died for us, they should really say the following: Jesus became temporarily unconscious for our sins, knowing before he became unconscious that it wouldn't be permanent, and became alive again 3 days later. This cannot be called death.

Yawn. he died, and was resurrected.

So I contend that if Jesus' supposed death was the amazing sacrifice he made, it's kind of a lame sacrifice since he would have known that he's immortal and godly and that he'd spend the rest of eternity doing whatever God's son does all day.

He knew he was going to be resurrected, and knew who he was going to die for-- before anything was created.

Was it the suffering he is supposed to have endured on the Cross that was the real sacrifice? Or is there some key detail about the story that I'm just missing?


And we are the simple ones?

Christ was perfect, holy, and righteous in a human body; His death was meant to be conquered, so that his sheep could be saved. The whole horrifying punishment of the cross, held a symbolic meaning, but did not contribute the saving work of his sacrifice.

The point was, he died, then defeated death, and rose again-- bodily; so that his elect, may also rise again.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2012 8:44:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Paradox -

Here is one of the first definitions of death I found when I googled "define death" -

the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism

Jesus did not experience this, because he was revived. If someones body has ceased to function or if someone went into a coma, and they were later revived, especially if they were only unconscious for a 3 day period, would you say that this person has truly died?

Certainly in the case of Jesus where his "sacrifice" is meant to redeem all of mankind, his sacrifice seems kind of wimpy when you realize that he knew that he would be alive in a few days. I would say such a "death" isn't a sacrifice at all. If you want to say the pain he experienced was a sacrifice, fine, but I don't think Christianity claims this (correct me if I'm wrong).
acvavra
Posts: 318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2012 9:01:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 8:44:36 PM, jat93 wrote:
Paradox -

Here is one of the first definitions of death I found when I googled "define death" -

the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism

Jesus did not experience this, because he was revived. If someones body has ceased to function or if someone went into a coma, and they were later revived, especially if they were only unconscious for a 3 day period, would you say that this person has truly died?

Certainly in the case of Jesus where his "sacrifice" is meant to redeem all of mankind, his sacrifice seems kind of wimpy when you realize that he knew that he would be alive in a few days. I would say such a "death" isn't a sacrifice at all. If you want to say the pain he experienced was a sacrifice, fine, but I don't think Christianity claims this (correct me if I'm wrong).

The point of the Cross was to become sin for us(2 Corinthians). He took all the sins of humanity and paid the price for those sins with his BLOOD. Yes, the pain was excruciating, but he did die. As soon as your body ceases to breathe and your soul and spirit leave, you are considered dead. So yes, Jesus did die. Jesus didn't revive, that's your problem. His whole body was resurrected, not revived.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2012 3:35:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 9:01:02 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/23/2012 8:44:36 PM, jat93 wrote:
Paradox -

Here is one of the first definitions of death I found when I googled "define death" -

the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism

Jesus did not experience this, because he was revived. If someones body has ceased to function or if someone went into a coma, and they were later revived, especially if they were only unconscious for a 3 day period, would you say that this person has truly died?

Certainly in the case of Jesus where his "sacrifice" is meant to redeem all of mankind, his sacrifice seems kind of wimpy when you realize that he knew that he would be alive in a few days. I would say such a "death" isn't a sacrifice at all. If you want to say the pain he experienced was a sacrifice, fine, but I don't think Christianity claims this (correct me if I'm wrong).

The point of the Cross was to become sin for us(2 Corinthians). He took all the sins of humanity and paid the price for those sins with his BLOOD. Yes, the pain was excruciating, but he did die. As soon as your body ceases to breathe and your soul and spirit leave, you are considered dead. So yes, Jesus did die. Jesus didn't revive, that's your problem. His whole body was resurrected, not revived.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ correct. "As the body without the spirit is dead .... " Jesus' spirit left His body: His body was dead, but His spirit was conscious - as is everyone's.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2012 5:32:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
jat93 is right. Death is defined as the permanent stop of all vital bodily functions. This is reason why NDE's are BS as well. If they lived to tell the story, this negates the conclusion that they died in the first place.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2012 7:24:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry, but if you get back whatever it is you gave up, it can't be considered "lost" or a "sacrifice." It's especially nonsensical in terms of his life being a ransom, or payment of some debt on our behalf.

Satan: Alright, I have their souls and if you ever want to seem them again, you'll pay!
Jesus: Please, don't hurt them, I'll do anything. What do you want?
Satan: A million dollars, a 1931 Bugatti Royale Kellner Coupe, a tailored armani suit, your life, and a pizza!
Jesus: All I can give you is my life for theirs.
Satan: Fine. Whatever. Leave it in the trash can on Main and 4th!

[The exchange happens. Satan walks away with Jesus' life in a suitcase]

Satan: Ha ha! I certainly got the better of that exchange!

[3 Days later, Satan opens the suitcase]

Satan: Where did it go?! I've been duped! JESSUUUUUUSSSS!!!!! [Fists shaking in the air.]

The point is, of course, Jesus didn't buy anything or eliminate any debt because whatever he paid he got back.

As far as whatever pain he sufferred, I'm not convinced he felt anything. He was a demigod capable of performing miracles. I'm not willing to grant him any benefit of the doubt that says his perceptions of the world were analogous to ours. I don't know that he felt pain or pleasure, taste or touch, or anything else the same way I do.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2012 8:01:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 8:44:36 PM, jat93 wrote:
Paradox -

Here is one of the first definitions of death I found when I googled "define death" -

the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism

Jesus did not experience this, because he was revived. If someones body has ceased to function or if someone went into a coma, and they were later revived, especially if they were only unconscious for a 3 day period, would you say that this person has truly died?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Clinical death is when the body stops circulating blood. A person can be revived after achieving clinical death. If they are revived, their condition is not changed to "they lost consciousness."


Certainly in the case of Jesus where his "sacrifice" is meant to redeem all of mankind, his sacrifice seems kind of wimpy when you realize that he knew that he would be alive in a few days. I would say such a "death" isn't a sacrifice at all. If you want to say the pain he experienced was a sacrifice, fine, but I don't think Christianity claims this (correct me if I'm wrong).

You are misunderstand the word "sacrifice" in this context. In the old testament, animals were sacrificed for temporary forgiveness. Jesus became the offering so that no more sacrifices would be needed. It wasn't some magic spell where one of the ingredients was him suffering X amount.

One could also argue that the return of Jesus was the spirit. We can see in the first few meetings that he exhibited some non-physical abilities.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2012 9:30:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 6:28:26 PM, jat93 wrote:
Jesus died for the sins of humanity, say verses like Rev 1:5 and 1 John 2:2. This is supposedly the sacrifice he made for mankind.

But Jesus was resurrected a few days later, is presumably alive and well, chilling in heaven with his dad, and waiting until the time is ripe for his "second coming" to Earth.

So when people say that Jesus' sacrifice was so immense that he died for us, they should really say the following: Jesus became temporarily unconscious for our sins, knowing before he became unconscious that it wouldn't be permanent, and became alive again 3 days later. This cannot be called death.

So I contend that if Jesus' supposed death was the amazing sacrifice he made, it's kind of a lame sacrifice since he would have known that he's immortal and godly and that he'd spend the rest of eternity doing whatever God's son does all day.

Was it the suffering he is supposed to have endured on the Cross that was the real sacrifice? Or is there some key detail about the story that I'm just missing?

No, He never 'ceased to be' He went to hell and preached the Gospel there; only the dead, those abandoned by God, go to hell..

But in an infinitely more important way, He 'died' to the sin of those betraying, denying, mocking, torturing and executing Him: He 'suffered' or allowed them to be what they are and FORGAVE them, He clothed them in His love, He overcame the world with His perfect love.. we, by his holy spirit, can do the same..
The Cross.. the Cross.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2012 10:52:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 9:30:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

No, He never 'ceased to be' He went to hell and preached the Gospel there; only the dead, those abandoned by God, go to hell..

He more likely went to sheol/hades, not hell. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2012 1:05:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 10:52:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 9:30:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

No, He never 'ceased to be' He went to hell and preached the Gospel there; only the dead, those abandoned by God, go to hell..

He more likely went to sheol/hades, not hell. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
The Cross.. the Cross.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2012 2:08:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 1:05:42 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 10:52:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 9:30:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

No, He never 'ceased to be' He went to hell and preached the Gospel there; only the dead, those abandoned by God, go to hell..

He more likely went to sheol/hades, not hell. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


What's your point? The greek words seem to mean proclaim rather than preach.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2012 8:29:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 2:08:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 1:05:42 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 10:52:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 9:30:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

No, He never 'ceased to be' He went to hell and preached the Gospel there; only the dead, those abandoned by God, go to hell..

He more likely went to sheol/hades, not hell. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


What's your point? The greek words seem to mean proclaim rather than preach.

"For this is the reason the gospel in was preached"

I'll take the Chicago 66' NIV federations tranlation over yours;D
The Cross.. the Cross.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2012 11:42:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 8:29:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 2:08:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 1:05:42 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 10:52:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 9:30:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

No, He never 'ceased to be' He went to hell and preached the Gospel there; only the dead, those abandoned by God, go to hell..

He more likely went to sheol/hades, not hell. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


What's your point? The greek words seem to mean proclaim rather than preach.

"For this is the reason the gospel in was preached"

I'll take the Chicago 66' NIV federations tranlation over yours;D

Why use a translation? Just look at the greek man. To proclaim and to preach are two different words.
acvavra
Posts: 318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2012 1:09:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 11:42:03 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:29:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 2:08:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 1:05:42 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 10:52:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 9:30:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

No, He never 'ceased to be' He went to hell and preached the Gospel there; only the dead, those abandoned by God, go to hell..

He more likely went to sheol/hades, not hell. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


What's your point? The greek words seem to mean proclaim rather than preach.

"For this is the reason the gospel in was preached"

I'll take the Chicago 66' NIV federations tranlation over yours;D

Why use a translation? Just look at the greek man. To proclaim and to preach are two different words.

Which "Greek" text stubs? There's more than one you know. Plus, there are many English definitions for a Greek word. How do we know your definition is correct?
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2012 1:15:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 1:09:12 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/25/2012 11:42:03 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:29:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 2:08:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 1:05:42 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 10:52:29 AM, stubs wrote:

He more likely went to sheol/hades, not hell. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


What's your point? The greek words seem to mean proclaim rather than preach.

"For this is the reason the gospel in was preached"

I'll take the Chicago 66' NIV federations tranlation over yours;D

Why use a translation? Just look at the greek man. To proclaim and to preach are two different words.

Which "Greek" text stubs? There's more than one you know. Plus, there are many English definitions for a Greek word. How do we know your definition is correct?

The earliest handwritten greek manuscripts we have. You act like they are all very different. We have 6000 of them all within 99.5% consistency. It's not just my definition haha. Just do some research and on the word and I think you will find what you're looking for.
TheJackel
Posts: 508
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2012 2:12:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
there is no time in heaven, therefor, he very well could be back already; we are the ones who are catching up.

Heaven never existed? there is never an existence in heaven? How long was he in heaven if there is no time to be in heaven? Your argument is a self-refutation to start. And it's an appeal to ignorance to end. And he must be very irrelevant today.., just look at what happens to anyone that claims to be Jesus these says.. And man he sure is silent for being here.. So we are supposed to catch up to the invisible and nonspeaking GOD child? Seriously?
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2012 2:24:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 1:15:51 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/25/2012 1:09:12 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 7/25/2012 11:42:03 AM, stubs wrote:
At 7/25/2012 8:29:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 2:08:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/24/2012 1:05:42 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/24/2012 10:52:29 AM, stubs wrote:

He more likely went to sheol/hades, not hell. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


What's your point? The greek words seem to mean proclaim rather than preach.

"For this is the reason the gospel in was preached"

I'll take the Chicago 66' NIV federations tranlation over yours;D

Why use a translation? Just look at the greek man. To proclaim and to preach are two different words.

Which "Greek" text stubs? There's more than one you know. Plus, there are many English definitions for a Greek word. How do we know your definition is correct?

The earliest handwritten greek manuscripts we have. You act like they are all very different. We have 6000 of them all within 99.5% consistency. It's not just my definition haha. Just do some research and on the word and I think you will find what you're looking for.

God needs a better publicist. 99.5% consistency is not a high standard to uphold.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2012 2:31:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: [If] God is all powerfull and does what he pleases, [Then] Jesus Died because because it pleased him.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2012 2:36:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: Here is a better version according Christianity. THe all power and perfect God Created man so he could sin, and then kill his son who is him at the same time, Because it please him to do all this. It could not be otherwise or he would not be all powerfull and perfect.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2012 9:17:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 2:24:20 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
God needs a better publicist. 99.5% consistency is not a high standard to uphold.

Compared to other ancient literature at the time? The next most copies of a major literature work is Homer's Illiad with 650 copies in Greek and it is no where near 99.5% consistency.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2012 10:36:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 5:32:48 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
jat93 is right. Death is defined as the permanent stop of all vital bodily functions. This is reason why NDE's are BS as well. If they lived to tell the stoNDE stands for ry, this negates the conclusion that they died in the first place.

Um, NDE stands for NEAR Death Experience.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/28/2012 1:38:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 9:17:34 AM, stubs wrote:
At 8/27/2012 2:24:20 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
God needs a better publicist. 99.5% consistency is not a high standard to uphold.

Compared to other ancient literature at the time? The next most copies of a major literature work is Homer's Illiad with 650 copies in Greek and it is no where near 99.5% consistency.

Please tell me the part about unicorns in the Bible is true.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.