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Christianity polytheistic?

EvanK
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7/24/2012 10:15:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I am not a religious expert, but I have a hard time trying to wrap my head around the idea that Christianity (those that believe in the trinity, anyway) is considered monotheistic, and yet there are three entities, Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Doesn't make sense, three entities in one entity? Logical fallacy I would think? A person cannot have three spirits/souls can they? Monotheism means, one Supreme Entity. Not three. That's Polytheism (multiple Supreme Entities). What's more, while Jesus (God the Son) was on Earth, God the Father and Holy Ghost were in heaven. Logic suggests that a singular entity can only be in one place at one time, and cannot split itself into more than one entity. Logically, there is no way for the trinity to be considered a singular entity. Or so it appears to me.

Anytime I ask someone this question, they (other Christians, mainly Catholics) just tell me it's one of the Christian mysteries that no one will ever understand, but is necessary to believe to be called a Christian. Blind faith, then? Anyone care to explain?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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7/24/2012 10:41:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Don't you know bro?
The Christian deity is, totally like, like H20. Ice, water, steam... They're all the same thing but in three different forms.
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mattrodstrom
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7/24/2012 10:52:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think that the official catholic line is that they're con-substantial..
That is, God, son, and holy spirit are all of the same substance...

Not excusing calling it Monotheistic though...

For me and you and the earth and etc.. are all of the same type substance..
but we're multiple thing/people..

different entities = different gods... I don't care if they're of the same type stuff.
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AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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7/25/2012 2:32:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 10:15:16 PM, EvanK wrote:
I am not a religious expert, but I have a hard time trying to wrap my head around the idea that Christianity (those that believe in the trinity, anyway) is considered monotheistic, and yet there are three entities, Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Doesn't make sense, three entities in one entity? Logical fallacy I would think? A person cannot have three spirits/souls can they? Monotheism means, one Supreme Entity. Not three. That's Polytheism (multiple Supreme Entities). What's more, while Jesus (God the Son) was on Earth, God the Father and Holy Ghost were in heaven. Logic suggests that a singular entity can only be in one place at one time, and cannot split itself into more than one entity. Logically, there is no way for the trinity to be considered a singular entity. Or so it appears to me.

Anytime I ask someone this question, they (other Christians, mainly Catholics) just tell me it's one of the Christian mysteries that no one will ever understand, but is necessary to believe to be called a Christian. Blind faith, then? Anyone care to explain?

http://www.debate.org...

That might help. It also might not. I don't really think I could explain it any better anyway, though.

At 7/24/2012 10:52:01 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I think that the official catholic line is that they're con-substantial..
That is, God, son, and holy spirit are all of the same substance...

Not excusing calling it Monotheistic though...

For me and you and the earth and etc.. are all of the same type substance..
but we're multiple thing/people..

different entities = different gods... I don't care if they're of the same type stuff.

Being consubstantial means that they are all equal, not that being of the same substance makes them one God. This is specific rejection of the theories that the Son is less than the Father. If they are all of the same substance, than they must be equal, and only by being of different substances could they be inequal.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,760
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7/25/2012 7:02:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I also never understood who the "Holy Ghost" is. I know who Jesus is, and who God is, but who is the "Holy Ghost". It seems their are only two entities Jesus and God. What is the "Holy Ghost".
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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7/25/2012 7:28:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 7:02:01 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
I also never understood who the "Holy Ghost" is. I know who Jesus is, and who God is, but who is the "Holy Ghost". It seems their are only two entities Jesus and God. What is the "Holy Ghost".

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity, seen as the one who Jesus promised to send after he was gone.

John 14:16-17
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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7/25/2012 8:24:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 10:15:16 PM, EvanK wrote:
I am not a religious expert, but I have a hard time trying to wrap my head around the idea that Christianity

Christians have a large pantheon, including Satan and Michael. It all depends on what you want to call a "god." As long as Christians get mileage out of saying they are monotheistic, they will continue to say it.

(those that believe in the trinity, anyway) is considered monotheistic, and yet there are three entities, Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

There's no point in trying to understand this. The Christians themselves will tell you that it doesn't make sense to humans. I saw five experts in a panel discussion. They each gave an explanation (for instance: Jehovah is like water, which has three states, liquid, solid, and gas) and each explanation was denounced by the other four experts. Then they all agreed that trinitarianism is "true," even though it had no meaning; the word doesn't communicate anything from the speaker to the listener.

My catholic friend who studied to be a Jesuit told me that no human being can comprehend the trinity.

In other words, it doesn't make sense. It is a contradiction, but they are wedded to it anyway.

Doesn't make sense, three entities in one entity? Logical fallacy I would think? A person cannot have three spirits/souls can they?

Again, it's not worth wrestling with. Any one of us could devise a meaningful non-contradictory theory of what the trinity is. But that wouldn't be what Christians mean by the word. They all mean different things, many of them stupid, many of them officially rejected by the church, many of them self-contradictory, many of them vacant of coherency. Since Christians all mean different things by the word "trinity," the word has no agreed or actual meaning. Therefore, there is nothing to understand.

Monotheism means, one Supreme Entity. Not three. That's Polytheism (multiple Supreme Entities).

True.

What's more, while Jesus (God the Son) was on Earth, God the Father and Holy Ghost were in heaven. Logic suggests that a singular entity can only be in one place at one time, and cannot split itself into more than one entity. Logically, there is no way for the trinity to be considered a singular entity. Or so it appears to me.

Don't try to use logic on their miracles. Instead, use miracles on their logic.

Anytime I ask someone this question, they (other Christians, mainly Catholics) just tell me it's one of the Christian mysteries that no one will ever understand, but is necessary to believe to be called a Christian.

You cannot possibly believe that something is true without understanding what the something is. Can you believe that Vorxtelx is true? No, not without a coherent definition of what Vorxtelx is.

Blind faith, then?

Yes.

Anyone care to explain?

They were Jews. The Jews are monotheistic. But they worshiped Jesus. They had to somehow square that contradiction, so they conflated Jesus with Jehovah.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,760
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7/25/2012 5:05:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 7:28:30 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 7/25/2012 7:02:01 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
I also never understood who the "Holy Ghost" is. I know who Jesus is, and who God is, but who is the "Holy Ghost". It seems their are only two entities Jesus and God. What is the "Holy Ghost".

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity, seen as the one who Jesus promised to send after he was gone.

John 14:16-17

Cool. Thank you. I have always wondered about this Holy Ghost guy. Is he not born yet, or is he just chilling in heaven? Any description about what this guy is like or is it a mystery?
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/25/2012 9:24:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 2:32:29 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 7/24/2012 10:15:16 PM, EvanK wrote:
I am not a religious expert, but I have a hard time trying to wrap my head around the idea that Christianity (those that believe in the trinity, anyway) is considered monotheistic, and yet there are three entities, Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Doesn't make sense, three entities in one entity? Logical fallacy I would think? A person cannot have three spirits/souls can they? Monotheism means, one Supreme Entity. Not three. That's Polytheism (multiple Supreme Entities). What's more, while Jesus (God the Son) was on Earth, God the Father and Holy Ghost were in heaven. Logic suggests that a singular entity can only be in one place at one time, and cannot split itself into more than one entity. Logically, there is no way for the trinity to be considered a singular entity. Or so it appears to me.

Anytime I ask someone this question, they (other Christians, mainly Catholics) just tell me it's one of the Christian mysteries that no one will ever understand, but is necessary to believe to be called a Christian. Blind faith, then? Anyone care to explain?

http://www.debate.org...

That might help. It also might not. I don't really think I could explain it any better anyway, though.

I was taught basically what Pro outlined in his opening argument.


At 7/24/2012 10:52:01 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I think that the official catholic line is that they're con-substantial..
That is, God, son, and holy spirit are all of the same substance...

Not excusing calling it Monotheistic though...

For me and you and the earth and etc.. are all of the same type substance..
but we're multiple thing/people..

different entities = different gods... I don't care if they're of the same type stuff.

Being consubstantial means that they are all equal, not that being of the same substance makes them one God. This is specific rejection of the theories that the Son is less than the Father. If they are all of the same substance, than they must be equal, and only by being of different substances could they be inequal.

It seems as though it is argued that there is one position for God, and three entities share it, and so it is considered it monotheistic. But I do not see the logic of calling it monotheisitc when there are three entities being worshipped.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/25/2012 10:17:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/24/2012 10:41:20 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Don't you know bro?
The Christian deity is, totally like, like H20. Ice, water, steam... They're all the same thing but in three different forms.

Your example more accuratly resembles Modalism then it does Trinitarianism :P
joneszj
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7/25/2012 10:27:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Entities is not an accurate term in the manner you are using it I believe. Theology describes the Trinity as 3 seperate persons and 1 substance that is God. The Cerberus analogy is ok. the reason any Christian will tell you its a mystery is because it is not fully in detail expressed to us in scripture, only enough to conclude what we have (1 substance 3 persons). They more likely mean a paradox.

"paradox is an apparent contradiction that under closer scrutiny yields resolution."
R. C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith (Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House, 1996).

Scripture has three seperate persons each claiming to be God while at the same time unrelentlessly affirming Monotheism. Either its a contradiction or we have 3 seperate persons which consist of one God. For what its worth that is about the best summary of it I can give. :P
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/25/2012 10:49:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:27:54 PM, joneszj wrote:
Entities is not an accurate term in the manner you are using it I believe. Theology describes the Trinity as 3 seperate persons and 1 substance that is God. The Cerberus analogy is ok. the reason any Christian will tell you its a mystery is because it is not fully in detail expressed to us in scripture, only enough to conclude what we have (1 substance 3 persons). They more likely mean a paradox.

"paradox is an apparent contradiction that under closer scrutiny yields resolution."
R. C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith (Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House, 1996).

Scripture has three seperate persons each claiming to be God while at the same time unrelentlessly affirming Monotheism. Either its a contradiction or we have 3 seperate persons which consist of one God. For what its worth that is about the best summary of it I can give. :P

Well, I would guess that 3 seperate persons mean that it is three seperate beings then, or polytheism. Makes your head spin, lol but oh well. It's fun to think about. :P
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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7/25/2012 11:16:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/25/2012 10:49:40 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/25/2012 10:27:54 PM, joneszj wrote:
Entities is not an accurate term in the manner you are using it I believe. Theology describes the Trinity as 3 seperate persons and 1 substance that is God. The Cerberus analogy is ok. the reason any Christian will tell you its a mystery is because it is not fully in detail expressed to us in scripture, only enough to conclude what we have (1 substance 3 persons). They more likely mean a paradox.

"paradox is an apparent contradiction that under closer scrutiny yields resolution."
R. C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith (Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House, 1996).

Scripture has three seperate persons each claiming to be God while at the same time unrelentlessly affirming Monotheism. Either its a contradiction or we have 3 seperate persons which consist of one God. For what its worth that is about the best summary of it I can give. :P

Well, I would guess that 3 seperate persons mean that it is three seperate beings then, or polytheism. Makes your head spin, lol but oh well. It's fun to think about. :P

If you have the stamina look up R C Sproul and how he explains the doctrine. He does a great job.