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Investigating Religion

drafterman
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7/27/2012 8:04:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
In exchanges between theists and atheists, the conversation almost aways gets overrun with invective, sarcasm, and a general lack of serious inquiry and response. Now, I discredit Christians more than I do atheists, though I don't consider this to be a double standard. Christians are the ones that believe our souls are on the line. If atheists are right and we fail to convince a Christian as a result of our demeanour, then so what? However, if Christians are right, and failed to convince an atheist as a result of their demeanour, then it raises questions, given what is on the line.

Nevertheless, I still think some effort should be made, by atheists, to address the issue with sincerity and gravity. This is my attempt to do so. Not that I don't on a regular basis, it just doesn't usually lead anywhere, since some Christians don't take the opportunity to drop the attidues. However I like to try again, from time to time.

Some people have expressed the opinion that atheists are atheists because:
A) We don't want there to be a god.
B) Ego/Narcissism
C) Slave to the status quo/Laziness
D) To look cool
E) Aren't actually atheists, just pretending to be so/Atheists don't actually exist

What follows is a general refutation of these points, an explanation as to why they are silly, as shown through a personal narrative of my life as an atheist.

I am an American and was born so. I was also born to parents who were Christian. By all accounts I should have been a theist myself. Our church attendence was infrequent, but regular - usually Christmas and Easter - but that is about it.

Despite being Christians, my parents (or at least my father) had a very open philosophy about religion, in that it should be something I chose to do myself. In that regard, it wasn't forced upon me. I wasn't baptised and I didn't have the Bible crammed down my throat. Regardless, even in this situation I probably should have ended up being a theist. I imagine many people consider themselves a Christian, even if it wasn't indoctrinated into them, simply through cultural absorbtion. Their Christianity is taken for granted, and assumed. Certainly I accepted it at this level, in the same vein that I once accepted Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, but eventually grew out of it.

That is not to say that I didn't seriously investigate the matter. I have, through my life, even recently, made several genuine and passionate attempts to discern, personally, the existence of some force out there. At times in my life I've pleaded, I've begged, I've demanded, I've bargained, I've done everything it has occurred to me to do, to try and initiate some form of communication, to discern some sort of sign that there was something out there, listening. The result? Nothing.

At this stage, all of the previous points identified above are hereby refuted, though this is not the end of my story. I have opened myself; I've looked and listened. My lack of becoming a Christian is, in this regard, a result of whatever being out there not taking the opportunity to accept me, as I've certainly offerred myself. It isn't a result of ego or some specific desire. I imagine that if some being had made itself known to me, I would have been thrilled.

My story doesn't end here because there is more to it. Above is merely the emotional aspect; juvenile attempts to try and discover who I was and whether anything was out there; to see what the hell other people were talking about in terms of God or a relationship with Jesus. I hadn't yet established myself, at least cognitively, as an Atheist. While the efforts above have happend throughout my life, and while I'll occasionally give it a go, just to see (so I can't be accused of shutting the door at any point), I'd say my most passionate inquiries were during my adolescent and teenage years.

I first started explicitly identifying myself as an atheist, openly so, in High School. I can't exactly say why. I have neither a specific memory of when I started or stopped believing in Santa nor a specific memory of when I started being an explicit atheist. Certainly there was no small amount of youthful rebellion involved. I did take an amount of pride in saying I was an atheist, and there was a certain thrill in bucking against the establishment. Now, it may seem that this proves D above, but remember, at this point I was already an atheist. I had already rejected God. Looking cool wasn't part of why I was an atheist, even if it factored into how I chose to express myself as an atheist.

Eventually I would mellow in this regard. For a few years I even engaged in the fallacy of agnosticism as a middle ground. As I got older I realize that it wasn't exactly smart, or safe, to openly identify as an atheist in America, and I felt that identifying myself as an agnostic was a safer route. It would take several years before I realized the mistake, and re-identified myself as an atheist.

My presence online, as members of various sites, is what really got me solidified in my atheism and aware of the logical arguments for and against god. Prior to this, my rejection of god was merely a result of my own, personal, introspection resulting in nothing. Online, I felt I could safely express myself as an atheist, which exposed me to people presenting arguments for and against theism. From here I began investigating on my own, learning about apologetics and all the arguments that I could, while also arguing against theists myself.

And that pretty much brings me to the present. My atheism is not because I want their to be no god, or because of some sort of narcissistic impulse, or because I'm a rebel. It's because my own personal investigations have yielded nothing in that regard, and my awareness and understanding of the arguments for and against theism have only solidified my current position.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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7/27/2012 8:39:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
+1 I hate it when people call us prtenders or willfully rejecting God. My conversion story is quite similar.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Viper-King
Posts: 4,822
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7/29/2012 11:30:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My question to you, Drafterman. are "Why do you reject the existence of a god?" "Does atheism give you the ability to find your true identity? "Do you believe in the existence of evil and good?" "What advice would you give to someone having Christianity crammed down their throat?"
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/29/2012 11:59:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: The name in the Bible is intentionally a symbol of evil. That is why they want you to Reject God, or Believe positivly against God. Because they are trying to make you fit into thier version. We should just be considered non-religious. The Concept athiest doesn't make sense. Because it a non existence of a faith IN God.

Strong Atheism is BULLSh!T. No God =non-existing God you can't believe in non-existence because its not there believe in. These are people who think you can disprove God with physical observation. You would have to go outside of the physcial universe. All the orignal bible description were in physical events. Heaven was literally in the Clouds And Hell underground. where do you think the got the HOT burning fire idea. From volcanoes. In Northern Viking traditions Hell was FROST BLUE. because the cold sucked. So to be solid, cold in freezing pain was hell to them.

Its only as we learn more of the universe(universe is not in the BIBLE) they got Sky Moon, sun and Earth that it. The rest is manuplation to keep being applicable.

At first the further we learned about about above the further away heaven was. Jesus body was seen going up. ANd Mohamid going up, on a flying Horse. If this is true. Jesus is still flying through meaningless space. ANd mohammod is a dead carcus on a magical horse still flying in meaningless space. If they have not been pulled by gravitation into SUNS. They where only made to convince the ignorant people of early centuries who didn't know how the world works. They thought everything was Ghost and spirits.

......The Fool and a Theologin

Theologin: God is up there in the heavens.

The Fool: Oh yeah well we checked there we don't see anything.

Theologin: It further up!!

The Fool: Okay still nothing!

THeologin: its in a galaxy far far away!

The Fool: okay we can see these galaxies now!

THeologin: even furhter then that.

...........the Fool Pokes the Theoligins shoulder from behind.

Theologin: WTF?

The Fool: We have went so far that we ended up right back behind you it was circular (non-euclidian geometry.) <(XD)

Theologin: oh umm, its in another world.

The Fool: Oh come on. Come the Fvck on!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/30/2012 8:02:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 11:30:41 PM, Viper-King wrote:
My question to you, Drafterman. are "Why do you reject the existence of a god?"

Because I have yet to be exposed to sufficientlly compelling evidence.

"Does atheism give you the ability to find your true identity?"

No, it does not. Atheism does not give me anything. However, you're thinking of it backwards. I do not derive my identity from labels. Rather, it is who I am, my identity, that indicates which labels most accurately describe me. I am not derived from my atheism. My atheism is derived from me.

"Do you believe in the existence of evil and good?"

Yes.

"What advice would you give to someone having Christianity crammed down their throat?"

That would depend on the specific circumstances.
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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7/30/2012 10:48:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you discredit Christians because of their beliefs, and not atheists because of their lack of beliefs, that's the textbook definition of a double standard.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/30/2012 11:10:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 10:48:13 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
If you discredit Christians because of their beliefs, and not atheists because of their lack of beliefs, that's the textbook definition of a double standard.

No it isn't. The standard pertains to how one should act when one believes that someone else's soul is on the line. Just because the outcome is different doesn't mean it is necessarily a result of two standards.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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7/30/2012 11:20:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/27/2012 8:04:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
In exchanges between theists and atheists, the conversation almost aways gets overrun with invective, sarcasm, and a general lack of serious inquiry and response. Now, I discredit Christians more than I do atheists, though I don't consider this to be a double standard. Christians are the ones that believe our souls are on the line. If atheists are right and we fail to convince a Christian as a result of our demeanour, then so what? However, if Christians are right, and failed to convince an atheist as a result of their demeanour, then it raises questions, given what is on the line.

This is acceptable only under very specific terms. The Atheist must not be militant, and have no concrete opinions regarding religion and its implications (which is rare). Moreover, the religious (in this case, the Christian) must be the markedly judgmental type that assume if your beliefs don't correspond directly with theirs, they can render judgment in place of God.

Nevertheless, I still think some effort should be made, by atheists, to address the issue with sincerity and gravity. This is my attempt to do so. Not that I don't on a regular basis, it just doesn't usually lead anywhere, since some Christians don't take the opportunity to drop the attidues. However I like to try again, from time to time.

Lol, oh, you don't sound biased at all. >.> Lol.

Some people have expressed the opinion that atheists are atheists because:
A) We don't want there to be a god.
B) Ego/Narcissism
C) Slave to the status quo/Laziness
D) To look cool
E) Aren't actually atheists, just pretending to be so/Atheists don't actually exist

What follows is a general refutation of these points, an explanation as to why they are silly, as shown through a personal narrative of my life as an atheist.

I am an American and was born so. I was also born to parents who were Christian. By all accounts I should have been a theist myself. Our church attendence was infrequent, but regular - usually Christmas and Easter - but that is about it.

Despite being Christians, my parents (or at least my father) had a very open philosophy about religion, in that it should be something I chose to do myself. In that regard, it wasn't forced upon me. I wasn't baptised and I didn't have the Bible crammed down my throat. Regardless, even in this situation I probably should have ended up being a theist. I imagine many people consider themselves a Christian, even if it wasn't indoctrinated into them, simply through cultural absorbtion. Their Christianity is taken for granted, and assumed. Certainly I accepted it at this level, in the same vein that I once accepted Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, but eventually grew out of it.

That is not to say that I didn't seriously investigate the matter. I have, through my life, even recently, made several genuine and passionate attempts to discern, personally, the existence of some force out there. At times in my life I've pleaded, I've begged, I've demanded, I've bargained, I've done everything it has occurred to me to do, to try and initiate some form of communication, to discern some sort of sign that there was something out there, listening. The result? Nothing.

I think, in the interest of sincerity, this is a more logical focus of this conversation, not random opinions of the beliefs you currently hold.

At this stage, all of the previous points identified above are hereby refuted, though this is not the end of my story. I have opened myself; I've looked and listened. My lack of becoming a Christian is, in this regard, a result of whatever being out there not taking the opportunity to accept me, as I've certainly offerred myself. It isn't a result of ego or some specific desire. I imagine that if some being had made itself known to me, I would have been thrilled.

My story doesn't end here because there is more to it. Above is merely the emotional aspect; juvenile attempts to try and discover who I was and whether anything was out there;

Where?

to see what the hell other people were talking about in terms of God or a relationship with Jesus. I hadn't yet established myself, at least cognitively, as an Atheist. While the efforts above have happend throughout my life, and while I'll occasionally give it a go, just to see (so I can't be accused of shutting the door at any point), I'd say my most passionate inquiries were during my adolescent and teenage years.

I first started explicitly identifying myself as an atheist, openly so, in High School. I can't exactly say why. I have neither a specific memory of when I started or stopped believing in Santa nor a specific memory of when I started being an explicit atheist. Certainly there was no small amount of youthful rebellion involved. I did take an amount of pride in saying I was an atheist, and there was a certain thrill in bucking against the establishment. Now, it may seem that this proves D above, but remember, at this point I was already an atheist. I had already rejected God. Looking cool wasn't part of why I was an atheist, even if it factored into how I chose to express myself as an atheist.

Eventually I would mellow in this regard. For a few years I even engaged in the fallacy

You're going to have to substantiate that one.

of agnosticism as a middle ground. As I got older I realize that it wasn't exactly smart, or safe, to openly identify as an atheist in America, and I felt that identifying myself as an agnostic was a safer route. It would take several years before I realized the mistake, and re-identified myself as an atheist.

My presence online, as members of various sites, is what really got me solidified in my atheism and aware of the logical arguments for and against god. Prior to this, my rejection of god was merely a result of my own, personal, introspection resulting in nothing. Online, I felt I could safely express myself as an atheist, which exposed me to people presenting arguments for and against theism. From here I began investigating on my own, learning about apologetics and all the arguments that I could, while also arguing against theists myself.

And that pretty much brings me to the present. My atheism is not because I want their to be no god, or because of some sort of narcissistic impulse, or because I'm a rebel. It's because my own personal investigations have yielded nothing in that regard, and my awareness and understanding of the arguments for and against theism have only solidified my current position.

Geez, I really expected to see some substance here.

What arguments are you referring to specifically? What is the nature of your "personal investigations," and what exactly where you looking for specifically when you pursued "god" or the existence thereof?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/30/2012 11:39:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 11:20:44 AM, Ren wrote:
At 7/27/2012 8:04:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
In exchanges between theists and atheists, the conversation almost aways gets overrun with invective, sarcasm, and a general lack of serious inquiry and response. Now, I discredit Christians more than I do atheists, though I don't consider this to be a double standard. Christians are the ones that believe our souls are on the line. If atheists are right and we fail to convince a Christian as a result of our demeanour, then so what? However, if Christians are right, and failed to convince an atheist as a result of their demeanour, then it raises questions, given what is on the line.

This is acceptable only under very specific terms. The Atheist must not be militant, and have no concrete opinions regarding religion and its implications (which is rare). Moreover, the religious (in this case, the Christian) must be the markedly judgmental type that assume if your beliefs don't correspond directly with theirs, they can render judgment in place of God.

Uhm, I don't accept your terms.


Nevertheless, I still think some effort should be made, by atheists, to address the issue with sincerity and gravity. This is my attempt to do so. Not that I don't on a regular basis, it just doesn't usually lead anywhere, since some Christians don't take the opportunity to drop the attidues. However I like to try again, from time to time.

Lol, oh, you don't sound biased at all. >.> Lol.

I wasn't claiming to be unbiased.


Some people have expressed the opinion that atheists are atheists because:
A) We don't want there to be a god.
B) Ego/Narcissism
C) Slave to the status quo/Laziness
D) To look cool
E) Aren't actually atheists, just pretending to be so/Atheists don't actually exist

What follows is a general refutation of these points, an explanation as to why they are silly, as shown through a personal narrative of my life as an atheist.

I am an American and was born so. I was also born to parents who were Christian. By all accounts I should have been a theist myself. Our church attendence was infrequent, but regular - usually Christmas and Easter - but that is about it.

Despite being Christians, my parents (or at least my father) had a very open philosophy about religion, in that it should be something I chose to do myself. In that regard, it wasn't forced upon me. I wasn't baptised and I didn't have the Bible crammed down my throat. Regardless, even in this situation I probably should have ended up being a theist. I imagine many people consider themselves a Christian, even if it wasn't indoctrinated into them, simply through cultural absorbtion. Their Christianity is taken for granted, and assumed. Certainly I accepted it at this level, in the same vein that I once accepted Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, but eventually grew out of it.

That is not to say that I didn't seriously investigate the matter. I have, through my life, even recently, made several genuine and passionate attempts to discern, personally, the existence of some force out there. At times in my life I've pleaded, I've begged, I've demanded, I've bargained, I've done everything it has occurred to me to do, to try and initiate some form of communication, to discern some sort of sign that there was something out there, listening. The result? Nothing.

I think, in the interest of sincerity, this is a more logical focus of this conversation, not random opinions of the beliefs you currently hold.

Ok?


At this stage, all of the previous points identified above are hereby refuted, though this is not the end of my story. I have opened myself; I've looked and listened. My lack of becoming a Christian is, in this regard, a result of whatever being out there not taking the opportunity to accept me, as I've certainly offerred myself. It isn't a result of ego or some specific desire. I imagine that if some being had made itself known to me, I would have been thrilled.

My story doesn't end here because there is more to it. Above is merely the emotional aspect; juvenile attempts to try and discover who I was and whether anything was out there;

Where?

There.


to see what the hell other people were talking about in terms of God or a relationship with Jesus. I hadn't yet established myself, at least cognitively, as an Atheist. While the efforts above have happend throughout my life, and while I'll occasionally give it a go, just to see (so I can't be accused of shutting the door at any point), I'd say my most passionate inquiries were during my adolescent and teenage years.

I first started explicitly identifying myself as an atheist, openly so, in High School. I can't exactly say why. I have neither a specific memory of when I started or stopped believing in Santa nor a specific memory of when I started being an explicit atheist. Certainly there was no small amount of youthful rebellion involved. I did take an amount of pride in saying I was an atheist, and there was a certain thrill in bucking against the establishment. Now, it may seem that this proves D above, but remember, at this point I was already an atheist. I had already rejected God. Looking cool wasn't part of why I was an atheist, even if it factored into how I chose to express myself as an atheist.

Eventually I would mellow in this regard. For a few years I even engaged in the fallacy

You're going to have to substantiate that one.

Why?


of agnosticism as a middle ground. As I got older I realize that it wasn't exactly smart, or safe, to openly identify as an atheist in America, and I felt that identifying myself as an agnostic was a safer route. It would take several years before I realized the mistake, and re-identified myself as an atheist.

My presence online, as members of various sites, is what really got me solidified in my atheism and aware of the logical arguments for and against god. Prior to this, my rejection of god was merely a result of my own, personal, introspection resulting in nothing. Online, I felt I could safely express myself as an atheist, which exposed me to people presenting arguments for and against theism. From here I began investigating on my own, learning about apologetics and all the arguments that I could, while also arguing against theists myself.

And that pretty much brings me to the present. My atheism is not because I want their to be no god, or because of some sort of narcissistic impulse, or because I'm a rebel. It's because my own personal investigations have yielded nothing in that regard, and my awareness and understanding of the arguments for and against theism have only solidified my current position.

Geez, I really expected to see some substance here.

What arguments are you referring to specifically?

Specfically? None. Otherwise I would have named them.

What is the nature of your "personal investigations,"

I described the nature of my personal investigations above. I'm not particularly willing to go deeper, as we're delving into highly personal territory and, given the response I've received, I'm not really comfortable doing that with this audience.

and what exactly where you looking for specifically when you pursued "god" or the existence thereof?

When I was looking for something specifically, I was looking for God and the existence thereof.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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7/30/2012 12:07:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 11:39:49 AM, drafterman wrote:
Uhm, I don't accept your terms.

Lol, why not? Otherwise, you're just dressing your opinions in cute clothes and calling it unique and informed because you think it's couture.

I wasn't claiming to be unbiased.

At 7/27/2012 8:04:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
...to address the issue with sincerity and gravity.

...requires impartiality.

Ok?

At 7/27/2012 8:04:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
...to address the issue with sincerity and gravity.

There.

Oh, it's a little dark in there. I can see why He was so hard to find.

Why?

Because otherwise, calling agnosticism fallacious is a blind assertion, further coloring this post with the fair hues of opinion and weightlessness.

Specfically? None. Otherwise I would have named them.

What is the nature of your "personal investigations,"

I described the nature of my personal investigations above. I'm not particularly willing to go deeper, as we're delving into highly personal territory and, given the response I've received, I'm not really comfortable doing that with this audience.

Oh.

Lol? Seems to be a bit of a waste of time, wouldn't you say?

"Let's talk about this, although I'm not willing to be sincere about it, and I really don't want to talk about it."
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/30/2012 12:16:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 12:07:12 PM, Ren wrote:
At 7/30/2012 11:39:49 AM, drafterman wrote:
Uhm, I don't accept your terms.

Lol, why not?

Because I believe if Christians truly believe I am at risk of sufferring the worst punishment imaginable, then that entails a moral obligation that isn't waived simply because I'm not nice.

Otherwise, you're just dressing your opinions in cute clothes and calling it unique and informed because you think it's couture.

I'm doing no such thing. You're pretending I am, so you can be snide about it, but I'm not. I'm simply being open and honest. Given the response, I think it says a lot about why many people don't do that, and simply resort to picking at each other.


I wasn't claiming to be unbiased.

At 7/27/2012 8:04:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
...to address the issue with sincerity and gravity.

...requires impartiality.

No it doesn't.


Ok?

At 7/27/2012 8:04:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
...to address the issue with sincerity and gravity.

There.

Oh, it's a little dark in there. I can see why He was so hard to find.

Why?

Because otherwise, calling agnosticism fallacious is a blind assertion, further coloring this post with the fair hues of opinion and weightlessness.

Inasmuch as this post contains opinions (and not merely a factual recounting of my past) they are just that: opinion. Colored with nothing else.

Regarding the fallacy of agnosticism as a middle ground between atheism and theism: I've made my position on this abundently clear in the many many threads that have been dedicated to the issue. I don't see why I should repeat myself everytime I wish to restate my stance on the matter.


Specfically? None. Otherwise I would have named them.

What is the nature of your "personal investigations,"

I described the nature of my personal investigations above. I'm not particularly willing to go deeper, as we're delving into highly personal territory and, given the response I've received, I'm not really comfortable doing that with this audience.

Oh.

Lol? Seems to be a bit of a waste of time, wouldn't you say?

Time will tell.


"Let's talk about this, although I'm not willing to be sincere about it, and I really don't want to talk about it."

Nothing I've said is insincere. I think you're just slightly bitter at my harsh treatment of you in response to your attempt to derail one of my previous threads which, also, you treated me as being insincere.

What I said is truthful, even if it is just a weightless opinion. It is sincere, even if it is biased. If you see no value in it, then I don't give a fvck. This type of post is prime bait for any Christian who genuinely believes what they preach and is equally sincere about it.

I've explained the path I took, the path that has, thus far, resulted in me being an atheist. If Christianity is the more correct position, then obviously I've erred, despite my efforts. It's a prime opportunity to come in and suggest what I've done wrong and how I could fix it. If you accept my personal account as true, then you have to accept that I'm at least willing to try to test the claims of Christianity.

Given the response it is no wonder that we don't have discusses at that personal level. And you balk that I don't get more personal? Fvck you. You don't deserve it.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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7/30/2012 12:31:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 12:16:29 PM, drafterman wrote:

Drafter. First of all, the only reason I ever reply to your posts is because I consider you or your post interesting. That is, exclusively, the only reason I reply to people's posts here. Not to derail them, not to push any sort of agenda. On here, I have no agenda. It's one of the aspects of my time here that makes it pleasant to me.

Second, I asked those questions, not to "derail" you, or only to deride you (although that was a bit of the intention, and it was all in fun, really), but because they're inaccurate. A Christian that really follows the doctrine would not condemn you simply because of your beliefs. All good people will receive glory from God, as it says in Romans, "the Jew first, and also the Gentile." In other words, given there is a Christian God, He accepts you if you're a good person, even if you're an Atheist. It may pisss him off if you worship other Gods, but He will forgive you and accept you anyway, as long as you're a good person, as this is precisely what he did for the Jews He saved (who consistently worshipped other gods in addition to Him).

So, I don't know what you're gleaning from my responses, but you're way off mark... so much, in fact, that I fancy I must intellectually intimidate you, which is something someone as clever as yourself is undoubtedly unaccustomed to. That would clarify both your response to me in the other thread to which you referred, as well as your response to me here.

Agnosticism is not a middle ground for Atheism and Theism (lol), and it's pretty presumptious of you to assume that I read everything you post, and should be fully aware of these "arguments" of yours that were clearly immuatable (?). In actuality, you're just coming off as absurdly and unfoundedly arrogant.

You used to be far more impressive before you started replying so emotionally. Maybe Mafia is a better place for you.

In any case, as usual, this seems to be some platform for you to insult and misrepresent Christians and nothing more. It's ridiculously obvious that you're being insincere, and even more so given your knee-jerk reaction to my sincere reply.

Nonetheless, I have no negative feelings about you. So, you can calm down and understand that my posts are to be taken at face value, with no linkage to previous interactions between us.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/30/2012 12:36:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 10:48:13 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
If you discredit Christians because of their beliefs, and not atheists because of their lack of beliefs, that's the textbook definition of a double standard.:

The onus is on the one making a positive declaration. The only time an atheist has the burden of proof is by categorically stating that they "know" there is no such thing as God, not "I have reason to assume God."

That's the difference.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
drafterman
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7/30/2012 12:41:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 12:31:32 PM, Ren wrote:
At 7/30/2012 12:16:29 PM, drafterman wrote:

Drafter. First of all, the only reason I ever reply to your posts is because I consider you or your post interesting. That is, exclusively, the only reason I reply to people's posts here. Not to derail them, not to push any sort of agenda. On here, I have no agenda. It's one of the aspects of my time here that makes it pleasant to me.

Second, I asked those questions, not to "derail" you, or only to deride you (although that was a bit of the intention, and it was all in fun, really), but because they're inaccurate. A Christian that really follows the doctrine would not condemn you simply because of your beliefs.

It's the belief itself that contains the condemnation. Furthermore, that's out of the scope of the scenario I was presenting. So OBVIOUSLY it's not accurate regarding that scenario - it wasn't addressing that scenario.

All good people will receive glory from God, as it says in Romans, "the Jew first, and also the Gentile." In other words, given there is a Christian God, He accepts you if you're a good person, even if you're an Atheist. It may pisss him off if you worship other Gods, but He will forgive you and accept you anyway, as long as you're a good person, as this is precisely what he did for the Jews He saved (who consistently worshipped other gods in addition to Him).

So, I don't know what you're gleaning from my responses, but you're way off mark... so much, in fact, that I fancy I must intellectually intimidate you, which is something someone as clever as yourself is undoubtedly unaccustomed to. That would clarify both your response to me in the other thread to which you referred, as well as your response to me here.

Agnosticism is not a middle ground for Atheism and Theism (lol), and it's pretty presumptious of you to assume that I read everything you post, and should be fully aware of these "arguments" of yours that were clearly immuatable (?). In actuality, you're just coming off as absurdly and unfoundedly arrogant.

I didn't presume that anyone reads everything I post. I was merely describing a phase of my life, not making an argument. Why I feel that agnosticism isn't a middle ground is immaterial to the post at hand, otherwise I would have supported it. Unless you're going to assert and argument that I need to provide a full defense of every assertion I make, everytime I make it, regardless of context, then your objection here is invalid. Then again, since your stated intention here is to deride me, I doubt that you really care.


You used to be far more impressive before you started replying so emotionally. Maybe Mafia is a better place for you.

I'll keep that in mind in case impressing you becomes a goal of mine.


In any case, as usual, this seems to be some platform for you to insult and misrepresent Christians and nothing more. It's ridiculously obvious that you're being insincere, and even more so given your knee-jerk reaction to my sincere reply.

Everything I said was sincere, whether you believe it or not. In fact, my knee-jerk reaction is precisely because it was a sincere post, one that contains emotional value for me. It is also coupled with the fact that, at one point I respected you, until, for some reason, you just arbitrarily decided to treat everything I say as a lie. When you care to enlighten me as to why, maybe we can resolve this. Until then, I'd just as soon have you not respond.


Nonetheless, I have no negative feelings about you. So, you can calm down and understand that my posts are to be taken at face value, with no linkage to previous interactions between us.

Ah. So I have to take you sincerely, but you don't have to take me sincerely? So, I'm just supposed to roll over and accept that you believe everything I'm saying is a lie, but I'm supposed to take you "at face value."

I propose an alternative: Go fvck yourself.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/30/2012 12:41:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In other words, given there is a Christian God, He accepts you if you're a good person, even if you're an Atheist. It may pisss him off if you worship other Gods, but He will forgive you and accept you anyway, as long as you're a good person, as this is precisely what he did for the Jews He saved (who consistently worshipped other gods in addition to Him).:

Nothing you stated is biblical. Where does it say, or even allude, that if you're a basically "good person," God will accept you. What does that even mean if the bible is explicit on stating what is good?

Jesus clearly stated that the only way into heaven is through him, it also says that if you BELIEVE in him, you will be saved. It doesn't say do a bunch of works and you'll be saved, it says man cannot be saved by works but rather faith.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ren
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7/30/2012 12:44:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 12:41:14 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/30/2012 12:31:32 PM, Ren wrote:
At 7/30/2012 12:16:29 PM, drafterman wrote:

Drafter. First of all, the only reason I ever reply to your posts is because I consider you or your post interesting. That is, exclusively, the only reason I reply to people's posts here. Not to derail them, not to push any sort of agenda. On here, I have no agenda. It's one of the aspects of my time here that makes it pleasant to me.

Second, I asked those questions, not to "derail" you, or only to deride you (although that was a bit of the intention, and it was all in fun, really), but because they're inaccurate. A Christian that really follows the doctrine would not condemn you simply because of your beliefs.

It's the belief itself that contains the condemnation. Furthermore, that's out of the scope of the scenario I was presenting. So OBVIOUSLY it's not accurate regarding that scenario - it wasn't addressing that scenario.

All good people will receive glory from God, as it says in Romans, "the Jew first, and also the Gentile." In other words, given there is a Christian God, He accepts you if you're a good person, even if you're an Atheist. It may pisss him off if you worship other Gods, but He will forgive you and accept you anyway, as long as you're a good person, as this is precisely what he did for the Jews He saved (who consistently worshipped other gods in addition to Him).

So, I don't know what you're gleaning from my responses, but you're way off mark... so much, in fact, that I fancy I must intellectually intimidate you, which is something someone as clever as yourself is undoubtedly unaccustomed to. That would clarify both your response to me in the other thread to which you referred, as well as your response to me here.

Agnosticism is not a middle ground for Atheism and Theism (lol), and it's pretty presumptious of you to assume that I read everything you post, and should be fully aware of these "arguments" of yours that were clearly immuatable (?). In actuality, you're just coming off as absurdly and unfoundedly arrogant.

I didn't presume that anyone reads everything I post. I was merely describing a phase of my life, not making an argument. Why I feel that agnosticism isn't a middle ground is immaterial to the post at hand, otherwise I would have supported it. Unless you're going to assert and argument that I need to provide a full defense of every assertion I make, everytime I make it, regardless of context, then your objection here is invalid. Then again, since your stated intention here is to deride me, I doubt that you really care.


You used to be far more impressive before you started replying so emotionally. Maybe Mafia is a better place for you.

I'll keep that in mind in case impressing you becomes a goal of mine.


In any case, as usual, this seems to be some platform for you to insult and misrepresent Christians and nothing more. It's ridiculously obvious that you're being insincere, and even more so given your knee-jerk reaction to my sincere reply.

Everything I said was sincere, whether you believe it or not. In fact, my knee-jerk reaction is precisely because it was a sincere post, one that contains emotional value for me. It is also coupled with the fact that, at one point I respected you, until, for some reason, you just arbitrarily decided to treat everything I say as a lie. When you care to enlighten me as to why, maybe we can resolve this. Until then, I'd just as soon have you not respond.


Nonetheless, I have no negative feelings about you. So, you can calm down and understand that my posts are to be taken at face value, with no linkage to previous interactions between us.

Ah. So I have to take you sincerely, but you don't have to take me sincerely? So, I'm just supposed to roll over and accept that you believe everything I'm saying is a lie, but I'm supposed to take you "at face value."

I propose an alternative: Go fvck yourself.

Omfg, Drafter, please grow up. You're being such a lamer. I used to really like you, and you're so intent and being infantile. Wtf, guy. :(
Ren
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7/30/2012 12:50:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 12:41:28 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
In other words, given there is a Christian God, He accepts you if you're a good person, even if you're an Atheist. It may pisss him off if you worship other Gods, but He will forgive you and accept you anyway, as long as you're a good person, as this is precisely what he did for the Jews He saved (who consistently worshipped other gods in addition to Him).:

Nothing you stated is biblical.

Romans 2:9-12:

9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

It is quite Biblical, friend.

Jesus was indicating that one gets to Heaven through His teachings, and that He will lobby in our favor before God.

Jesus made no indication of any worship or faith required.
drafterman
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7/30/2012 12:50:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Dude. You admited to just arbitrarily deciding that i am being insincere. What kind of reaponse did you fvcking expect? An invitation to be my childs godfather?
Ren
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7/30/2012 12:52:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 12:50:43 PM, drafterman wrote:
Dude. You admited to just arbitrarily deciding that i am being insincere. What kind of reaponse did you fvcking expect? An invitation to be my childs godfather?

It wasn't arbitrary, broskillz. I substantiate everything I say, and invite wrongness on my account.

How else could I learn?

No, you're just bring a big dickface to me for no reason, and I urge you to stop, if only because legit intellects and interesting posters are a minority on the internet.
drafterman
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7/30/2012 12:58:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 12:52:36 PM, Ren wrote:
At 7/30/2012 12:50:43 PM, drafterman wrote:
Dude. You admited to just arbitrarily deciding that i am being insincere. What kind of reaponse did you fvcking expect? An invitation to be my childs godfather?

It wasn't arbitrary, broskillz. I substantiate everything I say, and invite wrongness on my account.

Sorry, but claiming that it is "obvious" doesn't substantiate it.


How else could I learn?

I don't believe that you are.


No, you're just bring a big dickface to me for no reason, and I urge you to stop, if only because legit intellects and interesting posters are a minority on the internet.

If you see my responses to other people you'll see that I've been perfectly civil to them. So I think you need to seriously question why you've been singled out. That is if you care, which I don't believe that you do. Rather than actually believing I'm being insincere, I think you truly understand that I am, and that I am the type of person who responds pationately when question on such matters and are simply doing that to get the response you are getting.

I admit that I can be a bit dense when it comes to recognizing and responding appropriately to such behavior, but I am starting to come to realize it now. If this is not the case, well, at this point, I don't care.

I am not going to treat you civilly or at face value until you provide me the same curtesy.
Ren
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7/30/2012 1:07:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Draferman, I have been extremely patient and civil with you. I have responded to all of your posts with sincerity. However, you refuse to acknowledge that. So, I'll go ahead and respond in kind.

No one is impressed by an arrogant, lazy computer programmer who picks on people they don't know while challenging them in subjects they know nothing about. It just screams inferiority complex, and I'm sorry you hate your boss or can't stand up to your wife or whatever's bugging you, but your heading down the same road that everyone on this site end up on whenever they challenge me in this way and don't relent.

As a hint, every one of them threw a bittch fit and left.
drafterman
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7/30/2012 1:21:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 1:07:28 PM, Ren wrote:
Draferman, I have been extremely patient and civil with you.

No you haven't. You came into this thread treating me with derision, as you admit, and as though I wasn't being insincere. The tone of your posts may give off the superficial air of politeness, which only makes it all the worst. If you are going to deride me, at least have the goddamned balls to be open and honest about it instead of hiding behind false civility.

I have responded to all of your posts with sincerity. However, you refuse to acknowledge that. So, I'll go ahead and respond in kind.

Yes! I refuse to acknowledge that! Because you refuse to acknowledge that I was being sincere in my OP! What part of this don't you get?!


No one is impressed by an arrogant, lazy computer programmer who picks on people they don't know while challenging them in subjects they know nothing about.

What part of this do you imagine actually refers to me?

It just screams inferiority complex, and I'm sorry you hate your boss or can't stand up to your wife or whatever's bugging you, but your heading down the same road that everyone on this site end up on whenever they challenge me in this way and don't relent.

As a hint, every one of them threw a bittch fit and left.

I guess I didn't realize that this is a serial problem for you. I thought this was just a recent thing, this burr up your ass regarding me. Well, at least I know it isn't personal, but rather some sort of ingrained flaw on your part.

Bring it.
Ren
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7/30/2012 1:30:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 1:21:05 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/30/2012 1:07:28 PM, Ren wrote:
Draferman, I have been extremely patient and civil with you.

No you haven't. You came into this thread treating me with derision, as you admit, and as though I wasn't being insincere. The tone of your posts may give off the superficial air of politeness, which only makes it all the worst. If you are going to deride me, at least have the goddamned balls to be open and honest about it instead of hiding behind false civility.

I have responded to all of your posts with sincerity. However, you refuse to acknowledge that. So, I'll go ahead and respond in kind.

Yes! I refuse to acknowledge that! Because you refuse to acknowledge that I was being sincere in my OP! What part of this don't you get?!


No one is impressed by an arrogant, lazy computer programmer who picks on people they don't know while challenging them in subjects they know nothing about.

What part of this do you imagine actually refers to me?

It just screams inferiority complex, and I'm sorry you hate your boss or can't stand up to your wife or whatever's bugging you, but your heading down the same road that everyone on this site end up on whenever they challenge me in this way and don't relent.

As a hint, every one of them threw a bittch fit and left.

I guess I didn't realize that this is a serial problem for you. I thought this was just a recent thing, this burr up your ass regarding me. Well, at least I know it isn't personal, but rather some sort of ingrained flaw on your part.

Bring it.

Lol, if you insist, buddy, if you insist.

Let's begin.

First, I was being exceedingly polite, although you apparently don't appreciate the conclusions I've drawn. "Politeness" is not synonymous with "agreeable," however prominent you believe your misguided opinons are.

Of course, I consider you insincere, because your OP was a big wall of nothing.

You said, in a nutshell:

"Oh, when I was a kid, by parents told me to be a Christian, but they didn't beat it into me, so I naturally veered away in high school in an attempt to look cool, and have since thought about it, but rendered no real investigation of the subject, thus basing my interpretation of Christianity and religion in general on speculative assumption and statements from adherents to Poe's Law."

I mean, not only is your personal account of process to which you subscribe to explore a subject all but pathetic, but you clearly notice how little substance your posts have, claiming that you will not elaborate because you're so afraid what everyone thinks, you've been posting nothing on the topic ever since, and instead filled this thread with invectives and pejoratives aimed at me due to a thread I've just about forgotten, because it was like, a month ago.

Lol, I mean, how small of a person are you? I wasn't indicating that I'm not impressed, I was stating that you're unimpressive, or in other words, that you're embarassing yourself, and trust me -- the only reason why people don't eat your silly fat asss up on here is because of Mafia.

Get a life.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/30/2012 2:00:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 1:30:54 PM, Ren wrote:
At 7/30/2012 1:21:05 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 7/30/2012 1:07:28 PM, Ren wrote:
Draferman, I have been extremely patient and civil with you.

No you haven't. You came into this thread treating me with derision, as you admit, and as though I wasn't being insincere. The tone of your posts may give off the superficial air of politeness, which only makes it all the worst. If you are going to deride me, at least have the goddamned balls to be open and honest about it instead of hiding behind false civility.

I have responded to all of your posts with sincerity. However, you refuse to acknowledge that. So, I'll go ahead and respond in kind.

Yes! I refuse to acknowledge that! Because you refuse to acknowledge that I was being sincere in my OP! What part of this don't you get?!


No one is impressed by an arrogant, lazy computer programmer who picks on people they don't know while challenging them in subjects they know nothing about.

What part of this do you imagine actually refers to me?

It just screams inferiority complex, and I'm sorry you hate your boss or can't stand up to your wife or whatever's bugging you, but your heading down the same road that everyone on this site end up on whenever they challenge me in this way and don't relent.

As a hint, every one of them threw a bittch fit and left.

I guess I didn't realize that this is a serial problem for you. I thought this was just a recent thing, this burr up your ass regarding me. Well, at least I know it isn't personal, but rather some sort of ingrained flaw on your part.

Bring it.

Lol, if you insist, buddy, if you insist.

Let's begin.

First, I was being exceedingly polite, although you apparently don't appreciate the conclusions I've drawn. "Politeness" is not synonymous with "agreeable," however prominent you believe your misguided opinons are.

Of course, I consider you insincere, because your OP was a big wall of nothing.

You said, in a nutshell:

"Oh, when I was a kid, by parents told me to be a Christian, but they didn't beat it into me, so I naturally veered away in high school in an attempt to look cool, and have since thought about it, but rendered no real investigation of the subject, thus basing my interpretation of Christianity and religion in general on speculative assumption and statements from adherents to Poe's Law."

I mean, not only is your personal account of process to which you subscribe to explore a subject all but pathetic, but you clearly notice how little substance your posts have, claiming that you will not elaborate because you're so afraid what everyone thinks, you've been posting nothing on the topic ever since, and instead filled this thread with invectives and pejoratives aimed at me due to a thread I've just about forgotten, because it was like, a month ago.

Lol, I mean, how small of a person are you? I wasn't indicating that I'm not impressed, I was stating that you're unimpressive, or in other words, that you're embarassing yourself, and trust me -- the only reason why people don't eat your silly fat asss up on here is because of Mafia.

Get a life.

I'll consider this a rough draft, at best. Maybe you should work out some revisions in your head. Jot it down. Maybe add some amateur drawings to go with it. Come back when you've got something a bit more... robust. Something that isn't so obvious and superficial.

I was expecting some sort of hard hitting psychoanalysis. Something that cut right to the meat of the matter, tearing away this facade you imagine I've put up and lay me bare, exposed and vulnerable, weeping in a pile of my own tears.

This is bringing it? Really? Compared to your posts up to this point it's actually a down point for you. Maybe you're spent.

Take a break, do some brain storming. Come back when you have something.

kthxbai.
baggins
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7/30/2012 2:50:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/27/2012 8:04:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
In exchanges between theists and atheists, the conversation almost aways gets overrun with invective, sarcasm, and a general lack of serious inquiry and response. Now, I discredit Christians more than I do atheists, though I don't consider this to be a double standard. Christians are the ones that believe our souls are on the line. If atheists are right and we fail to convince a Christian as a result of our demeanour, then so what? However, if Christians are right, and failed to convince an atheist as a result of their demeanour, then it raises questions, given what is on the line.

Nevertheless, I still think some effort should be made, by atheists, to address the issue with sincerity and gravity. This is my attempt to do so. Not that I don't on a regular basis, it just doesn't usually lead anywhere, since some Christians don't take the opportunity to drop the attidues. However I like to try again, from time to time.

Some people have expressed the opinion that atheists are atheists because:
A) We don't want there to be a god.
B) Ego/Narcissism
C) Slave to the status quo/Laziness
D) To look cool
E) Aren't actually atheists, just pretending to be so/Atheists don't actually exist

What follows is a general refutation of these points, an explanation as to why they are silly, as shown through a personal narrative of my life as an atheist.

I guess the real reasons vary from person to person.

I am an American and was born so. I was also born to parents who were Christian. By all accounts I should have been a theist myself. Our church attendence was infrequent, but regular - usually Christmas and Easter - but that is about it.

I honestly cannot empathize with this. I am not an American. By God's grace I was born to Muslim parents who pray to Allah at least five times everyday.

Despite being Christians, my parents (or at least my father) had a very open philosophy about religion, in that it should be something I chose to do myself. In that regard, it wasn't forced upon me. I wasn't baptised and I didn't have the Bible crammed down my throat. Regardless, even in this situation I probably should have ended up being a theist. I imagine many people consider themselves a Christian, even if it wasn't indoctrinated into them, simply through cultural absorbtion. Their Christianity is taken for granted, and assumed. Certainly I accepted it at this level, in the same vein that I once accepted Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, but eventually grew out of it.

That is not to say that I didn't seriously investigate the matter. I have, through my life, even recently, made several genuine and passionate attempts to discern, personally, the existence of some force out there. At times in my life I've pleaded, I've begged, I've demanded, I've bargained, I've done everything it has occurred to me to do, to try and initiate some form of communication, to discern some sort of sign that there was something out there, listening. The result? Nothing.

At this stage, all of the previous points identified above are hereby refuted, though this is not the end of my story. I have opened myself; I've looked and listened. My lack of becoming a Christian is, in this regard, a result of whatever being out there not taking the opportunity to accept me, as I've certainly offerred myself. It isn't a result of ego or some specific desire. I imagine that if some being had made itself known to me, I would have been thrilled.

It is quite apparent you are not making it up. However it is not very clear in what form you looked. It is also not clear what kind of signal you were waiting for.

I will just tell you a bit about the kind of signal I received in my life. I have got a voracious appetite for reading books. I have read a large number of books in Urdu and English. When I systematically started studying Quran in college, soon I realized it cannot be anything other than a book from Allah. The acceptance was so gradual that I cannot pinpoint a date or time when this happened. Though there were lots of changes within me. Once I accepted Quran, I started respecting The Holy Bible. Earlier I used to avoid listening to it (I did my schooling from a Christian missionary school). I also became interested in Hinduism. Earlier I used to think that learning about other religions will misguide me. With the help of Quran, I became confident that I will be able to identify the true elements from these books. There are lots of things appear illogical in The Holy Bible. However many of them do make sense once you ignore the part which conflicts with Quran.

There are lots of differences between us. I was attached to Quran since early childhood - even though I never understood it then. It is still possible that some of this may be useful in your search.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Ren
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7/30/2012 2:51:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 2:00:26 PM, drafterman wrote:

I'll consider this a rough draft, at best. Maybe you should work out some revisions in your head. Jot it down. Maybe add some amateur drawings to go with it. Come back when you've got something a bit more... robust. Something that isn't so obvious and superficial.

LoL! Well, that's interesting.

I don't know, you're willing to concede to a lot there already... it's pretty hard to get at someone who already hates themselves. But, you're right, fine, I'll give it a try...

Hmmm... Well, you are ridiculous, clearly, you're rotund... let me scribble something down and see what I come up with.

Okay, how's this? http://gainen.deviantart.com...

I was expecting some sort of hard hitting psychoanalysis. Something that cut right to the meat of the matter, tearing away this facade you imagine I've put up and lay me bare, exposed and vulnerable, weeping in a pile of my own tears.

Well... hrm... alright...

It must really aggravate you to know that behind an anonymous handle that clearly intimidates you, there's someone who is actually confident and comfortable with who they are; someone that's likely in a relationship you could never possibly have with a woman of the likes that you would touch only in your masturbatory fantasies... clearly, that I'm someone who does not derive his self-security from here (as you clearly do), nor am I someone who preys on another's emotions as a means to somehow establish some faux superiority, since this is clearly your only means of some semblance of a social life, which existing on the internet, as does your occuppation and hobbies. Accordingly, you probably question whether you're real at all, whistfully watching children play and wondering whether your bloated and atrophied physical failure could possibly muster even a fraction of that energy after having existed solely on a recent technological contrivance for God know's how long, and generally appreciating that anyway, as your self-loathing has resulted in a mild case of agoraphobia.

Lol, I'll bet if I'm not spot on, I'm ridiculously close.

kthxbai.
drafterman
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7/30/2012 3:14:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 2:51:11 PM, Ren wrote:
At 7/30/2012 2:00:26 PM, drafterman wrote:

I'll consider this a rough draft, at best. Maybe you should work out some revisions in your head. Jot it down. Maybe add some amateur drawings to go with it. Come back when you've got something a bit more... robust. Something that isn't so obvious and superficial.

LoL! Well, that's interesting.

I don't know, you're willing to concede to a lot there already... it's pretty hard to get at someone who already hates themselves. But, you're right, fine, I'll give it a try...

Hmmm... Well, you are ridiculous, clearly, you're rotund... let me scribble something down and see what I come up with.

Okay, how's this? http://gainen.deviantart.com...

I was expecting some sort of hard hitting psychoanalysis. Something that cut right to the meat of the matter, tearing away this facade you imagine I've put up and lay me bare, exposed and vulnerable, weeping in a pile of my own tears.

Well... hrm... alright...

It must really aggravate you to know that behind an anonymous handle that clearly intimidates you, there's someone who is actually confident and comfortable with who they are; someone that's likely in a relationship you could never possibly have with a woman of the likes that you would touch only in your masturbatory fantasies... clearly, that I'm someone who does not derive his self-security from here (as you clearly do), nor am I someone who preys on another's emotions as a means to somehow establish some faux superiority, since this is clearly your only means of some semblance of a social life, which existing on the internet, as does your occuppation and hobbies. Accordingly, you probably question whether you're real at all, whistfully watching children play and wondering whether your bloated and atrophied physical failure could possibly muster even a fraction of that energy after having existed solely on a recent technological contrivance for God know's how long, and generally appreciating that anyway, as your self-loathing has resulted in a mild case of agoraphobia.

Lol, I'll bet if I'm not spot on, I'm ridiculously close.

kthxbai.

You see, when I suggested you take time, I meant in the sense of refining and developing some depth to your rhetoric here. It seems you squandered it seeing how many cliches you could cram in a single post.

Notably you missed allusions to me being a virgin, living in a basement, and with my mother. Tsk. Those are the obvious ones (and you certainly aren't trying to be subtle!)

It also decidedly lacks specifics, which you really need if you are going to make any headway where. Obviously build on physical insecurities. Maybe some references to acne, greasy hair, bad breath, poor hygiene.

Ultimately, the turn for the surreal (questioning my own reality) didn't quite work out. You see, that requires real talent, or at least practice. I'd see FREEDO in that regard, since he has copious amounts of both. However, the change in tact is somewhat jarring, so I'd suggest you pick a theme and stick to it.

We'll call this "Version 1.0"

Might want to create a revision table to keep track. I can see we'll be at this a while before we come up with something workable.
Ren
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7/30/2012 3:29:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 3:14:17 PM, drafterman wrote:

Awww, c'mon, the cartoon didn't even make you giggle?

Sigh.

Well, in any case, I thought this was going to be some sort of match of The Dozens. Not some assisted self-flaggelation.

Really, I don't even dislike you. It isn't even fun. I have nothing to say about you that I haven't already said to you (aside the last two, which were mostly contrived), because I don't really know you. You're just some guy, Drafterman, with a funny avatar, who likes Mafia, and doesn't like Christianity. Oh, and who programs as an occupation, which I have to admit, I rather respect.

So, I don't know what you're looking for, Drafter -- I really have nothing against you. Just grow up, bud. Stop being such a sensitive little pantiebear and play nice with others. ^_^