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Belief and the problems with Christianity

EvanK
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7/29/2012 9:29:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Belief-"A state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing".

In this case, we're talking about an idea, a specific religion, Christianity.

It is taught by a lot of Christians that you must believe in God to enter heaven. But how do you believe? As the definition states, it is a state of mind. Normally, belief is the result of facts and evidence and careful thought. For example, I believe in evolution, due to the overwhelming evidence. However, there isn't any overwhelming evidence for Christianity, (or any other organized religion for that matter, in my opinion) and so I do not believe. Does this mean I am going to hell?

Just to clarify, a few of my many, many reasons for disbelief are:

1(There are many religions, many branches of Christianity.The market is over flooded with religions, as anyone can start up there own religion. Furthermore, there have been plenty of other religions before Christianity.

2(Judaism is wrong, because the God in the old testament is a violent, angry, unforgiving prick (creates the mankind, wipes out large numbers of mankind despite being a loving and forgiving God), and since Christianity is just Judaism fulfilled, it is wrong. Oh, and that is only one reason I believe Judaism is wrong. I have others.

3(Evolution. I believe that if the bible is the one true word of God, and if the bible teaches creationism, then the beliefs of Christianity (technically Judaism) are creationism. If they have to modify their beliefs, then the beliefs weren't the truth to begin with, in my opinion.

4(Religion is man made. Man, a flawed species, created religion, including Christianity. Naturally there are flaws in Christianity, and religion in general. But wouldn't the word of a supreme Deity be flawless? Why would he put the job of spreading his word into the hands of humans?

All this, and much more. I'm actually planning a debate within the next few weeks.

Moving on...

Then, there are those who teach that non-believers do not, in fact, go to hell, but if you are a good person, then you can enter heaven, even if you are an atheist. But there are a few problems with this.

First off, the very first commandment requires the belief in God, only that God, none other, I'm assuming disbelief included. However: 1(The 10 commandments are Jewish. 2(Catholics teach that breaking the 10 commandments, any one of them, is a mortal sin, punishable by hell. But belief is a state of mind, a state of mind only evidence can put me in. So, are the 10 commandments wrong in saying that I must believe to go to heaven? Which bears more weight? My loyalty towards an invisible sky wizard, or my actions toward fellow man?

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life? But Christianity doesn't teach that. You have to believe in God, you have to go to church, or you'll go to hell. But what if I don't believe? Do I go to hell?

There's an obvious problem here. Would a loving God send a person to hell, even though he doesn't reveal himself in an obvious way, leaving it up to humans, flawed people, to both spread his word, and try and figure out if it's the truth or not? And if I use my "God given" ability to think, but conclude it is wrong, I go to hell, burning in a lake of fire for eternity? Would a loving God do this?

What are your thoughts?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Jessalyn
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7/29/2012 9:40:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A loving god, no. But judging by the Old Testament, the Christian god is FAR from a loving one. I'd rather live the way I see fit and believe what I do than impose such a hateful and malevolent entity upon myself and end up forced to spend eternity with him anyway. I'd much rather go to "Hell" and burn than go to "Heaven" and be with such a horrible god.
WARNING: Hitchslaps may become inflamed when accompanied by unceasing stupidity.
EvanK
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7/29/2012 9:43:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 9:40:09 PM, Jessalyn wrote:
A loving god, no. But judging by the Old Testament, the Christian god is FAR from a loving one. I'd rather live the way I see fit and believe what I do than impose such a hateful and malevolent entity upon myself and end up forced to spend eternity with him anyway. I'd much rather go to "Hell" and burn than go to "Heaven" and be with such a horrible god.

Not only "be with" but spend eternity worshipping. Doesn't sound like paradise to me...
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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7/29/2012 9:44:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 9:40:09 PM, Jessalyn wrote:
A loving god, no. But judging by the Old Testament, the Christian god is FAR from a loving one. I'd rather live the way I see fit and believe what I do than impose such a hateful and malevolent entity upon myself and end up forced to spend eternity with him anyway. I'd much rather go to "Hell" and burn than go to "Heaven" and be with such a horrible god.

I've heard that a lot. I wonder how long you could hold your hand over a candle.
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phantom
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7/29/2012 9:52:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 9:40:09 PM, Jessalyn wrote:
A loving god, no. But judging by the Old Testament, the Christian god is FAR from a loving one. I'd rather live the way I see fit and believe what I do than impose such a hateful and malevolent entity upon myself and end up forced to spend eternity with him anyway. I'd much rather go to "Hell" and burn than go to "Heaven" and be with such a horrible god.

That's absurd.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
SuburbiaSurvivor
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7/29/2012 9:59:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 9:29:47 PM, EvanK wrote:
Belief-"A state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing".

In this case, we're talking about an idea, a specific religion, Christianity.

It is taught by a lot of Christians that you must believe in God to enter heaven. But how do you believe? As the definition states, it is a state of mind. Normally, belief is the result of facts and evidence and careful thought. For example, I believe in evolution, due to the overwhelming evidence. However, there isn't any overwhelming evidence for Christianity, (or any other organized religion for that matter, in my opinion) and so I do not believe. Does this mean I am going to hell?

Just to clarify, a few of my many, many reasons for disbelief are:

1) Your argument presupposes a sort of hard determinism, in that you believe because there is evidence for something, but you have no choice to disbelieve it. Everyone chooses what they believe.

2) The idea of "overwhelming" evidence is rather arbitrary. You say you believe in evolution because there is overwhelming evidence for it, but I would contend that there really isn't. Even if there is enough evidence to convince some, the lack of observed mutations increasing structural complexity and the lack of transitional fossils reveals a lack of "overwhelming" evidence.

Similarly, there are myriads of arguments for God's existence, and there are millions of testimonies of divine experiences. I myself have experienced some amazing things that defy the laws of nature.

1(There are many religions, many branches of Christianity.The market is over flooded with religions, as anyone can start up there own religion. Furthermore, there have been plenty of other religions before Christianity.

The only religions with a significant following are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism.

2(Judaism is wrong, because the God in the old testament is a violent, angry, unforgiving prick (creates the mankind, wipes out large numbers of mankind despite being a loving and forgiving God), and since Christianity is just Judaism fulfilled, it is wrong. Oh, and that is only one reason I believe Judaism is wrong. I have others.

Why am I not surprised that Christopher Hitchens is in your profile picture? Lol, It doesn't seem all that hard to think of a morally sufficient reason for killing large groups of people. Would you object to killing a large number of nazis?

3(Evolution. I believe that if the bible is the one true word of God, and if the bible teaches creationism, then the beliefs of Christianity (technically Judaism) are creationism. If they have to modify their beliefs, then the beliefs weren't the truth to begin with, in my opinion.

I don't believe in evolution, but even before evolution was a legitimate theory, bible scholars concluded that the bible's account of creation could be taken metaphorically. Believing in evolution is not required of a Christian.

4(Religion is man made. Man, a flawed species, created religion, including Christianity. Naturally there are flaws in Christianity, and religion in general. But wouldn't the word of a supreme Deity be flawless? Why would he put the job of spreading his word into the hands of humans?

So you believe religion is false because you're presupposing that it's man-made?

All this, and much more. I'm actually planning a debate within the next few weeks.

Moving on...

Then, there are those who teach that non-believers do not, in fact, go to hell, but if you are a good person, then you can enter heaven, even if you are an atheist. But there are a few problems with this.

First off, the very first commandment requires the belief in God, only that God, none other, I'm assuming disbelief included. However: 1(The 10 commandments are Jewish. 2(Catholics teach that breaking the 10 commandments, any one of them, is a mortal sin, punishable by hell. But belief is a state of mind, a state of mind only evidence can put me in. So, are the 10 commandments wrong in saying that I must believe to go to heaven? Which bears more weight? My loyalty towards an invisible sky wizard, or my actions toward fellow man?

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life? But Christianity doesn't teach that. You have to believe in God, you have to go to church, or you'll go to hell. But what if I don't believe? Do I go to hell?

There's an obvious problem here. Would a loving God send a person to hell, even though he doesn't reveal himself in an obvious way, leaving it up to humans, flawed people, to both spread his word, and try and figure out if it's the truth or not? And if I use my "God given" ability to think, but conclude it is wrong, I go to hell, burning in a lake of fire for eternity? Would a loving God do this?

What are your thoughts?

Agreed with the last bit.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/29/2012 10:15:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 9:59:17 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
1) Your argument presupposes a sort of hard determinism, in that you believe because there is evidence for something, but you have no choice to disbelieve it. Everyone chooses what they believe.

I can choose to lie to myself in order to believe in Christianity, but it doesn't make sense in my brain, so I wouldnt really be believing, now would I?

2) The idea of "overwhelming" evidence is rather arbitrary. You say you believe in evolution because there is overwhelming evidence for it, but I would contend that there really isn't. Even if there is enough evidence to convince some, the lack of observed mutations increasing structural complexity and the lack of transitional fossils reveals a lack of "overwhelming" evidence.

There is plenty of evidence. Read up on it. It is a very drawn out system. It took us billions of years to get where we are today. It should come as no suprise we haven't observed it.


Similarly, there are myriads of arguments for God's existence, and there are millions of testimonies of divine experiences. I myself have experienced some amazing things that defy the laws of nature.

Well, that's you, not me. You're a stranger, so no offense, but your testimony of a "divine experience" means nothing to me.

The only religions with a significant following are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism.

The only ones with a significant following today. Go back a few thousand years, and it's another story.

Why am I not surprised that Christopher Hitchens is in your profile picture? Lol, It doesn't seem all that hard to think of a morally sufficient reason for killing large groups of people. Would you object to killing a large number of nazis?

Morally sufficient? I have my guidlines for "moral sufficiency" and God gave his. He is an all loving God (supposedly) who forgives our sins, and denounces murder, and yet murdered large numbers during the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the passover, etc. The difference is humans are a flawed species, God isn't. So I cannot see how a divine father figure justifies killing innocent people. Would I support killing a large number of Nazi's? No.

I don't believe in evolution, but even before evolution was a legitimate theory, bible scholars concluded that the bible's account of creation could be taken metaphorically. Believing in evolution is not required of a Christian.

Catholicism embraced evolution.

And if creationism is to be taken metaphorically, why provide it? Because, back then, it was the only explanation. The valiantly strived for the truth, and this is the result. But it is far from being considered the truth. And so today, most are dropping creationism as the truth, and instead call it a metaphore.

So you believe religion is false because you're presupposing that it's man-made?

Presupposing? I am stating. There is evidence of Paleolithic religion. It has been around for a very long time, longer than the Earth has been around, according to Christianity.


All this, and much more. I'm actually planning a debate within the next few weeks.

Moving on...

Then, there are those who teach that non-believers do not, in fact, go to hell, but if you are a good person, then you can enter heaven, even if you are an atheist. But there are a few problems with this.

First off, the very first commandment requires the belief in God, only that God, none other, I'm assuming disbelief included. However: 1(The 10 commandments are Jewish. 2(Catholics teach that breaking the 10 commandments, any one of them, is a mortal sin, punishable by hell. But belief is a state of mind, a state of mind only evidence can put me in. So, are the 10 commandments wrong in saying that I must believe to go to heaven? Which bears more weight? My loyalty towards an invisible sky wizard, or my actions toward fellow man?

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life? But Christianity doesn't teach that. You have to believe in God, you have to go to church, or you'll go to hell. But what if I don't believe? Do I go to hell?

There's an obvious problem here. Would a loving God send a person to hell, even though he doesn't reveal himself in an obvious way, leaving it up to humans, flawed people, to both spread his word, and try and figure out if it's the truth or not? And if I use my "God given" ability to think, but conclude it is wrong, I go to hell, burning in a lake of fire for eternity? Would a loving God do this?

What are your thoughts?

Agreed with the last bit.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/29/2012 10:28:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'll get around to this sometime since you seem to be genuinely and sincerely questioning but I'll just respond to this real quick. This, of course, isn't a comprehensive response.

At 7/29/2012 9:29:47 PM, EvanK wrote:

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life?

I'd riposte: supposing that there is no afterlife and that life ends when our bodily integrity does, what would be the point of religious folk deconverting and incorporating all that non-religious stuff into their lives? Why can't they just be good people and throw out all that non-religious nonsense and live their life if both believers and non-believers are "destined" to the same lot in death?

The obvious answer a non-religious person would give would be the value of that would be knowing the truth about religious claims (that they're false ex hypothesi). And my answer would be "exactly". Why can't they just answer your query in an analogous manner?

Of course, this opens up side questions about why one should value knowing the truth - is it good in of itself to know the truth regardless of the pragmatic considerations? -and all that but that's besides the issue.
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EvanK
Posts: 599
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7/29/2012 10:37:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 10:28:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'll get around to this sometime since you seem to be genuinely and sincerely questioning but I'll just respond to this real quick. This, of course, isn't a comprehensive response.

At 7/29/2012 9:29:47 PM, EvanK wrote:

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life?

I'd riposte: supposing that there is no afterlife and that life ends when our bodily integrity does, what would be the point of religious folk deconverting and incorporating all that non-religious stuff into their lives? Why can't they just be good people and throw out all that non-religious nonsense and live their life if both believers and non-believers are "destined" to the same lot in death?

Because, non-religious stuff requires nothing in the way of faith. Religion,specifically Christianity, requires the belief, bordering on blind faith, on a creator and all of the teachings about the creator, found in the bible, some of which I despise. I do believe the Jesus, in whatever form, had some good, even great, moral ideas, but that doesn't prove any divinity or that I should worship him.

Why can't they just be good people, and live their life if both believers and non believers have the same destination? Never said they couldn't. I'm asking why I should believe in Christianity, though? As I said, I don't believe for a good reason. I don't "see" God, but deny him. I really and truely doubt Christianity, and even God himself sometimes. But that is due to my design, not me being wicked. Why should I go to hell then?


The obvious answer a non-religious person would give would be the value of that would be knowing the truth about religious claims (that they're false ex hypothesi). And my answer would be "exactly". Why can't they just answer your query in an analogous manner?

Of course, this opens up side questions about why one should value knowing the truth - is it good in of itself to know the truth regardless of the pragmatic considerations? -and all that but that's besides the issue.

Humans strive to know the truth about everything. We are curious creatures. So are monkeys, our close ancestors. It's just the way we are.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
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7/29/2012 10:38:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 10:20:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:


If I ever have an hour to spare, I'll give it a try. Or perhaps you could sum it up?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/29/2012 10:40:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 10:38:05 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/29/2012 10:20:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:


If I ever have an hour to spare, I'll give it a try. Or perhaps you could sum it up?

It gives a lot of common sense and historical evidence that supports the Christian faith. It makes you think about a lot of stuff.

I can't really sum it up because it's a lot of evidence and historical testimony.

I thought it was really good.
popculturepooka
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7/29/2012 10:48:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 10:37:32 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/29/2012 10:28:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'll get around to this sometime since you seem to be genuinely and sincerely questioning but I'll just respond to this real quick. This, of course, isn't a comprehensive response.

At 7/29/2012 9:29:47 PM, EvanK wrote:

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life?

I'd riposte: supposing that there is no afterlife and that life ends when our bodily integrity does, what would be the point of religious folk deconverting and incorporating all that non-religious stuff into their lives? Why can't they just be good people and throw out all that non-religious nonsense and live their life if both believers and non-believers are "destined" to the same lot in death?

Because, non-religious stuff requires nothing in the way of faith. Religion,specifically Christianity, requires the belief, bordering on blind faith, on a creator and all of the teachings about the creator, found in the bible, some of which I despise. I do believe the Jesus, in whatever form, had some good, even great, moral ideas, but that doesn't prove any divinity or that I should worship him.

Why can't they just be good people, and live their life if both believers and non believers have the same destination? Never said they couldn't. I'm asking why I should believe in Christianity, though? As I said, I don't believe for a good reason.
I don't "see" God, but deny him. I really and truely doubt Christianity, and even God himself sometimes. But that is due to my design, not me being wicked. Why should I go to hell then?



You're entirely missing the point of my response. Your question was is "the point" of religion is believers and non-believers can have the same destination. I illustrated that by asking an analogous question of the non-religious a very easy - and seemingly correct - answer becomes apparent: knowing the truth. Certainly many non-reilgious people seem to think this answer works if one values the truth (as most people do and should). The religious could avail themselves of the same answer. The "point" of religion would be as a vehicle to knowing the truth.

The obvious answer a non-religious person would give would be the value of that would be knowing the truth about religious claims (that they're false ex hypothesi). And my answer would be "exactly". Why can't they just answer your query in an analogous manner?

Of course, this opens up side questions about why one should value knowing the truth - is it good in of itself to know the truth regardless of the pragmatic considerations? -and all that but that's besides the issue.

Humans strive to know the truth about everything. We are curious creatures. So are monkeys, our close ancestors. It's just the way we are.

And this again misses the point. But like I said, that really isn't relevant (much) to what I was talking about.
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SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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7/29/2012 11:45:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 10:15:47 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/29/2012 9:59:17 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
1) Your argument presupposes a sort of hard determinism, in that you believe because there is evidence for something, but you have no choice to disbelieve it. Everyone chooses what they believe.

I can choose to lie to myself in order to believe in Christianity, but it doesn't make sense in my brain, so I wouldnt really be believing, now would I?

You only lie to yourself if you've already chosen to believe the thing you're attempting to deny, or visa versa.

2) The idea of "overwhelming" evidence is rather arbitrary. You say you believe in evolution because there is overwhelming evidence for it, but I would contend that there really isn't. Even if there is enough evidence to convince some, the lack of observed mutations increasing structural complexity and the lack of transitional fossils reveals a lack of "overwhelming" evidence.

There is plenty of evidence. Read up on it. It is a very drawn out system. It took us billions of years to get where we are today. It should come as no suprise we haven't observed it.

You have no idea how much I want to be condescending right now xD Yes, I know it's a drawn out system. But the fact that we have literally NEVER observed a mutation that has increased structural complexity in a biological organism is a huge problem for evolution. Think of it this way, evolution requires certain biological steps to be possible, right? From there, you ascertain the probability of those steps. But BEFORE ascertaining the probability of those steps, you must first establish that those steps are actually possible. You need more bricks to turn a house into a skyscraper, and you need increased structural complexity to turn an amoeba into a man. So you know how you don't believe in God because of a lack of evidence? Well the same goes for me and evolution ;) (Not really, that's an argument from ignorance, but it's close)

Similarly, there are myriads of arguments for God's existence, and there are millions of testimonies of divine experiences. I myself have experienced some amazing things that defy the laws of nature.

Well, that's you, not me. You're a stranger, so no offense, but your testimony of a "divine experience" means nothing to me.

Case and point. Though you did ignore my comment about all of the philosophical arguments for God's existence/Christianity.

The only religions with a significant following are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism.

The only ones with a significant following today. Go back a few thousand years, and it's another story.

And?

Why am I not surprised that Christopher Hitchens is in your profile picture? Lol, It doesn't seem all that hard to think of a morally sufficient reason for killing large groups of people. Would you object to killing a large number of nazis?

Morally sufficient? I have my guidlines for "moral sufficiency" and God gave his. He is an all loving God (supposedly) who forgives our sins, and denounces murder, and yet murdered large numbers during the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the passover, etc. The difference is humans are a flawed species, God isn't. So I cannot see how a divine father figure justifies killing innocent people. Would I support killing a large number of Nazi's? No.

So your subjective perception of morality is supposed to be superior to God's? ;) There's a difference between killing and murder, Holmes. If killing Hitler meant saving a million Jews, would you do it?

I don't believe in evolution, but even before evolution was a legitimate theory, bible scholars concluded that the bible's account of creation could be taken metaphorically. Believing in evolution is not required of a Christian.

Catholicism embraced evolution.

And?

And if creationism is to be taken metaphorically, why provide it? Because, back then, it was the only explanation. The valiantly strived for the truth, and this is the result. But it is far from being considered the truth. And so today, most are dropping creationism as the truth, and instead call it a metaphore.

Why provide what? It's incidental, really. The sheer improbability of evolution speaks of divine guidance anyway. Many, including myself, stick to a literal interpretation of Genesis, but even St. Augustine noted that Genesis didn't need to be taken literally. Like I said, it's incidental.

So you believe religion is false because you're presupposing that it's man-made?

Presupposing? I am stating. There is evidence of Paleolithic religion. It has been around for a very long time, longer than the Earth has been around, according to Christianity.

There is evidence of Paleolithic religion? Huh? Are you saying that Christianity is a derivative of Paleolithic religions? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. You haven't yet proven that Christianity is man-made. Are you trying to show similarities between greek mythology and Christianity? Horus and all that?

Hey! Do you believe in abiogenesis?
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
DATCMOTO
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7/30/2012 9:13:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 9:29:47 PM, EvanK wrote:
Belief-"A state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing".

In this case, we're talking about an idea, a specific religion, Christianity.

It is taught by a lot of Christians that you must believe in God to enter heaven. But how do you believe? As the definition states, it is a state of mind. Normally, belief is the result of facts and evidence and careful thought. For example, I believe in evolution, due to the overwhelming evidence. However, there isn't any overwhelming evidence for Christianity, (or any other organized religion for that matter, in my opinion) and so I do not believe. Does this mean I am going to hell?

Just to clarify, a few of my many, many reasons for disbelief are:

1(There are many religions, many branches of Christianity.The market is over flooded with religions, as anyone can start up there own religion. Furthermore, there have been plenty of other religions before Christianity.

2(Judaism is wrong, because the God in the old testament is a violent, angry, unforgiving prick (creates the mankind, wipes out large numbers of mankind despite being a loving and forgiving God), and since Christianity is just Judaism fulfilled, it is wrong. Oh, and that is only one reason I believe Judaism is wrong. I have others.

3(Evolution. I believe that if the bible is the one true word of God, and if the bible teaches creationism, then the beliefs of Christianity (technically Judaism) are creationism. If they have to modify their beliefs, then the beliefs weren't the truth to begin with, in my opinion.

4(Religion is man made. Man, a flawed species, created religion, including Christianity. Naturally there are flaws in Christianity, and religion in general. But wouldn't the word of a supreme Deity be flawless? Why would he put the job of spreading his word into the hands of humans?

All this, and much more. I'm actually planning a debate within the next few weeks.

Moving on...

Then, there are those who teach that non-believers do not, in fact, go to hell, but if you are a good person, then you can enter heaven, even if you are an atheist. But there are a few problems with this.

First off, the very first commandment requires the belief in God, only that God, none other, I'm assuming disbelief included. However: 1(The 10 commandments are Jewish. 2(Catholics teach that breaking the 10 commandments, any one of them, is a mortal sin, punishable by hell. But belief is a state of mind, a state of mind only evidence can put me in. So, are the 10 commandments wrong in saying that I must believe to go to heaven? Which bears more weight? My loyalty towards an invisible sky wizard, or my actions toward fellow man?

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life? But Christianity doesn't teach that. You have to believe in God, you have to go to church, or you'll go to hell. But what if I don't believe? Do I go to hell?

There's an obvious problem here. Would a loving God send a person to hell, even though he doesn't reveal himself in an obvious way, leaving it up to humans, flawed people, to both spread his word, and try and figure out if it's the truth or not? And if I use my "God given" ability to think, but conclude it is wrong, I go to hell, burning in a lake of fire for eternity? Would a loving God do this?

What are your thoughts?

Faith is a GIFT. (free NOT earned)

I believe Jesus is the Son of God because because He has chosen me to believe it; which means I do not judge those who have not recieved this gift.
The Cross.. the Cross.
stubs
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7/30/2012 12:27:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 9:52:41 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/29/2012 9:40:09 PM, Jessalyn wrote:
A loving god, no. But judging by the Old Testament, the Christian god is FAR from a loving one. I'd rather live the way I see fit and believe what I do than impose such a hateful and malevolent entity upon myself and end up forced to spend eternity with him anyway. I'd much rather go to "Hell" and burn than go to "Heaven" and be with such a horrible god.

That's absurd.
Hawkins
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7/30/2012 2:56:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A God either wants human followers or He doesn't. If He doesn't then it's no point for humans to believe Him or to worship Him because He never demands your belief/worship. It makes not much difference to say that He doesn't exist as His existence has nothing to do with humans.

On the other hand, if a God wants human followers, then He must do at least 2 things. First, He must leave humans with an infallible reference for humans to follow. Or else humans don't even know who God is, not to speak following Him. Second He must assign an earthly authority as the keeper of this infallible reference in order to carry forward this reference through out human history. Or else, anyone can come up to claim that he has the genuine reference.

Moreover, because it is an earthly authority it is thus corruptible and must be re-assignable.

It happens that Christianity is such a religion (perhaps the only one) claimed to have such an infallible reference called the Bible and this Bible always goes with an earthly authority. Though this earthly authority shifted from the Jews to the Catholics till the Protestants, canonically they are keeping the same exact OT and with the Catholics and Protestants sharing the same NT.
Hawkins
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7/30/2012 3:14:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A good shepherd kills wolves for the best interests of his sheep. The sheep will be jeopardized if the shepherd chooses to love the wolves as well.

The Bible says that the angels sinned and thus left God. After leaving God they turned themselves into the devils. God thus will burn them into the Lake of Fire. For the same reason, God is going to burn the same devils, whether they are originally humans or angels, as they will have to turn themselves into the devils and demons. It is because God is the only source of good.

We trust that God will do whatever necessary for the best interests of His sheep. So if the burning of the devils and demons serving such a purpose so be it. We don't have the intelligence to question God what will be the best for running an eternal universe/multiverse.
Hawkins
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7/30/2012 3:24:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Genesis hinted that when humans cling on the Tree of Knowledge to rely on their intelligence, they'll be doomed. As human intelligence is known to be limited. It is for this survival of this reality but not the next. You need faith to deal with your next reality.

Tree of Knowledge:
The day you eat of it, the same day you shall surely die.

Morever, everyone has a religion. The difference is only that whether you realize that you have a religion or not. To surface your faith/religion, please answer the following question.

Question:
Does afterlife exist?

Religious people will answer "yes", as this is part of their faith/religion.
Non-religious people will answer "no", as this is part their faith/religion.
A neutral answer is "I don't know", but this answer doesn't hold unless you don't care about your own life.

You don't have a religion simply because you have faith the nothing will happen after death. Your this faith is so strong that you don't feel need of a religion. But your this faith is actually your religion which you yourself failed to realize.
EvanK
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7/30/2012 4:39:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 10:48:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/29/2012 10:37:32 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 7/29/2012 10:28:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'll get around to this sometime since you seem to be genuinely and sincerely questioning but I'll just respond to this real quick. This, of course, isn't a comprehensive response.

At 7/29/2012 9:29:47 PM, EvanK wrote:

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life?

I'd riposte: supposing that there is no afterlife and that life ends when our bodily integrity does, what would be the point of religious folk deconverting and incorporating all that non-religious stuff into their lives? Why can't they just be good people and throw out all that non-religious nonsense and live their life if both believers and non-believers are "destined" to the same lot in death?

Because, non-religious stuff requires nothing in the way of faith. Religion,specifically Christianity, requires the belief, bordering on blind faith, on a creator and all of the teachings about the creator, found in the bible, some of which I despise. I do believe the Jesus, in whatever form, had some good, even great, moral ideas, but that doesn't prove any divinity or that I should worship him.

Why can't they just be good people, and live their life if both believers and non believers have the same destination? Never said they couldn't. I'm asking why I should believe in Christianity, though? As I said, I don't believe for a good reason.
I don't "see" God, but deny him. I really and truely doubt Christianity, and even God himself sometimes. But that is due to my design, not me being wicked. Why should I go to hell then?



You're entirely missing the point of my response. Your question was is "the point" of religion is believers and non-believers can have the same destination. I illustrated that by asking an analogous question of the non-religious a very easy - and seemingly correct - answer becomes apparent: knowing the truth. Certainly many non-reilgious people seem to think this answer works if one values the truth (as most people do and should). The religious could avail themselves of the same answer. The "point" of religion would be as a vehicle to knowing the truth.

Sorry if I missed your point. I agree that religion can be used as a vehicle towards the truth, but my point is that the religion is wrong.


The obvious answer a non-religious person would give would be the value of that would be knowing the truth about religious claims (that they're false ex hypothesi). And my answer would be "exactly". Why can't they just answer your query in an analogous manner?

Of course, this opens up side questions about why one should value knowing the truth - is it good in of itself to know the truth regardless of the pragmatic considerations? -and all that but that's besides the issue.

Humans strive to know the truth about everything. We are curious creatures. So are monkeys, our close ancestors. It's just the way we are.

And this again misses the point. But like I said, that really isn't relevant (much) to what I was talking about.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
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7/30/2012 5:02:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 11:45:11 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
You only lie to yourself if you've already chosen to believe the thing you're attempting to deny, or visa versa.

I chose to believe in Catholicism, but saw it as false. I cannot force myself to believe right now. If I did, I'd be lying. So, I did choose to believe it for a while, actually I was brought up as a Catholic, but I no longer believe. Doesn't mean I'm lying to myself by disbelieving, though. If I said I believed, I would be lying.

You have no idea how much I want to be condescending right now xD Yes, I know it's a drawn out system. But the fact that we have literally NEVER observed a mutation that has increased structural complexity in a biological organism is a huge problem for evolution. Think of it this way, evolution requires certain biological steps to be possible, right? From there, you ascertain the probability of those steps. But BEFORE ascertaining the probability of those steps, you must first establish that those steps are actually possible. You need more bricks to turn a house into a skyscraper, and you need increased structural complexity to turn an amoeba into a man.

Only difference is, houses and skyscrapers aren't alive, and are incapable of changing on their own. If they break, we must fix them. Our bodies can change and heal themselves because they are alive.

So you know how you don't believe in God because of a lack of evidence? Well the same goes for me and evolution ;) (Not really, that's an argument from ignorance, but it's close)

There's more evidence for evolution than creationism.

Case and point. Though you did ignore my comment about all of the philosophical arguments for God's existence/Christianity.

I didn't mean to ignore those arguments. All I can say is, every side has their own "experts", so you will get "holy" people claiming divine experiences. None of these prove God. As for the philosophical arguments, I have very many philosophical reasons for denying. Far too many to list here.

And?

And what? You mention that those are the only religions with a significant following. However, go back a few millenia, Greek, Roman and Egyptian ideas on God ruled the time. Also the Chinese and Indians. It's always changing. Doesn't mean Christianity is true.

So your subjective perception of morality is supposed to be superior to God's? ;) There's a difference between killing and murder, Holmes. If killing Hitler meant saving a million Jews, would you do it?

My subjective perception of morality is superior to the Old testament God's, yes. And the New testament God depends on the former, so yes, my perception is better, in my opinion. Yes, there is a difference between killing and murdering, but you asked if I would support killing Nazis, which I wouldn't. Not all Nazis are/were killers. Doesn't mean I support Nazis, but I don't support mass murder. I would support killing Hitler if it meant saving a million Jews, even one Jew. The killing of innocent shouldn't be supported, especially by a supreme being.

And?

It is now accepted by Catholics. So now, they believe the story of Creationism is wrong, despite being taught as the truth for 2000 years. So much for eternal doctorine...

Why provide what? It's incidental, really. The sheer improbability of evolution speaks of divine guidance anyway. Many, including myself, stick to a literal interpretation of Genesis, but even St. Augustine noted that Genesis didn't need to be taken literally. Like I said, it's incidental.

Why provide the story of Creationism if it isn't the truth? Why is it in the bible? Because Christianity is man made, and since this was the only explanation of the beginning of the world, it was included and taught. However, now that it is becoming very obvious that this isn't the truth, to the point where the Church accepts it, then one has to ask, if the bible really is the word of God or not? And St Augustine doesn't speak on any authority, in my opinion. He offers an opinion, that it doesn't need to be taken literal, and yet it was, for a very long time. So his opinion doesn't really matter.

There is evidence of Paleolithic religion? Huh? Are you saying that Christianity is a derivative of Paleolithic religions? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. You haven't yet proven that Christianity is man-made. Are you trying to show similarities between greek mythology and Christianity? Horus and all that?

Hey! Do you believe in abiogenesis?

You asked if I'm stating religion is man made, which I am. Man created the idea of religion, and everything about it. Paleolithic religions show even tens of thousands of years ago, men were creating religions and worshipping deities. Why should Christianity be considered any different? And there are similarities between Christianity and Greek mythology, by the way. The story of Pandora, I believe there's a great flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh, virgin births, etc.

As for abiogenesis, I give it more weight than I do Christianity.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
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7/30/2012 5:04:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 9:13:50 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/29/2012 9:29:47 PM, EvanK wrote:
Belief-"A state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing".

In this case, we're talking about an idea, a specific religion, Christianity.

It is taught by a lot of Christians that you must believe in God to enter heaven. But how do you believe? As the definition states, it is a state of mind. Normally, belief is the result of facts and evidence and careful thought. For example, I believe in evolution, due to the overwhelming evidence. However, there isn't any overwhelming evidence for Christianity, (or any other organized religion for that matter, in my opinion) and so I do not believe. Does this mean I am going to hell?

Just to clarify, a few of my many, many reasons for disbelief are:

1(There are many religions, many branches of Christianity.The market is over flooded with religions, as anyone can start up there own religion. Furthermore, there have been plenty of other religions before Christianity.

2(Judaism is wrong, because the God in the old testament is a violent, angry, unforgiving prick (creates the mankind, wipes out large numbers of mankind despite being a loving and forgiving God), and since Christianity is just Judaism fulfilled, it is wrong. Oh, and that is only one reason I believe Judaism is wrong. I have others.

3(Evolution. I believe that if the bible is the one true word of God, and if the bible teaches creationism, then the beliefs of Christianity (technically Judaism) are creationism. If they have to modify their beliefs, then the beliefs weren't the truth to begin with, in my opinion.

4(Religion is man made. Man, a flawed species, created religion, including Christianity. Naturally there are flaws in Christianity, and religion in general. But wouldn't the word of a supreme Deity be flawless? Why would he put the job of spreading his word into the hands of humans?

All this, and much more. I'm actually planning a debate within the next few weeks.

Moving on...

Then, there are those who teach that non-believers do not, in fact, go to hell, but if you are a good person, then you can enter heaven, even if you are an atheist. But there are a few problems with this.

First off, the very first commandment requires the belief in God, only that God, none other, I'm assuming disbelief included. However: 1(The 10 commandments are Jewish. 2(Catholics teach that breaking the 10 commandments, any one of them, is a mortal sin, punishable by hell. But belief is a state of mind, a state of mind only evidence can put me in. So, are the 10 commandments wrong in saying that I must believe to go to heaven? Which bears more weight? My loyalty towards an invisible sky wizard, or my actions toward fellow man?

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life? But Christianity doesn't teach that. You have to believe in God, you have to go to church, or you'll go to hell. But what if I don't believe? Do I go to hell?

There's an obvious problem here. Would a loving God send a person to hell, even though he doesn't reveal himself in an obvious way, leaving it up to humans, flawed people, to both spread his word, and try and figure out if it's the truth or not? And if I use my "God given" ability to think, but conclude it is wrong, I go to hell, burning in a lake of fire for eternity? Would a loving God do this?

What are your thoughts?

Faith is a GIFT. (free NOT earned)

I believe Jesus is the Son of God because because He has chosen me to believe it; which means I do not judge those who have not recieved this gift.

So God decides to give faith to certain people only? And if I don't ever receive this gift, I go to hell? Sounds like a real great guy, this God! :P
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
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7/30/2012 5:09:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 2:56:21 PM, Hawkins wrote:
A God either wants human followers or He doesn't. If He doesn't then it's no point for humans to believe Him or to worship Him because He never demands your belief/worship. It makes not much difference to say that He doesn't exist as His existence has nothing to do with humans.

Well, he doesn't make himself very obvious to us, so why should I worship a being on blind faith?


On the other hand, if a God wants human followers, then He must do at least 2 things. First, He must leave humans with an infallible reference for humans to follow. Or else humans don't even know who God is, not to speak following Him. Second He must assign an earthly authority as the keeper of this infallible reference in order to carry forward this reference through out human history. Or else, anyone can come up to claim that he has the genuine reference.

The bible is far from infallible, I must say. Secondly, the keepers of this "infallible" reference are almost more flawed than the reference they teach from.

"Or else, anyone can come up to claim that he has the genuine reference".

Doesn't this happen all over the place? Yes, it does.


Moreover, because it is an earthly authority it is thus corruptible and must be re-assignable.

It happens that Christianity is such a religion (perhaps the only one) claimed to have such an infallible reference called the Bible and this Bible always goes with an earthly authority. Though this earthly authority shifted from the Jews to the Catholics till the Protestants, canonically they are keeping the same exact OT and with the Catholics and Protestants sharing the same NT.

Judaism has the old testament, Islam has the Koran. Christianity isn't the only one with a holy book. By the way, while all three preach the OT, the OT is filled with hatred, violence, bigotry and lies. And it doesn't line up very well with the NT.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
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7/30/2012 5:11:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 3:14:28 PM, Hawkins wrote:
A good shepherd kills wolves for the best interests of his sheep. The sheep will be jeopardized if the shepherd chooses to love the wolves as well.

The Bible says that the angels sinned and thus left God. After leaving God they turned themselves into the devils. God thus will burn them into the Lake of Fire. For the same reason, God is going to burn the same devils, whether they are originally humans or angels, as they will have to turn themselves into the devils and demons. It is because God is the only source of good.

We trust that God will do whatever necessary for the best interests of His sheep. So if the burning of the devils and demons serving such a purpose so be it. We don't have the intelligence to question God what will be the best for running an eternal universe/multiverse.

Angels and demons don't mean as much to me, because I believe the bible is wrong.

And just because a shepherd kills wolves to protect his sheep doesn't justify the thousands of lives God took for no good reason. They really can't be compared.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
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7/30/2012 5:14:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 3:24:35 PM, Hawkins wrote:
Genesis hinted that when humans cling on the Tree of Knowledge to rely on their intelligence, they'll be doomed. As human intelligence is known to be limited. It is for this survival of this reality but not the next. You need faith to deal with your next reality.

Tree of Knowledge:
The day you eat of it, the same day you shall surely die.

So in other words, don't pay attention to the logic I provided you with, don't use the brain I gave you, listen to the illogical book I provide you, and you'll be ok. Doubt it for one second, though, and you'll be in big trouble. Sounds like a totalitarian government to me. Don't listen to logic, listen to me. Human intelligence has explained far more than religion has.


Morever, everyone has a religion. The difference is only that whether you realize that you have a religion or not. To surface your faith/religion, please answer the following question.

Question:
Does afterlife exist?

Religious people will answer "yes", as this is part of their faith/religion.
Non-religious people will answer "no", as this is part their faith/religion.
A neutral answer is "I don't know", but this answer doesn't hold unless you don't care about your own life.

You don't have a religion simply because you have faith the nothing will happen after death. Your this faith is so strong that you don't feel need of a religion. But your this faith is actually your religion which you yourself failed to realize.

I don't get your point? I have failed to realize my religion? I have none, I have no faith in Christianity. Now what?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Dan4reason
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7/30/2012 8:58:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/29/2012 9:29:47 PM, EvanK wrote:

It is taught by a lot of Christians that you must believe in God to enter heaven. But how do you believe? As the definition states, it is a state of mind. Normally, belief is the result of facts and evidence and careful thought. For example, I believe in evolution, due to the overwhelming evidence. However, there isn't any overwhelming evidence for Christianity, (or any other organized religion for that matter, in my opinion) and so I do not believe. Does this mean I am going to hell?

Some people cite, the evidence for the resurrection, fulfilled prophecies, miracle claims, spiritual experiences, and near death experiences as evidence for evolution. Even atheists believe many things with very little evidence. For example, you believe in many things based on the word of others.

Just to clarify, a few of my many, many reasons for disbelief are:

1(There are many religions, many branches of Christianity.The market is over flooded with religions, as anyone can start up there own religion. Furthermore, there have been plenty of other religions before Christianity.

There are also many different ideas of how evolution happened. Disagreement doesn't not disqualify anything. There are also many opinions on taxes, abortion, healthcare and the like. This does not mean that these opinions are wrong.

2(Judaism is wrong, because the God in the old testament is a violent, angry, unforgiving prick (creates the mankind, wipes out large numbers of mankind despite being a loving and forgiving God), and since Christianity is just Judaism fulfilled, it is wrong. Oh, and that is only one reason I believe Judaism is wrong. I have others.

Sometimes he is angry, and at others he is merciful. It depends on whether you obey him. He was the one who made you and gave you everything you have so you do owe him quite a bit.

3(Evolution. I believe that if the bible is the one true word of God, and if the bible teaches creationism, then the beliefs of Christianity (technically Judaism) are creationism. If they have to modify their beliefs, then the beliefs weren't the truth to begin with, in my opinion.

There are many ways to interpret genesis.

4(Religion is man made. Man, a flawed species, created religion, including Christianity. Naturally there are flaws in Christianity, and religion in general. But wouldn't the word of a supreme Deity be flawless? Why would he put the job of spreading his word into the hands of humans?

I think he wants this to be a learning experience for us. If he does everything for us, then how good of a parent would he be?

First off, the very first commandment requires the belief in God, only that God, none other, I'm assuming disbelief included. However: 1(The 10 commandments are Jewish. 2(Catholics teach that breaking the 10 commandments, any one of them, is a mortal sin, punishable by hell. But belief is a state of mind, a state of mind only evidence can put me in. So, are the 10 commandments wrong in saying that I must believe to go to heaven? Which bears more weight? My loyalty towards an invisible sky wizard, or my actions toward fellow man?

Well Jesus can forgive sins including breaking commandments.

Secondly, if it is possible for non believers to go to heaven, what is the point of religion? If they believe you just have be a good person, then why not throw out all of the religious nonsense, and live your life? But Christianity doesn't teach that. You have to believe in God, you have to go to church, or you'll go to hell. But what if I don't believe? Do I go to hell?

Maybe because people will do better if they know why they are here.

There's an obvious problem here. Would a loving God send a person to hell, even though he doesn't reveal himself in an obvious way, leaving it up to humans, flawed people, to both spread his word, and try and figure out if it's the truth or not? And if I use my "God given" ability to think, but conclude it is wrong, I go to hell, burning in a lake of fire for eternity? Would a loving God do this?

Burning in a lake of fire may be metaphorical. Hell may be a place of separation. I don't know that this life is necessarily the only opportunity we have to believe in God.
EvanK
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7/30/2012 9:30:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 8:58:31 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
Some people cite, the evidence for the resurrection, fulfilled prophecies, miracle claims, spiritual experiences, and near death experiences as evidence for evolution. Even atheists believe many things with very little evidence. For example, you believe in many things based on the word of others.

No evidence for the resurrection; fulfilled prophecies do not prove God, miracle CLAIMS mean absolutely nothing. There are claims that people have seen bigfoot. Should I believe in bigfoot? NDE are subjective, depending on the person. And none are evidence for evolution. What exactly do I believe based on words of others? There are experiments and studies proving or at least very strongly supporting my beliefs, and they are all logically explained. Christianity, is not.

There are also many different ideas of how evolution happened. Disagreement doesn't not disqualify anything. There are also many opinions on taxes, abortion, healthcare and the like. This does not mean that these opinions are wrong.

Disagreement is putting it likely. Evolution is based on science, creationism on myth. Which one should be taught as the truth? Which do you believe?

Sometimes he is angry, and at others he is merciful. It depends on whether you obey him. He was the one who made you and gave you everything you have so you do owe him quite a bit.

This is stupid. So, if you piss off God, he is incapable of controlling himself from killing you?!?! He is taking away their chance for repentance, plus, if he killed the gays in Sodom, why doesn't he kill them now? And why is it ok for God to kill those who piss him off, but it's not ok for me?

There are many ways to interpret genesis.

Not a few hundered years ago. Only until recently, was it up to interpretation. Remember, Galileo was imprisoned and tortured for trying to prove the Earth revolved around the sun. He was imprisoned and tortured because he was a "heretic".

I think he wants this to be a learning experience for us. If he does everything for us, then how good of a parent would he be?

Learning experience? So some of us will go to hell because God's word isn't clear enough for us, but it will at least eventually be clarified sometime in the future? Doesn't make sense. Why is his word so complicated in the first place? Why is it so shady?

Well Jesus can forgive sins including breaking commandments.

A scapegoat, in other words. But if God made things more clear, I wouldn't be breaking the commandments. So when does Jesus forgive my sins? I'm not going to confession because I do not believe that it is real, and for good reason. So if by some weird chance Christianity is true, when am I "saved"?

Maybe because people will do better if they know why they are here.

You will not find that answer in Christianity.

Burning in a lake of fire may be metaphorical. Hell may be a place of separation. I don't know that this life is necessarily the only opportunity we have to believe in God.

Again, clarity on God's side would be very beneficial indeed. There are far too many holes in it to be the truth, in my opinion.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

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