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What's the point of debating the religious?

Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right? So if you raise all the best arguments and debate tactics in the world and levy them against someone's faith-based belief, then wouldn't it just bear witness to the extent of their faith that they just ignore you and keep believing?
Because as it is so clearly pointed out by many atheists, you can't disprove something that was never proven.

Don't you guys just feel that when atheists and theists debate it is a fruitless venture? One is trying to convert the other to spiritualism and the other is trying to point out facts and logic. Both sides find strength in 'sticking to their guns' despite the appeals made on emotions and pathos or logic and intellect.

I think that debating a truly religious person is a fruitless endeavor. When the strength of their belief is to believe without proof in the first place.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/2/2012 8:27:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right?

Not necessarily. Faith can be based on personal experience = personal evidence. However, you can never use personal evidence as proof of something.

Religion should be a discussion, not a debate.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/2/2012 8:30:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What? Many people (I for one) have converted from religion due to intelectual reasons. And that goes the other way too.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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8/2/2012 8:30:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right? So if you raise all the best arguments and debate tactics in the world and levy them against someone's faith-based belief, then wouldn't it just bear witness to the extent of their faith that they just ignore you and keep believing?
Because as it is so clearly pointed out by many atheists, you can't disprove something that was never proven.

Don't you guys just feel that when atheists and theists debate it is a fruitless venture? One is trying to convert the other to spiritualism and the other is trying to point out facts and logic. Both sides find strength in 'sticking to their guns' despite the appeals made on emotions and pathos or logic and intellect.

I think that debating a truly religious person is a fruitless endeavor. When the strength of their belief is to believe without proof in the first place.

Religious debate is like feeding an addiction. It's like exercising one's arguing skills, because you're exactly right - there is usually no chance of conversion on either side. I think that generally when someone who feels helpless 'turns to God' it is more of a last resort at attempting to gain a solid state of mind, even if they don't totally believe it, a person can just give in to religious practice and it's ritualistic way of life will eventually provide comfort through conscious repetitions. For cases like this, any religion works.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
OllerupMand
Posts: 375
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8/2/2012 8:32:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
I think that debating a truly religious person is a fruitless endeavor. When the strength of their belief is to believe without proof in the first place.

That depend on your aim. It is properly fruitless if you want to converte them to your belief, but if you want to get a common understanding of each other then it is not.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/2/2012 8:35:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/2/2012 8:30:49 PM, phantom wrote:
What? Many people (I for one) have converted from religion due to intellectual reasons. And that goes the other way, too.

Obviously this.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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TheFogHorn
Posts: 183
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8/2/2012 8:40:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I was a Christian who attended church every Sunday....and then I heard, 'Does that not look like a volcano to you?' and it all drained out of me as it also all made perfect sense.

Unlikely but not impossible.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/2/2012 8:45:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right? So if you raise all the best arguments and debate tactics in the world and levy them against someone's faith-based belief, then wouldn't it just bear witness to the extent of their faith that they just ignore you and keep believing?
Because as it is so clearly pointed out by many atheists, you can't disprove something that was never proven.

Don't you guys just feel that when atheists and theists debate it is a fruitless venture? One is trying to convert the other to spiritualism and the other is trying to point out facts and logic. Both sides find strength in 'sticking to their guns' despite the appeals made on emotions and pathos or logic and intellect.

I think that debating a truly religious person is a fruitless endeavor. When the strength of their belief is to believe without proof in the first place.


Lmao..

It does seem pointless, but even more so with people who believe things like what you just said.

You seem to misunderstand.

It's not that we lack and rationality, logic, or intellect, it's that our goes beyond yours. You're stuck with the obvious sh*t, that we all know and agree with, but our desires go beyond what you are satisfied with.

So you see, we deal in reason, logic, and facts + faith and spirituality. You only have 3 of the 5, and you are the one with the deficit, not us.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
slo1
Posts: 4,318
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8/3/2012 8:58:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/2/2012 8:45:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right? So if you raise all the best arguments and debate tactics in the world and levy them against someone's faith-based belief, then wouldn't it just bear witness to the extent of their faith that they just ignore you and keep believing?
Because as it is so clearly pointed out by many atheists, you can't disprove something that was never proven.

Don't you guys just feel that when atheists and theists debate it is a fruitless venture? One is trying to convert the other to spiritualism and the other is trying to point out facts and logic. Both sides find strength in 'sticking to their guns' despite the appeals made on emotions and pathos or logic and intellect.

I think that debating a truly religious person is a fruitless endeavor. When the strength of their belief is to believe without proof in the first place.


Lmao..

It does seem pointless, but even more so with people who believe things like what you just said.

You seem to misunderstand.

It's not that we lack and rationality, logic, or intellect, it's that our goes beyond yours. You're stuck with the obvious sh*t, that we all know and agree with, but our desires go beyond what you are satisfied with.

So you see, we deal in reason, logic, and facts + faith and spirituality. You only have 3 of the 5, and you are the one with the deficit, not us.

That is not really fair to say. If you were to step back and look at faith and spirituality the fundamental problem is that a majority of pronounced views are wrong. Even within the context of Christianity there are so many beliefs that are not compatible with each other that from a pure odds standpoint you and everyone else is wrong except some very small minority. You have to ask your self why there are so many incorrect interpretations of faith and spirituality and how do you protect yourself from so many false prophets? The deficit is believing in something without fully vetting out underlining assumptions, distrusting leaders, getting enough view points at an intimate level, and questioning everything.

The fundamental problem is that the human brain is not programmed to be open to change. That is why it is very unlikely for a human to change their religious view point more than a few degrees, which in turn goes back to the fact that due to the diversity of religious belief an extremely large majority are just wrong with their beliefs.

I know I know what you are thinking.... "I'm not wrong cuz I got faith." Yeah you and billions of others. I prefer brands of faith that put it to the test such as handling highly venous snakes.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/3/2012 10:02:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Many theist on this site, and around the world, do not have "blind faith." That is the first thing. Furthermore, debating the existence of God has huge implications. Paraphrasing what C.S Lewis says, Christianity if false is of no importance. If it is true, it is of infinite importance. The only think it can be is moderately important.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/3/2012 10:02:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/3/2012 10:02:02 AM, stubs wrote:
Many theist on this site, and around the world, do not have "blind faith." That is the first thing. Furthermore, debating the existence of God has huge implications. Paraphrasing what C.S Lewis says, Christianity if false is of no importance. If it is true, it is of infinite importance. The only think it can be is moderately important.

*The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/3/2012 10:50:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/3/2012 10:02:37 AM, stubs wrote:
At 8/3/2012 10:02:02 AM, stubs wrote:
Many theist on this site, and around the world, do not have "blind faith." That is the first thing. Furthermore, debating the existence of God has huge implications. Paraphrasing what C.S Lewis says, Christianity if false is of no importance. If it is true, it is of infinite importance. The only think it can be is moderately important.

*The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.

I get along pretty well with C. S. Lewis quotes most of the time, but isn't the first part of that false? Christianity is the most popular religion in this country, and a voter's religious convictions can often influence their choice. So, even if false, how would Christianity be of no importance? Am I missing the point of what he's trying to say?
Axiom
Posts: 241
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8/3/2012 11:33:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/2/2012 8:45:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right? So if you raise all the best arguments and debate tactics in the world and levy them against someone's faith-based belief, then wouldn't it just bear witness to the extent of their faith that they just ignore you and keep believing?
Because as it is so clearly pointed out by many atheists, you can't disprove something that was never proven.

Don't you guys just feel that when atheists and theists debate it is a fruitless venture? One is trying to convert the other to spiritualism and the other is trying to point out facts and logic. Both sides find strength in 'sticking to their guns' despite the appeals made on emotions and pathos or logic and intellect.

I think that debating a truly religious person is a fruitless endeavor. When the strength of their belief is to believe without proof in the first place.


Lmao..

It does seem pointless, but even more so with people who believe things like what you just said.

You seem to misunderstand.

It's not that we lack and rationality, logic, or intellect, it's that our goes beyond yours. You're stuck with the obvious sh*t, that we all know and agree with, but our desires go beyond what you are satisfied with.

So you see, we deal in reason, logic, and facts + faith and spirituality. You only have 3 of the 5, and you are the one with the deficit, not us.

You don't know what I believe. :P
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/3/2012 1:27:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

That is not really fair to say.:

Completely fair.

If you were to step back and look at faith and spirituality the fundamental problem is that a majority of pronounced views are wrong. :

Why step away from the truth once you have it?

Even within the context of Christianity there are so many beliefs that are not compatible with each other that from a pure odds standpoint you and everyone else is wrong except some very small minority. :

Show......

You have to ask your self why there are so many incorrect interpretations of faith and spirituality and how do you protect yourself from so many false prophets? The deficit is believing in something without fully vetting out underlining assumptions, distrusting leaders, getting enough view points at an intimate level, and questioning everything.:

thats easy of you have Jesus Christ or around those that do you very likely to find the correctly. If you stay in the word of God then you likely will find correctly.

The fundamental problem is that the human brain is not programmed to be open to change. That is why it is very unlikely for a human to change their religious view point more than a few degrees, which in turn goes back to the fact that due to the diversity of religious belief an extremely large majority are just wrong with their beliefs.:

You do not know if they are or not, Thats only opinion.

I know I know what you are thinking.... "I'm not wrong cuz I got faith." Yeah you and billions of others. I prefer brands of faith that put it to the test such as handling highly venous snakes.

No, you require something you can see and touch.
TheAsylum
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/3/2012 2:23:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/2/2012 8:27:57 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right?

Not necessarily. Faith can be based on personal experience = personal evidence. However, you can never use personal evidence as proof of something.

Religion should be a discussion, not a debate.

This. I would only add that personal experience/evidence has no place in debate.

There is this belief among some -more truculent- Christians that evangelism is indistinguishable from persuasion. Evangelism is showing a person the doorway to the other side, each person has to choose to open it for themselves. People cannot be "coerced" into Christianity.
Tsar of DDO
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/3/2012 2:32:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/3/2012 2:23:44 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/2/2012 8:27:57 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right?

Not necessarily. Faith can be based on personal experience = personal evidence. However, you can never use personal evidence as proof of something.

Religion should be a discussion, not a debate.

This. I would only add that personal experience/evidence has no place in debate.

There is this belief among some -more truculent- Christians that evangelism is indistinguishable from persuasion. Evangelism is showing a person the doorway to the other side, each person has to choose to open it for themselves. People cannot be "coerced" into Christianity.


God does "coerces" his elect to salvation.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/3/2012 4:19:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/3/2012 2:32:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/3/2012 2:23:44 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/2/2012 8:27:57 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right?

Not necessarily. Faith can be based on personal experience = personal evidence. However, you can never use personal evidence as proof of something.

Religion should be a discussion, not a debate.

This. I would only add that personal experience/evidence has no place in debate.

There is this belief among some -more truculent- Christians that evangelism is indistinguishable from persuasion. Evangelism is showing a person the doorway to the other side, each person has to choose to open it for themselves. People cannot be "coerced" into Christianity.


God does "coerces" his elect to salvation.

Do you mean:

"God does coerce his elect to salvation."

?

As it were... I'm thinking this could become a discussion of predestination. I could be wrong, but I'm curious wether you want to elaborate on that statement you made. If so, I'd be interested in hearing your perspective.
Tsar of DDO
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/4/2012 2:00:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/3/2012 8:58:25 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 8/2/2012 8:45:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith. Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right? So if you raise all the best arguments and debate tactics in the world and levy them against someone's faith-based belief, then wouldn't it just bear witness to the extent of their faith that they just ignore you and keep believing?
Because as it is so clearly pointed out by many atheists, you can't disprove something that was never proven.

Don't you guys just feel that when atheists and theists debate it is a fruitless venture? One is trying to convert the other to spiritualism and the other is trying to point out facts and logic. Both sides find strength in 'sticking to their guns' despite the appeals made on emotions and pathos or logic and intellect.

I think that debating a truly religious person is a fruitless endeavor. When the strength of their belief is to believe without proof in the first place.


Lmao..

It does seem pointless, but even more so with people who believe things like what you just said.

You seem to misunderstand.

It's not that we lack and rationality, logic, or intellect, it's that our goes beyond yours. You're stuck with the obvious sh*t, that we all know and agree with, but our desires go beyond what you are satisfied with.

So you see, we deal in reason, logic, and facts + faith and spirituality. You only have 3 of the 5, and you are the one with the deficit, not us.

That is not really fair to say. If you were to step back and look at faith and spirituality the fundamental problem is that a majority of pronounced views are wrong. Even within the context of Christianity there are so many beliefs that are not compatible with each other that from a pure odds standpoint you and everyone else is wrong except some very small minority.

My denomination is a minority ;p

You have to ask your self why there are so many incorrect interpretations of faith and spirituality and how do you protect yourself from so many false prophets? The deficit is believing in something without fully vetting out underlining assumptions, distrusting leaders, getting enough view points at an intimate level, and questioning everything.

What leaders? or false prohpets? I don't consider anyone i've ever met to be a 'prophet'(whatever you mean by that). I do question everything, but you must realize some questions produce useless information.. for instance:

If i describe the way an automobile works and operates, get into all the details of the engine and how the fuel produces the motion of the cylinders, how the axel then rotates the wheels, etc etc. Then, after all of my explanation is done.. the question arises "well, why is the car green?"

utterly useless.

The fundamental problem is that the human brain is not programmed to be open to change. That is why it is very unlikely for a human to change their religious view point more than a few degrees, which in turn goes back to the fact that due to the diversity of religious belief an extremely large majority are just wrong with their beliefs.

Hmm, I've been subject to quite a bit of change in my life.. some of it has been pretty drastic.

But i agree, most are wrong...

13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I know I know what you are thinking.... "I'm not wrong cuz I got faith." Yeah you and billions of others. I prefer brands of faith that put it to the test such as handling highly venous snakes.

Lol, I could be wrong.. I simply have faith in God's word and will. I understand there is much debate on the "correct" theology, however, it doesn't seem too difficult to me, to figure out the essetial beleifs.

In my opinion, once you remove man from the word of God, it all makes sense :)

But no, i will not be handling no venomous snakes, because if i do, i have no idea if it's God's will that i get bit!! lol
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/4/2012 6:02:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/2/2012 8:25:40 PM, Axiom wrote:
Why debate people who are religious? Their entire belief system is founded in faith.
Not true.

Faith is a belief in something without evidence or empircal proof, right?
Nope. It has a vast variety of meanings, one of them being say, belief in the unseen or similar metaphysical concepts.