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Omniscience and Free Will

HelterSkelter
Posts: 281
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8/6/2012 10:45:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm religious. I've always been taught that we have free will, but that doesn't make sense with the idea of an omniscient God. If God knows everything it logically follows that he must know the future, and if he knows the future, it is fixed and nothing I do can change that.

Now, some people claim that God knows us well enough that he can psychologically analyze us and determine what the future is. In other words, God doesn't have inherent knowledge of the future; rather, God gains knowledge of the future based on insights that he has about us in the present.

That seems to undermine the notion of God knowing everything since there would always be a point at which he doesn't have knowledge of future events. If he learns by analyzing the present, then before the analysis took place, he didn't know about the future.

The most famous example that people use is that of a man walking into an ice-cream store. Suppose I walk into the shop. People say that God knows that I will purchase peanut-butter ice cream because it is my favorite. If I choose vanilla instead because I wanted to try something else instead, God already knew that because of the mood I was in, I would pick vanilla.

Let's change the scenario, however. Suppose I walk into the ice-cream shop and make the following chart:

1. Peanut Butter
2. Vanilla
3. Mint Chocolate Chip
4. Cookies and Cream
5. Strawberry
6. Rocky Road

Now suppose I use a process to randomly generate a number and based on the number that is selected, I purchase the corresponding flavor of ice cream. If a 4 gets selected, for example, I have cookies and cream. Does God know which ice cream I will eat in this scenario before the random process (like a dice-roll) selects the number?

If not, then he's not omniscient. If he does, then the future is fixed since God knows the outcome of even chance events and the element of "chance" disappears.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/6/2012 11:03:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 10:45:43 AM, HelterSkelter wrote:
I'm religious. I've always been taught that we have free will, but that doesn't make sense with the idea of an omniscient God. If God knows everything it logically follows that he must know the future, and if he knows the future, it is fixed and nothing I do can change that.

Now, some people claim that God knows us well enough that he can psychologically analyze us and determine what the future is. In other words, God doesn't have inherent knowledge of the future; rather, God gains knowledge of the future based on insights that he has about us in the present.

That seems to undermine the notion of God knowing everything since there would always be a point at which he doesn't have knowledge of future events. If he learns by analyzing the present, then before the analysis took place, he didn't know about the future.

The most famous example that people use is that of a man walking into an ice-cream store. Suppose I walk into the shop. People say that God knows that I will purchase peanut-butter ice cream because it is my favorite. If I choose vanilla instead because I wanted to try something else instead, God already knew that because of the mood I was in, I would pick vanilla.

Let's change the scenario, however. Suppose I walk into the ice-cream shop and make the following chart:

1. Peanut Butter
2. Vanilla
3. Mint Chocolate Chip
4. Cookies and Cream
5. Strawberry
6. Rocky Road

Now suppose I use a process to randomly generate a number and based on the number that is selected, I purchase the corresponding flavor of ice cream. If a 4 gets selected, for example, I have cookies and cream. Does God know which ice cream I will eat in this scenario before the random process (like a dice-roll) selects the number?

If not, then he's not omniscient. If he does, then the future is fixed since God knows the outcome of even chance events and the element of "chance" disappears.

Here's the way I see it.

God could know you will choose X by:

Seeing the future... i.e. having a method to transmit data from the future to the past.

Being outside our space-time. Imagine you were a comic strip character. In your 2-d world, time passes as you go from frame to frame. Someone in a higher dimension though, can look at any point of the 2-d strip, and essentially see the future.

God just knows us perfectly. He knows what we will choose, but we are still the ones making the choice. My analogy is how I know(not 100%, but pretty darn close, and I'm an imperfect mortal) that my son will choose a donut over a $100 bill if I give him the choice.

Or, there could be some other way. If God exists, then clearly we don't understand the principles by which he operates, so there could be any explanation we haven't/can't think of.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/6/2012 11:06:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Forget the means by which it happens though.

P1 - God knows what you will choose

If P1 is true, then you have free will. If you believe God exists, and somehow he knows what you will choose, then he knows, but it's still your choice.

You could say the future is fixed by what you will choose. Think of it this way: You will never do something that you won't do. If you do something, then it wasn't a won't.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
HelterSkelter
Posts: 281
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8/6/2012 11:21:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If he sees it through space-time analysis, then it logically follows that the acts were pre-determined. I don't thin you've answered the question about chance, however, and that solves the "he knows what you'll choose" argument. If my choice is based on the dice-roll, my choice is a result of chance.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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8/6/2012 11:45:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
God knows that you will use a randomly generated number. He also knows what number will be produced, because he knows how the randomly generated number machine works. You still have freewill. God is just a "genius" at predicting the future.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/6/2012 11:48:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:21:43 AM, HelterSkelter wrote:
If he sees it through space-time analysis, then it logically follows that the acts were pre-determined. I don't thin you've answered the question about chance, however, and that solves the "he knows what you'll choose" argument. If my choice is based on the dice-roll, my choice is a result of chance.

You won't ever be able to figure it out, trying to understand how.

If you believe in God, you have to believe that He has methods that are beyond our current understanding.

If you believe that God knows what choices you will make, then they are still your choices. He just has some means of knowing them beforehand.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/6/2012 12:02:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You are going to do what you are going to do tomorrow.

Can you choose otherwise?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/6/2012 12:32:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You're basically asking can you choose to do something other than what God knows you will choose to do. So can you choose to do something different than you will choose to do? It's the same question.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/6/2012 12:36:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 12:32:48 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You're basically asking can you choose to do something other than what God knows you will choose to do. So can you choose to do something different than you will choose to do? It's the same question.

And what's your answer?
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/6/2012 12:40:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 12:36:44 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:32:48 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You're basically asking can you choose to do something other than what God knows you will choose to do. So can you choose to do something different than you will choose to do? It's the same question.

And what's your answer?

The answer is no. You can't choose to do anything that you aren't going to choose to do.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/6/2012 12:44:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 12:40:11 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:36:44 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:32:48 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You're basically asking can you choose to do something other than what God knows you will choose to do. So can you choose to do something different than you will choose to do? It's the same question.

And what's your answer?

The answer is no. You can't choose to do anything that you aren't going to choose to do.

Then at what point do I actually have a choice?
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/6/2012 12:49:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 12:44:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:40:11 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:36:44 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:32:48 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You're basically asking can you choose to do something other than what God knows you will choose to do. So can you choose to do something different than you will choose to do? It's the same question.

And what's your answer?

The answer is no. You can't choose to do anything that you aren't going to choose to do.

Then at what point do I actually have a choice?

You always have a choice, right up until the moment you make the choice(act on it). Once you make the choice, you can't change it.

But look at something you chose to do today. Let's say you ate cereal for breakfast.

At no point in the past was the phrase 'On 8/6/12 I will choose not to eat cereal' true. You're trying to mix up cause and effect.

Your argument goes along these lines.

P1 - I will eat cheese tomorrow
C - I had no choice but to eat cheese tomorrow.

In other words, eating cheese is the cause for not having any other choice.

It's the other way around though. Your choice defines the action, not vice versa.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/6/2012 1:24:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 12:49:10 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:44:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:40:11 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:36:44 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:32:48 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You're basically asking can you choose to do something other than what God knows you will choose to do. So can you choose to do something different than you will choose to do? It's the same question.

And what's your answer?

The answer is no. You can't choose to do anything that you aren't going to choose to do.

Then at what point do I actually have a choice?

You always have a choice, right up until the moment you make the choice(act on it). Once you make the choice, you can't change it.

Not according to this scenario. If God comes down and tells me the outcome of my choice before I make it, then either:
A) I can't choose otherwise, in which case I don't have the choice.
B) I can choose otherwise, in which case his knowledge was false.


But look at something you chose to do today. Let's say you ate cereal for breakfast.

At no point in the past was the phrase 'On 8/6/12 I will choose not to eat cereal' true. You're trying to mix up cause and effect.

No I'm not. I haven't invoked cause or effect at all, either implicitly or not.


Your argument goes along these lines.

P1 - I will eat cheese tomorrow
C - I had no choice but to eat cheese tomorrow.

I haven't presented any argument. I'm asking questions.


In other words, eating cheese is the cause for not having any other choice.

It's the other way around though. Your choice defines the action, not vice versa.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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8/6/2012 1:26:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 1:24:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:49:10 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:44:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:40:11 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:36:44 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:32:48 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You're basically asking can you choose to do something other than what God knows you will choose to do. So can you choose to do something different than you will choose to do? It's the same question.

And what's your answer?

The answer is no. You can't choose to do anything that you aren't going to choose to do.

Then at what point do I actually have a choice?

You always have a choice, right up until the moment you make the choice(act on it). Once you make the choice, you can't change it.

Not according to this scenario. If God comes down and tells me the outcome of my choice before I make it, then either:
A) I can't choose otherwise, in which case I don't have the choice.
B) I can choose otherwise, in which case his knowledge was false.

That's exactly where you are using cause and effect.

WHY does God know what you will do?

If it is because he knows what you will choose(doesn't matter how, if he knows what you will CHOOSE, then you are the one CHOOSING it), then his knowledge is based on your choice.

So the real question is, can God know that you will choose something that you won't choose?


But look at something you chose to do today. Let's say you ate cereal for breakfast.

At no point in the past was the phrase 'On 8/6/12 I will choose not to eat cereal' true. You're trying to mix up cause and effect.

No I'm not. I haven't invoked cause or effect at all, either implicitly or not.

Yeah, you did.


Your argument goes along these lines.

P1 - I will eat cheese tomorrow
C - I had no choice but to eat cheese tomorrow.

I haven't presented any argument. I'm asking questions.


In other words, eating cheese is the cause for not having any other choice.

It's the other way around though. Your choice defines the action, not vice versa.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/6/2012 1:51:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 1:26:31 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 1:24:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:49:10 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:44:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:40:11 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:36:44 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:32:48 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You're basically asking can you choose to do something other than what God knows you will choose to do. So can you choose to do something different than you will choose to do? It's the same question.

And what's your answer?

The answer is no. You can't choose to do anything that you aren't going to choose to do.

Then at what point do I actually have a choice?

You always have a choice, right up until the moment you make the choice(act on it). Once you make the choice, you can't change it.

Not according to this scenario. If God comes down and tells me the outcome of my choice before I make it, then either:
A) I can't choose otherwise, in which case I don't have the choice.
B) I can choose otherwise, in which case his knowledge was false.

That's exactly where you are using cause and effect.

Except I'm not suggesting any causal factors here.


WHY does God know what you will do?

Because that's a given in this scenario.


If it is because he knows what you will choose(doesn't matter how, if he knows what you will CHOOSE, then you are the one CHOOSING it), then his knowledge is based on your choice.

So the real question is, can God know that you will choose something that you won't choose?

No, the real question is the question I actually asked.



But look at something you chose to do today. Let's say you ate cereal for breakfast.

At no point in the past was the phrase 'On 8/6/12 I will choose not to eat cereal' true. You're trying to mix up cause and effect.

No I'm not. I haven't invoked cause or effect at all, either implicitly or not.

Yeah, you did.

No, I didn't.



Your argument goes along these lines.

P1 - I will eat cheese tomorrow
C - I had no choice but to eat cheese tomorrow.

I haven't presented any argument. I'm asking questions.


In other words, eating cheese is the cause for not having any other choice.

It's the other way around though. Your choice defines the action, not vice versa.
HelterSkelter
Posts: 281
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8/6/2012 2:02:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:48:17 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:21:43 AM, HelterSkelter wrote:
If he sees it through space-time analysis, then it logically follows that the acts were pre-determined. I don't thin you've answered the question about chance, however, and that solves the "he knows what you'll choose" argument. If my choice is based on the dice-roll, my choice is a result of chance.

You won't ever be able to figure it out, trying to understand how.

If you believe in God, you have to believe that He has methods that are beyond our current understanding.

If you believe that God knows what choices you will make, then they are still your choices. He just has some means of knowing them beforehand.

That's completely incompatible with the idea of free will. I believe in both determinism and God.
HelterSkelter
Posts: 281
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8/6/2012 2:02:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

See the chance analysis I provided with the ice-cream shop and the random selection.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/6/2012 2:05:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 2:02:11 PM, HelterSkelter wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:48:17 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:21:43 AM, HelterSkelter wrote:
If he sees it through space-time analysis, then it logically follows that the acts were pre-determined. I don't thin you've answered the question about chance, however, and that solves the "he knows what you'll choose" argument. If my choice is based on the dice-roll, my choice is a result of chance.

You won't ever be able to figure it out, trying to understand how.

If you believe in God, you have to believe that He has methods that are beyond our current understanding.

If you believe that God knows what choices you will make, then they are still your choices. He just has some means of knowing them beforehand.

That's completely incompatible with the idea of free will. I believe in both determinism and God.

If you believe in Determinism, then it follows that God is cruel and unjust. If follows that people who "sin" sinned inevitably, and their actions and decisions were not self-formed but rather the product of preceding events not within their control. Knowing this, how can God let people fall to hell?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/6/2012 2:11:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 2:03:32 PM, HelterSkelter wrote:
Could someone who defends free will refute the example I gave?

Why believe in free will?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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Stewpid_Monkey
Posts: 1
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8/6/2012 2:40:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have always been of the mind state tha knowledge of a future event does not negate free will. Now; that being said. I personally feel that choices given in a controlled environment is not free will. Follow me on this.

An omniscient being deciedes to create the universe. From that moment, all things are known. Yet this being goes on with it's plans. And then it destorys it's own creation for doing the things that were already known.

Better example.

I know that if you get into the red sports car in front of your house, you will get into a car accident. I then create the circumstances where an emergency arises and you need a car. I then proceed to remove all other vehicles as an option, leaving only the red sports car available option. Then once you get into the red sports car and get into your accident, I slam you for doing that, telling you how horrible of a being you are. Is this free will?
SteWpId MoNkEy
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/6/2012 3:10:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Theists have an escape rout for this...

The free choice you make in the future, is what causes God to have knowledge of it. God knowing the what you will do, does not cause you to make that choice at all. Thus, you can still have free will even if God knows what you will do.

Close Thread.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/6/2012 3:18:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 2:05:33 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/6/2012 2:02:11 PM, HelterSkelter wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:48:17 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:21:43 AM, HelterSkelter wrote:
If he sees it through space-time analysis, then it logically follows that the acts were pre-determined. I don't thin you've answered the question about chance, however, and that solves the "he knows what you'll choose" argument. If my choice is based on the dice-roll, my choice is a result of chance.

You won't ever be able to figure it out, trying to understand how.

If you believe in God, you have to believe that He has methods that are beyond our current understanding.

If you believe that God knows what choices you will make, then they are still your choices. He just has some means of knowing them beforehand.

That's completely incompatible with the idea of free will. I believe in both determinism and God.

If you believe in Determinism, then it follows that God is cruel and unjust. If follows that people who "sin" sinned inevitably, and their actions and decisions were not self-formed but rather the product of preceding events not within their control. Knowing this, how can God let people fall to hell?

Quantum Indeterminacy pretty much debunks the notion that all things are determined. Just saying..
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/6/2012 3:22:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 3:18:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 8/6/2012 2:05:33 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/6/2012 2:02:11 PM, HelterSkelter wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:48:17 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:21:43 AM, HelterSkelter wrote:
If he sees it through space-time analysis, then it logically follows that the acts were pre-determined. I don't thin you've answered the question about chance, however, and that solves the "he knows what you'll choose" argument. If my choice is based on the dice-roll, my choice is a result of chance.

You won't ever be able to figure it out, trying to understand how.

If you believe in God, you have to believe that He has methods that are beyond our current understanding.

If you believe that God knows what choices you will make, then they are still your choices. He just has some means of knowing them beforehand.

That's completely incompatible with the idea of free will. I believe in both determinism and God.

If you believe in Determinism, then it follows that God is cruel and unjust. If follows that people who "sin" sinned inevitably, and their actions and decisions were not self-formed but rather the product of preceding events not within their control. Knowing this, how can God let people fall to hell?

Quantum Indeterminacy pretty much debunks the notion that all things are determined. Just saying..

That really isn't relevant to freewill, and it's an unstable science anyway. I'd abandon determinism if it was actually more destructive of it, but it isn't.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/6/2012 3:33:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 12:44:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:40:11 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:36:44 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 12:32:48 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:57:35 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:52:08 AM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I don't see any problem with God knowing everything you're going to do, and you having free will. Just phrase it this way:

God knows all of the choices you're going to freely choose.

Not a problem, right? I used to have a problem with this when I was like, 10, but if you think about it the right way, it's not a huge deal.

God comes down and tells me what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Can I choose to do otherwise?

You're basically asking can you choose to do something other than what God knows you will choose to do. So can you choose to do something different than you will choose to do? It's the same question.

And what's your answer?

The answer is no. You can't choose to do anything that you aren't going to choose to do.

Then at what point do I actually have a choice?

You made the choice... haha
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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8/6/2012 3:53:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There's a difference between having the ability to choose differently yet not choosing differently, and not having the ability to choose differently.

God tells you "You are going to freely choose to do Y tommorow"

Does that mean you can't NOT choose Y? Of course not. But you're not going to, because you're going to choose Y.

I think that's why God never tells anyone "You're going to do X".
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/6/2012 4:38:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 10:45:43 AM, HelterSkelter wrote:
I'm religious. I've always been taught that we have free will, but that doesn't make sense with the idea of an omniscient God. If God knows everything it logically follows that he must know the future, and if he knows the future, it is fixed and nothing I do can change that.

Now, some people claim that God knows us well enough that he can psychologically analyze us and determine what the future is. In other words, God doesn't have inherent knowledge of the future; rather, God gains knowledge of the future based on insights that he has about us in the present.

That seems to undermine the notion of God knowing everything since there would always be a point at which he doesn't have knowledge of future events. If he learns by analyzing the present, then before the analysis took place, he didn't know about the future.

The most famous example that people use is that of a man walking into an ice-cream store. Suppose I walk into the shop. People say that God knows that I will purchase peanut-butter ice cream because it is my favorite. If I choose vanilla instead because I wanted to try something else instead, God already knew that because of the mood I was in, I would pick vanilla.

Let's change the scenario, however. Suppose I walk into the ice-cream shop and make the following chart:

1. Peanut Butter
2. Vanilla
3. Mint Chocolate Chip
4. Cookies and Cream
5. Strawberry
6. Rocky Road

Now suppose I use a process to randomly generate a number and based on the number that is selected, I purchase the corresponding flavor of ice cream. If a 4 gets selected, for example, I have cookies and cream. Does God know which ice cream I will eat in this scenario before the random process (like a dice-roll) selects the number?

If not, then he's not omniscient. If he does, then the future is fixed since God knows the outcome of even chance events and the element of "chance" disappears.


There are few different sorts of Will, and I'm a bit confused as to what you concern is ultimately about..

Are you simply curious if your personality is actualy "you" or if you are just an automaton?

Or, are you thinking a bigger, more significant question, such as: Does(did) God choose me, or do(did) I choose him? or did he choose me because he knew i would choose him?(if that makes any sense)

Maybe I'm way off, but it seems you are dabbling in a very trivial, and rather unsolvable, matter..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/6/2012 4:39:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 3:22:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/6/2012 3:18:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 8/6/2012 2:05:33 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/6/2012 2:02:11 PM, HelterSkelter wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:48:17 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:21:43 AM, HelterSkelter wrote:
If he sees it through space-time analysis, then it logically follows that the acts were pre-determined. I don't thin you've answered the question about chance, however, and that solves the "he knows what you'll choose" argument. If my choice is based on the dice-roll, my choice is a result of chance.

You won't ever be able to figure it out, trying to understand how.

If you believe in God, you have to believe that He has methods that are beyond our current understanding.

If you believe that God knows what choices you will make, then they are still your choices. He just has some means of knowing them beforehand.

That's completely incompatible with the idea of free will. I believe in both determinism and God.

If you believe in Determinism, then it follows that God is cruel and unjust. If follows that people who "sin" sinned inevitably, and their actions and decisions were not self-formed but rather the product of preceding events not within their control. Knowing this, how can God let people fall to hell?

Quantum Indeterminacy pretty much debunks the notion that all things are determined. Just saying..


That really isn't relevant to freewill

Agreed, but it's relevant to determinism.

and it's an unstable science anyway.

Agreed, not being able to predict the acts of particles isn't very stable science at all. However, this statement doesn't help determinism any. Virtual Particles are commonly acknowledged to act in an indeterministic fashion. One would have to abandon locality to posit some hidden variables, plus there are some noticeable flaws with deterministic models.

I'd abandon determinism if it was actually more destructive of it, but it isn't.

If determinism is true then for everything that happens there are conditions that, given them, nothing else could happen. However, due to quantum uncertainty, if you round back the clock to a certain point, there would be different quantum events at different times and at different places in space even with the exact same conditions.

If that's not destructive, I do not know what is.