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The disappearance of an overt God

tvellalott
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8/6/2012 7:13:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
OVERT: "Done or shown openly; plainly or readily apparent, not secret or hidden."

P1: According to the Bible, God has revealed himself overtly many times in the past.

He's...
...Flooded the entire Earth
...Rained fire upon 'sinful' cities
...Impregnated woman with his 'holy spirit'
...Risen the dead

P2: God has not revealed himself overtly in recent history.

We, the Human race, have gotten increasingly better at recording events. Yet, in the past thousand years nothing remotely like the above has occurred. Many, many of you may argue against this point. You may say that you have personally felt God in your lives... The key word here is OVERT.

P3: There exist people who honestly don't believe in a Biblical God.

Despite what some may believe, I think this is obvious.
-----

So, given Christian scripture shows God has no problem intervening in the world, why has God stopped revealing himself overtly? If it violates free will to reveal himself, why did he so openly destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (just for example)? Didn't speaking to Noah and then ACTUALLY FLOODING THE EARTH violate Noah's free will? Didn't Jesus violate all of the disciples free will by performing miracles in front of them?

This kind of blatant problem is why I'm brazen in my Atheism, growing increasingly certain of my conviction that God doesn't exist and is simply a story that has grown out of hand through cultural heritage; an unfalsifiable Santa Clause for adults, with the keeper of the secret (Santa doesn't exist) lost long ago.

Feel free to contest any of my points (particularly P2, which I think is the main point of contention here.) I'm no Biblical scholar and I may very well be missing something here which explains the change from overt to secret God...
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Mirza
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8/6/2012 7:26:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:13:40 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OVERT: "Done or shown openly; plainly or readily apparent, not secret or hidden."

P1: According to the Bible, God has revealed himself overtly many times in the past.

He's...
...Flooded the entire Earth
...Rained fire upon 'sinful' cities
...Impregnated woman with his 'holy spirit'
...Risen the dead


P2: God has not revealed himself overtly in recent history.

We, the Human race, have gotten increasingly better at recording events. Yet, in the past thousand years nothing remotely like the above has occurred. Many, many of you may argue against this point. You may say that you have personally felt God in your lives... The key word here is OVERT.

P3: There exist people who honestly don't believe in a Biblical God.

Despite what some may believe, I think this is obvious.
-----

So, given Christian scripture shows God has no problem intervening in the world, why has God stopped revealing himself overtly? If it violates free will to reveal himself, why did he so openly destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (just for example)? Didn't speaking to Noah and then ACTUALLY FLOODING THE EARTH violate Noah's free will? Didn't Jesus violate all of the disciples free will by performing miracles in front of them?

This kind of blatant problem is why I'm brazen in my Atheism, growing increasingly certain of my conviction that God doesn't exist and is simply a story that has grown out of hand through cultural heritage; an unfalsifiable Santa Clause for adults, with the keeper of the secret (Santa doesn't exist) lost long ago.

Feel free to contest any of my points (particularly P2, which I think is the main point of contention here.) I'm no Biblical scholar and I may very well be missing something here which explains the change from overt to secret God...
God does not reveal Himself in a fashion that will make belief in Him guaranteed. Rather, He manifests His existence through thought-provoking actions. This is why the purpose of life is to pass it by worshiping God. The purpose is not to jest.
tvellalott
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8/6/2012 7:29:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:26:22 PM, Mirza wrote:
God does not reveal Himself in a fashion that will make belief in Him guaranteed. Rather, He manifests His existence through thought-provoking actions. This is why the purpose of life is to pass it by worshiping God. The purpose is not to jest.

Wouldn't it be better to ensure everyone believes in him, but to make worship and love of him the optional part (as in the story of Job and Abraham).
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Mirza
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8/6/2012 7:31:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:29:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 7:26:22 PM, Mirza wrote:
God does not reveal Himself in a fashion that will make belief in Him guaranteed. Rather, He manifests His existence through thought-provoking actions. This is why the purpose of life is to pass it by worshiping God. The purpose is not to jest.

Wouldn't it be better to ensure everyone believes in him, but to make worship and love of him the optional part (as in the story of Job and Abraham).
It would if we were programmed to believe and only have the option to do better and better. That would make us angels, not humans. Humans exist for a purpose, which is to worship God by struggling (i.e., overcome evil desires, seek knowledge of God, etc.).
Mirza
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8/6/2012 7:34:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In addition, the reason why there exist beings that are capable of doing evil and going astray is because God has attributes that necessarily exist and manifest themselves. For instance, God is Ever-Forgiving, an attribute that can only be used toward beings that are able to sin. If God operated by the way you wish, He would not fulfill all His attributes, nor would He be maximally powerful.
tvellalott
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8/6/2012 7:40:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I see where you're coming from Mirza and I expected this response...

...which is why I gave examples of an overt God directly from the Bible. I'm admittedly even less familiar with the actions of Allah than I am with Yahweh. If he doesn't overtly display his power in your holy books, this doesn't really apply to Muslims.
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Paradox_7
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8/6/2012 7:44:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:13:40 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OVERT: "Done or shown openly; plainly or readily apparent, not secret or hidden."

P1: According to the Bible, God has revealed himself overtly many times in the past.

He's...
...Flooded the entire Earth
...Rained fire upon 'sinful' cities
...Impregnated woman with his 'holy spirit'
...Risen the dead


P2: God has not revealed himself overtly in recent history.

We, the Human race, have gotten increasingly better at recording events. Yet, in the past thousand years nothing remotely like the above has occurred. Many, many of you may argue against this point. You may say that you have personally felt God in your lives... The key word here is OVERT.

P3: There exist people who honestly don't believe in a Biblical God.

Despite what some may believe, I think this is obvious.
-----

So, given Christian scripture shows God has no problem intervening in the world, why has God stopped revealing himself overtly? If it violates free will to reveal himself, why did he so openly destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (just for example)? Didn't speaking to Noah and then ACTUALLY FLOODING THE EARTH violate Noah's free will? Didn't Jesus violate all of the disciples free will by performing miracles in front of them?

This kind of blatant problem is why I'm brazen in my Atheism, growing increasingly certain of my conviction that God doesn't exist and is simply a story that has grown out of hand through cultural heritage; an unfalsifiable Santa Clause for adults, with the keeper of the secret (Santa doesn't exist) lost long ago.

Feel free to contest any of my points (particularly P2, which I think is the main point of contention here.) I'm no Biblical scholar and I may very well be missing something here which explains the change from overt to secret God...


You are correct.. you are missing something.. a big something.

All of God's intervention, which was really only known by those he chose to reveal it, was purposed to fill the bible (the word, son). I'm pretty sure, the people of Soddom and Gamorrah just thought the fire was just a freak accident.. someone dopped a lamp on some hay or something. Doesn't really matter.

There is no free-will, and God's hand is either involved-- thus having certain purposed results, or his hand is removed which also causes certain purposed results (leaving him without moral responsibility).

If you believe that God is a just a fictional being, like santa clause, then why do you even bother talking about it? seriously, if i met a grown person who still believed in santa clause.. i wouldn't waste my breath.

I know there are some loonies out there, but I'm not one of them.. and I firmly beleive in God, Christ, and all of the covenant promises. I don't like it, but it's the truth, and I just gotta suck it up..

trust me, i really wish i could be an atheists sometimes.. but there is just too much bullsh*t involved in it.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Mirza
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8/6/2012 7:45:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:40:45 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I see where you're coming from Mirza and I expected this response...

...which is why I gave examples of an overt God directly from the Bible. I'm admittedly even less familiar with the actions of Allah than I am with Yahweh. If he doesn't overtly display his power in your holy books, this doesn't really apply to Muslims.
My argument applies to both sides. When God punished cities (i.e., their inhabitants) in the past and made His presence rather obvious, that was because evidence for Him was less evident in the past. Material about the true religion was not widespread like today, and one had to struggle much harder to believe. If you doubt today, you can easily get a copy of your Holy Book and strengthen your Faith. This was not the case in ancient times.

I could go in-depth, but you get my point I think.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/6/2012 7:47:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:29:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 7:26:22 PM, Mirza wrote:
God does not reveal Himself in a fashion that will make belief in Him guaranteed. Rather, He manifests His existence through thought-provoking actions. This is why the purpose of life is to pass it by worshiping God. The purpose is not to jest.

Wouldn't it be better to ensure everyone believes in him, but to make worship and love of him the optional part (as in the story of Job and Abraham).

I wouldn't even bother wandering into that hornet's nest. I think the more relevant question is "What changed?" Why stop openly identifying himself when interfering in human affairs?
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tvellalott
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8/6/2012 7:50:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:44:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/6/2012 7:13:40 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OVERT: "Done or shown openly; plainly or readily apparent, not secret or hidden."

P1: According to the Bible, God has revealed himself overtly many times in the past.

He's...
...Flooded the entire Earth
...Rained fire upon 'sinful' cities
...Impregnated woman with his 'holy spirit'
...Risen the dead


P2: God has not revealed himself overtly in recent history.

We, the Human race, have gotten increasingly better at recording events. Yet, in the past thousand years nothing remotely like the above has occurred. Many, many of you may argue against this point. You may say that you have personally felt God in your lives... The key word here is OVERT.

P3: There exist people who honestly don't believe in a Biblical God.

Despite what some may believe, I think this is obvious.
-----

So, given Christian scripture shows God has no problem intervening in the world, why has God stopped revealing himself overtly? If it violates free will to reveal himself, why did he so openly destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (just for example)? Didn't speaking to Noah and then ACTUALLY FLOODING THE EARTH violate Noah's free will? Didn't Jesus violate all of the disciples free will by performing miracles in front of them?

This kind of blatant problem is why I'm brazen in my Atheism, growing increasingly certain of my conviction that God doesn't exist and is simply a story that has grown out of hand through cultural heritage; an unfalsifiable Santa Clause for adults, with the keeper of the secret (Santa doesn't exist) lost long ago.

Feel free to contest any of my points (particularly P2, which I think is the main point of contention here.) I'm no Biblical scholar and I may very well be missing something here which explains the change from overt to secret God...


You are correct.. you are missing something.. a big something.

All of God's intervention, which was really only known by those he chose to reveal it, was purposed to fill the bible (the word, son). I'm pretty sure, the people of Soddom and Gamorrah just thought the fire was just a freak accident.. someone dopped a lamp on some hay or something. Doesn't really matter.

Freak accidents usually don't destroy 4 cities with (sic) 'fire and brimstone'.

There is no free-will, and God's hand is either involved-- thus having certain purposed results, or his hand is removed which also causes certain purposed results (leaving him without moral responsibility).

Wut?

If you believe that God is a just a fictional being, like santa clause, then why do you even bother talking about it? seriously, if i met a grown person who still believed in santa clause.. i wouldn't waste my breath.

Because I feel like it.

I know there are some loonies out there, but I'm not one of them.. and I firmly beleive in God, Christ, and all of the covenant promises. I don't like it, but it's the truth, and I just gotta suck it up..

Wa-wa-waaaat?! You don't like God?

trust me, i really wish i could be an atheists sometimes.. but there is just too much bullsh*t involved in it.

Actually, there's not.
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ConservativePolitico
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8/6/2012 7:50:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
After he sent Christ there was no longer a need to overtly intervene.

Our sins are now covered (meaning we don't need acts of retribution and punishment.)
The story has been well documented and spread.
Christ was the final act.
tvellalott
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8/6/2012 7:59:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:45:45 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/6/2012 7:40:45 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I see where you're coming from Mirza and I expected this response...

...which is why I gave examples of an overt God directly from the Bible. I'm admittedly even less familiar with the actions of Allah than I am with Yahweh. If he doesn't overtly display his power in your holy books, this doesn't really apply to Muslims.
My argument applies to both sides. When God punished cities (i.e., their inhabitants) in the past and made His presence rather obvious, that was because evidence for Him was less evident in the past. Material about the true religion was not widespread like today, and one had to struggle much harder to believe. If you doubt today, you can easily get a copy of your Holy Book and strengthen your Faith. This was not the case in ancient times.

I could go in-depth, but you get my point I think.

I do and I'll just agree to disagree with you. The Holy Books are (in my opinion) highly questionable accounts of events which occurred several hundred generations ago and aren't remotely convincing.
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tvellalott
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8/6/2012 8:01:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:50:23 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
After he sent Christ there was no longer a need to overtly intervene.

Our sins are now covered (meaning we don't need acts of retribution and punishment.)
The story has been well documented and spread.
Christ was the final act.

And then two thousand years pass and certain individuals rightfully start to question the validity of the claims. Other prophets come and go, casting aspersions on the older religious figures.

It's time for a mo'fo'ing fire and brimstone refresher course.
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Paradox_7
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8/6/2012 8:05:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 7:50:15 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 7:44:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/6/2012 7:13:40 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OVERT: "Done or shown openly; plainly or readily apparent, not secret or hidden."

P1: According to the Bible, God has revealed himself overtly many times in the past.

He's...
...Flooded the entire Earth
...Rained fire upon 'sinful' cities
...Impregnated woman with his 'holy spirit'
...Risen the dead


P2: God has not revealed himself overtly in recent history.

We, the Human race, have gotten increasingly better at recording events. Yet, in the past thousand years nothing remotely like the above has occurred. Many, many of you may argue against this point. You may say that you have personally felt God in your lives... The key word here is OVERT.

P3: There exist people who honestly don't believe in a Biblical God.

Despite what some may believe, I think this is obvious.
-----

So, given Christian scripture shows God has no problem intervening in the world, why has God stopped revealing himself overtly? If it violates free will to reveal himself, why did he so openly destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (just for example)? Didn't speaking to Noah and then ACTUALLY FLOODING THE EARTH violate Noah's free will? Didn't Jesus violate all of the disciples free will by performing miracles in front of them?

This kind of blatant problem is why I'm brazen in my Atheism, growing increasingly certain of my conviction that God doesn't exist and is simply a story that has grown out of hand through cultural heritage; an unfalsifiable Santa Clause for adults, with the keeper of the secret (Santa doesn't exist) lost long ago.

Feel free to contest any of my points (particularly P2, which I think is the main point of contention here.) I'm no Biblical scholar and I may very well be missing something here which explains the change from overt to secret God...


You are correct.. you are missing something.. a big something.

All of God's intervention, which was really only known by those he chose to reveal it, was purposed to fill the bible (the word, son). I'm pretty sure, the people of Soddom and Gamorrah just thought the fire was just a freak accident.. someone dopped a lamp on some hay or something. Doesn't really matter.

Freak accidents usually don't destroy 4 cities with (sic) 'fire and brimstone'.


Hmm, so you are saying certain natural disaters (katrina, haiti's), are more likely to be from divine influence.

There is no free-will, and God's hand is either involved-- thus having certain purposed results, or his hand is removed which also causes certain purposed results (leaving him without moral responsibility).

Wut?

don't understand, no free-will ehh? yeah.. no such thing, welcome to the real world.

If you believe that God is a just a fictional being, like santa clause, then why do you even bother talking about it? seriously, if i met a grown person who still believed in santa clause.. i wouldn't waste my breath.

Because I feel like it.

more like cause you're full of it.. no offense >.<

I know there are some loonies out there, but I'm not one of them.. and I firmly beleive in God, Christ, and all of the covenant promises. I don't like it, but it's the truth, and I just gotta suck it up..

Wa-wa-waaaat?! You don't like God?

Don't like.. ha, try hate. God forces me to believe in him, and forcefully brings me to repentance..

trust me, i really wish i could be an atheists sometimes.. but there is just too much bullsh*t involved in it.

Actually, there's not.

ok..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
tvellalott
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8/6/2012 8:13:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 8:05:14 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Hmm, so you are saying certain natural disaters (katrina, haiti's), are more likely to be from divine influence.

They're natural disasters. Not http://en.wikipedia.org...
Take Pompeii for example. If it could be demonstrated that no volcanic activity could have possibly caused it's destruction and that the 'fire and brimstone' that buried it came from some other, unknown source, that would be strong evidence of a supernatural disaster. Katrina and Haiti can be explained through scientific means.

don't understand, no free-will ehh? yeah.. no such thing, welcome to the real world.

I'm sorry, but what you wrote doesn't make sense to me.

more like cause you're full of it.. no offense >.<

Herr herr, you're so clever. I like discussing religion, even though I don't believe in any sort of God, because I'm fascinated by what I believe is intellectual dishonesty on a massive scale. I simply don't get it, yet billions of people do. I'm striving to understand... why?

Don't like.. ha, try hate. God forces me to believe in him, and forcefully brings me to repentance..

...I thought you said you weren't a loony.

trust me, i really wish i could be an atheists sometimes.. but there is just too much bullsh*t involved in it.

Actually, there's not.

ok..

Well, please explain what you mean by that comment... What 'bullsh!t' is involved in Atheism?
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phantom
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8/6/2012 11:19:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You're arguing from ignorance. You have no idea about Gods possibles plans nor the fvcking slightest grasp of his nature. (Not that I believe in the Christian God)
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tvellalott
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8/6/2012 11:30:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:19:02 PM, phantom wrote:
You're arguing from ignorance.

I am? :O
I don't think I am...

You have no idea about Gods possibles plans nor the fvcking slightest grasp of his nature. (Not that I believe in the Christian God)

Actually, if I'm talking about the Christian God (which I am), then I have a good idea about his motives and methods... ya'know, from the Bible?
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phantom
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8/6/2012 11:44:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:30:50 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:19:02 PM, phantom wrote:
You're arguing from ignorance.

I am? :O
I don't think I am...

You have no idea about Gods possibles plans nor the fvcking slightest grasp of his nature. (Not that I believe in the Christian God)

Actually, if I'm talking about the Christian God (which I am), then I have a good idea about his motives and methods... ya'know, from the Bible?

Ok what is his plan?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tvellalott
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8/7/2012 12:02:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:44:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:30:50 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:19:02 PM, phantom wrote:
You're arguing from ignorance.

I am? :O
I don't think I am...

You have no idea about Gods possibles plans nor the fvcking slightest grasp of his nature. (Not that I believe in the Christian God)

Actually, if I'm talking about the Christian God (which I am), then I have a good idea about his motives and methods... ya'know, from the Bible?

Ok what is his plan?

Now who is committing fallacies? I don't know what his 'plan' is, nor did I say I did, nor did you mention a plan up until now. You can take your red herring question and stick up your nose.
Would you argue that one can't understand God's motives and methods through the Bible? I doubt it.

I'm merely asking the question; if, as the Bible suggests, God has overtly revealed himself in the past, why hasn't he revealed himself more recently?

If all you have to add is douchebaggery, then I'm not interested.
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phantom
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8/7/2012 11:35:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 12:02:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:44:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:30:50 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:19:02 PM, phantom wrote:
You're arguing from ignorance.

I am? :O
I don't think I am...

You have no idea about Gods possibles plans nor the fvcking slightest grasp of his nature. (Not that I believe in the Christian God)

Actually, if I'm talking about the Christian God (which I am), then I have a good idea about his motives and methods... ya'know, from the Bible?

Ok what is his plan?

Now who is committing fallacies? I don't know what his 'plan' is, nor did I say I did, nor did you mention a plan up until now. You can take your red herring question and stick up your nose.

I have to appoligize. What I meant to say was what are his motives and methods. It was late and my mind was on something else so I for some reason wrote plan since I mentioned it earlier. Although motives is actually pretty similar to plan...

(And I did actually mention plan in my last post FYI)

Would you argue that one can't understand God's motives and methods through the Bible? I doubt it.

As stated, we know very little about his plans or motives. Thus all speculation on why he's not showing up is merely speculation and nothing argumentive. He's an omnipotent, omniscient ultimate ruler. How the heck would I know why he does what he does?

I'm merely asking the question; if, as the Bible suggests, God has overtly revealed himself in the past, why hasn't he revealed himself more recently?

If all you have to add is douchebaggery, then I'm not interested.

I made a simple mistake, but I honestly have no idea how I'm being a douchebag even if it was intential. I'm merely trying to sprinboard a discussion. You say you have a good idea about his motives and methods. I want to know what they are.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tvellalott
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8/7/2012 11:43:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I was a bit aggressive yesterday phantom and I apologise.

As for his motives and motivations, I suppose I don't really know and I may have misspoken by suggesting I did. We do however have a book which I was under the impression gave a detailed account of God's interactions with man, namely the Bible.
Much like I can surmise the methods and motivations of Harry Potter from the books of the same name, I believed I could know something about this character called God based on the stories of the Bible.

Is this an erroneous belief?
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phantom
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8/8/2012 12:01:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 11:43:09 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I was a bit aggressive yesterday phantom and I apologise.

No worries. I've often had to make the same apology myself.

As for his motives and motivations, I suppose I don't really know and I may have misspoken by suggesting I did. We do however have a book which I was under the impression gave a detailed account of God's interactions with man, namely the Bible.
Much like I can surmise the methods and motivations of Harry Potter from the books of the same name, I believed I could know something about this character called God based on the stories of the Bible.

It is true that the Christian God interacts with man many times in the past. But that's because he had a purpose. He interacted because he had a reason to interact; a plan. Now maybe he does not have any reason to, or it would be intirely contrary to his motives. But we have no idea what his motives could be so we can only make mere speculations as to why he doesn't. We don't need to offer a theory as to why he doesn't intervene because the supreme ruler of all things is simply unknowable.

Is this an erroneous belief?

I think it might overall offer some skepticism to God, but like the problem of evil, I don't think it offers anything much significant.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tvellalott
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8/8/2012 12:23:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 12:01:48 AM, phantom wrote:
It is true that the Christian God interacts with man many times in the past. But that's because he had a purpose. He interacted because he had a reason to interact; a plan. Now maybe he does not have any reason to, or it would be intirely contrary to his motives. But we have no idea what his motives could be so we can only make mere speculations as to why he doesn't. We don't need to offer a theory as to why he doesn't intervene because the supreme ruler of all things is simply unknowable.

Well, I made this thread as a platform for discussion. I was driving in my car, thinking about stuff as a I usually do and it occurred to me that the God of the Bible doesn't seem like the type to simply let man get on with it. He seems to be always testing people, praising the righteous and punishing the wicked, then Christ ascended to Heaven promising something or other would happen...

...and nothing has happened in 2000 years.

Is this an erroneous belief?

I think it might overall offer some skepticism to God, but like the problem of evil, I don't think it offers anything much significant.

No, I agree... For all my research, nothing has struck me as a home-run for either 'side' of this debate... I'm obviously biased and enjoy listening to notable speakers who I also agree with. From a philosophical perspective, I'm still very much agnostic about the existence of an omni-max being; I believe one has to be if they want to be intellectually honest. However the Christian God in particular perplexes me... I just don't get it how you can believe the Bible is divinely inspired. I've said this many times before; to the unfaithful, it seems like bronze age fairy tales to teach an antiquated (and, imho, bogus) moral code.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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phantom
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8/8/2012 10:08:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 12:23:24 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/8/2012 12:01:48 AM, phantom wrote:
It is true that the Christian God interacts with man many times in the past. But that's because he had a purpose. He interacted because he had a reason to interact; a plan. Now maybe he does not have any reason to, or it would be intirely contrary to his motives. But we have no idea what his motives could be so we can only make mere speculations as to why he doesn't. We don't need to offer a theory as to why he doesn't intervene because the supreme ruler of all things is simply unknowable.

Well, I made this thread as a platform for discussion. I was driving in my car, thinking about stuff as a I usually do and it occurred to me that the God of the Bible doesn't seem like the type to simply let man get on with it. He seems to be always testing people, praising the righteous and punishing the wicked, then Christ ascended to Heaven promising something or other would happen...

...and nothing has happened in 2000 years.

You seemed to view the argument more strongly initially, but I've basically said all I have to say. I agree that the Christian God doesn't really seem like the type to just disappear for a long time so it does offer some skepticism, but not much imo.

Is this an erroneous belief?

I think it might overall offer some skepticism to God, but like the problem of evil, I don't think it offers anything much significant.

No, I agree... For all my research, nothing has struck me as a home-run for either 'side' of this debate... I'm obviously biased and enjoy listening to notable speakers who I also agree with. From a philosophical perspective, I'm still very much agnostic about the existence of an omni-max being; I believe one has to be if they want to be intellectually honest. However the Christian God in particular perplexes me... I just don't get it how you can believe the Bible is divinely inspired. I've said this many times before; to the unfaithful, it seems like bronze age fairy tales to teach an antiquated (and, imho, bogus) moral code.

As stated, I am not a Christian but I used to be and I believe it is much easier to understand that viewpoint being an apostate of it. I actually respect Christianity and don't believe it is irrational, you just have to stray from the more typical Christian beliefs usually. I didn't even accept all the books of the Bible when I was a Christian since why should I trust some council who gathered a few hundred years ago to form the Bible to be infallible? I mainly focused on the gospels since they are, I believe, the essence of Christianity, but I didn't believe they were inerrant (though I actually believed some sections of the Bible might be). I think I held rationally justifiable belief and am not in any way intellectually ashamed of my past faith, in fact I'd like to return if I could. But I have to admit, that's mainly for reasons pertaining to the depression skepticism causes on me. My personality is one that naturally wrestles with the meaningless of existence.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tvellalott
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8/8/2012 11:36:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I like to keep an upbeat attitude about the meaningless of life. It doesn't have to be depressing.

+1 phantom, you are added to the 'TV list of people who's posts are worth reading."
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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phantom
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8/8/2012 11:43:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/8/2012 11:36:16 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I like to keep an upbeat attitude about the meaningless of life. It doesn't have to be depressing.

Meh, it's just the way my mind works.

+1 phantom, you are added to the 'TV list of people who's posts are worth reading."

Haha, thanks! And I've always found your posts worth reading btw :)
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rational_Thinker9119
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8/9/2012 4:36:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 11:35:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/7/2012 12:02:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:44:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:30:50 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:19:02 PM, phantom wrote:
You're arguing from ignorance.

I am? :O
I don't think I am...

You have no idea about Gods possibles plans nor the fvcking slightest grasp of his nature. (Not that I believe in the Christian God)

Actually, if I'm talking about the Christian God (which I am), then I have a good idea about his motives and methods... ya'know, from the Bible?

Ok what is his plan?

Now who is committing fallacies? I don't know what his 'plan' is, nor did I say I did, nor did you mention a plan up until now. You can take your red herring question and stick up your nose.

I have to appoligize. What I meant to say was what are his motives and methods. It was late and my mind was on something else so I for some reason wrote plan since I mentioned it earlier. Although motives is actually pretty similar to plan...

(And I did actually mention plan in my last post FYI)

Would you argue that one can't understand God's motives and methods through the Bible? I doubt it.

As stated, we know very little about his plans or motives. Thus all speculation on why he's not showing up is merely speculation and nothing argumentive. He's an omnipotent, omniscient ultimate ruler. How the heck would I know why he does what he does?
Ummm, you should pick up a read a little book called The Bible. If you read it, you can learn many things about this God character!

Come on dude..

I'm merely asking the question; if, as the Bible suggests, God has overtly revealed himself in the past, why hasn't he revealed himself more recently?

If all you have to add is douchebaggery, then I'm not interested.

I made a simple mistake, but I honestly have no idea how I'm being a douchebag even if it was intential. I'm merely trying to sprinboard a discussion. You say you have a good idea about his motives and methods. I want to know what they are.
SuburbiaSurvivor
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8/9/2012 4:49:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Unless non-interference from God is required for the fulfillment of our purpose ;)
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
Paradox_7
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8/9/2012 6:44:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 8:13:15 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/6/2012 8:05:14 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Hmm, so you are saying certain natural disaters (katrina, haiti's), are more likely to be from divine influence.

They're natural disasters. Not http://en.wikipedia.org...
Take Pompeii for example. If it could be demonstrated that no volcanic activity could have possibly caused it's destruction and that the 'fire and brimstone' that buried it came from some other, unknown source, that would be strong evidence of a supernatural disaster. Katrina and Haiti can be explained through scientific means.

So what you are implying, is that if there is an explanation that we can understand, it can't be God. Only if it has been observed, and no actual explantion has been found; seems like this is a set up for the God of the gaps.

Either way, you for some reason think that science is like an opposing force to God, or to Christianity.. Science is a tool for humans to learn about the natural world, and it's awesome.. it's always improving, so you know there are a ton of things that we may beleive right now that are due to change upon further research.. None of this even attempts to refute God; the furthest it can go is to explain how God may have made something-- to describe, to the best of our ability, what the purpose God had of each observable or conceivable object...

don't understand, no free-will ehh? yeah.. no such thing, welcome to the real world.

I'm sorry, but what you wrote doesn't make sense to me.

more like cause you're full of it.. no offense >.<

Herr herr, you're so clever. I like discussing religion, even though I don't believe in any sort of God, because I'm fascinated by what I believe is intellectual dishonesty on a massive scale. I simply don't get it, yet billions of people do. I'm striving to understand... why?

Don't like.. ha, try hate. God forces me to believe in him, and forcefully brings me to repentance..

...I thought you said you weren't a loony.

-_- you must be kidding...

trust me, i really wish i could be an atheists sometimes.. but there is just too much bullsh*t involved in it.

Actually, there's not.

ok..

Well, please explain what you mean by that comment... What 'bullsh!t' is involved in Atheism?


First, is the denial that us humans are far beyond the explanation of natural process.. I believe that the world simply screams that it's been designed, and that any assertion of purely natural causes is hilariously immature and stuborn.

Second, on a more personal level, None of the athiests i've encountered ever admit that there theories are excuses to negate the most popular morals; it seems they are too scared to say it-- further more no one who's such 'true' believer in such is any different then anyone else.. some are nice people, and some are douche bags.
But the fact that none of the atheists can hold their tongue when even speaking of morality, and none of them actually live a life-style that demonstrates an unusually different set of morals (aside from the very usual and recurring differences), makes me shout out: BULLSH**T!!...

Third, it seems the atheist philosophy (I am referring to mere atheism), is a maze with plenty of escape routes and detours, but with no actual depth, and no actual escape from the maze itself. It's a fruitless cycle of rhetoric that produces only fickle minds who have no actual subtance or foundation.

With all of that said, I still see the appeal, it's not something i am naturally opposed too. Like i said before, i'd prefer to be an atheist-- that is, I yern for self-pupose, and no accountability. I wish i could be so lost.. then i would have an excuse to embrace my sinful nature wholey, instead of be put to battle with it everyday..

I am a slave to Christ.. (1 Cor. 7:22)

If you believe that it crazy for me to say such a thing, I say it's crazy to have so much pride. It's crazy to think that the enigma of man is anything short of miraculous. I think it's crazy to have to much confidence in things that are within our grasp to understand a lone.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.