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This is not Kosher

TheFogHorn
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8/11/2012 2:56:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
So you think it's ok to slaughter an animal without prior stunning, just because stunning would be against someone's religion?

Watch this video 'till then end then.....so you know the price animals pay.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/11/2012 6:26:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 2:56:08 AM, TheFogHorn wrote:


So you think it's ok to slaughter an animal without prior stunning, just because stunning would be against someone's religion?

Watch this video 'till then end then.....so you know the price animals pay.

The Fool: That is pretty bruttal. But they Re-Interpret that into meaning something else. So what ever the re-interpret it too mean is what is really true.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/11/2012 6:34:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 6:26:43 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/11/2012 2:56:08 AM, TheFogHorn wrote:


So you think it's ok to slaughter an animal without prior stunning, just because stunning would be against someone's religion?

Watch this video 'till then end then.....so you know the price animals pay.


The Fool: That is pretty bruttal. But they Re-Interpret that into meaning something else. So whatever the new re-interpretation is the new fact. And then when that is wrong they will do another Re-interpretation only when it become to ridiculas or horrible to believe. Everybody avoids threads when they are too obviously a challange and refutation.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
TheFogHorn
Posts: 183
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8/11/2012 7:14:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes, that is true. Where are all the people who claim to be better than atheists now? What rock are they hiding under? How can they defend something like this? An animal not only taking far longer to die than they would had they been killed in a 'non-kosher' way but also KNOWING they are dying for a very very long time.

This is truly disgusting and as it's done in the name of religion......another reason why I hate religion. Manmade rules based on imaginery gods that need to be exposed for what they are and for humanity and the animal world to reastablish itself as honest, genuine, forward thinking and free from cruelty.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/11/2012 7:19:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is NOT "Kosher".

And I mean that in the literal and figurative sense.

Clearly this is barbaric and awful, and anyone who watches this should have a natural compulsion to be sickened by it.

That said, this video is anti-Jew BS.

The entire point of the kosher method of slaughter is so that the animal suffers as little as possible.

The knife used to slice the throat of the animal must be sharpened so much and so particularly that if you were to run your fingernail down the blade and feel any nick in it, it would not be valid for 'kosher' slaughter.

The reason for this is so that the knife cuts surely and cleanly so that the animal dies as quickly as possible. It would not be a valid 'kosher' slaughter if the animal was writing around in pain following the ritual 'slice'.

Any animal that is blemished in any way prior or during the 'shechting' (Kosher slaughter) process (other than what is specifically for the process and needed to do the process) is NOT kosher. So dumping an animal out of a holding machine would necessarily cause such a blemish, and not be a part of the 'kosher slaughtering' process.

http://www.wikihow.com...

The content of this video is sick, and so is the video creator's intent to propagandize against Jews.
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airmax1227
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8/11/2012 7:41:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 7:14:32 PM, TheFogHorn wrote:
Yes, that is true. Where are all the people who claim to be better than atheists now? What rock are they hiding under? How can they defend something like this? An animal not only taking far longer to die than they would had they been killed in a 'non-kosher' way but also KNOWING they are dying for a very very long time.

This is truly disgusting and as it's done in the name of religion......another reason why I hate religion. Manmade rules based on imaginery gods that need to be exposed for what they are and for humanity and the animal world to reastablish itself as honest, genuine, forward thinking and free from cruelty.

I'm not a big fan of religion, or really any belief system that separates people and incites hatred. So that would include whatever it is that you believe in. Get a grip on your hatred and do some simple research before you begin spouting nonsense. Whatever it is that is happening in this video has nothing to do with religion.
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TheFogHorn
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8/11/2012 8:13:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What a pair of wishful thinking religion pandering fools you are!

No matter how sharp the knife, the animal will take several minutes to die. A sharp knife will just mean a cleaner cut. A cut is a cut. It makes no difference to how long it takes for the animal to lose consciousness. It still suffocates on its own blood, still attempts to breath with its eyes popping out of its head and still knows its time is up. I can't believe how anyone could turn the tables on the person exposing this ghastly practice rather than taking a closer look at it and making a fair judgement without prejudism favouring the cut throat slaughterer and his religion.

What do you think to this?

The dolphins die in the same way as the cows in the kosher slaughter house. If it's not ok to do that to dolphins then it's not ok to do that to cows.

It is totally and utterly unacceptable to make an animal die in a way that causes it to know it is dying, to make it struggle to survive once it's started to die and to make its death drawn out any longer and in a more awake state than necessary.

The religious rule about an animal not being permitted to be slaughtered if it had anything wrong with it, which hideous people have decided 'stunned' is, is similar to the religious rule disallowing disabled people from approaching the altar in a church, according to the OT.

Leviticus...

21:17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
21:18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

If you agree with Jews that it is ok to not stun an animal for religious reasons then you must also think it's ok to prevent a blind man from approaching an altar.

I would be ashamed of myself if I didn't hate this kind of primitive barbarity.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/11/2012 8:41:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 7:19:46 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
This is NOT "Kosher".

And I mean that in the literal and figurative sense.

Clearly this is barbaric and awful, and anyone who watches this should have a natural compulsion to be sickened by it.

That said, this video is anti-Jew BS.

The entire point of the kosher method of slaughter is so that the animal suffers as little as possible.

The knife used to slice the throat of the animal must be sharpened so much and so particularly that if you were to run your fingernail down the blade and feel any nick in it, it would not be valid for 'kosher' slaughter.

The reason for this is so that the knife cuts surely and cleanly so that the animal dies as quickly as possible. It would not be a valid 'kosher' slaughter if the animal was writing around in pain following the ritual 'slice'.

Any animal that is blemished in any way prior or during the 'shechting' (Kosher slaughter) process (other than what is specifically for the process and needed to do the process) is NOT kosher. So dumping an animal out of a holding machine would necessarily cause such a blemish, and not be a part of the 'kosher slaughtering' process.

http://www.wikihow.com...

The content of this video is sick, and so is the video creator's intent to propagandize against Jews.

The Fool: No No No. They said when that happens its not longer considered Kosher. That is just a re-interpretation of the Definition Kosher. That does't effect any reality of the Fact. AKA some people don't name it Kosher when it happens. No problem getting one past you. Unless you know them personally and do special unjustified Favours right.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/11/2012 8:41:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: I know your game.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
airmax1227
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8/11/2012 8:41:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 8:13:48 PM, TheFogHorn wrote:
What a pair of wishful thinking religion pandering fools you are!

Who are you referring to?

No matter how sharp the knife, the animal will take several minutes to die. A sharp knife will just mean a cleaner cut. A cut is a cut. It makes no difference to how long it takes for the animal to lose consciousness. It still suffocates on its own blood, still attempts to breath with its eyes popping out of its head and still knows its time is up. I can't believe how anyone could turn the tables on the person exposing this ghastly practice rather than taking a closer look at it and making a fair judgement without prejudism favouring the cut throat slaughterer and his religion.

The rules for Kosher slaughter require:

"Cut the esophagus, trachea, carotid arteries, and jugular veins in one quick incision. The incision must not at all pull or tear. If done correctly, the animal will die within 2 seconds."


What do you think to this?

I'm not sure what your point is. Cruelty to animals isn't cool. You attempted to make this video you posted somehow anti-religion when it isn't.



The dolphins die in the same way as the cows in the kosher slaughter house. If it's not ok to do that to dolphins then it's not ok to do that to cows.


I'm not arguing whether or not it's ok. I'm just saying the video you posted has nothing to do with kosher slaughter or religion. Also no dolphin has ever been slaughtered in kosher slaughter house. Dolphins are not kosher.

It is totally and utterly unacceptable to make an animal die in a way that causes it to know it is dying, to make it struggle to survive once it's started to die and to make its death drawn out any longer and in a more awake state than necessary.


I agree. The video you posted is awful. But it has nothing to do with kosher slaughter.

The religious rule about an animal not being permitted to be slaughtered if it had anything wrong with it, which hideous people have decided 'stunned' is, is similar to the religious rule disallowing disabled people from approaching the altar in a church, according to the OT.


I have no opinion on any of this, I was just pointing out that what you posted had nothing to do with kosher slaughter. I'm not endorsing 'kosher slaughter' I'm just pointing out that what you posted was OBVIOUSLY not what you thought it was.

Leviticus...

21:17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
21:18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

If you agree with Jews that it is ok to not stun an animal for religious reasons then you must also think it's ok to prevent a blind man from approaching an altar.


I don't agree with anyone about anything, and I couldn't care less if a blind man approaches an alter... I just know that I disagree with whatever it is that you are asserting here. If what you are actually asserting is that religion is evil, fine. Just choose something not blatantly intended to misinform.

I would be ashamed of myself if I didn't hate this kind of primitive barbarity.

I never endorsed any type of animal slaughter, I just pointed out that you associated something with religion, that had nothing to do with religion.

Feel free to keep hating religion (if you must hate), just do 5 seconds of research to make sure what you are ranting about is genuine and accurate.
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Lordknukle
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8/11/2012 8:46:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let's try some contrarian magic here:

Aside from your primitive emotional response to this video, why is killing and torturing animals bad? After all, morals come from society and if society says that X is O.K (killing animals), then it is O.K.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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8/11/2012 8:50:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
How about learn something about religion before attacking it? I've seen you troll other forums this way...
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
MouthWash
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8/11/2012 8:51:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just Google "TheFogHorn."
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/11/2012 8:52:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 8:41:05 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/11/2012 7:19:46 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
This is NOT "Kosher".

And I mean that in the literal and figurative sense.

Clearly this is barbaric and awful, and anyone who watches this should have a natural compulsion to be sickened by it.

That said, this video is anti-Jew BS.

The entire point of the kosher method of slaughter is so that the animal suffers as little as possible.

The knife used to slice the throat of the animal must be sharpened so much and so particularly that if you were to run your fingernail down the blade and feel any nick in it, it would not be valid for 'kosher' slaughter.

The reason for this is so that the knife cuts surely and cleanly so that the animal dies as quickly as possible. It would not be a valid 'kosher' slaughter if the animal was writing around in pain following the ritual 'slice'.

Any animal that is blemished in any way prior or during the 'shechting' (Kosher slaughter) process (other than what is specifically for the process and needed to do the process) is NOT kosher. So dumping an animal out of a holding machine would necessarily cause such a blemish, and not be a part of the 'kosher slaughtering' process.

http://www.wikihow.com...

The content of this video is sick, and so is the video creator's intent to propagandize against Jews.

The Fool: No No No. They said when that happens its not longer considered Kosher. That is just a re-interpretation of the Definition Kosher. That does't effect any reality of the Fact. AKA some people don't name it Kosher when it happens. No problem getting one past you. Unless you know them personally and do special unjustified Favours right.

A 'Kosher slaughterhouse' could not perform these practices because then it could not sell the meat as "Kosher". There is a long and detailed process for "kosher certification" that requires all of the traditional means to be followed. If any of them are "changed" then it no longer is "Kosher".

However, you are accurate on the point that instances occur in which the kosher slaughter house has to deem product "not kosher" and thus it transfers those pieces to places that sell them. But this is not part of its common practices as depicted in the video and is only part of the excess (parts of the animal that are not kosher), or where an animal is not kosher prior or following the same kosher slaughtering procedure.

The point is that practices shown in the video can not take place in a kosher slaughter house, and still have that place be considered a kosher slaughter house. Perhaps in one wing of the factory there is "kosher slaughter" going on, and in another, (and separate) wing "non kosher" slaughter going on, but then it still has nothing to do with "kosher slaughter". But I digress, this is just semantics. The rules of kosher are very specific and any change to them is not considered "kosher", no matter what someone decides to actually call it.
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airmax1227
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8/11/2012 8:54:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 8:46:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Let's try some contrarian magic here:

Aside from your primitive emotional response to this video, why is killing and torturing animals bad? After all, morals come from society and if society says that X is O.K (killing animals), then it is O.K.

Meh.. I can concede that animal cruelty is wrong and still find plenty wrong with what was posted by the OP.

Also people who abuse animals as children are far more likely to become sociopaths when they are older. I'll try to find a link for this...
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TheFogHorn
Posts: 183
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8/11/2012 9:34:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) found in its 2003 Report on the Welfare of Farmed Animals at Slaughter or Killing found

"When a very large transverse incision is made across the neck a number of vital

tissues are transected including: skin, muscle, trachea, oesophagus, carotid arteries,

jugular veins, major nerve trunks (e.g. vagus and phrenic nerves) plus numerous minor nerves. Such a drastic cut will inevitably trigger a barrage of sensory information to the brain in a sensible (conscious) animal. We are persuaded that such a massive injury would result in very significant pain and distress in the period before insensibility supervenes."

The agony of death by cutting the throat was rated by medical experts only second to that by burning.

Furthermore, a separate study of brain response after Shechita (Jewish ) slaughter of cattle compared to that after captive-bolt stunning indicated responses for up to 60 seconds in the former and no response in the latter.

Mike
"I have been working for well over forty years and that's a lot of killing. I have seen Kosher and Halal carried out in many different places and I've assisted. It disgusts me… Jewish Shechita slaughter is just a sick joke. They claim they kill with one cut but with the bigger animals it never is. The Shochet slices backwards and forwards and it can take as many as 20 cuts and the animal obviously feels real pain. It can take minutes to lose consciousness."

D.K. Blackmore (22) of the Dept. of Veterinary Pathology and Public Health, Massey University, New Zealand who has published many papers on slaughter states:
"A BASIC requirement for humane slaughter is that an animal should be rendered insensible before exsanguination (bleeding) is initiated and this should last until the animal becomes permanently insensible from cerebral anoxia."

calves were standing up to 135 seconds after their throat was cut and were attempting to stand up to 385 seconds after that.

Even though the calves had both carotid arteries and jugular veins severed three out of four were breathing up to 11.6 minutes later and so were shot. Lambs were gasping for up to 3.8 minutes after carotid arteries and jugular veins were cut. A bull was killed by the Jewish method and was still gasping sporadically for seven minutes after his carotid arteries, jugular veins, oesophagus and trachea were cut.

Agriproccessors, a kosher slaughterhouse (THE ONE IN THE VIDEO I POSTED) in Iowa that was owned by Aaron Rubashkin and managed by two of his sons, Sholom Rubashkin and Heshy Rubashkin. Eventually it became the largest kosher meat-packing plant in the United States.

All the above taken from here....

http://www.natalt.org...

Do any of you think it's in animals' best interests to potentially face a death that includes staggering about, choking on your own blood and knowing you are dying for 3.8 minutes????? Please stop what you are doing and time yourself sitting doing nothing for even just ONE minute....and then imagine the suffering.

It is irrelevant whether or not this JEWISH slaughterhouse meets with Kosher regulations. There is no way any slaughterhouse will meet Koshur regulations perfectly all of the time. Going by the evidence from this slaughterhouse, it seems they are rarely met. That means one thing......the animals should be stunned prior to slaughter. That would be what is in the best interests of animals and I cannot see any detriment, other than religious sensitivities, to humans.
TheFogHorn
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8/11/2012 9:38:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
'A bull was killed by the Jewish method and was still gasping sporadically for seven minutes after his carotid arteries, jugular veins, oesophagus and trachea were cut.'

Never never never should this be allowed to happen.
airmax1227
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8/11/2012 10:06:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You are making a great effort at deflecting from my point, which is that you posted a video that was not of a Kosher slaughter house so that you could say it was a kosher slaughter house, and in doing so indict religion as evil. The video has nothing at all to do with religion or Kosher.

Religion and kosher slaughter houses might be evil, it's really irrelevant. The video you posted was not of a kosher slaughter house, and thus the emotional reaction one gets from seeing that video should not equate to your goal, which was to cause a reactionary conclusion that Judaism, and religion by extension, is evil. Both might be true, I don't really care. But this video was intentionally created to misinform.
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YYW
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8/11/2012 10:29:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 10:06:43 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
You are making a great effort at deflecting from my point, which is that you posted a video that was not of a Kosher slaughter house so that you could say it was a kosher slaughter house, and in doing so indict religion as evil. The video has nothing at all to do with religion or Kosher.

Religion and kosher slaughter houses might be evil, it's really irrelevant. The video you posted was not of a kosher slaughter house, and thus the emotional reaction one gets from seeing that video should not equate to your goal, which was to cause a reactionary conclusion that Judaism, and religion by extension, is evil. Both might be true, I don't really care. But this video was intentionally created to misinform.

I have read much of this thread, and this doesn't interest me. The atheist who devotes their life to assailing religion is no different then the rat who justifies to himself that he is better off for having been kicked off the ship. It's petulance in response to a lack of understanding.

But Airmax, I don't see that you'll get much of anywhere with FogHorn. Her purpose on here is to let the blood of theism. No more, or less.
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TheFogHorn
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8/11/2012 10:31:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 10:06:43 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
You are making a great effort at deflecting from my point, which is that you posted a video that was not of a Kosher slaughter house so that you could say it was a kosher slaughter house, and in doing so indict religion as evil. The video has nothing at all to do with religion or Kosher.

Religion and kosher slaughter houses might be evil, it's really irrelevant. The video you posted was not of a kosher slaughter house, and thus the emotional reaction one gets from seeing that video should not equate to your goal, which was to cause a reactionary conclusion that Judaism, and religion by extension, is evil. Both might be true, I don't really care. But this video was intentionally created to misinform.

I repeat....

'Agriproccessors, a kosher slaughterhouse (THE ONE IN THE VIDEO I POSTED) in Iowa that was owned by Aaron Rubashkin and managed by two of his sons, Sholom Rubashkin and Heshy Rubashkin. Eventually it became the largest kosher meat-packing plant in the United States.'

It says it's a Kosher slaughter house and it is/was the largest in the US. If that slaughterhouse isn't managing to be 'kosher' then the blatantly obvious answer is that kosher slaughter is not achievable on a large scale, maybe not even on a small scale. They are dealing with live animals that react differently and with human beings who work differently. It is never going to be an exact science. Therefore it is an unworkable method that leads, inevitably, to animal suffering.
airmax1227
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8/11/2012 10:43:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 10:29:38 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/11/2012 10:06:43 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
You are making a great effort at deflecting from my point, which is that you posted a video that was not of a Kosher slaughter house so that you could say it was a kosher slaughter house, and in doing so indict religion as evil. The video has nothing at all to do with religion or Kosher.

Religion and kosher slaughter houses might be evil, it's really irrelevant. The video you posted was not of a kosher slaughter house, and thus the emotional reaction one gets from seeing that video should not equate to your goal, which was to cause a reactionary conclusion that Judaism, and religion by extension, is evil. Both might be true, I don't really care. But this video was intentionally created to misinform.

I have read much of this thread, and this doesn't interest me. The atheist who devotes their life to assailing religion is no different then the rat who justifies to himself that he is better off for having been kicked off the ship. It's petulance in response to a lack of understanding.

But Airmax, I don't see that you'll get much of anywhere with FogHorn. Her purpose on here is to let the blood of theism. No more, or less.

I agree, and I'm not really trying to convince Foghorn of anything...
I'm just in the kind of mood that brought me to DDO in the first place I guess.. Any chance you wana do a 10 minute per round debate on the topic of your choice?
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YYW
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8/11/2012 10:47:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 10:43:16 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/11/2012 10:29:38 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/11/2012 10:06:43 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
You are making a great effort at deflecting from my point, which is that you posted a video that was not of a Kosher slaughter house so that you could say it was a kosher slaughter house, and in doing so indict religion as evil. The video has nothing at all to do with religion or Kosher.

Religion and kosher slaughter houses might be evil, it's really irrelevant. The video you posted was not of a kosher slaughter house, and thus the emotional reaction one gets from seeing that video should not equate to your goal, which was to cause a reactionary conclusion that Judaism, and religion by extension, is evil. Both might be true, I don't really care. But this video was intentionally created to misinform.

I have read much of this thread, and this doesn't interest me. The atheist who devotes their life to assailing religion is no different then the rat who justifies to himself that he is better off for having been kicked off the ship. It's petulance in response to a lack of understanding.

But Airmax, I don't see that you'll get much of anywhere with FogHorn. Her purpose on here is to let the blood of theism. No more, or less.

I agree, and I'm not really trying to convince Foghorn of anything...
I'm just in the kind of mood that brought me to DDO in the first place I guess.. Any chance you wana do a 10 minute per round debate on the topic of your choice?

I'm not good at picking topics. You pick one, and we'll see. I'm feeling kind of scrappy too. Insomnia and all.
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TheFogHorn
Posts: 183
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8/11/2012 10:50:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Agriprocessors, the kosher slaughterhouse in the video, gets the kosher stamp of approval....and the Israeli stamp of approval......

In a sweeping statement posted on its Web site (http://www.ou.org...), the
Orthodox Union expressed satisfaction with the schechita practices at the
Agriprocessors. The statement was signed by Rabbi Dr. Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, OU
Executive Vice President, and Rabbi Menachem Genack, OU Kashrut Rabbinic
Administrator. The OU statement noted: "When this story broke, several
rabbis, in Israel and Europe as well as in the United States, at first
commented negatively on the kashrut of this schechita. Almost all of them,
including the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, have now said that their initial
statements were based on misinformation, and have retracted them."

The statement continued: "After carefully studying the video, Rabbi
Menachem Genack, Rabbinic Administrator of the OU Kashrut Division, and Rabbi
Yisroel Belsky, one of its distinguished poskim (rabbinic decisors), traveled
to Postville, Iowa, to review the procedures at the AgriProcessors plant.
They found that these procedures meet all OU standards to the highest degree,
and that the shochtim (rabbinic slaughterers) are all highly proficient,
skilled and knowledgeable.

http://www.prnewswire.com...
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/11/2012 10:51:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 10:31:27 PM, TheFogHorn wrote:
At 8/11/2012 10:06:43 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
You are making a great effort at deflecting from my point, which is that you posted a video that was not of a Kosher slaughter house so that you could say it was a kosher slaughter house, and in doing so indict religion as evil. The video has nothing at all to do with religion or Kosher.

Religion and kosher slaughter houses might be evil, it's really irrelevant. The video you posted was not of a kosher slaughter house, and thus the emotional reaction one gets from seeing that video should not equate to your goal, which was to cause a reactionary conclusion that Judaism, and religion by extension, is evil. Both might be true, I don't really care. But this video was intentionally created to misinform.

I repeat....

'Agriproccessors, a kosher slaughterhouse (THE ONE IN THE VIDEO I POSTED) in Iowa that was owned by Aaron Rubashkin and managed by two of his sons, Sholom Rubashkin and Heshy Rubashkin. Eventually it became the largest kosher meat-packing plant in the United States.'

It says it's a Kosher slaughter house and it is/was the largest in the US. If that slaughterhouse isn't managing to be 'kosher' then the blatantly obvious answer is that kosher slaughter is not achievable on a large scale, maybe not even on a small scale. They are dealing with live animals that react differently and with human beings who work differently. It is never going to be an exact science. Therefore it is an unworkable method that leads, inevitably, to animal suffering.

Geez, if someone can't believe something they see on youtube, what can they believe... The fact that the video says it's some specific slaughter house means nothing... Slaughter of this type was not happening at a "kosher slaughter house" like the ones that formerly existed in Postville (and were owned by Rubashkin) because it would have lost it's "kosher license"... Kosher methods are under strict supervision by various people and if this was going on it would have been known immediately and could not have been under the label "kosher". Hence the video is just BS that you are determined to believe in for whatever reason.

The video is just some random slaughter house somewhere and has nothing to do with kosher slaughter houses in any way.
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TheFogHorn
Posts: 183
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8/11/2012 10:58:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Rabbi Ezra Raful said, "In the case of AgriProcessors, there is no
halachic problem." "For some people, what happens in a slaughterhouse looks pretty gruesome. But that does not make it non-kosher," he said.

Raful said AgriProcessors, the only US slaughterhouse authorized to
export to Israel.

Every claim of the humaneness of shechita (Jewish ritual slaughter) made by Orthodox rabbis in the last 100 years has been based on the schochet (ritual slaughterer) swiftly and painlessly severing the carotids and jugular vein. And every one of those claims are false. The halakha (Jewish law) that allows shechita to be kosher if only the greater parts of the trachea and esophogus are severed is based on a faulty understanding of large animal biology dating to medieval times. Yet Orthodox rabbis – who have lied about shechita for more than 100 years, including during sworn testimony before government bodies and courts – are more than willing to allow this animal torture, even though the science of the issue – and the law – are both clear.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com...
TheFogHorn
Posts: 183
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8/11/2012 10:59:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 10:51:59 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/11/2012 10:31:27 PM, TheFogHorn wrote:
At 8/11/2012 10:06:43 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
You are making a great effort at deflecting from my point, which is that you posted a video that was not of a Kosher slaughter house so that you could say it was a kosher slaughter house, and in doing so indict religion as evil. The video has nothing at all to do with religion or Kosher.

Religion and kosher slaughter houses might be evil, it's really irrelevant. The video you posted was not of a kosher slaughter house, and thus the emotional reaction one gets from seeing that video should not equate to your goal, which was to cause a reactionary conclusion that Judaism, and religion by extension, is evil. Both might be true, I don't really care. But this video was intentionally created to misinform.

I repeat....

'Agriproccessors, a kosher slaughterhouse (THE ONE IN THE VIDEO I POSTED) in Iowa that was owned by Aaron Rubashkin and managed by two of his sons, Sholom Rubashkin and Heshy Rubashkin. Eventually it became the largest kosher meat-packing plant in the United States.'

It says it's a Kosher slaughter house and it is/was the largest in the US. If that slaughterhouse isn't managing to be 'kosher' then the blatantly obvious answer is that kosher slaughter is not achievable on a large scale, maybe not even on a small scale. They are dealing with live animals that react differently and with human beings who work differently. It is never going to be an exact science. Therefore it is an unworkable method that leads, inevitably, to animal suffering.

Geez, if someone can't believe something they see on youtube, what can they believe... The fact that the video says it's some specific slaughter house means nothing... Slaughter of this type was not happening at a "kosher slaughter house" like the ones that formerly existed in Postville (and were owned by Rubashkin) because it would have lost it's "kosher license"... Kosher methods are under strict supervision by various people and if this was going on it would have been known immediately and could not have been under the label "kosher". Hence the video is just BS that you are determined to believe in for whatever reason.

The video is just some random slaughter house somewhere and has nothing to do with kosher slaughter houses in any way.

Agriprocessors, the kosher slaughterhouse in the video, gets the kosher stamp of approval....and the Israeli stamp of approval......

In a sweeping statement posted on its Web site (http://www.ou.org......), the
Orthodox Union expressed satisfaction with the schechita practices at the
Agriprocessors. The statement was signed by Rabbi Dr. Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, OU
Executive Vice President, and Rabbi Menachem Genack, OU Kashrut Rabbinic
Administrator. The OU statement noted: "When this story broke, several
rabbis, in Israel and Europe as well as in the United States, at first
commented negatively on the kashrut of this schechita. Almost all of them,
including the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, have now said that their initial
statements were based on misinformation, and have retracted them."

The statement continued: "After carefully studying the video, Rabbi
Menachem Genack, Rabbinic Administrator of the OU Kashrut Division, and Rabbi
Yisroel Belsky, one of its distinguished poskim (rabbinic decisors), traveled
to Postville, Iowa, to review the procedures at the AgriProcessors plant.
They found that these procedures meet all OU standards to the highest degree,
and that the shochtim (rabbinic slaughterers) are all highly proficient,
skilled and knowledgeable.

http://www.prnewswire.com......
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/11/2012 11:04:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/11/2012 10:50:50 PM, TheFogHorn wrote:
Agriprocessors, the kosher slaughterhouse in the video, gets the kosher stamp of approval....and the Israeli stamp of approval......

In a sweeping statement posted on its Web site (http://www.ou.org...), the
Orthodox Union expressed satisfaction with the schechita practices at the
Agriprocessors. The statement was signed by Rabbi Dr. Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, OU
Executive Vice President, and Rabbi Menachem Genack, OU Kashrut Rabbinic
Administrator. The OU statement noted: "When this story broke, several
rabbis, in Israel and Europe as well as in the United States, at first
commented negatively on the kashrut of this schechita. Almost all of them,
including the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, have now said that their initial
statements were based on misinformation, and have retracted them."

The statement continued: "After carefully studying the video, Rabbi
Menachem Genack, Rabbinic Administrator of the OU Kashrut Division, and Rabbi
Yisroel Belsky, one of its distinguished poskim (rabbinic decisors), traveled
to Postville, Iowa, to review the procedures at the AgriProcessors plant.
They found that these procedures meet all OU standards to the highest degree,
and that the shochtim (rabbinic slaughterers) are all highly proficient,
skilled and knowledgeable.

http://www.prnewswire.com...

There is nothing about this link that ties it to the video you posted. How do the rabbi's feel about the animal dumping machine? I'm sure they would have mentioned that if these 2 things were at all connected, and because it's a base violation of the ritual slaughter procedure.

(The video intentionally uses that controversial location to say that's where this blatant animal cruelty is happening because it has minor credibility.. But not enough to justify believing the activity appearing in the video, in contrast to that in the report.)

Obviously that process (kosher slaughter) isn't perfect, and killing animals is not exactly a family friendly activity. But that was never my point, which I'm tired of making at this point. The video is propaganda and unless you present something more than some words at the beginning of it that says its the location of a kosher slaughter house I'll continue to believe so. If you can prove the video isn't intended to misinform, and isn't obvious propaganda, I will apologize to you.
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/11/2012 11:11:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm probably just paranoid, but can we do an IP check on FogHorn and The_Fool?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault