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Ancient World Religions

JustCallMeTarzan
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9/7/2009 8:26:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This is a question pointed towards Christians, but also other members of religions from the ancient world...

What makes it the case that your religion is "correct" ?? It seems that each of the major religions run into the same problem of how they know their deity is the "right" one - clearly all gods cannot be the only god or the true god, and just as clearly, there must be an objective criteria for which one it is....

Then there's the problem of the fact that most ancient religions are amalgamations of each other....
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/8/2009 4:52:40 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/7/2009 8:26:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
This is a question pointed towards Christians, but also other members of religions from the ancient world...

What makes it the case that your religion is "correct" ?? It seems that each of the major religions run into the same problem of how they know their deity is the "right" one - clearly all gods cannot be the only god or the true god, and just as clearly, there must be an objective criteria for which one it is....

Then there's the problem of the fact that most ancient religions are amalgamations of each other....

Personal revelation: Becoming a born again Christian is a supernatural act of God.. not acceptance of one creed over another:

You shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall set you FREE.

And it does.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/8/2009 5:57:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/7/2009 8:26:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
This is a question pointed towards Christians, but also other members of religions from the ancient world...

What makes it the case that your religion is "correct" ?? It seems that each of the major religions run into the same problem of how they know their deity is the "right" one - clearly all gods cannot be the only god or the true god, and just as clearly, there must be an objective criteria for which one it is....

Then there's the problem of the fact that most ancient religions are amalgamations of each other....

Its a good question, it all comes down to evidence... for which the defenders of these religions can offer not a sausage!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/8/2009 6:35:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
JCMT -

Interesting question. My landlord is a former Jew, and is now a hardcore Christian (mayhaps even Born Again... not sure). Her reason for the switch was supposedly her praying and having her prayers "answered." For instance, her son was in an accident, she prayed to Jesus (yes, despite being a Jew), and her son lived. Instead of just being grateful that he pulled through, she attributed this so-called miracle to Jesus. Of course, what would she have thought if she DIDN'T pray and her son still healed? We'll never know. Also, I didn't mention to her that this doesn't make any sense even by her own standards, as you're not supposed to pray to ask God/Jesus for favors.

Anyway, I think it all comes down to faith, as there is OBVIOUSLY no physical (or even intellectual) evidence to support any of their lies. People usually just buy into whatever BS was granted to them at birth. It's similar to how people are actually proud of their nationality; even I'm known to yell "Forza Italia!" while watching Italian soccer, even though being Italian is nothing to essentially be PROUD of -- I didn't choose that fate (though I'm grateful - hehe) and it's simply what I was born into. Similarly, people tend to think that whatever religion they were born into reigns supreme as well (usually). This is because it gives credibility to one's identity; it has nothing to do with facts or truth.
President of DDO
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/8/2009 8:54:03 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 6:35:30 AM, theLwerd wrote:
JCMT -

Interesting question. My landlord is a former Jew, and is now a hardcore Christian (mayhaps even Born Again... not sure). Her reason for the switch was supposedly her praying and having her prayers "answered." For instance, her son was in an accident, she prayed to Jesus (yes, despite being a Jew), and her son lived. Instead of just being grateful that he pulled through, she attributed this so-called miracle to Jesus. Of course, what would she have thought if she DIDN'T pray and her son still healed? We'll never know. Also, I didn't mention to her that this doesn't make any sense even by her own standards, as you're not supposed to pray to ask God/Jesus for favors.

Please supply Biblical evidence for this last statement regarding favours.

Anyway, I think it all comes down to faith, as there is OBVIOUSLY no physical (or even intellectual) evidence to support any of their lies. People usually just buy into whatever BS was granted to them at birth. It's similar to how people are actually proud of their nationality; even I'm known to yell "Forza Italia!" while watching Italian soccer, even though being Italian is nothing to essentially be PROUD of -- I didn't choose that fate (though I'm grateful - hehe) and it's simply what I was born into. Similarly, people tend to think that whatever religion they were born into reigns supreme as well (usually). This is because it gives credibility to one's identity; it has nothing to do with facts or truth.

Jesus Christ IS the Truth.. His birth, life, death and RESURRECTION are THE supreme facts of human history/existence.
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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9/8/2009 11:22:05 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
A couple of unacceptable criteria:

1) Personal 'revelation'

This is the most obviously false criteria, since it could be personally revealed to people of differing religions that theirs is the correct one. This position doesn't answer the question - it just puts it off with a non-answer that just outlines the problem better than the question itself.

2) Historic considerations

All religions make a metaphysical claim. History is pretty darn useless in verifying the metaphysical because the metaphysical by definition cannot be evident in history.

3) Miracles

There are two reasons miracles are out. First, people who accept that a god is responsible for the good of their miracles do not accept that a god is responsible for all the bad that happens. This does not represent a consistent system, and shows that these people are simply looking for confirmation of something they already believe. Second, "miracles" represent an assignation of a term that is not related to the events themselves. Nothing about the after-the-fact addition of "miracle" could change the events that already took place - miracles are better understood as statistical anomalies than acts of the divine.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/9/2009 2:46:47 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 11:22:05 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
A couple of unacceptable criteria:

1) Personal 'revelation'

This is the most obviously false criteria, since it could be personally revealed to people of differing religions that theirs is the correct one. This position doesn't answer the question - it just puts it off with a non-answer that just outlines the problem better than the question itself.

2) Historic considerations

All religions make a metaphysical claim. History is pretty darn useless in verifying the metaphysical because the metaphysical by definition cannot be evident in history.

3) Miracles

There are two reasons miracles are out. First, people who accept that a god is responsible for the good of their miracles do not accept that a god is responsible for all the bad that happens. This does not represent a consistent system, and shows that these people are simply looking for confirmation of something they already believe. Second, "miracles" represent an assignation of a term that is not related to the events themselves. Nothing about the after-the-fact addition of "miracle" could change the events that already took place - miracles are better understood as statistical anomalies than acts of the divine.

This leaves us with the question: IF there IS a God and He would like to get to know JCMT what could He POSSIBLY do?
It seems ALL avenues are closed to Him..

Which is why you do not know LOVE, FORGIVENESS.. SALVATION.
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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9/9/2009 10:27:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 2:46:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

This leaves us with the question: IF there IS a God and He would like to get to know JCMT what could He POSSIBLY do?

o.0

It asked a pertinent question...

Well it could make a start by appearing before me and announcing itself...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/10/2009 4:39:09 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 10:27:14 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/9/2009 2:46:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

This leaves us with the question: IF there IS a God and He would like to get to know JCMT what could He POSSIBLY do?

o.0

It asked a pertinent question...

Well it could make a start by appearing before me and announcing itself...

THAT'S a personal revelation.. So you MUST completely agree with me becoming a Christian on the basis of my own revelation then?
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
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9/10/2009 6:58:13 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/10/2009 4:39:09 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/9/2009 10:27:14 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/9/2009 2:46:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

This leaves us with the question: IF there IS a God and He would like to get to know JCMT what could He POSSIBLY do?

o.0

It asked a pertinent question...

Well it could make a start by appearing before me and announcing itself...

THAT'S a personal revelation.. So you MUST completely agree with me becoming a Christian on the basis of my own revelation then?

Fair enough... let me rephrase - appearing to people writ large and announcing itself. And before you say "he did, and we killed him" remember that the people of that time period had no sort of standard for verification - Is it so hard to ask the all-powerful God to just appear in Congress or Parliament (or both at the same time) and announce, "I'm here - what now?"
DATCMOTO
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9/10/2009 7:31:20 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/10/2009 6:58:13 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/10/2009 4:39:09 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/9/2009 10:27:14 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/9/2009 2:46:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

This leaves us with the question: IF there IS a God and He would like to get to know JCMT what could He POSSIBLY do?

o.0

It asked a pertinent question...

Well it could make a start by appearing before me and announcing itself...

THAT'S a personal revelation.. So you MUST completely agree with me becoming a Christian on the basis of my own revelation then?

Fair enough... let me rephrase - appearing to people writ large and announcing itself. And before you say "he did, and we killed him" remember that the people of that time period had no sort of standard for verification - Is it so hard to ask the all-powerful God to just appear in Congress or Parliament (or both at the same time) and announce, "I'm here - what now?"

In which sense do the people of that times verification standards differ from our own?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/12/2009 8:30:36 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 11:22:05 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
A couple of unacceptable criteria:

1) Personal 'revelation'

This is the most obviously false criteria, since it could be personally revealed to people of differing religions that theirs is the correct one. This position doesn't answer the question - it just puts it off with a non-answer that just outlines the problem better than the question itself.

2) Historic considerations

All religions make a metaphysical claim. History is pretty darn useless in verifying the metaphysical because the metaphysical by definition cannot be evident in history.

3) Miracles

There are two reasons miracles are out. First, people who accept that a god is responsible for the good of their miracles do not accept that a god is responsible for all the bad that happens. This does not represent a consistent system, and shows that these people are simply looking for confirmation of something they already believe. Second, "miracles" represent an assignation of a term that is not related to the events themselves. Nothing about the after-the-fact addition of "miracle" could change the events that already took place - miracles are better understood as statistical anomalies than acts of the divine.

I would also include naturalistic arguments for a supernatural.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Gopal
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9/19/2009 9:55:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/7/2009 8:26:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
This is a question pointed towards Christians, but also other members of religions from the ancient world...

What makes it the case that your religion is "correct" ?? It seems that each of the major religions run into the same problem of how they know their deity is the "right" one - clearly all gods cannot be the only god or the true god, and just as clearly, there must be an objective criteria for which one it is....

Then there's the problem of the fact that most ancient religions are amalgamations of each other....

OK, so I belong to the "Ancient world"...

From my perspective: Not every religion believes it is correct. I believe in Sanatana Dharma, which says all paths are equally correct, and are just different ways to reach the ONE. So, the second part of your question doesn't apply.

About the part : 'most religions are amalgamations....", you are correct, since the basic principles do not change. What changes is the manner of presentation, depending upon various conditions, like where the principles are presented, to whom, why, etc. So you end up debating the 'package' and not the principles.

Good question overall.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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9/19/2009 10:36:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
In which sense do the people of that times verification standards differ from our own?

We have cameras. Camcorders. Scientific tools. Etc.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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9/20/2009 12:07:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/19/2009 10:36:56 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
In which sense do the people of that times verification standards differ from our own?

We have cameras. Camcorders. Scientific tools. Etc.

Oh, and we have the idea of verification in the first place. Science did not exist 2000 years ago.

That said, he did not appear to people in general 2000 years ago. Assuming the bible is correct (which it of course can't be) then we have here simply a man, walking up to a temple and proclaiming himself to be god.

That's it.

What about the miracles you say? Well, turns out that miracles were abundant in those days. After Jesus has died his apostles go around and heal the sick and awake the dead. So evidently, in the bible, miracles are not proof you are god. Just of some sort of general holiness.

So what indication do we have in the bible that Jesus is god? None. Except that he hints at it. He doesn't say so straight out, though.
So prove me wrong, then.
KeithKroeger91
Posts: 178
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9/20/2009 12:28:16 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/7/2009 8:26:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
This is a question pointed towards Christians, but also other members of religions from the ancient world...

What makes it the case that your religion is "correct" ?? It seems that each of the major religions run into the same problem of how they know their deity is the "right" one - clearly all gods cannot be the only god or the true god, and just as clearly, there must be an objective criteria for which one it is....

Then there's the problem of the fact that most ancient religions are amalgamations of each other....

I believe that Christianity is the absolute truth because the spread of the Christian religion was utterly perfect. It was an obviously planned phenomenon. God decided that Jesus would be born during the Roman Empire, so that the faith would be transmitted to each corner of the Empire. Then as the Roman empire collapsed and developed a whole bunch of little states on the continent , each state formerly under Roman rule became Christianized and created empires that reached all around the Globe leading to a universal church.

It was too perfect to be chance.
I win ;D
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/20/2009 12:38:47 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/20/2009 12:07:10 AM, regebro wrote:
At 9/19/2009 10:36:56 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
In which sense do the people of that times verification standards differ from our own?

We have cameras. Camcorders. Scientific tools. Etc.

Oh, and we have the idea of verification in the first place. Science did not exist 2000 years ago.


In the strictest sense you are correct, however I do think this is a dangerous oversimplication. There was logic, rationality and a certain degree of empirical data back then. 2000 years ago atheism was not uncommon amongst the educated Roman elite of. Certain surgical techniques from the 1st century BC were not rediscovered until the 1800's. Though this does not really deflect from your point.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/21/2009 4:48:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/19/2009 10:36:56 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
In which sense do the people of that times verification standards differ from our own?

We have cameras. Camcorders. Scientific tools. Etc.

AND PhotoShop, EditSuite, election commities etc etc..

Truth has always been true and lies have always been false.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/21/2009 8:07:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/19/2009 10:36:56 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
In which sense do the people of that times verification standards differ from our own?

We have cameras. Camcorders. Scientific tools. Etc.

That's not truly a "difference" though. The core philosophy remains the same: sensory information and the axioms of logic. Namely, non-contradiction and identity.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/21/2009 10:56:22 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/20/2009 12:28:16 AM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
At 9/7/2009 8:26:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
This is a question pointed towards Christians, but also other members of religions from the ancient world...

What makes it the case that your religion is "correct" ?? It seems that each of the major religions run into the same problem of how they know their deity is the "right" one - clearly all gods cannot be the only god or the true god, and just as clearly, there must be an objective criteria for which one it is....

Then there's the problem of the fact that most ancient religions are amalgamations of each other....

I believe that Christianity is the absolute truth because the spread of the Christian religion was utterly perfect. It was an obviously planned phenomenon. God decided that Jesus would be born during the Roman Empire, so that the faith would be transmitted to each corner of the Empire. Then as the Roman empire collapsed and developed a whole bunch of little states on the continent , each state formerly under Roman rule became Christianized and created empires that reached all around the Globe leading to a universal church.

It was too perfect to be chance.

In the Roman empire? He was hundreds, perhaps thousand of kilometres away from Rome to start with, and Jerusalem was only recently annexed.

If God was really super smart (which he apparently is), Jesus would have existed when Alexander began his conquest of Asia. Then no-one would be left out.

And this doesn't take away from the claim of Muhammed . He was too perfectly positioned within Arabia. Or John Smith. God must have known America would become a superpower and placed his prophet within this growing nation.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Kleptin
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9/21/2009 11:03:08 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/20/2009 12:28:16 AM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
I believe that Christianity is the absolute truth because the spread of the Christian religion was utterly perfect. It was an obviously planned phenomenon. God decided that Jesus would be born during the Roman Empire, so that the faith would be transmitted to each corner of the Empire. Then as the Roman empire collapsed and developed a whole bunch of little states on the continent , each state formerly under Roman rule became Christianized and created empires that reached all around the Globe leading to a universal church.

It was too perfect to be chance.

http://skepticwiki.org...

God bless the internet.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
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9/23/2009 7:35:22 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 9:36:08 AM, Floid wrote:
In which sense do the people of that times verification standards differ from our own?

The scientific method.

Circular!
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/25/2009 4:18:50 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/23/2009 3:56:36 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/21/2009 11:03:08 AM, Kleptin wrote:

http://skepticwiki.org...

God bless the internet.

Oooh... it's like Christmas morning...

Nerd. Alert.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/28/2009 1:47:49 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm not sure if I could find Biblical evidence; however, I remember learning that several times throughout my religious education that you're not supposed to ask God for favors. I remember that it had something to do with not relying on God for everything, and also something along the lines of not just talking to God because you want or need something. Moreover, why would you waste your time praying for favors? Doesn't God already know what's going to happen anyway? That would imply that he already knew you were going to pray and ask for said favor, meaning he took that into consideration when he created the world and subsequently determined everything that was going to happen in it. Finally, God "change his mind" anyway, so why would you be so bold in thinking that you could get God to do so? The Bible explicitly states that God does not change his mind (Samuel 15:29) so there doesn't seem to be a point regardless.
President of DDO
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/28/2009 5:47:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/28/2009 1:47:49 AM, theLwerd wrote:
I'm not sure if I could find Biblical evidence; however, I remember learning that several times throughout my religious education that you're not supposed to ask God for favors. I remember that it had something to do with not relying on God for everything, and also something along the lines of not just talking to God because you want or need something. Moreover, why would you waste your time praying for favors? Doesn't God already know what's going to happen anyway? That would imply that he already knew you were going to pray and ask for said favor, meaning he took that into consideration when he created the world and subsequently determined everything that was going to happen in it. Finally, God "change his mind" anyway, so why would you be so bold in thinking that you could get God to do so? The Bible explicitly states that God does not change his mind (Samuel 15:29) so there doesn't seem to be a point regardless.

Does not a parent usually know a childs needs and wants?
These are utilised to teach a child speech, manners, morals, self control etc.

Our heavenly Father knows what we want, but it may not always be what is good for us: and He still, like any loving Father, likes to be asked.
The Cross.. the Cross.