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Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
So lets imagine for a moment that you are a Christian Priest and a trained exorcist. You are not some rare, insane lunatic from the dark ages. They is one of you for every diocese of the Church of England, an increasingly moderate (or do I mean decreasingly extreme) Church.

You are well educated and rational. You believe that the world is millions of years old, the universe is billions of years old and that mankind evolved. You also believe in God, in the devil, in demons, in possession and in your ability as an exorcist to drive them out.

You are in short a sane, realistic member of society, you could find thousands indeed millions of people who believe the same as you do.

A possessed child is brought to your attention, you are not as I have stressed some medieval zealot. You know of science, you respect science. You would not deny someone who is mentally ill proper medical treatment. So you assess the child, you confirm that they are possessed because that is the most credible explanation for their symptoms. You drive out the demon.

Haven't you just failed to take full advantage of the situation? You are a rational, modern minded person, with direct and clear evidence of demonic possession and your power as a Priest to remove it. This is proof to the world of the fact that your rituals have actual power, and therefore is at least circumstantial evidence of God.

Why doesn't any exorcist ever show us this evidence?

Now some of you may be thinking, but an exorcist would not pause to show the world anything, and would only care to save the child. However the annals of the Saints record several Saints who did not always immediately perform an exorcism. In certain cases they declared that the person's sin invited the demon in, and they would only remove it when they thought they had learnt their lesson.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/8/2009 5:14:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
So lets imagine for a moment that you are a Christian Priest and a trained exorcist. You are not some rare, insane lunatic from the dark ages. They is one of you for every diocese of the Church of England, an increasingly moderate (or do I mean decreasingly extreme) Church.

You are well educated and rational. You believe that the world is millions of years old, the universe is billions of years old and that mankind evolved. You also believe in God, in the devil, in demons, in possession and in your ability as an exorcist to drive them out.

You are in short a sane, realistic member of society, you could find thousands indeed millions of people who believe the same as you do.

A possessed child is brought to your attention, you are not as I have stressed some medieval zealot. You know of science, you respect science. You would not deny someone who is mentally ill proper medical treatment. So you assess the child, you confirm that they are possessed because that is the most credible explanation for their symptoms. You drive out the demon.

Haven't you just failed to take full advantage of the situation? You are a rational, modern minded person, with direct and clear evidence of demonic possession and your power as a Priest to remove it. This is proof to the world of the fact that your rituals have actual power, and therefore is at least circumstantial evidence of God.

Why doesn't any exorcist ever show us this evidence?

Now some of you may be thinking, but an exorcist would not pause to show the world anything, and would only care to save the child. However the annals of the Saints record several Saints who did not always immediately perform an exorcism. In certain cases they declared that the person's sin invited the demon in, and they would only remove it when they thought they had learnt their lesson.

Question 1)

Does a person become homosexual after the very first homosexual desire?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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9/8/2009 5:40:41 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Interesting and amusing 8 episode documentary made for Australian TV in 2004 - John Safran vs. God, where John (Jewish born) explores and tests out various religions. Final episode of the series, he goes to see a Pentecostal exorcist..
DATCMOTO
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9/8/2009 8:49:01 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 5:40:41 AM, Puck wrote:
Interesting and amusing 8 episode documentary made for Australian TV in 2004 - John Safran vs. God, where John (Jewish born) explores and tests out various religions. Final episode of the series, he goes to see a Pentecostal exorcist..

Thanks for posting Puck.. I was kinda sceptical as the Christian guy seemed so 'showbiz'.. I'd be interested to know what John Safran is up to now. whether he's a Christian etc.
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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9/8/2009 11:48:00 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
So lets imagine for a moment that you are a Christian Priest and a trained exorcist. You are not some rare, insane lunatic from the dark ages. They is one of you for every diocese of the Church of England, an increasingly moderate (or do I mean decreasingly extreme) Church.

You are well educated and rational. You believe that the world is millions of years old, the universe is billions of years old and that mankind evolved. You also believe in God, in the devil, in demons, in possession and in your ability as an exorcist to drive them out.

You are in short a sane, realistic member of society, you could find thousands indeed millions of people who believe the same as you do.

A possessed child is brought to your attention, you are not as I have stressed some medieval zealot. You know of science, you respect science. You would not deny someone who is mentally ill proper medical treatment. So you assess the child, you confirm that they are possessed because that is the most credible explanation for their symptoms. You drive out the demon.

Haven't you just failed to take full advantage of the situation? You are a rational, modern minded person, with direct and clear evidence of demonic possession and your power as a Priest to remove it. This is proof to the world of the fact that your rituals have actual power, and therefore is at least circumstantial evidence of God.

Why doesn't any exorcist ever show us this evidence?

Now some of you may be thinking, but an exorcist would not pause to show the world anything, and would only care to save the child. However the annals of the Saints record several Saints who did not always immediately perform an exorcism. In certain cases they declared that the person's sin invited the demon in, and they would only remove it when they thought they had learnt their lesson.

Simple.

Exorcisms don't really work. There are no such things as demons. Prayer only has a placebo effect. Filming an exorcism would expose the silly rituals that are used.

If you were a dignified priest, would you want a video of you waving a cross in fear at a little girl to show up on YouTube?
DATCMOTO
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9/9/2009 2:57:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 11:48:00 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
So lets imagine for a moment that you are a Christian Priest and a trained exorcist. You are not some rare, insane lunatic from the dark ages. They is one of you for every diocese of the Church of England, an increasingly moderate (or do I mean decreasingly extreme) Church.

You are well educated and rational. You believe that the world is millions of years old, the universe is billions of years old and that mankind evolved. You also believe in God, in the devil, in demons, in possession and in your ability as an exorcist to drive them out.

You are in short a sane, realistic member of society, you could find thousands indeed millions of people who believe the same as you do.

A possessed child is brought to your attention, you are not as I have stressed some medieval zealot. You know of science, you respect science. You would not deny someone who is mentally ill proper medical treatment. So you assess the child, you confirm that they are possessed because that is the most credible explanation for their symptoms. You drive out the demon.

Haven't you just failed to take full advantage of the situation? You are a rational, modern minded person, with direct and clear evidence of demonic possession and your power as a Priest to remove it. This is proof to the world of the fact that your rituals have actual power, and therefore is at least circumstantial evidence of God.

Why doesn't any exorcist ever show us this evidence?

Now some of you may be thinking, but an exorcist would not pause to show the world anything, and would only care to save the child. However the annals of the Saints record several Saints who did not always immediately perform an exorcism. In certain cases they declared that the person's sin invited the demon in, and they would only remove it when they thought they had learnt their lesson.

Simple.

Exorcisms don't really work. There are no such things as demons. Prayer only has a placebo effect. Filming an exorcism would expose the silly rituals that are used.

If you were a dignified priest, would you want a video of you waving a cross in fear at a little girl to show up on YouTube?

Demons certainly DO exist. One is influencing YOU. Right now.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/9/2009 3:06:33 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 11:48:00 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
So lets imagine for a moment that you are a Christian Priest and a trained exorcist. You are not some rare, insane lunatic from the dark ages. They is one of you for every diocese of the Church of England, an increasingly moderate (or do I mean decreasingly extreme) Church.

You are well educated and rational. You believe that the world is millions of years old, the universe is billions of years old and that mankind evolved. You also believe in God, in the devil, in demons, in possession and in your ability as an exorcist to drive them out.

You are in short a sane, realistic member of society, you could find thousands indeed millions of people who believe the same as you do.

A possessed child is brought to your attention, you are not as I have stressed some medieval zealot. You know of science, you respect science. You would not deny someone who is mentally ill proper medical treatment. So you assess the child, you confirm that they are possessed because that is the most credible explanation for their symptoms. You drive out the demon.

Haven't you just failed to take full advantage of the situation? You are a rational, modern minded person, with direct and clear evidence of demonic possession and your power as a Priest to remove it. This is proof to the world of the fact that your rituals have actual power, and therefore is at least circumstantial evidence of God.

Why doesn't any exorcist ever show us this evidence?

Now some of you may be thinking, but an exorcist would not pause to show the world anything, and would only care to save the child. However the annals of the Saints record several Saints who did not always immediately perform an exorcism. In certain cases they declared that the person's sin invited the demon in, and they would only remove it when they thought they had learnt their lesson.

Simple.

Exorcisms don't really work. There are no such things as demons. Prayer only has a placebo effect. Filming an exorcism would expose the silly rituals that are used.

If you were a dignified priest, would you want a video of you waving a cross in fear at a little girl to show up on YouTube?

Not youtube no, but you could call in a panel of atheist scientists and say, "look we know this girl is possessed because..." and then demonstrate your cure. If there is any validity to possession, exorcism etc, which remains a firm belief of many Christian sects and Islam, and indeed Judaism I think it should be possible to demonstrate some basis in reality!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/9/2009 3:20:19 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 3:06:33 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Question 1)

Does A single solitary homosexual desire AUTOMATICALLY make one always a homosexual forever and ever?

YES/NO/DON'T KNOW
The Cross.. the Cross.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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9/9/2009 3:59:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
So lets imagine for a moment that you are a Christian Priest
[...]
and rational.

Well, THERE's your problem.
So prove me wrong, then.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/9/2009 4:03:52 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 3:59:21 AM, regebro wrote:
At 9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
So lets imagine for a moment that you are a Christian Priest
[...]
and rational.


Well, THERE's your problem.

Does your hate keep you warm at night?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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9/9/2009 4:27:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 8:49:01 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Thanks for posting Puck.. I was kinda sceptical as the Christian guy seemed so 'showbiz'.. I'd be interested to know what John Safran is up to now. whether he's a Christian etc.

Still labels himself as Jewish.
regebro
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9/9/2009 7:11:19 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 11:48:00 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Exorcisms don't really work. There are no such things as demons. Prayer only has a placebo effect. Filming an exorcism would expose the silly rituals that are used.

My point is that if you are rational, you know this. The idea in the question of a rational priest who performs exorcisms is an impossibility. You simply do not both believe in exorcism and science at the same time.
So prove me wrong, then.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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9/9/2009 7:19:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 3:20:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Question 1)

Does A single solitary homosexual desire AUTOMATICALLY make one always a homosexual forever and ever?

YES/NO/DON'T KNOW

It makes you homosexual at the moment you desire something homosexual. If it's a momentary thing, then you are a momentary homosexual. If it's prolonged, then so are you.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
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9/9/2009 7:32:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 4:27:46 AM, Puck wrote:
At 9/8/2009 8:49:01 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Thanks for posting Puck.. I was kinda sceptical as the Christian guy seemed so 'showbiz'.. I'd be interested to know what John Safran is up to now. whether he's a Christian etc.

Still labels himself as Jewish.

And does an interesting radio show on Triple J with Father Bob...

So Puck, do you actually believe Safran was exorcised? What do you think went on there? I watched the entirety of Music Jamboree and Vs. God, and I think he's the type who would just fake it to take the p*ss. And then lie about it for ages.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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9/9/2009 8:35:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
His official line is 'I don't really remember much of it' - if it is legit, there are certainly explanations outside of an exorcism for the behaviour, namely a type of hypnosis easy enough to induce - certainly the edit shows plenty of suggestions repeatedly in that regard. Apparently there are several hours of footage of the event, we get a bare 15 minutes of it. I'd struggle too if 6 people were trying to hold me down hard. >.>

His radio program is funny I must admit. It's available to listen streaming live to air - they keep each show for a week too it seems.

http://www.abc.net.au...
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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9/9/2009 11:29:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
You are well educated and rational. You believe that the world is millions of years old, the universe is billions of years old and that mankind evolved. You also believe in God, in the devil, in demons, in possession and in your ability as an exorcist to drive them out.

If you get your education from the philosophies of men you might believe in evolution. If you get your education from God you will know that mankind did not evolve, but rather were placed here by God.

You are in short a sane, realistic member of society, you could find thousands indeed millions of people who believe the same as you do.

A possessed child is brought to your attention, you are not as I have stressed some medieval zealot. You know of science, you respect science. You would not deny someone who is mentally ill proper medical treatment. So you assess the child, you confirm that they are possessed because that is the most credible explanation for their symptoms. You drive out the demon.

True science and religion are compatible, not exclusive.

Haven't you just failed to take full advantage of the situation? You are a rational, modern minded person, with direct and clear evidence of demonic possession and your power as a Priest to remove it. This is proof to the world of the fact that your rituals have actual power, and therefore is at least circumstantial evidence of God.

the purpose of miracles is not to create faith, but rather to confirm faith.
Miracles are not to be "consumed upon your lusts"

D&C 46:9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign that they may consume it upon their lusts.

http://scriptures.lds.org...

Why doesn't any exorcist ever show us this evidence?

Now some of you may be thinking, but an exorcist would not pause to show the world anything, and would only care to save the child. However the annals of the Saints record several Saints who did not always immediately perform an exorcism. In certain cases they declared that the person's sin invited the demon in, and they would only remove it when they thought they had learnt their lesson.

These evil spirits are dangerous...you don't want to be dallying around...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also even if someone saw that happen (an evil spirit being cast out), miracles do not convert...even if a person saw someone come back from the dead!!---> people would still rationalize!!!

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

http://scriptures.lds.org...
regebro
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9/9/2009 11:56:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 11:29:38 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
If you get your education from the philosophies of men you might believe in evolution. If you get your education from God you will know that mankind did not evolve, but rather were placed here by God.
[...]
True science and religion are compatible, not exclusive.

How can someone have both these sentences in his head at once without something exploding? :-)

Don't you realize your first statement completely contradicts the second? You are saying above that you either get your education from science of from religion. For religion to be compatible with science religions teachings must not contradict sciences teachings. This is indeed possible, but not if religion teaches you that mankind did not evolve.
So prove me wrong, then.
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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9/10/2009 12:09:05 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 11:56:57 PM, regebro wrote:
At 9/9/2009 11:29:38 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
If you get your education from the philosophies of men you might believe in evolution. If you get your education from God you will know that mankind did not evolve, but rather were placed here by God.
[...]
True science and religion are compatible, not exclusive.

How can someone have both these sentences in his head at once without something exploding? :-)

Don't you realize your first statement completely contradicts the second? You are saying above that you either get your education from science of from religion. For religion to be compatible with science religions teachings must not contradict sciences teachings. This is indeed possible, but not if religion teaches you that mankind did not evolve.

You may not have noticed the word "True" science...mankind does not always teach "True" science...science has been proven its self to be wrong many times.

(The earth is flat?....mercury in medicine, asbestos in ships, lead in pipes, nuclear bomb blasts near civil populations, sun revolves around the earth, Pluto was a planet - now it's not, many medicines have been revoked by the FDA or have caused harm, smokings good for you, ecstasy is okay, marijuana does zero harm to the body, eating tomatoes will kill you, letting blood will cure you, going faster than the speed of sound is impossible, breast feeding is bad, coddling your children is harmful to them......)
regebro
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9/10/2009 12:40:58 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/10/2009 12:09:05 AM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
You may not have noticed the word "True" science...mankind does not always teach "True" science...science has been proven its self to be wrong many times.

Oh, *true* science. So all you really are saying is that moronic dogmas and religion is compatible. Well duh, we knew that already.

(The earth is flat?

No, no matter what you religion once told you, the earth is not flat.

sun revolves around the earth

No, no matter what you religion once told you, the earth revolves around the sun.

You don't know what science is or how it works. Thats OK, we are all born completely ignorant, and need to learn everything. There is no shame in not knowing. There is only shame in not wanting to know.

Do you want to know?
So prove me wrong, then.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/10/2009 2:49:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 11:29:38 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
At 9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
You are well educated and rational. You believe that the world is millions of years old, the universe is billions of years old and that mankind evolved. You also believe in God, in the devil, in demons, in possession and in your ability as an exorcist to drive them out.

If you get your education from the philosophies of men you might believe in evolution. If you get your education from God you will know that mankind did not evolve, but rather were placed here by God.

Evolution is officially believed by most churches.


You are in short a sane, realistic member of society, you could find thousands indeed millions of people who believe the same as you do.

A possessed child is brought to your attention, you are not as I have stressed some medieval zealot. You know of science, you respect science. You would not deny someone who is mentally ill proper medical treatment. So you assess the child, you confirm that they are possessed because that is the most credible explanation for their symptoms. You drive out the demon.

True science and religion are compatible, not exclusive.

Haven't you just failed to take full advantage of the situation? You are a rational, modern minded person, with direct and clear evidence of demonic possession and your power as a Priest to remove it. This is proof to the world of the fact that your rituals have actual power, and therefore is at least circumstantial evidence of God.

the purpose of miracles is not to create faith, but rather to confirm faith.
Miracles are not to be "consumed upon your lusts"


So why did Jesus perform miracles for the benefit of disbelievers?

D&C 46:9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign that they may consume it upon their lusts.

http://scriptures.lds.org...

Why doesn't any exorcist ever show us this evidence?

Now some of you may be thinking, but an exorcist would not pause to show the world anything, and would only care to save the child. However the annals of the Saints record several Saints who did not always immediately perform an exorcism. In certain cases they declared that the person's sin invited the demon in, and they would only remove it when they thought they had learnt their lesson.

These evil spirits are dangerous...you don't want to be dallying around...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No, as I say the very Saints themselves did dally around. Some of them kept posessed children locked away for years, instructing them in piety when they were lucid, chaining them up when the 'demon' was in control.

Also even if someone saw that happen (an evil spirit being cast out), miracles do not convert...even if a person saw someone come back from the dead!!---> people would still rationalize!!!


To an extent yes, but the effort is not even made.

Also it does not address the issue that excorcism is the treatment for the diagnosis of possession, what therefore is the criteria for possession. If it is valid it can be demonstrated to medical professionals.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
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9/10/2009 4:55:49 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/9/2009 7:19:40 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
At 9/9/2009 3:20:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Question 1)

Does A single solitary homosexual desire AUTOMATICALLY make one always a homosexual forever and ever?

YES/NO/DON'T KNOW

It makes you homosexual at the moment you desire something homosexual. If it's a momentary thing, then you are a momentary homosexual. If it's prolonged, then so are you.

Would you not say that the choice to 'indulge' that fleeting desire with fantasy, or action, or NOT to indulge in fantasy, or action, would have an enormous effect on whether that person became a practising homosexual?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/10/2009 8:27:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I wonder if insurance companies will cover exorcism.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/10/2009 10:38:06 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/10/2009 8:27:37 AM, Kleptin wrote:
I wonder if insurance companies will cover exorcism.

Thats really my point, if there is any truth to the matter then surely doctors and psychologists would sometimes refer patients to exorcists as part of normal practice. (as opposed to rarely, semi-secretly and only because by working with the patients insanity you may make them feel happier).
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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9/10/2009 11:38:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/10/2009 12:40:58 AM, regebro wrote:
At 9/10/2009 12:09:05 AM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
You may not have noticed the word "True" science...mankind does not always teach "True" science...science has been proven its self to be wrong many times.

Oh, *true* science. So all you really are saying is that moronic dogmas and religion is compatible. Well duh, we knew that already.

(The earth is flat?

No, no matter what you religion once told you, the earth is not flat.

sun revolves around the earth

No, no matter what you religion once told you, the earth revolves around the sun.


You don't know what science is or how it works. Thats OK, we are all born completely ignorant, and need to learn everything. There is no shame in not knowing. There is only shame in not wanting to know.

Do you want to know?

Ok...you didn't get what I was trying to point out...I was trying to point out that those things were the views of SCIENCE at that time....
heart_of_the_matter
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9/11/2009 12:02:07 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/10/2009 2:49:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/9/2009 11:29:38 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
At 9/8/2009 5:10:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Evolution is officially believed by most churches.

What most people believe does not define what truth is. Most of the people living in Noah's time thought it wasn't going to rain.

the purpose of miracles is not to create faith, but rather to confirm faith.
Miracles are not to be "consumed upon your lusts"


So why did Jesus perform miracles for the benefit of disbelievers?

Did He? or did He CONFIRM THE FAITH of those who FIRST believed? Who benefited from the miracles?

Ex: When the woman with the issue of blood believed that she would be healed:

Matthew 9:20 ¶ And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
http://scriptures.lds.org...

She first exercised faith...then her faith was confirmed...(by a miracle)

Or here is one specifically related to casting out devils:

Mark 9:21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
http://scriptures.lds.org...

Jesus first makes sure the man is exercising faith...(as much as the man can muster)...then he rewards His faith...(with a miracle)

These evil spirits are dangerous...you don't want to be dallying around...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No, as I say the very Saints themselves did dally around. Some of them kept posessed children locked away for years, instructing them in piety when they were lucid, chaining them up when the 'demon' was in control.

OK...I don't know about those situations. I am just saying that if I was called upon to cast out devils I would not take it lightly and I would not waste time by waiting around...unless that is what God was wanting me to do.

Also even if someone saw that happen (an evil spirit being cast out), miracles do not convert...even if a person saw someone come back from the dead!!---> people would still rationalize!!!


To an extent yes, but the effort is not even made.

There are many miracles being shown forth to the faithful in this very day and age.
The unbelievers could in fact be seeing the miracles and not even recognizing them...Also the Lord specifically did NOT show miracles (or signs) to the unbelievers at times:

Matthew 16: 1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring, O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
http://scriptures.lds.org...

They could not even see the signs right in front of them! The son of God was talking with them...Jesus also pointed out how they were not discerning the signs of the times...He also said plainly that it is an adulterous generation that seeketh after signs...


Also it does not address the issue that excorcism is the treatment for the diagnosis of possession, what therefore is the criteria for possession. If it is valid it can be demonstrated to medical professionals.

Is that kind of "treatment" really in the realm and scope of medicine? or should it be?
regebro
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9/11/2009 1:09:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/10/2009 11:38:58 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Ok...you didn't get what I was trying to point out...

Trust me on this: I understood perfectly.

I was trying to point out that those things were the views of SCIENCE at that time....

Yes.

I repeat:

You don't know what science is or how it works. Thats OK, we are all born completely ignorant, and need to learn everything. There is no shame in not knowing. There is only shame in not wanting to know.

Do you want to know?

"Yes" or "No" are completely acceptable answers.
So prove me wrong, then.
regebro
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9/11/2009 1:22:03 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/11/2009 12:02:07 AM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Most of the people living in Noah's time thought it wasn't going to rain.

OK, lets start from the beginning here:

1. The Bible is written by men, not God.
2. The texts of the Bible are not absolute scientific truth, but allegories and moral stories. There are facts that are true also in a scientific sense, but they are not that many.
3. The flood is NOT one of them.

Yes, as you say, science and religion are not contradictory, but treating the Bible as a science book *is* contradictory to science.

Did He? or did He CONFIRM THE FAITH of those who FIRST believed? Who benefited from the miracles?

The leaders of the sect Jesus was a leader of, as the claim of miracles attracted followers.

OK...I don't know about those situations. I am just saying that if I was called upon to cast out devils I would not take it lightly and I would not waste time by waiting around...unless that is what God was wanting me to do.

Notice how there is no way for you to know what God wants you to do, except asking yourself. And then you are not asking God, you ask yourself. And then it's not God, it's you.

You can cut out God from the process and just ask *yourself* what you think is the best to do, because thats what you are doing anyway.

The unbelievers could in fact be seeing the miracles and not even recognizing them...Also the Lord specifically did NOT show miracles (or signs) to the unbelievers at times:

Ah, so you can only see the miracles if you believe. That makes sense. Oh, that reminds me about some really clever weaver I heard about, who wive the worlds most beautiful cloth, except you could only see it if you were of pure heart. He was employed by a King, I heard. There was some nasty talk that a kid claimed the King was naked, but obviously he must have been a very sinful kid. An unbeliever no, doubt.

They could not even see the signs right in front of them!

Yes. Wicked, wicked, unbelieving children. Damnation for them!

Also it does not address the issue that excorcism is the treatment for the diagnosis of possession, what therefore is the criteria for possession. If it is valid it can be demonstrated to medical professionals.

Is that kind of "treatment" really in the realm and scope of medicine?

If it works, yes.
So prove me wrong, then.
DATCMOTO
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9/11/2009 5:36:43 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/10/2009 10:38:06 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/10/2009 8:27:37 AM, Kleptin wrote:
I wonder if insurance companies will cover exorcism.

Thats really my point, if there is any truth to the matter then surely doctors and psychologists would sometimes refer patients to exorcists as part of normal practice. (as opposed to rarely, semi-secretly and only because by working with the patients insanity you may make them feel happier).

No, because psychology has essentially taken over from Christianity: Freud, along with Darwin and Nietzche paved the way for this.

Psychology seeks to negate personal CHOICE and personal RESPONSIBILITY in that one blames ones parents etc for ones problems.
One focuses on being 'sinned against' rather than ones own sins. (which is the absolute root/route of the problem)
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
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9/12/2009 8:35:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/10/2009 11:38:58 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Ok...you didn't get what I was trying to point out...I was trying to point out that those things were the views of SCIENCE at that time....

Actually, no. Those were not the views of scientists. At that time, there was an extremely powerful Church that regulated everything. Scientists were like ants compared to them. They didn't dare say anything that contradicted with the Church because then, they would be punished.

So no, those were the views of RELIGION, not SCIENCE.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.