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Was the Serpent from Eden the Devil?

Ren
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8/16/2012 9:40:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
There was a thread recently that was completely irrelevant to this issue, but it did correspond with the assumption that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was the Devil.

I've thought about this, and upon reading Genesis, it occurred to me that there's no real suggestion that the serpent that was there was, in fact, the Devil.

In fact, it occurred to me that the entire interpretation of that story is generally false.

First, there was no "Garden of Eden." There was a garden planted in Eden, which was some body of land "in the East:"

Genesis 2:8: "Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed."

In fact, the way it's written makes it sound as though Eden is an actual geographical location somewhere in the Middle East, with some connection to Africa:

Genesis 2:10-11: 10 "A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold."

Pishon sounds quite like The Nile, if you ask me.

But, bringing it back to the serpent, this is how it was described:

Genesis 3:1: "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden'? "

Here, we don't see any suggestion of possession, nor any sort of reference to the Devil. Instead, we simply have a rather smart reptile. Moreover, what happened wasn't Eve's fault, really, nor was it any sort of deception on part of the reptile:

Genesis 3:2-6:

"2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"

4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."

What is clearly stated here, is that the serpent told Eve the truth, and she considered such prospects appealing. Adam saw the whole thing, and was obviously within earshot of the reptile, so also he wasn't bold enough to take the fruit himself (the weakling), he still conceded to eating the fruit once Eve handed it to him with no argument whatsoever. One way or another, though, you can see here:

"7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, "

That the serpent was telling the truth.

But, to bring the point home, notice that God punished the serpent itself, rather than having anything to say about the Devil:

Genesis 3:14-15:

14 So the LordGod said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,

"Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b]your head,
and you will strike his heel."

Why do this to a poor animal when it was really the result of a possession outside of its control? God certainly didn't punish the pigs that were possessed...

Moreover, he punished everyone involved, not just the serpent, and not just the serpent and Eve. It is quite apparent that, although admirably bold, Eve was no less guilty than Adam.

All other interpretations, as far as I'm concerned, is false and/or misleading propaganda.
Maikuru
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8/16/2012 10:44:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why didn't Blue Jay tell the snake to shut the hell up about that fruit?

Seriously, though, that's interesting. I was taught that the snake was the devil and always assumed as much. I'm sure there are others who defend that view. What's your take on the tree? Was there something inherently special about the fruit or upon eating it, did they simply realize that they could choose to disobey God?
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GreatestIam
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8/16/2012 12:35:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ren

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is where the notion of Satan being the talking snake stems from.

You are right though in any case that the snake was punished without just cause.

So were A & E when God murdered them by denying them what would keep them alive. The tree of life.

We jail J Ws today who kill their children by denying a blood transfusion yet Christians honor their murdering God for doing the same.

Disgusting and immoral in my books.

The myth of Eden made a lot more sense with the Jewish interpretation that called our passage through Eden as our elevation to gaining a moral sense. The Christian fall version makes no sense at all.

Regards
DL
popculturepooka
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8/16/2012 1:19:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A lot of people don't know this but satan isn't even a proper name - that is, a name always refering to a discrete and distinct person. It's a general noun that means adversary and was used to describe a whole number of adversaries in the bible.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/16/2012 1:21:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 9:40:43 AM, Ren wrote:
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b]your head,
and you will strike his heel."


Why do this to a poor animal when it was really the result of a possession outside of its control? God certainly didn't punish the pigs that were possessed...

All other interpretations, as far as I'm concerned, is false and/or misleading propaganda.


Seems convincing with out context..

However, the verses in bold^ seem to be completely out of left field, if he is indeed speaking to a mere snake. -_-

Her offspring is Christ, and his Offspring is Sin and Death..

Sin and death strike humanity (bruise), and Christ defeats both for us (crush's the head).

The serpent is the devil...
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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8/16/2012 1:49:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 12:35:27 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Ren

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is where the notion of Satan being the talking snake stems from.

You are right though in any case that the snake was punished without just cause.

So were A & E when God murdered them by denying them what would keep them alive. The tree of life.

We jail J Ws today who kill their children by denying a blood transfusion yet Christians honor their murdering God for doing the same.

Disgusting and immoral in my books.

The myth of Eden made a lot more sense with the Jewish interpretation that called our passage through Eden as our elevation to gaining a moral sense. The Christian fall version makes no sense at all.

Regards
DL


lol, you speak of God like he is on the same playing field as us.

God is Just, we are not.

God can kill whomever he wants, and it wouldn't be immoral; He is perfect.

Since we are no where near perfect, our judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity; Our actions are immoral because we have not the authority nor qualifications to take those matters into our own hands..

Hence why there is no mention of a child actually being stoned for disobeying his parents in the bible, only the infamous command.. We are all guilty of this crime, so obviously we'd all need to be stoned; this didn't happen because the command was meant to break us, not endorse democide.

Romans 7:12-13

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

It's really not to difficult to understand, when you put a little honest brain power to it ;)
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Ren
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8/16/2012 1:59:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 10:44:30AM, Maikuru wrote: : Why didn't Blue Jay tell the snake to shut the hell upabout that fruit? : : Seriously, though, that's interesting. I was taught that the snake was the devilandalwaysassumedas much. I'm sure thereare others who defend that view. What's your take on the tree? Was there something inherently specialabout the fruit or upon eating it, did they simply realize that they could choose to disobey God?

Oh, man, I think about that tree so much. It's almost a reference to self-sufficiency through sentience as opposed to reliance on some sort of providence... I believe it's purely conceptual.
Ren
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8/16/2012 2:01:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 12:35:27 PM, GreatestIam wrote: : Ren: : Revelation 12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil,and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth,and his angels were cast out with him.: : This is where the notion of Satan being the talking snake stems from.: : Youare right though inany case that the snake was punished without just cause.: : So wereA & E when God murdered them by denying them what would keep themalive. The tree of life.: : We jail J Ws today who kill their children by denyinga blood transfusion yet Christians honor their murdering God for doing the same.: : Disgustingand immoral in my books.: : The myth of Eden madea lot more sense with the Jewish interpretation that called our passage through Edenas our elevation to gaininga moral sense. The Christian fall version makes no senseatall.: : Regards: DL

Oh, I know from where the perception that "the serpent" is the Devil, but the equivocation is tantamount to claiming that every serpent on earth is the Devil...

I agree that the Jewish interpretation makes much more sense... it, at least, abides to some degree of reason.
Ren
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8/16/2012 2:03:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 1:19:02 PM, popculturepooka wrote: : A lot of people don't know this but satanisn't evena proper name - thatis,a namealways refering toa discreteand distinct person. It'sa general noun that meansadversaryand was used to describea whole number ofadversaries in the bible.

Dude, I did not know that. Excellent clarification, thank you! ^_^

That sheds light on quite a bit except how the Devil is anthropomorphized in relation to Jesus.

What would you say that's about?
Ren
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8/16/2012 2:04:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Unless, perhaps, it's his own human inclinations potentially getting the best of Him... deliberations with Himself...
Ren
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8/16/2012 2:06:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 1:21:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 9:40:43 AM, Ren wrote:
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b]your head,
and you will strike his heel."


Why do this to a poor animal when it was really the result of a possession outside of its control? God certainly didn't punish the pigs that were possessed...

All other interpretations, as far as I'm concerned, is false and/or misleading propaganda.


Seems convincing with out context..

However, the verses in bold^ seem to be completely out of left field, if he is indeed speaking to a mere snake. -_-

Her offspring is Christ, and his Offspring is Sin and Death..

Sin and death strike humanity (bruise), and Christ defeats both for us (crush's the head).

The serpent is the devil...

Her offspring were several people, to include Cain and Abel. Jesus didn't come for hundreds (thousands? Hundreds of thousands?) of years.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/16/2012 2:19:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 1:19:02 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
A lot of people don't know this but satan isn't even a proper name - that is, a name always refering to a discrete and distinct person. It's a general noun that means adversary and was used to describe a whole number of adversaries in the bible.

The Fool: Not trying to rain on your parade, but God and satan, are inconsitence all together. There is no justification for either or. Its really tough sell say that God, gave only a version of the bible that can only be encrypted by only certain people. I mean lets be honest Does that reallly have any compatibility with all powerfull perfection..?? Really. honesty. God predicatoins an action can't possibly be reconciled.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Paradox_7
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8/16/2012 2:24:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 2:06:24 PM, Ren wrote:
At 8/16/2012 1:21:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 9:40:43 AM, Ren wrote:
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b]your head,
and you will strike his heel."


Why do this to a poor animal when it was really the result of a possession outside of its control? God certainly didn't punish the pigs that were possessed...

All other interpretations, as far as I'm concerned, is false and/or misleading propaganda.


Seems convincing with out context..

However, the verses in bold^ seem to be completely out of left field, if he is indeed speaking to a mere snake. -_-

Her offspring is Christ, and his Offspring is Sin and Death..

Sin and death strike humanity (bruise), and Christ defeats both for us (crush's the head).

The serpent is the devil...

Her offspring were several people, to include Cain and Abel. Jesus didn't come for hundreds (thousands? Hundreds of thousands?) of years.


Really?..

So you think God is simply saying that her kids are gonna hate snakes or what? lol
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
TheBossToss
Posts: 154
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8/16/2012 2:43:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 1:49:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 12:35:27 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Ren

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is where the notion of Satan being the talking snake stems from.

You are right though in any case that the snake was punished without just cause.

So were A & E when God murdered them by denying them what would keep them alive. The tree of life.

We jail J Ws today who kill their children by denying a blood transfusion yet Christians honor their murdering God for doing the same.

Disgusting and immoral in my books.

The myth of Eden made a lot more sense with the Jewish interpretation that called our passage through Eden as our elevation to gaining a moral sense. The Christian fall version makes no sense at all.

Regards
DL


lol, you speak of God like he is on the same playing field as us.

God is Just, we are not.

God can kill whomever he wants, and it wouldn't be immoral; He is perfect.

Since we are no where near perfect, our judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity; Our actions are immoral because we have not the authority nor qualifications to take those matters into our own hands..

Hence why there is no mention of a child actually being stoned for disobeying his parents in the bible, only the infamous command.. We are all guilty of this crime, so obviously we'd all need to be stoned; this didn't happen because the command was meant to break us, not endorse democide.

Romans 7:12-13

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


It's really not to difficult to understand, when you put a little honest brain power to it ;)

Yeah, God gets a get-out-of-jail-free card because he is God. He gets to murder (which he does) and commit genocide (which he does), and it's completely moral because he's God and he's speshul.
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That was real intellectual property theft. They used her idea for their own profit and fame. When I pirate, I am usually downloading textbooks that I cannot afford to purchase on my own and that I do not want my parents to spend money on.
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Ren
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8/16/2012 2:49:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 2:24:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 2:06:24 PM, Ren wrote:
At 8/16/2012 1:21:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 9:40:43 AM, Ren wrote:
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b]your head,
and you will strike his heel."


Why do this to a poor animal when it was really the result of a possession outside of its control? God certainly didn't punish the pigs that were possessed...

All other interpretations, as far as I'm concerned, is false and/or misleading propaganda.


Seems convincing with out context..

However, the verses in bold^ seem to be completely out of left field, if he is indeed speaking to a mere snake. -_-

Her offspring is Christ, and his Offspring is Sin and Death..

Sin and death strike humanity (bruise), and Christ defeats both for us (crush's the head).

The serpent is the devil...

Her offspring were several people, to include Cain and Abel. Jesus didn't come for hundreds (thousands? Hundreds of thousands?) of years.


Really?..

So you think God is simply saying that her kids are gonna hate snakes or what? lol

Inasmuch as it says that God took away the snake's legs, and that women will have painful labors, and that man must till the earth to eat -- yes.

God was essentially saying that everyone is going to hate snakes from now on.

He essentially put the same curse on Cain, but Cain begged him to retract it, so God asserted that he will afflict even greater punishment on those that attempt to hurt him or his kin.

Which is strange, given that later on, God asserted that murderers should be put to death, unless one accepts that God made that decree under the context of a fledging society.
Paradox_7
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8/16/2012 3:23:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 2:43:31 PM, TheBossToss wrote:
At 8/16/2012 1:49:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 12:35:27 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Ren

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is where the notion of Satan being the talking snake stems from.

You are right though in any case that the snake was punished without just cause.

So were A & E when God murdered them by denying them what would keep them alive. The tree of life.

We jail J Ws today who kill their children by denying a blood transfusion yet Christians honor their murdering God for doing the same.

Disgusting and immoral in my books.

The myth of Eden made a lot more sense with the Jewish interpretation that called our passage through Eden as our elevation to gaining a moral sense. The Christian fall version makes no sense at all.

Regards
DL


lol, you speak of God like he is on the same playing field as us.

God is Just, we are not.

God can kill whomever he wants, and it wouldn't be immoral; He is perfect.

Since we are no where near perfect, our judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity; Our actions are immoral because we have not the authority nor qualifications to take those matters into our own hands..

Hence why there is no mention of a child actually being stoned for disobeying his parents in the bible, only the infamous command.. We are all guilty of this crime, so obviously we'd all need to be stoned; this didn't happen because the command was meant to break us, not endorse democide.

Romans 7:12-13

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


It's really not to difficult to understand, when you put a little honest brain power to it ;)

Yeah, God gets a get-out-of-jail-free card because he is God. He gets to murder (which he does) and commit genocide (which he does), and it's completely moral because he's God and he's speshul.


Only a human can commit murder.

Genocide is only wrong when humans do it.

But you'll get your chance to talk sh*t when you and him are face to face; even tho it will be more like you sh*tting your pants..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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8/16/2012 3:46:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 2:49:39 PM, Ren wrote:
At 8/16/2012 2:24:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 2:06:24 PM, Ren wrote:
At 8/16/2012 1:21:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 9:40:43 AM, Ren wrote:
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b]your head,
and you will strike his heel."


Why do this to a poor animal when it was really the result of a possession outside of its control? God certainly didn't punish the pigs that were possessed...

All other interpretations, as far as I'm concerned, is false and/or misleading propaganda.


Seems convincing with out context..

However, the verses in bold^ seem to be completely out of left field, if he is indeed speaking to a mere snake. -_-

Her offspring is Christ, and his Offspring is Sin and Death..

Sin and death strike humanity (bruise), and Christ defeats both for us (crush's the head).

The serpent is the devil...

Her offspring were several people, to include Cain and Abel. Jesus didn't come for hundreds (thousands? Hundreds of thousands?) of years.


Really?..

So you think God is simply saying that her kids are gonna hate snakes or what? lol

Inasmuch as it says that God took away the snake's legs, and that women will have painful labors, and that man must till the earth to eat -- yes.

God was essentially saying that everyone is going to hate snakes from now on.

He essentially put the same curse on Cain, but Cain begged him to retract it, so God asserted that he will afflict even greater punishment on those that attempt to hurt him or his kin.

Which is strange, given that later on, God asserted that murderers should be put to death, unless one accepts that God made that decree under the context of a fledging society.


Lmao.. I just so happen to like snakes. (can't stand spiders tho).

Seriously though, after that intriging exegesis you gave, at the most important place.. you flop.

I can't think of one denomination that does not understand Gen 3:15 to mean Christ will defeat Satan.

"The world has commercialized and romanticized the Christmas story, but the reality is far from romantic and sweet. When the Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us (John 1:14), Satan unleashed all his evil powers to hinder the mission of the Savior and to stop the fulfillment of the prophecy God gave to the serpent in the beginning of history: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel" (Gen. 3:15). Satan tried to prevent Christ from leaving the manger to go to the cross. He wanted to block the completion of God's plan of redemption – the justification of sinners, the sanctification of the saints, the salvation of the elect. But God has His own army at his disposal for battle against Satan. The Old Testament testifies that angels worked behind the stage of history; they were the messengers who prepared the world for the coming of the One who is greater and more glorious than even the mightiest angel."

http://www.reformedreflections.ca...
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
GreatestIam
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8/16/2012 7:19:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 1:19:02 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
A lot of people don't know this but satan isn't even a proper name - that is, a name always refering to a discrete and distinct person. It's a general noun that means adversary and was used to describe a whole number of adversaries in the bible.

All smoke and mirrors to open the believers wallet via guilt.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/16/2012 7:29:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 1:49:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


lol, you speak of God like he is on the same playing field as us.

God is Just, we are not.

God can kill whomever he wants, and it wouldn't be immoral; He is perfect.

Since we are no where near perfect, our judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity;

Your exoneration and not knowing that murder is unjust proves your judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity. Not mine.

Our actions are immoral because we have not the authority nor qualifications to take those matters into our own hands..

Hence why there is no mention of a child actually being stoned for disobeying his parents in the bible, only the infamous command.. We are all guilty of this crime, so obviously we'd all need to be stoned; this didn't happen because the command was meant to break us, not endorse democide.


No but God is sure shown as killing many innocent children both at Sodom and in the genocidal flood of Noah's day. But God is the great slave owner and can do whatever he likes by your immoral judgement. He own your so called free willed as s.

Romans 7:12-13

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


It's really not to difficult to understand, when you put a little honest brain power to it ;)

Try it sometime.

Regards
DL
Paradox_7
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8/16/2012 8:23:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 7:29:08 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/16/2012 1:49:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


lol, you speak of God like he is on the same playing field as us.

God is Just, we are not.

God can kill whomever he wants, and it wouldn't be immoral; He is perfect.

Since we are no where near perfect, our judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity;

Your exoneration and not knowing that murder is unjust proves your judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity. Not mine.

wow.

You don't get it do you?

Murder can only be commited by a man.

Our actions are immoral because we have not the authority nor qualifications to take those matters into our own hands..

Hence why there is no mention of a child actually being stoned for disobeying his parents in the bible, only the infamous command.. We are all guilty of this crime, so obviously we'd all need to be stoned; this didn't happen because the command was meant to break us, not endorse democide.


No but God is sure shown as killing many innocent children both at Sodom and in the genocidal flood of Noah's day. But God is the great slave owner and can do whatever he likes by your immoral judgement. He own your so called free willed as s.

Lmao, you must have not read any of my posts-- I'm a determinist AKA no such thing as free-will. So, God own all of our as s's! including you, brosef.

If God did infact create the world, and all the properties of the world, you're arguing against it is similar to if you were arguing the rules of a game with the person who invented it.


Romans 7:12-13

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


It's really not to difficult to understand, when you put a little honest brain power to it ;)

Try it sometime.

Regards
DL
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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8/16/2012 8:31:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If your God cannot play by the rules he invented for his game then he has no morals and is a cheater. He can have his ball and shove it up your as s as he owns it and if you will just look up at him and smile to save your hide, then look again, the one you follow is Satan.

I pity your miserable brainwashed soul.

We are done.

Regards
DL
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/16/2012 8:44:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 8:31:55 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
If your God cannot play by the rules he invented for his game then he has no morals and is a cheater. He can have his ball and shove it up your as s as he owns it and if you will just look up at him and smile to save your hide, then look again, the one you follow is Satan.

I pity your miserable brainwashed soul.

We are done.

Regards
DL


Lets give you an excuse for being such a jack@ss...

*sprinkles crack dust on 'DLs' head*

There yah go; now we get it!

lmao
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/16/2012 9:01:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 8:53:17 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Paradox_7
You there??


Yes DOG, but I'm a little frustrated with you right now! lol

You responded to like a 1/4 of my post... I took a lot of time to address nearly everything you said your last post, and you like practically ignored most of my exegesis on the scrpture you used (1 Thess).

I understand you LOVE you Church, but you have to atleast acknoledge the possibility of their interpretation being highly perverted (mainly due to pride).
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/17/2012 9:19:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 1:49:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 12:35:27 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Ren

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is where the notion of Satan being the talking snake stems from.

You are right though in any case that the snake was punished without just cause.

So were A & E when God murdered them by denying them what would keep them alive. The tree of life.

We jail J Ws today who kill their children by denying a blood transfusion yet Christians honor their murdering God for doing the same.

Disgusting and immoral in my books.

The myth of Eden made a lot more sense with the Jewish interpretation that called our passage through Eden as our elevation to gaining a moral sense. The Christian fall version makes no sense at all.

Regards
DL


lol, you speak of God like he is on the same playing field as us.

Hence why there is no mention of a child actually being stoned for disobeying his parents in the bible, only the infamous command.. We are all guilty of this crime, so obviously we'd all need to be stoned; this didn't happen because the command was meant to break us, not endorse democide.

Romans 7:12-13

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


It's really not to difficult to understand, when you put a little honest brain power to it ;)

Awesome, I am so glad you used, of all books, Romans. That is literally my favorite book in the Bible.

First, I want to indicate that:

God is Just, we are not.

God can kill whomever he wants, and it wouldn't be immoral; He is perfect.

Are blind assertions with no quantification or reference to the Bible whatsoever.

Then, I want to ask you a question regarding:

Since we are no where near perfect, our judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity; Our actions are immoral because we have not the authority nor qualifications to take those matters into our own hands..

What about those sins that God causes us to commit?

Let's take another look at Romans, where God caused men and women to become homosexuals:

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Accordingly, you can see that the distinctions between good and evil, as well as how God personally perceives it, is blurred and indistinct. I'm sure this was on purpose, because ultimately, judgment is supposed to be left to the Lord. The only thing that man is inadequate at is rendering judgment in terms of God's perception, ultimately. As far as being a good person, that requires no prerequisite other than virtue.
TheBossToss
Posts: 154
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8/17/2012 10:17:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/16/2012 8:23:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 7:29:08 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/16/2012 1:49:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


lol, you speak of God like he is on the same playing field as us.

God is Just, we are not.

God can kill whomever he wants, and it wouldn't be immoral; He is perfect.

Since we are no where near perfect, our judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity;

Your exoneration and not knowing that murder is unjust proves your judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity. Not mine.

wow.

You don't get it do you?

Murder can only be commited by a man.

Our actions are immoral because we have not the authority nor qualifications to take those matters into our own hands..

Hence why there is no mention of a child actually being stoned for disobeying his parents in the bible, only the infamous command.. We are all guilty of this crime, so obviously we'd all need to be stoned; this didn't happen because the command was meant to break us, not endorse democide.


No but God is sure shown as killing many innocent children both at Sodom and in the genocidal flood of Noah's day. But God is the great slave owner and can do whatever he likes by your immoral judgement. He own your so called free willed as s.

Lmao, you must have not read any of my posts-- I'm a determinist AKA no such thing as free-will. So, God own all of our as s's! including you, brosef.

If God did infact create the world, and all the properties of the world, you're arguing against it is similar to if you were arguing the rules of a game with the person who invented it.


You are making the assumption God exists. You must prove he exists before you can make ridiculous statments like that. And, if everything was predetermined, then how does salvation factor into it when we had no ability to choose between good and evil?


Romans 7:12-13

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


It's really not to difficult to understand, when you put a little honest brain power to it ;)

Try it sometime.

Regards
DL
Cats. I like cats.
-Me

Pro hasn't upheld his BOP. He forfeited last round. I did stuff.
-Wallstreetatheist

That was real intellectual property theft. They used her idea for their own profit and fame. When I pirate, I am usually downloading textbooks that I cannot afford to purchase on my own and that I do not want my parents to spend money on.
-royalpaladin
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/17/2012 5:24:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/17/2012 9:19:16 AM, Ren wrote:
At 8/16/2012 1:49:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 12:35:27 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Ren

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is where the notion of Satan being the talking snake stems from.

You are right though in any case that the snake was punished without just cause.

So were A & E when God murdered them by denying them what would keep them alive. The tree of life.

We jail J Ws today who kill their children by denying a blood transfusion yet Christians honor their murdering God for doing the same.

Disgusting and immoral in my books.

The myth of Eden made a lot more sense with the Jewish interpretation that called our passage through Eden as our elevation to gaining a moral sense. The Christian fall version makes no sense at all.

Regards
DL


lol, you speak of God like he is on the same playing field as us.

Hence why there is no mention of a child actually being stoned for disobeying his parents in the bible, only the infamous command.. We are all guilty of this crime, so obviously we'd all need to be stoned; this didn't happen because the command was meant to break us, not endorse democide.

Romans 7:12-13

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


It's really not to difficult to understand, when you put a little honest brain power to it ;)

Awesome, I am so glad you used, of all books, Romans. That is literally my favorite book in the Bible.

Me too :)

First, I want to indicate that:

God is Just, we are not.

God can kill whomever he wants, and it wouldn't be immoral; He is perfect.

Are blind assertions with no quantification or reference to the Bible whatsoever.

Lol, How can Romans be your favorite book if you believe such a thing?

Romans 3 - No one is righteous, or Good.

If this is so, humans being 'just' pretty much flies out the window.

Romans 9 - The potter (God), can make out of any piece of clay(creation), a Good or sh*tty purpose.

The world is all bound by his purpose, hence, all who've been killed were killed under God's approval; including Christ.

Then, I want to ask you a question regarding:

Since we are no where near perfect, our judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity; Our actions are immoral because we have not the authority nor qualifications to take those matters into our own hands..

What about those sins that God causes us to commit?

James 1:13
13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.

Let's take another look at Romans, where God caused men and women to become homosexuals:

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Accordingly, you can see that the distinctions between good and evil, as well as how God personally perceives it, is blurred and indistinct. I'm sure this was on purpose, because ultimately, judgment is supposed to be left to the Lord. The only thing that man is inadequate at is rendering judgment in terms of God's perception, ultimately. As far as being a good person, that requires no prerequisite other than virtue.


Nothing is blurred here.

The entire world is sustained by God, and evil is a product of his withdrawal.

Giving someone over the 'their' desires, is simply withdrawing himself from that person.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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8/17/2012 5:39:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

So your deadbeat dad God not only abandoned his own son after using another man's woman but also turns his back on those he supposedly loves unconditionally.

A prick by any other name.

Oops, I can't call your owner that now can I?

Will you abandon your child if he does not share your ideas of what sin is?

Regards
DL
TheBossToss
Posts: 154
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8/17/2012 5:40:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/17/2012 5:24:06 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/17/2012 9:19:16 AM, Ren wrote:
At 8/16/2012 1:49:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/16/2012 12:35:27 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Ren

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is where the notion of Satan being the talking snake stems from.

You are right though in any case that the snake was punished without just cause.

So were A & E when God murdered them by denying them what would keep them alive. The tree of life.

We jail J Ws today who kill their children by denying a blood transfusion yet Christians honor their murdering God for doing the same.

Disgusting and immoral in my books.

The myth of Eden made a lot more sense with the Jewish interpretation that called our passage through Eden as our elevation to gaining a moral sense. The Christian fall version makes no sense at all.

Regards
DL


lol, you speak of God like he is on the same playing field as us.

Hence why there is no mention of a child actually being stoned for disobeying his parents in the bible, only the infamous command.. We are all guilty of this crime, so obviously we'd all need to be stoned; this didn't happen because the command was meant to break us, not endorse democide.

Romans 7:12-13

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


It's really not to difficult to understand, when you put a little honest brain power to it ;)

Awesome, I am so glad you used, of all books, Romans. That is literally my favorite book in the Bible.

Me too :)

First, I want to indicate that:

God is Just, we are not.

God can kill whomever he wants, and it wouldn't be immoral; He is perfect.

Are blind assertions with no quantification or reference to the Bible whatsoever.

Lol, How can Romans be your favorite book if you believe such a thing?

Romans 3 - No one is righteous, or Good.

If this is so, humans being 'just' pretty much flies out the window.

Romans 9 - The potter (God), can make out of any piece of clay(creation), a Good or sh*tty purpose.

The world is all bound by his purpose, hence, all who've been killed were killed under God's approval; including Christ.


Then, I want to ask you a question regarding:

Since we are no where near perfect, our judgements and decisions are flooded with sin and impurity; Our actions are immoral because we have not the authority nor qualifications to take those matters into our own hands..

What about those sins that God causes us to commit?

James 1:13
13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.

Let's take another look at Romans, where God caused men and women to become homosexuals:

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Accordingly, you can see that the distinctions between good and evil, as well as how God personally perceives it, is blurred and indistinct. I'm sure this was on purpose, because ultimately, judgment is supposed to be left to the Lord. The only thing that man is inadequate at is rendering judgment in terms of God's perception, ultimately. As far as being a good person, that requires no prerequisite other than virtue.


Nothing is blurred here.

The entire world is sustained by God, and evil is a product of his withdrawal.

Giving someone over the 'their' desires, is simply withdrawing himself from that person.

So why would he do that? If he loves us, why would he leave us to evil? Kinda contradictory.
Cats. I like cats.
-Me

Pro hasn't upheld his BOP. He forfeited last round. I did stuff.
-Wallstreetatheist

That was real intellectual property theft. They used her idea for their own profit and fame. When I pirate, I am usually downloading textbooks that I cannot afford to purchase on my own and that I do not want my parents to spend money on.
-royalpaladin