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The First Premise of the KCA

Rational_Thinker9119
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8/19/2012 10:43:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have never met a theist who has been able to support the first premise convincingly. The only three lines of support theists use for this is:

(i) Experience and intuition

(ii) Law of Causality in science

(iii) Something cannot come from nothing

(i) can only support the notion that things that begin within space-time have a causes which are also within space-time, contingent to causal dependencies which are also within space-time. Experience cannot stretch past that, therefore (i) is insufficient to support premise that everything that begins to exist has a cause. Also, applying every day intuition with regards to the the universe as a whole is absurd. How counter-intuitive is it to think that this vast large universe was once the size of a pin head? This defies every day experience, that doesn't mean it did not happen.

(ii) is a moot for the theist. The only way the universe could have a cause based on this line of reasoning is if the scientific principle of causality stretches the hypothetical limits of space-time. However, if the theist admits that science can stretch past the hypothetical limits of space-time, then this implies a natural cause. Thus, mentioning a scientific principle of causality to support the notion that everything that begins to exist has a cause isn't a very good move for the theist. If science cannot stretch past the hypothetical limits of space-time, then mentioning scientific principles (which quantum mechanics puts in to question anyway) to support the idea that the universe had a cause, is useless.

(iii) Something can begin to exist, even if it is not from nothing. If this happened, without a cause, the first premise would be falsified even if the beginning of the existence in question did not come from nothing. Imagine a sheet of paper. Nothing changes internally within the paper, and nothing changes in the environment of the paper. Now, imagine a dent in the paper begins to exist. The dent began to exist from pre-existing paper, but nothing changed internally within the paper which could have caused it, and nothing changed in the environment which could have externally caused it. This would mean, the first premise would be falsified because something began to exist without a cause (even it was not from nothing). This means, the concept of ex nihilo nihil fit cannot be used as a priori support for the first premise. This is because, the concept of ex nihilo nihil fit could be completely true, while the first premise could be completely false.

Basically, no theistic support I know of for the first premise suffices. How could the theist possibly support the premise with such a heavy burden? Everything that begins to exist has a cause? I find it virtually impossible to support such a claim.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/19/2012 11:17:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Dogknox
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8/19/2012 11:21:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Rational_Thinker9119 Good to meet you...
I reply: You have a mind that says; "If I cannot see it, I will not believe it"!!

You see MIRACLES, but you reject them... Why!?
Google "Lourdes France" Millions of people go there annually hoping for a miracle and thousands are healed.. A mountain of Crutches, Canes and Wheel Chairs; PROVE the miracles!!

Sixty Seven documented, researched PROVEN Miracles, in some cases, whole limbs grown back! Over one hundred years of pilgrims searching for cures and finding them by having FAITH IN God and his power!

Give it your best shot.... Prove there is NO God!!! After all your very soul depends on your research...WHAT IF..
Rational_Thinker9119 What if you are wrong and there "IS" a God, you might spend eternity in a Lake of Fire! If I am wrong and there is NO God, then I like you would push up daisy, I lose very little but a some of my life spent is prayer!

Rational_Thinker9119 I wait for your proof!!

Dogknox
P.S. The Miracles of "Lourdes France" are NOT the only PROVEN Miracles.. I just started with them, there have been recorded MIRACLES for the past two thousand years!!!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/19/2012 11:29:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 11:17:52 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:


"If God don't exist, who wrote The Bible? That question in itself destroys Atheism because, you can't just buy somebodies book, and say they don't exist. It's a paradoxicalism. That's why Atheists aren't so intelligent. See, by Atheist logic AK Rowling don't exist."

"That want us to believe, that we came form DNA. Which is, Deoxyribonucleic acid. Again, smart believers contradicted that because anybody who did biology knows, that whatever you put in acid dissolves. Acid don't make no humans."

"So Atheism don't really make no sense, Ya know? Evolution. This animal turns into that animal. I had a dog for fifteen years. Guess what? Still a dog!"

AHHAHAHA This was hilarious.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/19/2012 11:40:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 11:21:05 AM, Dogknox wrote:
Rational_Thinker9119 Good to meet you...
I reply: You have a mind that says; "If I cannot see it, I will not believe it"!!

Staw-man. When did I say that if I do not see something I don't believe it exists? I cannot see sub-atomic particles, gravity, or oxygen. Yet I believe in all of them. So, quit picking at a man made of straw.


You see MIRACLES, but you reject them... Why!?
Google "Lourdes France" Millions of people go there annually hoping for a miracle and thousands are healed.. A mountain of Crutches, Canes and Wheel Chairs; PROVE the miracles!!

I see no miracles. Also, post a link if you want to be taken seriously. Can you support your claim that miracles with evidence? I googled "Lourdes France" and nothing to do with miracles came up.


Sixty Seven documented, researched PROVEN Miracles, in some cases, whole limbs grown back! Over one hundred years of pilgrims searching for cures and finding them by having FAITH IN God and his power!

Prove it. I found nothing on google.


Give it your best shot.... Prove there is NO God!!! After all your very soul depends on your research...WHAT IF..
Rational_Thinker9119 What if you are wrong and there "IS" a God, you might spend eternity in a Lake of Fire! If I am wrong and there is NO God, then I like you would push up daisy, I lose very little but a some of my life spent is prayer!

What if you are wrong about all the other religions that say you will perish if you don't believe? What if Islam is right and you go to hell for praising a mere man as a God (Jesus), which is forbidden in Islam? What if you perish for not recognizing Mohammed as the most important Prophet? Regardless, belief out of fear is for the weak minded. Beliefs should be backed up my logic and reason. I have as much fear of hell as I do of the ice monster on the moon of Europa. There is no evidence for it.


Rational_Thinker9119 I wait for your proof!!

I never claimed God didn't exist, you claimed he did. You are committing the logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. The burden is not on me to show that God does not exist. The burden is on you to show he does.


Dogknox
P.S. The Miracles of "Lourdes France" are NOT the only PROVEN Miracles.. I just started with them, there have been recorded MIRACLES for the past two thousand years!!!

Prove the miracles. So far, all I see is you spewing nonsense.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/19/2012 11:56:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: <(XD)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Rational_Thinker9119
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8/19/2012 1:27:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 12:48:11 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
Funny. I've never met an atheist who was able to argue against the first premise convincingly.

Of course you have, you've met me twice already in debates on this very subject that you have failed to defeat me in. Would you care to have a third go at this?
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/19/2012 2:17:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 12:48:11 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
Funny. I've never met an atheist who was able to argue against the first premise convincingly.

The Fool: Yeah but you guys tend to have an extra faith bind. You have more emotional resistence. Its not a possible observation and matter cannot be created or destroyed, in a natural sense.

Just the very fact that if one premise has shown to be false. You can never argue it again without changing the premise. That is weird... There is nothing rational about arguing a dead argument. We do it for debates but you should know better.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Dogknox
Posts: 5,039
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8/19/2012 2:53:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 11:40:49 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 8/19/2012 11:21:05 AM, Dogknox wrote:
Rational_Thinker9119 Good to meet you...
I reply: You have a mind that says; "If I cannot see it, I will not believe it"!!

Staw-man. When did I say that if I do not see something I don't believe it exists? I cannot see sub-atomic particles, gravity, or oxygen. Yet I believe in all of them. So, quit picking at a man made of straw.


You see MIRACLES, but you reject them... Why!?
Google "Lourdes France" Millions of people go there annually hoping for a miracle and thousands are healed.. A mountain of Crutches, Canes and Wheel Chairs; PROVE the miracles!!

I see no miracles. Also, post a link if you want to be taken seriously. Can you support your claim that miracles with evidence? I googled "Lourdes France" and nothing to do with miracles came up.


Sixty Seven documented, researched PROVEN Miracles, in some cases, whole limbs grown back! Over one hundred years of pilgrims searching for cures and finding them by having FAITH IN God and his power!

Prove it. I found nothing on google.


Give it your best shot.... Prove there is NO God!!! After all your very soul depends on your research...WHAT IF..
Rational_Thinker9119 What if you are wrong and there "IS" a God, you might spend eternity in a Lake of Fire! If I am wrong and there is NO God, then I like you would push up daisy, I lose very little but a some of my life spent is prayer!

What if you are wrong about all the other religions that say you will perish if you don't believe? What if Islam is right and you go to hell for praising a mere man as a God (Jesus), which is forbidden in Islam? What if you perish for not recognizing Mohammed as the most important Prophet? Regardless, belief out of fear is for the weak minded. Beliefs should be backed up my logic and reason. I have as much fear of hell as I do of the ice monster on the moon of Europa. There is no evidence for it.


Rational_Thinker9119 I wait for your proof!!

I never claimed God didn't exist, you claimed he did. You are committing the logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. The burden is not on me to show that God does not exist. The burden is on you to show he does.


Dogknox
P.S. The Miracles of "Lourdes France" are NOT the only PROVEN Miracles.. I just started with them, there have been recorded MIRACLES for the past two thousand years!!!

Prove the miracles. So far, all I see is you spewing nonsense.

Rational_Thinker9119 Do your own homework..
Lourdes, France
gofrance.about.com/od/othercities/a/lourdes.htm Lourdes, France is a bustling Pyrenees village, best known for famous Virgin Mary sightings, that is central to several other great cities and attractions. Lourdes ...
LOURDES, FRANCE
In 1858, a fourteen-year-old peasant girl named Bernadette Soubirous had a series of eighteen visions of the Virgin Mary who appeared in a niche in the grotto of Massabielle near Lourdes, a village on the Gave de Pau river in the foothills of the Pyrenees in southern France. The first apparition occurred on 11 February 1858.

During her ninth apparition, on 25 February, Bernadette claimed to have been directed to a spring that had hitherto not existed in the grotto. Its discovery by Bernadette, witnessed by hundreds of onlookers, was eventually declared miraculous. Later studies have shown that the water is pure and contains chlorides of soda, lime and magnesia, bicarbonates of lime and magnesia, silicates of lime and aluminium, oxide of iron, sulphate of soda, phosphate, and organic matter. Otherwise, it is believed to contain no therapeutic ingredients.

The Miraculous Spring in the Grotto at Lourdes
Subsequently, however, the water was claimed to be capable of healing the sick and lame. Of the many thousands of pilgrims who visit Lourdes every year, some claim to be have been miraculously healed. It is estimated that the spring has produced 27,000 gallons of water each week since it first emerged during Bernadette's visions.
etc
etc
etc

You said.. Staw-man. When did I say that if I do not see something I don't believe it exists?
I reply: PROVING God does Exist and you can't see him!!!

Rational_Thinker9119 I BELIEVE God Exists!!!! I have FAITH God Exists!
You BELIEVE; God does NOT Exist!!!! You have FAITH God does NOT Exist!! Both you and I have FAITH!!!

Both you and I have our BELIEFS!!!

Rational_Thinker9119 But I can PROVE God does Exist because of the MIRACLES he does!

Rational_Thinker9119 You can't prove there is NO Miracles!!! You are forced to reject the obvious!!! You must reject miracles because you can't PROVE there is NO God! There is no science that dis-proves MIRACLES!

Rational_Thinker9119 All you have is your own faith, you trust in yourself and your FAITH!!! Your beliefs are opposite to mine but it still comes down to BELIEVING!!!!

Dogknox
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/19/2012 3:27:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 2:53:41 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 8/19/2012 11:40:49 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 8/19/2012 11:21:05 AM, Dogknox wrote:
Rational_Thinker9119 Good to meet you...
I reply: You have a mind that says; "If I cannot see it, I will not believe it"!!

Staw-man. When did I say that if I do not see something I don't believe it exists? I cannot see sub-atomic particles, gravity, or oxygen. Yet I believe in all of them. So, quit picking at a man made of straw.


You see MIRACLES, but you reject them... Why!?
Google "Lourdes France" Millions of people go there annually hoping for a miracle and thousands are healed.. A mountain of Crutches, Canes and Wheel Chairs; PROVE the miracles!!

I see no miracles. Also, post a link if you want to be taken seriously. Can you support your claim that miracles with evidence? I googled "Lourdes France" and nothing to do with miracles came up.


Sixty Seven documented, researched PROVEN Miracles, in some cases, whole limbs grown back! Over one hundred years of pilgrims searching for cures and finding them by having FAITH IN God and his power!

Prove it. I found nothing on google.


Give it your best shot.... Prove there is NO God!!! After all your very soul depends on your research...WHAT IF..
Rational_Thinker9119 What if you are wrong and there "IS" a God, you might spend eternity in a Lake of Fire! If I am wrong and there is NO God, then I like you would push up daisy, I lose very little but a some of my life spent is prayer!

What if you are wrong about all the other religions that say you will perish if you don't believe? What if Islam is right and you go to hell for praising a mere man as a God (Jesus), which is forbidden in Islam? What if you perish for not recognizing Mohammed as the most important Prophet? Regardless, belief out of fear is for the weak minded. Beliefs should be backed up my logic and reason. I have as much fear of hell as I do of the ice monster on the moon of Europa. There is no evidence for it.


Rational_Thinker9119 I wait for your proof!!

I never claimed God didn't exist, you claimed he did. You are committing the logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. The burden is not on me to show that God does not exist. The burden is on you to show he does.


Dogknox
P.S. The Miracles of "Lourdes France" are NOT the only PROVEN Miracles.. I just started with them, there have been recorded MIRACLES for the past two thousand years!!!

Prove the miracles. So far, all I see is you spewing nonsense.

Rational_Thinker9119 Do your own homework..
Lourdes, France
gofrance.about.com/od/othercities/a/lourdes.htm Lourdes, France is a bustling Pyrenees village, best known for famous Virgin Mary sightings, that is central to several other great cities and attractions. Lourdes ...

How do you know these sightings are genuine? People sight UFOs all the time when they they can all be debunked. People claim to have seen Big Foot as well. These "sightings" are either hoaxes or misunderstandings in all reality. You have still failed to demonstrate that any likely miracle appeared.

LOURDES, FRANCE
In 1858, a fourteen-year-old peasant girl named Bernadette Soubirous had a series of eighteen visions of the Virgin Mary who appeared in a niche in the grotto of Massabielle near Lourdes, a village on the Gave de Pau river in the foothills of the Pyrenees in southern France. The first apparition occurred on 11 February 1858.

This girl probably hallucinated. This obviously served as the psychological seed which had people "seeing" the virgin mary as well by misinterpreting reality wrong. You really need to raise your standard of evidence.


During her ninth apparition, on 25 February, Bernadette claimed to have been directed to a spring that had hitherto not existed in the grotto. Its discovery by Bernadette, witnessed by hundreds of onlookers, was eventually declared miraculous. Later studies have shown that the water is pure and contains chlorides of soda, lime and magnesia, bicarbonates of lime and magnesia, silicates of lime and aluminium, oxide of iron, sulphate of soda, phosphate, and organic matter. Otherwise, it is believed to contain no therapeutic ingredients.

Calling something a miracle doesn't make it supernatural. This is pathetic if this is your evidence for God.


The Miraculous Spring in the Grotto at Lourdes
Subsequently, however, the water was claimed to be capable of healing the sick and lame. Of the many thousands of pilgrims who visit Lourdes every year, some claim to be have been miraculously healed. It is estimated that the spring has produced 27,000 gallons of water each week since it first emerged during Bernadette's visions.
etc
etc
etc


Ya the water "was claimed" to heal the sick. A lot of things get claimed, this is not evidence in the slightest.

You said.. Staw-man. When did I say that if I do not see something I don't believe it exists?
I reply: PROVING God does Exist and you can't see him!!!

What evidence or reasoning do you have that God exists? You certainty have not established this based on your arguments above.


Rational_Thinker9119 I BELIEVE God Exists!!!! I have FAITH God Exists!

Good for you.

You BELIEVE; God does NOT Exist!!!! You have FAITH God does NOT Exist!! Both you and I have FAITH!!!

I don't have faith God does not exist. I never claimed to hold knowledge that theism is false. My position is that theism is unfounded. With theism being defined as "the theory that God exists".


Both you and I have our BELIEFS!!!

Yes, we both have many beliefs. What is your point?


Rational_Thinker9119 But I can PROVE God does Exist because of the MIRACLES he does!

You have no evidence that miracles actually happen though. Quoting myths and legends based virgin mary sightings means absolutely nothing. People claim a lot weirder things. You have no method to develop fact from fiction, so you delude yourself by believing any miracle myths you hear with no compelling evidence to support it.


Rational_Thinker9119 You can't prove there is NO Miracles!!! You are forced to reject the obvious!!! You must reject miracles because you can't PROVE there is NO God! There is no science that dis-proves MIRACLES!

I never claimed to have knowledge that there are no miracles. My position is that your claims are unfounded, and I proved that.


Rational_Thinker9119 All you have is your own faith, you trust in yourself and your FAITH!!! Your beliefs are opposite to mine but it still comes down to BELIEVING!!!!

Yes, we all believe things. Once again, what is your point?


Dogknox
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/19/2012 3:32:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 2:53:41 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 8/19/2012 11:40:49 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 8/19/2012 11:21:05 AM, Dogknox wrote:
Rational_Thinker9119 Good to meet you...
I reply: You have a mind that says; "If I cannot see it, I will not believe it"!!

Staw-man. When did I say that if I do not see something I don't believe it exists? I cannot see sub-atomic particles, gravity, or oxygen. Yet I believe in all of them. So, quit picking at a man made of straw.


You see MIRACLES, but you reject them... Why!?
Google "Lourdes France" Millions of people go there annually hoping for a miracle and thousands are healed.. A mountain of Crutches, Canes and Wheel Chairs; PROVE the miracles!!

I see no miracles. Also, post a link if you want to be taken seriously. Can you support your claim that miracles with evidence? I googled "Lourdes France" and nothing to do with miracles came up.


Sixty Seven documented, researched PROVEN Miracles, in some cases, whole limbs grown back! Over one hundred years of pilgrims searching for cures and finding them by having FAITH IN God and his power!

Prove it. I found nothing on google.


Give it your best shot.... Prove there is NO God!!! After all your very soul depends on your research...WHAT IF..
Rational_Thinker9119 What if you are wrong and there "IS" a God, you might spend eternity in a Lake of Fire! If I am wrong and there is NO God, then I like you would push up daisy, I lose very little but a some of my life spent is prayer!

What if you are wrong about all the other religions that say you will perish if you don't believe? What if Islam is right and you go to hell for praising a mere man as a God (Jesus), which is forbidden in Islam? What if you perish for not recognizing Mohammed as the most important Prophet? Regardless, belief out of fear is for the weak minded. Beliefs should be backed up my logic and reason. I have as much fear of hell as I do of the ice monster on the moon of Europa. There is no evidence for it.


Rational_Thinker9119 I wait for your proof!!

I never claimed God didn't exist, you claimed he did. You are committing the logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. The burden is not on me to show that God does not exist. The burden is on you to show he does.


Dogknox
P.S. The Miracles of "Lourdes France" are NOT the only PROVEN Miracles.. I just started with them, there have been recorded MIRACLES for the past two thousand years!!!

Prove the miracles. So far, all I see is you spewing nonsense.

Rational_Thinker9119 Do your own homework..
Lourdes, France
gofrance.about.com/od/othercities/a/lourdes.htm Lourdes, France is a bustling Pyrenees village, best known for famous Virgin Mary sightings, that is central to several other great cities and attractions. Lourdes ...
LOURDES, FRANCE
In 1858, a fourteen-year-old peasant girl named Bernadette Soubirous had a series of eighteen visions of the Virgin Mary who appeared in a niche in the grotto of Massabielle near Lourdes, a village on the Gave de Pau river in the foothills of the Pyrenees in southern France. The first apparition occurred on 11 February 1858.

During her ninth apparition, on 25 February, Bernadette claimed to have been directed to a spring that had hitherto not existed in the grotto. Its discovery by Bernadette, witnessed by hundreds of onlookers, was eventually declared miraculous. Later studies have shown that the water is pure and contains chlorides of soda, lime and magnesia, bicarbonates of lime and magnesia, silicates of lime and aluminium, oxide of iron, sulphate of soda, phosphate, and organic matter. Otherwise, it is believed to contain no therapeutic ingredients.

The Miraculous Spring in the Grotto at Lourdes
Subsequently, however, the water was claimed to be capable of healing the sick and lame. Of the many thousands of pilgrims who visit Lourdes every year, some claim to be have been miraculously healed. It is estimated that the spring has produced 27,000 gallons of water each week since it first emerged during Bernadette's visions.
etc
etc
etc

You said.. Staw-man. When did I say that if I do not see something I don't believe it exists?
I reply: PROVING God does Exist and you can't see him!!!

Rational_Thinker9119 I BELIEVE God Exists!!!! I have FAITH God Exists!
You BELIEVE; God does NOT Exist!!!! You have FAITH God does NOT Exist!! Both you and I have FAITH!!!

The Fool: Noo! we don;'t have faith. IF that is true then you would have to say that we have faith in not Elmo, and faith in NOT dragons And faith is not unicorns, to infinity. That we have Faith in infinity not things. NONSENSE!!!!!
That is crazy talk!!!

Both you and I have our BELIEFS!!!

The Fool: Nobody has faith in non-existence.

Rational_Thinker9119 But I can PROVE God does Exist because of the MIRACLES he does!

Rational_Thinker9119 You can't prove there is NO Miracles!!! You are forced to reject the obvious!!! You must reject miracles because you can't PROVE there is NO God! There is no science that dis-proves MIRACLES!

Rational_Thinker9119 All you have is your own faith, you trust in yourself and your FAITH!!! Your beliefs are opposite to mine but it still comes down to BELIEVING!!!!

Dogknox
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Dogknox
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8/19/2012 4:06:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Rational_Thinker9119 You asked..
How do you know these sightings are genuine? People sight UFOs all the time when they they can all be debunked. People claim to have seen Big Foot as well. These "sightings" are either hoaxes or misunderstandings in all reality. You have still failed to demonstrate that any likely miracle appeared.
I reply: I trust the experts! Like you I KNOW there are ATOMS and I can't prove a lick, myself! I KNOW they are real because the mountain of Crutches, canes and wheel chairs testify to the MIRACLES! Again DO your own homework.. There are recorded Miracles though out history all attributed to "GOD"!

Your words.. This girl probably hallucinated. This obviously served as the psychological seed which had people "seeing" the virgin mary as well by misinterpreting reality wrong. You really need to raise your standard of evidence.
You PROVE my point.. As predicted; You MUST reject the miracles because you can't dis-prove them!!
Back to the first question: "PROVE there is NO GOD!!?" ha-ha

You said.. I don't have faith God does not exist. I never claimed to hold knowledge that theism is false. My position is that theism is unfounded. With theism being defined as "the theory that God exists".

Unfounded/false is no difference!! Science tells us everything is THEORY until proven!! I PROVE to you, there are Miraculous healing, all attributed to GOD! You cannot prove different (except outright denial) no proof of any kind!
I believe there is a GOD!
You believe there is Not!
Your words.. You have no evidence that miracles actually happen though. Quoting myths and legends based virgin mary sightings means absolutely nothing. People claim a lot weirder things. You have no method to develop fact from fiction, so you delude yourself by believing any miracle myths you hear with no compelling evidence to support it.

I reply: This is just it.. "Miracles" are NOT miracles if they are explainable! God made water into Ice last winter! Miracle?? No the cold night made the Ice! Jesus walked on Water/Peter walked on water.. Miracle??? YES because no science can explain!!

THOUSANDS of people healed.. THOUSANDS over the past 150 years!! A MOUNTAIN of Crutches!!! Hmmm do I believe?? Should you believe; YES if you think it through, you can fool some of the people but NOT THOUSANDS!!! You refuse to look deeper into Lourdes but claim to trust Science and THEORY until proven!

Rational_Thinker9119 Go ahead..PROVE the Miracles FALSE!!!!!

Rational_Thinker9119 Your FAITH is all you got!! You have FAITH there is no God! My point is if you could PROVE theism is unfounded then you would have a point! Until you can PROVE theism is wrong then MY POINT STANDS!!

LOGIC TELLS YOU: Theist' have FAITH, they have a BELIEF, this is what makes them THEISTS!!
Otherwise they would be Scientists!!! DUH and DUH again!!
Rational_Thinker9119
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8/19/2012 4:39:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 4:06:08 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Rational_Thinker9119 You asked..
How do you know these sightings are genuine? People sight UFOs all the time when they they can all be debunked. People claim to have seen Big Foot as well. These "sightings" are either hoaxes or misunderstandings in all reality. You have still failed to demonstrate that any likely miracle appeared.
I reply: I trust the experts! Like you I KNOW there are ATOMS and I can't prove a lick, myself! I KNOW they are real because the mountain of Crutches, canes and wheel chairs testify to the MIRACLES! Again DO your own homework.. There are recorded Miracles though out history all attributed to "GOD"!

How are the people who testified to this experts? Experts in what field exactly? You dodged my question, how do you know it is genuine? You just take cooky stories in their word not based on any science at all?


Your words.. This girl probably hallucinated. This obviously served as the psychological seed which had people "seeing" the virgin mary as well by misinterpreting reality wrong. You really need to raise your standard of evidence.
You PROVE my point.. As predicted; You MUST reject the miracles because you can't dis-prove them!!
Back to the first question: "PROVE there is NO GOD!!?" ha-ha

You are committing the logical fallacy called switching the burden of proof. I never claimed there were no miracles, you claimed there were. Thus, you have the burden of proving the miracles were real by ruling out all other scenarios. Since you failed to do this, my position is correct. Your claims are unfounded, and you have provided no real evidence for anything.


You said.. I don't have faith God does not exist. I never claimed to hold knowledge that theism is false. My position is that theism is unfounded. With theism being defined as "the theory that God exists".

Unfounded/false is no difference!! Science tells us everything is THEORY until proven!! I PROVE to you, there are Miraculous healing, all attributed to GOD! You cannot prove different (except outright denial) no proof of any kind!

I'm starting to think you are a troll. Unfounded is not the same thing as false. You have provided no proof of any miracles, so you have failed at your task. You simply provided cooky word of mouth stories from random people.

I believe there is a GOD!
You believe there is Not!

My position it that theism (the theory that God exists) is without foundation.

Your words.. You have no evidence that miracles actually happen though. Quoting myths and legends based virgin mary sightings means absolutely nothing. People claim a lot weirder things. You have no method to develop fact from fiction, so you delude yourself by believing any miracle myths you hear with no compelling evidence to support it.

I reply: This is just it.. "Miracles" are NOT miracles if they are explainable! God made water into Ice last winter! Miracle?? No the cold night made the Ice! Jesus walked on Water/Peter walked on water.. Miracle??? YES because no science can explain!!

You haven't even proven there is anything to explain. You have just presented old word of mouth stories. You haven't ruled out misinterpretations, hallucinations, or the stories losing their way though a game of broken telephone. The burden is on you to rule these things out, since you have failed, you have 0 proof of any miracles. You are still just spewing nonsense.


THOUSANDS of people healed.. THOUSANDS over the past 150 years!! A MOUNTAIN of Crutches!!! Hmmm do I believe?? Should you believe; YES if you think it through, you can fool some of the people but NOT THOUSANDS!!! You refuse to look deeper into Lourdes but claim to trust Science and THEORY until proven!

You haven't proven anyone got healed. You are simply repeating a story, told my people who heard a story. Myths and legends not backed up science is not proof. I'm still waiting for even a shred of compelling evidence that God exists from you. You haven't ruled out other explanations, thus you failed at your task, as expected.


Rational_Thinker9119 Go ahead..PROVE the Miracles FALSE!!!!!

Shifting the burden of proof fallacy. You have to prove them true, you haven't thus you fail.


Rational_Thinker9119 Your FAITH is all you got!! You have FAITH there is no God! My point is if you could PROVE theism is unfounded then you would have a point! Until you can PROVE theism is wrong then MY POINT STANDS!!

I have proven your claims unfounded. You present myth stories not backed up by any peer-reviewed science, and you haven't ruled out other explanations. Thus, nobody should rationally accept anything you said as poof of God.


LOGIC TELLS YOU: Theist' have FAITH, they have a BELIEF, this is what makes them THEISTS!!
Otherwise they would be Scientists!!! DUH and DUH again!!

Dude, just give it up. You are clearly a troll. I thought you were going to have evidence, but you prevent stories not backed up by science. Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence. You don't even have ordinary evidence. Your whole presentation has been a blunder, and you have failed to establish God's existence. I succeeded in showing that your claims of miracles are unfounded.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/19/2012 5:28:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What is the purpose? Truely. Atheist can not prove God doesnt exist. For one you suggest science, Well science itself suggest 11 dimensions atleast. What happens in the other 8? Does anything happen at all in them? Common sense should suggest that within those 8 we do not know and atheist and science will never. Theist have no reason nor purpose trying to prove God exist because they cant. So why do they try, they have proved God to themselves and thats all that matters. Theist should realize that some people just wont know God or believe and there is nothing they can do about it. Maybe some of these people are on this very site. Let them be faithless and unknowing because obviuosly that is thier pupose, to oppose God. Let them do thier job and ignore them.
TheAsylum
SarcasticIndeed
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8/19/2012 5:59:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 5:28:03 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
What is the purpose? Truely. Atheist can not prove God doesnt exist. For one you suggest science, Well science itself suggest 11 dimensions atleast. What happens in the other 8? Does anything happen at all in them? Common sense should suggest that within those 8 we do not know and atheist and science will never. Theist have no reason nor purpose trying to prove God exist because they cant. So why do they try, they have proved God to themselves and thats all that matters. Theist should realize that some people just wont know God or believe and there is nothing they can do about it. Maybe some of these people are on this very site. Let them be faithless and unknowing because obviuosly that is thier pupose, to oppose God. Let them do thier job and ignore them.

The other dimensions are so small and curved into themselves we don't even have to know what is in them. Unless you think in those dimension God resides, of course.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/19/2012 6:03:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 5:59:48 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 8/19/2012 5:28:03 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
What is the purpose? Truely. Atheist can not prove God doesnt exist. For one you suggest science, Well science itself suggest 11 dimensions atleast. What happens in the other 8? Does anything happen at all in them? Common sense should suggest that within those 8 we do not know and atheist and science will never. Theist have no reason nor purpose trying to prove God exist because they cant. So why do they try, they have proved God to themselves and thats all that matters. Theist should realize that some people just wont know God or believe and there is nothing they can do about it. Maybe some of these people are on this very site. Let them be faithless and unknowing because obviuosly that is thier pupose, to oppose God. Let them do thier job and ignore them.

The other dimensions are so small and curved into themselves we don't even have to know what is in them. Unless you think in those dimension God resides, of course.

The Fool: Just give me the criteria of God
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Rational_Thinker9119
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8/19/2012 6:09:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 5:28:03 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
What is the purpose? Truely. Atheist can not prove God doesnt exist. For one you suggest science, Well science itself suggest 11 dimensions atleast.

No Theist can prove God exists. Also, science does not suggest M-Theory. M-Theory is clever math but it is messy, backed up by nothing empirical, and has many problems with it that have not sufficiently been addressed by it's advocates. Calling M-Theory "science" at this point, is a stretch.

What happens in the other 8? Does anything happen at all in them? Common sense should suggest that within those 8 we do not know and atheist and science will never.

Who says we could not build some sort of super worm hole, to travel into another dimension? How do you know that the frequencies of two dimensions could not cross paths on the same level, and thus, give us entry to other dimensions? How do you know, that other intelligent species haven't already figured out how to do this? You say that common sense suggests that science will "never" figure it out, however if you know anything about science, you will know that science may surprise you, and you could turn out dead wrong in your beliefs (as we all could).

Theist have no reason nor purpose trying to prove God exist because they cant. So why do they try, they have proved God to themselves and thats all that matters. Theist should realize that some people just wont know God or believe and there is nothing they can do about it.

You infer that it is a fact that people know God, thus you are claiming God exists. This claim requires a burden of proof to be met to be taken seriously. If you cannot meet this burden, then it is not rational for anybody to think it is true that people know God, and that God exists. Statements like this require evidence (especially on a debate website). If you do not care about showing evidence for God, then don't make statements which beg for support.

Maybe some of these people are on this very site. Let them be faithless and unknowing because obviuosly that is thier pupose, to oppose God. Let them do thier job and ignore them.

You say there is knowledge to be had about God's existence. You also say a God exists to oppose. However, without support for this statement, it is utterly worthless and meaningless. There is knowledge to be known about the Ice monster of Europa, he is what causes nightmares and triggers sneezing telepathically. Do you think this is a meaningless statement? It is because it is. Just like your statement that there is knowledge to be known of God's existence, and there is a God to oppose, without any support. You might as well assert the Wicked Witch of the West exists as well while your at it. With no support, statements of truth mean absolutely nothing.
Illegalcombatant
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8/19/2012 7:55:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 10:43:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I have never met a theist who has been able to support the first premise convincingly. The only three lines of support theists use for this is:

(i) Experience and intuition

(ii) Law of Causality in science

(iii) Something cannot come from nothing


My spider senses tell me this thread has gone a bit off the rails, so how about we get back to the first premise of KCA.

(i) Experience and intuition

The intuition argument is easily defeated, we can shows how intuitions have made people believe things that are false time and time again.

(ii) Law of Causality in science

I have heard it said that some one like William Craig is not using the scientific concept of causality, but that raises the question, what the hell is the scientific concept of causality ? I assume it has time linked into causality as a necessary pre condition, if that's the case, then william craigs timeless cause, cause that doesn't exist temporally prioir to its effect etc becomes a huge problem.

(iii) Something cannot come from nothing

"come from" being the key term here. Its only applicable to things in time even if this claim is true. That's why God gets a free pass on not needing a cause cause its existence didn't "come from" any where.

But if the universe didn't "come from" anywhere that means it doesn't need a cause either.

Note" Come from" here is interpreted as meaning that X exists and that X did not exist at a previous point in time.

Ya know, there have been alot of debates on KCA, but I can't recall seeing a debate just soley on the first premise alone. Hmmm this is a debate site, are you thinking what Im thinking ? Keytar Hero seems keen.........
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Dogknox
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8/20/2012 12:13:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Rational_Thinker9119
There are two doors: One door has written; "I believe there is a God"! The other door has written; "I believe there is NOT a God"!

You have chosen to open and walk through the second door, The "I believe there is NOT a God" door. QUESTION: WHY???!!!
Rational_Thinker9119 Both require "Faith and BELIEVING!" Both doors require you to COMMIT, to step through!!!

WHY
WHY
WHY
You have soooo much more to lose by choosing the door you did!
Rational Thinker??? I think NOT!!!
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 3:17:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 12:13:12 AM, Dogknox wrote:
Rational_Thinker9119
There are two doors: One door has written; "I believe there is a God"! The other door has written; "I believe there is NOT a God"!

You have chosen to open and walk through the second door, The "I believe there is NOT a God" door. QUESTION: WHY???!!!
Rational_Thinker9119 Both require "Faith and BELIEVING!" Both doors require you to COMMIT, to step through!!!

WHY
WHY
WHY
You have soooo much more to lose by choosing the door you did!
Rational Thinker??? I think NOT!!!

The truest thing ive heard in awhile Dogknox.
TheAsylum
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/20/2012 7:04:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Saying "something cannot come from nothing proves the first premise" is, I always thought, a terrible way to prove something. This means that, for the argument to be true, we have to observe all things in the world at all stages, which is in all reasonable thought impossible. Further, it makes the argument unverifiable as a result, as it will always be on edge, waiting for someone to find an example that disproves it, and never actually strengthening its position.

The idea that something cannot come from nothing further doesn't support the argument, because it doesn't change matter from existing before time, nor does it stop the argument being able to be disproven. Most of all, it does not make the argument true, but just puts in a blinker from a certain area. It negates a criticism, but as a result stops the argument from proving itself.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 9:34:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
for the argument to be true, we have to observe all things in the world at all stages, which is in all reasonable thought impossible. Further, it makes the argument unverifiable as a result, :

This applies to science also.
TheAsylum