Total Posts:55|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

God: Moral perfection & moral understanding

phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 1:11:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In an analogy Kant used in "Groundwork of the metaphysics of morals" to make an entirely different point to the purpose of this thread, but still one that made me start thinking, he talked about how a man heavily gifted with patience might look down on those who are impatient. His own valued attribute caused him to have a higher expectancy on other people due to the fact that he himself did not fully understand the nature of impatience, it not being a characteristic he was accustomed too.

I've heard Christians and other religious people make similar claims about God. If you're like me, you've probably questioned why exactly God would view us as so sinful and immoral such to the extent that we deserve extreme punishment. Aren't we just born this way? I can't help the way I am. Sin seems inescapable, not something anyone would expect us to overcome. The Christian, would respond that God is a morally perfect being and we are so much far from that that we would be by necessity viewed this way by him. However, I'd have to contend that if God is morally perfect, certainly moral understanding would be an attributed possessed by a such a moral being.

By moral understanding I shall return to the initial analogy. The man possessing patience did not posses moral understanding. If he had possessed moral understanding, he would have understood that not everyone was gifted like he was and thus would not judge them in such a way.

I think that everyone would agree it is better to have moral understanding than not to have, and that any morally perfect being would possess such an attribute. However, it is clear that the Christian God does not seem to have moral understanding. He may be according to the popular concepts, kind, just and compassionate, but not by any standards is he characterized with such a trait as moral understanding.

I've raised the point before that we could pose the question of whether we are more morally compassionate than God by simply stating no, or few, humans want other humans to go to hell. The point was addressed by the premise that Gods extreme goodness and sense of justice causes him to be so much infinitely better than us that we are necessarily by his standards, creatures deserving of hell.

I'd have to raise one other simple point though. You are not morally accountable unless you are morally responsible. We are not morally accountable for our sinful nature unless we are morally responsible for it. You could argue that we partially are responsible but in the largest sense, we are completely out of any realm of responsibility. Anyone believing in morality would agree that we are sinful by nature. That we are born sinful and moral perfection is an unattainable position, at least in this world. It follows that we are not to blame for our sinful nature. We were born with it and even if we wanted to be perfect, we could not.

Now back to the main point. I think it is safe to say we can't be viewed as completely morally accountable for our sinful nature, but even this isn't enough for the the religious. As asserted, they say that a being who is infinitely better than us morally, will necessarily judge us this way as his standards will be much higher. Basically that it is all about context. The morally good humans view the liars and cheats negatively, so would not a morally perfect being look ever so much more negatively on us who are so far from such a position? However, if we are to say that, then we can be of the substantiated position that a moral flaw can indeed be found in Gods character and can thus we can deem this God as non-existent. The flaw would be his moral understanding. The purposed God would not have any moral understanding of us sinful beings. If he did, he would know that sin was inevitable in our lives and the we were not wholly accountable for our nature. That we do not deserve such punishment as hell, or much punishment at all really. The moral standards set for humans would be lowered if God understood our moral plight. I think it safe to say, such a God as purposed by Christianity has set the standards far far above our reach meaning that he has done an immoral thing and thus is really not morally perfect...Or existent.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 1:55:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: We are Good by nature, we make mistakes but we can be Good. The Bible tells you that you are weak and Bad. It puts us down to make us feel worthless. Its oppression. We are Good!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 5:14:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 1:55:55 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: We are Good by nature, we make mistakes but we can be Good. The Bible tells you that you are weak and Bad. It puts us down to make us feel worthless. Its oppression. We are Good!


That is laughable....So I guess war, famine, murder, rape and general hate is good, Sure. You havent studied man's history then.
TheAsylum
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 5:49:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: Its caused by Ideology/Religion.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2012 6:44:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 5:14:11 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/19/2012 1:55:55 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: We are Good by nature, we make mistakes but we can be Good. The Bible tells you that you are weak and Bad. It puts us down to make us feel worthless. Its oppression. We are Good!


That is laughable....So I guess war, famine, murder, rape and general hate is good, Sure. You havent studied man's history then.

I think you'll find allot to disagree with in the OP if you care to take a stab.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2012 4:48:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Bump...
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 1:18:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Burmp.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 1:24:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 1:55:55 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: We are Good by nature, we make mistakes but we can be Good. The Bible tells you that you are weak and Bad. It puts us down to make us feel worthless. Its oppression. We are Good!

What about the part that says we are beautifully and wonderfully made? What about the part where almighty God sends his own perfect son to die on the cross to take the punishment for our sins?
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 1:35:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 1:55:55 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: We are Good by nature, we make mistakes but we can be Good. The Bible tells you that you are weak and Bad. It puts us down to make us feel worthless. Its oppression. We are Good!


Genesis Chapter 1:31 "And God saw everything he had made and behold, it was very good!"

The only thing said to be "not good" was for man to be alone.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 1:37:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can one single person actually respond to the point of the thread please??
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 1:41:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 1:37:12 PM, phantom wrote:
Can one single person actually respond to the point of the thread please??

It assumes Calvanism so I would say get Paradox to reply. I'm not a 5 point Calvanist really so I don't agree with some of the premises in your argument.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 1:42:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 1:41:54 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:37:12 PM, phantom wrote:
Can one single person actually respond to the point of the thread please??

It assumes Calvanism so I would say get Paradox to reply. I'm not a 5 point Calvanist really so I don't agree with some of the premises in your argument.

Or genesis creation is a 5 point calvanist I believe
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 1:42:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think that theists would argue that God is the ethical exemplar so he does not conform to morality, morality IS his nature, whatever that nature may be. If he is not understanding, then understanding must not be a virtue.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 1:50:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 1:41:54 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:37:12 PM, phantom wrote:
Can one single person actually respond to the point of the thread please??

It assumes Calvanism so I would say get Paradox to reply. I'm not a 5 point Calvanist really so I don't agree with some of the premises in your argument.

It doesn't assume Calvanism. I wouldn't spend that much time refuting such a nonsensical doctrine.

What do you disagree with?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 1:52:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Agreed all the way through. God should undersand that we had no choice not to sin (It's Eve's fault) so we shouldn't be held responsible.

Inb4 who are you to judge God, he's perfect.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 2:15:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 1:37:12 PM, phantom wrote:
Can one single person actually respond to the point of the thread please??
Sorry!

I would say YHVH.

"The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to those, You want to know my name? I am called according to my actions. When I judge the creatures I am Elohim, and when I have mercy with My world, I am named YHVH" (Ex R. 3:6).

So perfect morality is one of Gods several actions and qualities. The others include perfect; justice, mercy, wisdom, understanding, love, intelligence and power.

God is a courteous God and hides His perfection so that we may learn to perfect.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 2:18:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 1:42:56 PM, 000ike wrote:
I think that theists would argue that God is the ethical exemplar so he does not conform to morality, morality IS his nature, whatever that nature may be. If he is not understanding, then understanding must not be a virtue.

What would you say if I told you the "Y" in the Holy Name is perfect Morality and just like you say, it is part of God unfolding His basic natures to give pattern and directionality to all creation therein.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 2:35:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 1:50:47 PM, phantom wrote:

It doesn't assume Calvanism. I wouldn't spend that much time refuting such a nonsensical doctrine.


My apologies I must have just misunderstood some of it.

What do you disagree with?

I believe we inherit the consequences of Adam and Eve sinning, not the guilt. However, even putting that aside, I still have a few issues with it. God says for the wages of sin is death. Even if we sin because it is due to our nature the result should still be death. However, in the greatest act of love ever God himself had his son take the form of a man and be crucified on the cross for the atonement of sin. God provides a way out for everyone who chooses.

Again it is kind of hard for me to say exactly because in my reading of the OP it seemed to assume Calvanism so I am doing my best to explain my thoughts while properly addressing what you want to know.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 2:38:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 2:35:34 PM, stubs wrote:
I believe we inherit the consequences of Adam and Eve sinning, not the guilt.

Perhaps it is just genetic and it comes with the body...not the soul....we are not born sinners, we are born innocent.

As God new the prophet Jeremiah before the womb...so to did He know and form all of us before even the womb of the universe.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 2:40:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 1:50:47 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:41:54 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:37:12 PM, phantom wrote:
Can one single person actually respond to the point of the thread please??

It assumes Calvanism so I would say get Paradox to reply. I'm not a 5 point Calvanist really so I don't agree with some of the premises in your argument.

It doesn't assume Calvanism. I wouldn't spend that much time refuting such a nonsensical doctrine.

What do you disagree with?

Just looked up Calvinism and completely agree with you
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 2:45:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 2:40:16 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:50:47 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:41:54 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:37:12 PM, phantom wrote:
Can one single person actually respond to the point of the thread please??

It assumes Calvanism so I would say get Paradox to reply. I'm not a 5 point Calvanist really so I don't agree with some of the premises in your argument.

It doesn't assume Calvanism. I wouldn't spend that much time refuting such a nonsensical doctrine.

What do you disagree with?

Just looked up Calvinism and completely agree with you

What part of calvansim do you disagree with?
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 3:07:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 2:15:50 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:37:12 PM, phantom wrote:
Can one single person actually respond to the point of the thread please??
Sorry!

I would say YHVH.

"The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to those, You want to know my name? I am called according to my actions. When I judge the creatures I am Elohim, and when I have mercy with My world, I am named YHVH" (Ex R. 3:6).

So perfect morality is one of Gods several actions and qualities. The others include perfect; justice, mercy, wisdom, understanding, love, intelligence and power.

Justice and mercy are entirely refuted by my post. I demonstrated the injustice of the Christian God. He sets the standards according to his infinitely superior moral perfection whereas if he was really just and merciful he would realize that sin is inescapable for us. As for understanding, that ties right into moral perfection. It was the point of this thread. I don't see how you've refuted it.

God is a courteous God and hides His perfection so that we may learn to perfect.

So we're supposed to be morally perfect like God. We're supposed to look to him to see what moral perfection is but he hides his moral perfection causing us to not know what it is??
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 3:19:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 2:35:34 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:50:47 PM, phantom wrote:

It doesn't assume Calvanism. I wouldn't spend that much time refuting such a nonsensical doctrine.


My apologies I must have just misunderstood some of it.

No problems.

What do you disagree with?

I believe we inherit the consequences of Adam and Eve sinning, not the guilt. However, even putting that aside, I still have a few issues with it.

You mean we're sinful because of Adam and Eve. How can God judge our sin when it's not our fault but the first human beings?

God says for the wages of sin is death. Even if we sin because it is due to our nature the result should still be death.

But death/hell is punishment. A necessary prerequisite of moral punishment is moral accountability. If I sin because it's in my nature, then I sin because I must sin and can do nothing else. If I have no choice but to sin, I cannot be morally accountable for that sin. I therefore cannot deserve the punishment God sets. God sets the standards according to his own moral perfection not taking into account we cannot possibly meet those standards. That is why he fails in possessing moral understanding.

However, in the greatest act of love ever God himself had his son take the form of a man and be crucified on the cross for the atonement of sin. God provides a way out for everyone who chooses.

I can't choose Christ if I have no choice but to lack belief in Christianity. It seems the choice would only exist for those who believed the Christian God was real.


Again it is kind of hard for me to say exactly because in my reading of the OP it seemed to assume Calvanism so I am doing my best to explain my thoughts while properly addressing what you want to know.

I'm just wandering. What parts seemed Calvinistic?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Aaronroy
Posts: 749
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 3:23:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 5:14:11 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/19/2012 1:55:55 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: We are Good by nature, we make mistakes but we can be Good. The Bible tells you that you are weak and Bad. It puts us down to make us feel worthless. Its oppression. We are Good!


That is laughable....So I guess war, famine, murder, rape and general hate is good, Sure. You havent studied man's history then.

You'll see that the majority of the human species' most unpleasant spots in history consist of ethnic conflicts over the slightest of cultural inclinations and ideologies, religion being a noticeable cause.

Human beings are genetically disposed to be inherently good to each other. The evolutionary process is giving some key answers as to WHY there are fewer wars and fewer conflicts as time goes on. Some studies show that the frontal lobe of humans are systematically getting larger as generations go by; along with that, we are noticing higher levels of serotonin.
turn down for h'what
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 3:27:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 2:45:06 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/16/2012 2:40:16 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
Just looked up Calvinism and completely agree with you

What part of calvansim do you disagree with?

Contention of Total depravity: We are made in the image of God and known by God before we enter the womb. We are inclined to respond to love and respect our environment and grow as seeds of the God Tree. The world (society) is however in error and as an innocent we react to trauma to insulate ourselves from it. And thus block our own light from God. So turn around we must and can for we are all children of the Most High and greatly loved.

Contention with unconditional election: God is all merciful and all powerful, everyone is saved. But it may not be a pleasant experience. See 1 Corithians 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person"s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved"even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Contention with limited atonement: Revelation 3:21 (Jesus speaking) Those of you who conquer will sit with me on my throne as I have conquered and now sit with my Father on His Throne. And 1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Contention with Irresistible Grace: No contention. God calls all beings irresistibly.

Contention with preservation of the Saints: Half contention. All men are saved. Some to everlasting conscious life, some repeat the course and be born again through the veil of forgetfulness as God forgives our errors of being, and makes us a renewed being. "Hell" is the burning off of static and negative being formation as personality, the soul is saved. Here spoken of by King David in Psalms 139:7-8

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the hell, you are there.

God is good and we are an expression of God's nature. We have the full capacity for goodness, many already are in their hearts and minds...the last step is for us all to be good in action. As we effort and strive in the proper direction, our loving Father/Mother God propels and guides us. Why Father/Mother..."In image of God He created them, Male and Female He created them" So the image of God is male and female....the Nature of God is as Father (Creator) of all things.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 3:29:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 3:23:30 PM, Aaronroy wrote:
You'll see that the majority of the human species' most unpleasant spots in history consist of ethnic conflicts over the slightest of cultural inclinations and ideologies, religion being a noticeable cause.

Human beings are genetically disposed to be inherently good to each other. The evolutionary process is giving some key answers as to WHY there are fewer wars and fewer conflicts as time goes on. Some studies show that the frontal lobe of humans are systematically getting larger as generations go by; along with that, we are noticing higher levels of serotonin.

Yes...because we are a process of God expressing Man in process...
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 3:43:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 3:07:52 PM, phantom wrote:
Justice and mercy are entirely refuted by my post. I demonstrated the injustice of the Christian God. He sets the standards according to his infinitely superior moral perfection whereas if he was really just and merciful he would realize that sin is inescapable for us. As for understanding, that ties right into moral perfection. It was the point of this thread. I don't see how you've refuted it.

God is a courteous God and hides His perfection so that we may learn to perfect.

So we're supposed to be morally perfect like God. We're supposed to look to him to see what moral perfection is but he hides his moral perfection causing us to not know what it is??

Refuted by your assumptions of how you (and many people) conceive God to be, not what the bible nor the Islamic 99 Names of God say about the Nature of the One True Living God. Again it is to come to relationship with Reality...not ideation of mans making.

Morality can be defined by integrity and is a vertical channel of Being.."Good" and "Bad" can be defined as up and down. And we have the ability to learn remember and tn demonstrate that with free will and that will be God's crowning achievement in and as Man.

If you are light within Light...your integrity(morality) is "judged" on your ability to braid the seven colors of your sensory organs back into a harmonic whole and thus into pure white/golden(authentic) light. It's simply resonant harmonics...or lack thereof.

God as perfect morality is traveling at the speed and harmony of a white light laser beam. And if you were to be exposed directly and immediately to it, there would be a matter/antimatter annihilation and only the God spark of your golden soul would remain. Heaven/Hell (based on if the soul loves or hates) is as a drawn out and mitigated process of that exposure so that memory might be retained in the soul and growth in the next life possible.

God's creation and harmony and "body" surrounds us inside and out and few see the Kingdom....
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 3:51:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 3:19:09 PM, phantom wrote:

But death/hell is punishment. A necessary prerequisite of moral punishment is moral accountability. If I sin because it's in my nature, then I sin because I must sin and can do nothing else. If I have no choice but to sin, I cannot be morally accountable for that sin. I therefore cannot deserve the punishment God sets. God sets the standards according to his own moral perfection not taking into account we cannot possibly meet those standards. That is why he fails in possessing moral understanding.

I can't choose Christ if I have no choice but to lack belief in Christianity. It seems the choice would only exist for those who believed the Christian God was real.

"If sin is my nature"......mighty big assumption there...

Perhaps what you have been told of the "christian" God is not true? Perhaps their understanding of The One True Living God is incomplete and very fresh?

Remember that Christianity is based on Judaism based on a 10,000 + year old Original Story....Look at the comparison between Genesis and the Sumerian Enuma Elish.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 3:58:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 1:11:56 PM, phantom wrote:
When we have a lot of patience, we look down on those with impatience. So is that an adequate analogy to why God punishes us so harshly?

I'd say no. Firstly, the problem from the patient looking down on the impatient is because they are limited by perspective and ignorance of being like other people: "to understand all is to forgive all" is the simplest solution.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2012 3:59:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 2:45:06 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/16/2012 2:40:16 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:50:47 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:41:54 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/16/2012 1:37:12 PM, phantom wrote:
Can one single person actually respond to the point of the thread please??

It assumes Calvanism so I would say get Paradox to reply. I'm not a 5 point Calvanist really so I don't agree with some of the premises in your argument.

It doesn't assume Calvanism. I wouldn't spend that much time refuting such a nonsensical doctrine.

What do you disagree with?

Just looked up Calvinism and completely agree with you

What part of calvansim do you disagree with?

You didn't ask me but limited atonement is probably my biggest disagreement with calvinsim.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!