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God & Hell

Illegalcombatant
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8/19/2012 10:46:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have an issue and a discrepancy with God and Hell I would like to point out or to be more technically precise peoples concept of God.

On many other issues, in order to rationalize God with what ever objection is raised some one can retort, he is God, he knows all, he is all powerful, he can do what he wants, his ways are above our ways etc etc.

Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense.

I can't help but think, excuse me ? God has too ? Suddenly God is confined into a box without options ? I can't help think that their is a bit of contrivance going on here.

If you insist that their is a God who can allow children to experience immense suffering of a natural evil yet still be all knowing, all powerful, benevolent, just, holy, concerned with humans affairs etc etc then please explain how this same latitude given to God by you doesn't extend to the after life, where suddenly this same God has no other options than to allow people to suffer in hell fire that will never comes to an end, (again in the most literal sense)
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/19/2012 10:51:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can we all just conclude that the Christian God is false and call it a day? I mean,..at this point the back and forth is fruitless.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/19/2012 11:29:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 10:51:11 PM, 000ike wrote:
Can we all just conclude that the Christian God is false and call it a day? I mean,..at this point the back and forth is fruitless.

Why not just go to an atheist-only website where everyone just celebrates their intellectual superiority and gives each other internet hugs?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/19/2012 11:45:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 11:29:20 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 8/19/2012 10:51:11 PM, 000ike wrote:
Can we all just conclude that the Christian God is false and call it a day? I mean,..at this point the back and forth is fruitless.

Why not just go to an atheist-only website where everyone just celebrates their intellectual superiority and gives each other internet hugs?

Lol, word.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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8/20/2012 12:27:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 10:46:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I have an issue and a discrepancy with God and Hell I would like to point out or to be more technically precise peoples concept of God.

On many other issues, in order to rationalize God with what ever objection is raised some one can retort, he is God, he knows all, he is all powerful, he can do what he wants, his ways are above our ways etc etc.

Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense.

I can't help but think, excuse me ? God has too ? Suddenly God is confined into a box without options ? I can't help think that their is a bit of contrivance going on here.

If you insist that their is a God who can allow children to experience immense suffering of a natural evil yet still be all knowing, all powerful, benevolent, just, holy, concerned with humans affairs etc etc then please explain how this same latitude given to God by you doesn't extend to the after life, where suddenly this same God has no other options than to allow people to suffer in hell fire that will never comes to an end, (again in the most literal sense)

Illegalcombatant You are soo wrong... God is NOT in a box!!
FIRST: THINK.. God himself SUFFERED!!!! He suffered and died on a cross just for you!!! He loves you!
God proves his KINGDOM is not here, all suffer on earth until they enter Jesus' kingdom, all will suffer loss!

God is PERFECT!! If God was to judge wrong, if God was to allow someone into heaven who was with sin, he would NOT be a perfect Judge! If God was NOT perfect he would not be God!

Fact is.. It is each person who sends THEMSELVES to "the Lake of Fair and Satan!"
All men are made in the IMAGE of LOVE: "God is LOVE!"
Love is a CHOICE from the heart... LOVE must be given freely or it is NOT love!

Illegalcombatant THINK>> Use your noodle..
If God forced each person to Love then their love would NOT be true love! LOVE must be given freely or it is NOT love!
IF..
If God forced each person to LOVE then God would not be perfect.. God is Perfect LOVE! LOVE must be given freely or it is NOT love!

It is each man who CHOOSES NOT TO LOVE that does not enter heaven, it is MANS CHOICE that puts man into the "Lake of Fire" not God'!!!

Dogknox
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/20/2012 12:52:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 12:27:35 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 8/19/2012 10:46:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I have an issue and a discrepancy with God and Hell I would like to point out or to be more technically precise peoples concept of God.

On many other issues, in order to rationalize God with what ever objection is raised some one can retort, he is God, he knows all, he is all powerful, he can do what he wants, his ways are above our ways etc etc.

Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense.

I can't help but think, excuse me ? God has too ? Suddenly God is confined into a box without options ? I can't help think that their is a bit of contrivance going on here.

If you insist that their is a God who can allow children to experience immense suffering of a natural evil yet still be all knowing, all powerful, benevolent, just, holy, concerned with humans affairs etc etc then please explain how this same latitude given to God by you doesn't extend to the after life, where suddenly this same God has no other options than to allow people to suffer in hell fire that will never comes to an end, (again in the most literal sense)

Illegalcombatant You are soo wrong... God is NOT in a box!!
FIRST: THINK.. God himself SUFFERED!!!! He suffered and died on a cross just for you!!! He loves you!
God proves his KINGDOM is not here, all suffer on earth until they enter Jesus' kingdom, all will suffer loss!

God is PERFECT!! If God was to judge wrong, if God was to allow someone into heaven who was with sin, he would NOT be a perfect Judge! If God was NOT perfect he would not be God!

Fact is.. It is each person who sends THEMSELVES to "the Lake of Fair and Satan!"
All men are made in the IMAGE of LOVE: "God is LOVE!"
Love is a CHOICE from the heart... LOVE must be given freely or it is NOT love!

Illegalcombatant THINK>> Use your noodle..
If God forced each person to Love then their love would NOT be true love! LOVE must be given freely or it is NOT love!
IF..
If God forced each person to LOVE then God would not be perfect.. God is Perfect LOVE! LOVE must be given freely or it is NOT love!

It is each man who CHOOSES NOT TO LOVE that does not enter heaven, it is MANS CHOICE that puts man into the "Lake of Fire" not God'!!!

Dogknox

Did you just use an exclamation point at the end of every single sentence in that post?
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/20/2012 12:54:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Dear Dog Knox, At no time in your post did you demonstrate that you took the time to understand what I saying.

Even though I made at least one objection very clear on the latitude given to God in so many area's and then how then the complete opposite is given to God when it comes to punishment in the after life (Typical evangelical christian concept of hell) you merely say some things about hell and God and think you have done good.

Well that ain't gonna cut it, and since I am of the view that in your own mind you have done some good here means I find you to be deluded, ignorant, uncritical, unreflective and so terrible annoying.

So on behalf of humanity, and on behalf of all on DDO who will have the displeasure of having to put up with you, please stop your pretentious repetition of religious doctrine and start thinking for yourself.

And welcome to DDO.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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8/20/2012 1:01:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Rusty good to meet you!!!
And....
And your question is???? ha-ha

Life is toooo short to be all the time serious!
Dogknox
baggins
Posts: 855
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8/20/2012 1:12:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 10:46:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I have an issue and a discrepancy with God and Hell I would like to point out or to be more technically precise peoples concept of God.

On many other issues, in order to rationalize God with what ever objection is raised some one can retort, he is God, he knows all, he is all powerful, he can do what he wants, his ways are above our ways etc etc.

Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense.

I can't help but think, excuse me ? God has too ? Suddenly God is confined into a box without options ? I can't help think that their is a bit of contrivance going on here.

This is a huge straw man. Definitely it is up to God to forgive, overlook, punish temporarily or to punish forever. If hell is eternal, it is a decision by God, over which God cannot be questioned.

If you insist that their is a God who can allow children to experience immense suffering of a natural evil yet still be all knowing, all powerful, benevolent, just, holy, concerned with humans affairs etc etc then please explain how this same latitude given to God by you doesn't extend to the after life, where suddenly this same God has no other options than to allow people to suffer in hell fire that will never comes to an end, (again in the most literal sense)

I will try to explain why eternal punishment is just and fair. God has sent us messengers to warn us about hell full of fire, in which the criminals have to live forever. These messengers were a mercy towards mankind. Yet the Kaffirs mock them and hinder the message. On the day of judgement, no one can say that they were not warned about it.

Believe me, it gives us no pleasure to inform people about the hell fire. And yet it is not possible for us to hide the important information either. We have no power to change people's faith and action. The least we can do is to convey the warning.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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8/20/2012 1:16:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 12:54:52 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Dear Dog Knox, At no time in your post did you demonstrate that you took the time to understand what I saying.

Even though I made at least one objection very clear on the latitude given to God in so many area's and then how then the complete opposite is given to God when it comes to punishment in the after life (Typical evangelical christian concept of hell) you merely say some things about hell and God and think you have done good.

Well that ain't gonna cut it, and since I am of the view that in your own mind you have done some good here means I find you to be deluded, ignorant, uncritical, unreflective and so terrible annoying.

So on behalf of humanity, and on behalf of all on DDO who will have the displeasure of having to put up with you, please stop your pretentious repetition of religious doctrine and start thinking for yourself.

And welcome to DDO.
Illegalcombatant Thank you for your post..
I reply: I post the scriptures.. I believe the scriptures!

For you to believe different then the scriptures tells me, you DO NOT THINK for yourself! It tells me, you believe man made TEACHING!! Teaching from teachers who reject the scriptures, teachers who TEACH you to also reject the scriptures!

SCRIPTURES...
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. "

Do you see it????
The Goats do NOT have LOVE all they have is Faith: Faith ALONE!
They go to ETERNAL HELL (eternal punishment)!

Illegalcombatant PROVING Hell is EVERLASTING!!!!!
I am Christian; Christians believe the scriptures!
........................................................
WEBSTER
Definition of ETERNAL: having infinite duration : everlasting <eternal damnation>
b : of or relating to eternity
c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? — Mark 10:17(Revised Standard Version)>
2 a : continued without intermission : perpetual
b : seemingly endless <eternal delays>
3 archaic : infernal <some eternal villain … devised this slander — Shakespeare>
4 : valid or existing at all times : timeless <eternal verities>
.........................................

Illegalcombatant You must reject the scriptures and the Dictionary and ALL LOGIC!!!!
Satan has been judged.. He will not be judged again!
All evil persons are consumed by Satan, they become ONE WITH Satan, their father! Satan is immortal all all "IN his children are judged to eternal damnation with him!
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/20/2012 1:28:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 1:01:12 AM, Dogknox wrote:
Rusty good to meet you!!!
And....
And your question is???? ha-ha

Life is toooo short to be all the time serious!
Dogknox

Nice to meet you too. I'll keep that in mind. :)
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/20/2012 1:33:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Dear Dog.........

Did I ask are there verses in the bible that can be put together that suggest or can be made compatible with a certain concept of hell ? I am pretty sure I didn't.

But when I do ask that question, I'll let you know ok.

Once again, thank you for not taking any time or effort to understand the objection I bought to the table. (Note this is sarcasm)
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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8/20/2012 1:36:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Illegal, you're presuming the nature of Hell to be a traditionalist one, which is quite the leap.

For instance, I support inclusivism as a model of entry to Heaven while believing Hell to be more along annihilationist lines. In particular I recently covered inclusivism vs. exclusivism in a debate with KRFournier http://www.debate.org... .

You're attacking a belief that's not necessary to subscribe to, although I do grant that many Christians (and believers of other religions) do hold to a traditionalist model. Your argument doesn't address non-traditionalist conceptions of Hell.

If you wish to draw up a target and strike it down, go ahead, but the challenge is in other targets.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/20/2012 1:42:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 1:36:37 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Illegal, you're presuming the nature of Hell to be a traditionalist one, which is quite the leap.

No I am not, nor am I assuming a non tradition concept of hell for this thread. I have clearly bought up the objection have I not ?

For instance, I support inclusivism as a model of entry to Heaven while believing Hell to be more along annihilationist lines. In particular I recently covered inclusivism vs. exclusivism in a debate with KRFournier http://www.debate.org... .

You're attacking a belief that's not necessary to subscribe to, although I do grant that many Christians (and believers of other religions) do hold to a traditionalist model. Your argument doesn't address non-traditionalist conceptions of Hell.

I never said or implied that my argument address non traditional concepts of hell.

If you wish to draw up a target and strike it down, go ahead, but the challenge is in other targets.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/20/2012 1:51:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 1:12:47 AM, baggins wrote:
At 8/19/2012 10:46:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I have an issue and a discrepancy with God and Hell I would like to point out or to be more technically precise peoples concept of God.

On many other issues, in order to rationalize God with what ever objection is raised some one can retort, he is God, he knows all, he is all powerful, he can do what he wants, his ways are above our ways etc etc.

Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense.

I can't help but think, excuse me ? God has too ? Suddenly God is confined into a box without options ? I can't help think that their is a bit of contrivance going on here.

This is a huge straw man. Definitely it is up to God to forgive, overlook, punish temporarily or to punish forever. If hell is eternal, it is a decision by God, over which God cannot be questioned.

If your saying I am committing a strawman then no. I could grant you everything you said is true and my objection still stands.

If you insist that their is a God who can allow children to experience immense suffering of a natural evil yet still be all knowing, all powerful, benevolent, just, holy, concerned with humans affairs etc etc then please explain how this same latitude given to God by you doesn't extend to the after life, where suddenly this same God has no other options than to allow people to suffer in hell fire that will never comes to an end, (again in the most literal sense)

I will try to explain why eternal punishment is just and fair. God has sent us messengers to warn us about hell full of fire, in which the criminals have to live forever. These messengers were a mercy towards mankind. Yet the Kaffirs mock them and hinder the message. On the day of judgement, no one can say that they were not warned about it.

Even if you said is true, its doesn't justify the concept of hell I alluded too, especially in light of the latitude of choice given to God in other area's.


Believe me, it gives us no pleasure to inform people about the hell fire. And yet it is not possible for us to hide the important information either. We have no power to change people's faith and action. The least we can do is to convey the warning.

I would make the point something something or burn in hell is open to the charge of appeal to fear. Also anyone can claim something something or burn in hell which is why the claim on its own has no merit.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Logic_on_rails
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8/20/2012 1:54:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 1:42:29 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/20/2012 1:36:37 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Illegal, you're presuming the nature of Hell to be a traditionalist one, which is quite the leap.

No I am not, nor am I assuming a non tradition concept of hell for this thread. I have clearly bought up the objection have I not ?

You said in your OP:

"Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course [emphasis mine]. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense."

That is the traditional conception of Hell. Annihilationism doesn't involve suffering, nor eternal torment.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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8/20/2012 2:07:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 10:51:11 PM, 000ike wrote:
Can we all just conclude that the Christian God is false and call it a day? I mean,..at this point the back and forth is fruitless.

While the Christian God is one of the least plausible, you need to demonstrate why it is illogical in a cogent, well-presented argument to convince the deluded. Teaching critical thinking, analytic thinking, and to accept claims in accordance with strong evidence and argument is another route.
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Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/20/2012 2:09:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 1:54:45 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 8/20/2012 1:42:29 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/20/2012 1:36:37 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Illegal, you're presuming the nature of Hell to be a traditionalist one, which is quite the leap.

No I am not, nor am I assuming a non tradition concept of hell for this thread. I have clearly bought up the objection have I not ?

You said in your OP:

"Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course [emphasis mine]. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense."

That is the traditional conception of Hell. Annihilationism doesn't involve suffering, nor eternal torment.

What I mean't was is that I myself am not assuming the trad concept of hell. My argument/invitation for justification is against those who do, who also give God such latitude in other area's, and then restrict God to having no choice in regards to the existence of the traditional hell.

Clear now ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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8/20/2012 2:23:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
My apologies Illegal. I did not grasp the full import of what you were saying.

There are perhaps instances where people can 'forget' or attempt to rationalise certain positions that are contrary to God's nature, perhaps on the grounds of inerrancy of scripture for instance. My resolution to this is, as you are arguing for, that any act God commits ought to go in accordance with his nature, and to believe otherwise is folly. In this sense, God's benevolence ought to be preferred when in conflict with scripture, hence errancy.

I do grant that you are correct about the problems of how some people view God, but that's not to say the argument is a problem for many.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/20/2012 4:57:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 11:29:20 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 8/19/2012 10:51:11 PM, 000ike wrote:
Can we all just conclude that the Christian God is false and call it a day? I mean,..at this point the back and forth is fruitless.

Why not just go to an atheist-only website where everyone just celebrates their intellectual superiority and gives each other internet hugs?

Here we go: http://www.reddit.com...
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/20/2012 6:50:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You deserve hell IF..you reject God's Law and Word(which is the same). If you dont think so...it doesnt matter what you think. To reject God's law is to reject God and therefore are deserving of hell. This includes you if you like it or not, if you believe it or not.
TheAsylum
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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8/20/2012 8:03:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 10:51:11 PM, 000ike wrote:
Can we all just conclude that the Christian God is false and call it a day? I mean,..at this point the back and forth is fruitless.

~9000 years of back and forth... 000ike wants to call it a day- I say we give it to him already! ;-)

The Christian God is far far from being disconfirmed. You first have to know WHAT you're attempting to disconfirm. And frankly, there's worse theology going around in here than I've ever seen. So the god you're used to on the internet, sure yeah- let's call it a day. But for the God I believe in, see my theodicy on my last debate.
Reason_Alliance
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8/20/2012 8:04:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 12:27:35 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 8/19/2012 10:46:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I have an issue and a discrepancy with God and Hell I would like to point out or to be more technically precise peoples concept of God.

On many other issues, in order to rationalize God with what ever objection is raised some one can retort, he is God, he knows all, he is all powerful, he can do what he wants, his ways are above our ways etc etc.

Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense.

I can't help but think, excuse me ? God has too ? Suddenly God is confined into a box without options ? I can't help think that their is a bit of contrivance going on here.

If you insist that their is a God who can allow children to experience immense suffering of a natural evil yet still be all knowing, all powerful, benevolent, just, holy, concerned with humans affairs etc etc then please explain how this same latitude given to God by you doesn't extend to the after life, where suddenly this same God has no other options than to allow people to suffer in hell fire that will never comes to an end, (again in the most literal sense)

Illegalcombatant You are soo wrong... God is NOT in a box!!
FIRST: THINK.. God himself SUFFERED!!!! He suffered and died on a cross just for you!!! He loves you!
God proves his KINGDOM is not here, all suffer on earth until they enter Jesus' kingdom, all will suffer loss!

God is PERFECT!! If God was to judge wrong, if God was to allow someone into heaven who was with sin, he would NOT be a perfect Judge! If God was NOT perfect he would not be God!

Fact is.. It is each person who sends THEMSELVES to "the Lake of Fair and Satan!"
All men are made in the IMAGE of LOVE: "God is LOVE!"
Love is a CHOICE from the heart... LOVE must be given freely or it is NOT love!

Illegalcombatant THINK>> Use your noodle..
If God forced each person to Love then their love would NOT be true love! LOVE must be given freely or it is NOT love!
IF..
If God forced each person to LOVE then God would not be perfect.. God is Perfect LOVE! LOVE must be given freely or it is NOT love!

It is each man who CHOOSES NOT TO LOVE that does not enter heaven, it is MANS CHOICE that puts man into the "Lake of Fire" not God'!!!

Dogknox

How emotional.
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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8/20/2012 8:23:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 10:46:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I have an issue and a discrepancy with God and Hell I would like to point out or to be more technically precise peoples concept of God.

On many other issues, in order to rationalize God with what ever objection is raised some one can retort, he is God, he knows all, he is all powerful, he can do what he wants, his ways are above our ways etc etc.

Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense.

I can't help but think, excuse me ? God has too ? Suddenly God is confined into a box without options ? I can't help think that their is a bit of contrivance going on here.

The simplisctic theology says 'yo, eh guys, God can do whatever' whereas the learned theology says 'God acts according to his nature, to ask if he could do so otherwise would be a meaningless question.'

When we turn to the issue of eternal seperation from God & his Good creation, we see part of the nature of God, namely not only his respect of free decisions, but also his justice. God cannot logically allow someone who made an unjust self-forming choice in the pursuit of happiness to experience the complete happiness of someone who made a just-seeking self-forming choice. From this we also see that a person literally formed themselves as unjust, why would an unjust person want to experience that which is just? Hence ultimately Hell isn't barred shut from the outside by God, but from the inside by those who are diametrically opposed to a commitment based life, an other-oriented based life, and a life in which complete happiness can justly be achieved.

Hell, then, is a life which entails the law of diminishing returns when it comes to the pursuit of happiness, because it's satisfaction-based and self-oriented (happiness achieved at the expense of others). But Heaven, entails the law of accelerated returns (everyone is other-oriented, and loves others infinitely because they recieve infinite love from God). I've no doubt levels of happiness is experienced in Hell, at first, and perhaps by those more powerful, etc.

Your last point went on the the problem of evil, join the discussion:

http://www.debate.org...
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/20/2012 8:24:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
~9000 years of back and forth... 000ike wants to call it a day- I say we give it to him already! ;-)
And frankly, there's worse theology going around in here than I've ever seen.

They---atheist---should call it a day. Im glad that Im not the only one who thinks the theology here is lacking.
TheAsylum
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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8/20/2012 8:54:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 8:24:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
~9000 years of back and forth... 000ike wants to call it a day- I say we give it to him already! ;-)
And frankly, there's worse theology going around in here than I've ever seen.

They---atheist---should call it a day. Im glad that Im not the only one who thinks the theology here is lacking.

It's significantly lacking... it's comparable to pre-school sunday school lessons. And sadly I think it's the fault of the church for this, when folks needed doctrine, they got stories.
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 8:57:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 8:54:32 AM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 8/20/2012 8:24:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
~9000 years of back and forth... 000ike wants to call it a day- I say we give it to him already! ;-)
And frankly, there's worse theology going around in here than I've ever seen.

They---atheist---should call it a day. Im glad that Im not the only one who thinks the theology here is lacking.

It's significantly lacking... it's comparable to pre-school sunday school lessons. And sadly I think it's the fault of the church for this, when folks needed doctrine, they got stories.

You - Me. Eye to Eye
TheAsylum
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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8/20/2012 9:02:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 8:23:48 AM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 8/19/2012 10:46:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I have an issue and a discrepancy with God and Hell I would like to point out or to be more technically precise peoples concept of God.

On many other issues, in order to rationalize God with what ever objection is raised some one can retort, he is God, he knows all, he is all powerful, he can do what he wants, his ways are above our ways etc etc.

Some after making these types of claims over and over again, on so many different topics then do about face when it comes to Hell. Suddenly it is now claimed God MUST put some one into hell, a never ending burning in fire hell of course. God can't even choose to put some one into hell for a finite amount of time, NO, not even God can do that, it must be a never ending torment, in the most literal sense.

I can't help but think, excuse me ? God has too ? Suddenly God is confined into a box without options ? I can't help think that their is a bit of contrivance going on here.

The simplisctic theology says 'yo, eh guys, God can do whatever' whereas the learned theology says 'God acts according to his nature, to ask if he could do so otherwise would be a meaningless question.'

When we turn to the issue of eternal seperation from God & his Good creation, we see part of the nature of God, namely not only his respect of free decisions, but also his justice. God cannot logically allow someone who made an unjust self-forming choice in the pursuit of happiness to experience the complete happiness of someone who made a just-seeking self-forming choice. From this we also see that a person literally formed themselves as unjust, why would an unjust person want to experience that which is just? Hence ultimately Hell isn't barred shut from the outside by God, but from the inside by those who are diametrically opposed to a commitment based life, an other-oriented based life, and a life in which complete happiness can justly be achieved.

Hell, then, is a life which entails the law of diminishing returns when it comes to the pursuit of happiness, because it's satisfaction-based and self-oriented (happiness achieved at the expense of others). But Heaven, entails the law of accelerated returns (everyone is other-oriented, and loves others infinitely because they recieve infinite love from God). I've no doubt levels of happiness is experienced in Hell, at first, and perhaps by those more powerful, etc.

Your last point went on the the problem of evil, join the discussion:

http://www.debate.org...

If you're still planning to debate PCP on Hell, I'll not belabor the point to much, but suffice to say a "self-forming choice" of Hell is totally incoherent. Either one has to be completely irrational (favouring the worst possible world for the greatest conceivable good), or woefully misinformed about the implications or nature of their choice. Either way,"freely choosing" Hell just isn't credible.
Reason_Alliance
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8/20/2012 9:06:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
UA, a person who's either misinformed or irrational is not an incoherent idea. But that's a bifurcation anyway: suppose that the purpose of man is happiness sought on our own terms. Even though God would desire that his and our terms match.
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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8/20/2012 9:08:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:06:21 AM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
UA, a person who's either misinformed or irrational is not an incoherent idea. But that's a bifurcation anyway: suppose that the purpose of man is happiness sought on our own terms. Even though God would desire that his and our terms match.

That would be you of course. Irrational thinker is more like it. You are a mortal
being who could not possibly fathom what it would be like to control a race
of people let alone create one. Who are you to dictate anyone with your
warped sense of reality.