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Why Bother, For either side of the track?

ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 8:39:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I ask both atheist and theist, whats the point in either proving God exist or proving He doesnt? Neither can, therefore neither can win. This is no longer a debate but simply a flame war between both parties.
I am Christian and saved by the blood of Christ. I know God and have a exstinsive relationship with him. I have myself flamed debates (A.K.A arguing) for the existance of God to the point of becoming beneath myself to insult peoples intelligence. This is not Christian. I will no longer debate such things because such things are not debatable. Either you know God exist by exsperience(no one can deny you that) or you have no good reason to believe(no one can deny you that freedom). Both sides show lack of respect and freedom for each other. Regardless if you believe or not these acts are unjustifiable.
There is unending reasons to believe in God for the believer.
There is no reason to believe for the unbeliever.
Both sides should simply except this.
For theist I understand our work is to witness but to witness one must allow you too. If someone doesnt want to allow that, then you can never change that. Only God himself can burden them to realize. Therefore the argument is fruitless.
We should all grow up(including myself) and allow people to be who they want to be and believe what they want to believe.
TheAsylum
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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8/20/2012 9:07:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 8:39:10 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
I ask both atheist and theist, whats the point in either proving God exist or proving He doesnt? Neither can, therefore neither can win. This is no longer a debate but simply a flame war between both parties.
I am Christian and saved by the blood of Christ. I know God and have a exstinsive relationship with him. I have myself flamed debates (A.K.A arguing) for the existance of God to the point of becoming beneath myself to insult peoples intelligence. This is not Christian. I will no longer debate such things because such things are not debatable. Either you know God exist by exsperience(no one can deny you that) or you have no good reason to believe(no one can deny you that freedom). Both sides show lack of respect and freedom for each other. Regardless if you believe or not these acts are unjustifiable.
There is unending reasons to believe in God for the believer.
There is no reason to believe for the unbeliever.
Both sides should simply except this.
For theist I understand our work is to witness but to witness one must allow you too. If someone doesnt want to allow that, then you can never change that. Only God himself can burden them to realize. Therefore the argument is fruitless.
We should all grow up(including myself) and allow people to be who they want to be and believe what they want to believe.

I think this is the first thing that you have posted that I have ever agreed with.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,752
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8/20/2012 9:19:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 8:39:10 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
I ask both atheist and theist, whats the point in either proving God exist or proving He doesnt? Neither can, therefore neither can win. This is no longer a debate but simply a flame war between both parties.
I am Christian and saved by the blood of Christ. I know God and have a exstinsive relationship with him. I have myself flamed debates (A.K.A arguing) for the existance of God to the point of becoming beneath myself to insult peoples intelligence. This is not Christian. I will no longer debate such things because such things are not debatable. Either you know God exist by exsperience(no one can deny you that) or you have no good reason to believe(no one can deny you that freedom). Both sides show lack of respect and freedom for each other. Regardless if you believe or not these acts are unjustifiable.
There is unending reasons to believe in God for the believer.
There is no reason to believe for the unbeliever.
Both sides should simply except this.
For theist I understand our work is to witness but to witness one must allow you too. If someone doesnt want to allow that, then you can never change that. Only God himself can burden them to realize. Therefore the argument is fruitless.
We should all grow up(including myself) and allow people to be who they want to be and believe what they want to believe.

Debating is good because it helps you form a better opinion. Unless you hear the best arguments from each side, you can't form an opinion with any certainty. If one only hears arguments from one side, they cannot claim to know "the truth".

It is also good to find out "why" you believe things. If someone believes something they should be able to explain their point of view and answer objections. Sharing opinions is good.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/20/2012 9:27:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:19:54 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 8/20/2012 8:39:10 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
I ask both atheist and theist, whats the point in either proving God exist or proving He doesnt? Neither can, therefore neither can win. This is no longer a debate but simply a flame war between both parties.
I am Christian and saved by the blood of Christ. I know God and have a exstinsive relationship with him. I have myself flamed debates (A.K.A arguing) for the existance of God to the point of becoming beneath myself to insult peoples intelligence. This is not Christian. I will no longer debate such things because such things are not debatable. Either you know God exist by exsperience(no one can deny you that) or you have no good reason to believe(no one can deny you that freedom). Both sides show lack of respect and freedom for each other. Regardless if you believe or not these acts are unjustifiable.
There is unending reasons to believe in God for the believer.
There is no reason to believe for the unbeliever.
Both sides should simply except this.
For theist I understand our work is to witness but to witness one must allow you too. If someone doesnt want to allow that, then you can never change that. Only God himself can burden them to realize. Therefore the argument is fruitless.
We should all grow up(including myself) and allow people to be who they want to be and believe what they want to believe.

Debating is good because it helps you form a better opinion. Unless you hear the best arguments from each side, you can't form an opinion with any certainty. If one only hears arguments from one side, they cannot claim to know "the truth".

It is also good to find out "why" you believe things. If someone believes something they should be able to explain their point of view and answer objections. Sharing opinions is good.

You missed the specific debate topic and the end results of it. I believe because I have my own reasons and Im assuming you do too. I dont need to debate it, nor need anyones point of view against it. I know my belief for certainty. See thats the problem you are willing to flip flop, Im not and wont. You also mistake that truth is a debatable topic, the truth isnt debatable, what think it is...is.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/20/2012 9:37:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:33:51 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Beliefs evolve through discussion.

My belief evolved through the Holy Bible and prayer....IDK....I think the Bible speaks for itself and therefore is not a discussion. If you dont believe in the Bible nor the God of it then anything is debatable.
TheAsylum
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 9:42:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

I believe in this deity and you do not but you are going to suggest what He is.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 9:43:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

This is ignorance and ego at its finest.
TheAsylum
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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8/20/2012 9:43:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

LOL Deism is incoherent.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

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PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/20/2012 9:44:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:42:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

I believe in this deity and you do not but you are going to suggest what He is.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA:

He's saying based on the descriptions of the bible.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 9:46:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:44:22 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:42:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

I believe in this deity and you do not but you are going to suggest what He is.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA:

He's saying based on the descriptions of the bible.

You obviously didnt read were your understanding of the Bible and the God within is for only the faithful and believer. Even Satan believes.
TheAsylum
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/20/2012 9:53:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:46:32 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:44:22 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:42:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

I believe in this deity and you do not but you are going to suggest what He is.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA:

He's saying based on the descriptions of the bible.

You obviously didnt read were your understanding of the Bible and the God within is for only the faithful and believer. Even Satan believes.:

According to the bible. Therein lies the problem. It's circular.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 9:57:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:53:00 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:46:32 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:44:22 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:42:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

I believe in this deity and you do not but you are going to suggest what He is.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA:

He's saying based on the descriptions of the bible.

You obviously didnt read were your understanding of the Bible and the God within is for only the faithful and believer. Even Satan believes.:

According to the bible. Therein lies the problem. It's circular.

That is off topic....The point was someone is incapable of relating intelligently as a axiom to something they refuse nor believe.
TheAsylum
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/20/2012 9:59:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:42:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

I believe in this deity and you do not but you are going to suggest what He is.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Alright then, so I'm guessing you don't believe in miracles or prayer?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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8/20/2012 10:06:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If God exists, we have chance for an authentic existence. If God doesn't exist, we've no chance whatever for an authentic existence.
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 10:22:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:59:41 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:42:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

I believe in this deity and you do not but you are going to suggest what He is.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Alright then, so I'm guessing you don't believe in miracles or prayer?

No, I do. But wouldnt you say that only those who have belief can observe such things? This in the light that we are no longer in the prophetic age but the age of faith alone.
TheAsylum
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/20/2012 10:46:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
No, I do. But wouldnt you say that only those who have belief can observe such things? This in the light that we are no longer in the prophetic age but the age of faith alone.:

'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." -- Acts 2:17
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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8/20/2012 10:48:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 10:06:22 AM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
If God exists, we have chance for an authentic existence. If God doesn't exist, we've no chance whatever for an authentic existence.

I'm not sure that this is a convincing argument for Atheists, although I do agree. Atheists usually believe that our lives and deeds don't matter anyways (or they derive them from subjective valuation as I did when I was an Atheist).
Reason_Alliance
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8/20/2012 10:54:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 10:48:19 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/20/2012 10:06:22 AM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
If God exists, we have chance for an authentic existence. If God doesn't exist, we've no chance whatever for an authentic existence.

I'm not sure that this is a convincing argument for Atheists, although I do agree. Atheists usually believe that our lives and deeds don't matter anyways (or they derive them from subjective valuation as I did when I was an Atheist).

It's what B. Russell argued among others. So it's not really an argument for the existence of God, but at most would show an existential preference for theism.. and, if true, would seem to give God good grounds for seeing who should desire him on our own terms.

God is vulnerable too.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/20/2012 11:00:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:42:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

I believe in this deity and you do not but you are going to suggest what He is.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Wow, are you serious? Youre saying that believing in something makes you an automatic expert on it. That is blatantly false. There are many believers who believe in the Bible, yet many Atheists know the Bible better than the believer. How can you laugh, youre the one who made the error. You are false.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
twocupcakes
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8/20/2012 11:21:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago

You missed the specific debate topic and the end results of it. I believe because I have my own reasons and Im assuming you do too. I dont need to debate it, nor need anyones point of view against it. I know my belief for certainty. See thats the problem you are willing to flip flop, Im not and wont. You also mistake that truth is a debatable topic, the truth isnt debatable, what think it is...is.

There is no such thing as a "personal truth/reason", either something is true or a true reason, or it is not. I believe I can prove that the "Christian God" does not exist, or at least there is no reason to believe it. However, I require you (and other Christians) to poke holes in my argument so if I can see if I am right or wrong, and have to change my argument/opinion.

You agree that you cannot prove that your God exists. If something cannot be proved, it is foolish to believe it with 100% certainty. "I dont need to debate it, nor need anyones point of view against it. I know my belief for certainty. See thats the problem you are willing to flip flop, Im not and wont." this statement is the definition the definition of relishing in ignorance.
Maikuru
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8/20/2012 11:24:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 9:37:05 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:33:51 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Beliefs evolve through discussion.

My belief evolved through the Holy Bible and prayer....IDK....I think the Bible speaks for itself and therefore is not a discussion. If you dont believe in the Bible nor the God of it then anything is debatable.

The Bible can't speak for itself. It is a book requiring interpretation. Discussion is a largely necessary component of understanding.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 11:55:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 11:00:45 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:42:52 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:41:06 AM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree. The Christian God is an interventionist deity who's actions are supposedly observable on Earth. The absence of those actions is therefore enough to prove with absolute certainty that he doesn't exist. The Deist God is the only one I think we can't prove or disprove.

I believe in this deity and you do not but you are going to suggest what He is.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Wow, are you serious? Youre saying that believing in something makes you an automatic expert on it. That is blatantly false. There are many believers who believe in the Bible, yet many Atheists know the Bible better than the believer. How can you laugh, youre the one who made the error. You are false.

Prove Im false....I challenge you or any atheist to display more knowlege of the Bible than myself....How ignorant can you be?
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 11:58:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 11:21:37 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

You missed the specific debate topic and the end results of it. I believe because I have my own reasons and Im assuming you do too. I dont need to debate it, nor need anyones point of view against it. I know my belief for certainty. See thats the problem you are willing to flip flop, Im not and wont. You also mistake that truth is a debatable topic, the truth isnt debatable, what think it is...is.

There is no such thing as a "personal truth/reason", either something is true or a true reason, or it is not. I believe I can prove that the "Christian God" does not exist, or at least there is no reason to believe it. However, I require you (and other Christians) to poke holes in my argument so if I can see if I am right or wrong, and have to change my argument/opinion.

You agree that you cannot prove that your God exists. If something cannot be proved, it is foolish to believe it with 100% certainty. "I dont need to debate it, nor need anyones point of view against it. I know my belief for certainty. See thats the problem you are willing to flip flop, Im not and wont." this statement is the definition the definition of relishing in ignorance.

No, believers have already proved God for themselves...what else matters? Who else matters? I will relish in ignorance if that means I reject any philosophy that opposes the Biblical.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 12:01:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 11:24:41 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:37:05 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/20/2012 9:33:51 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Beliefs evolve through discussion.

My belief evolved through the Holy Bible and prayer....IDK....I think the Bible speaks for itself and therefore is not a discussion. If you dont believe in the Bible nor the God of it then anything is debatable.

The Bible can't speak for itself. It is a book requiring interpretation. Discussion is a largely necessary component of understanding.

The Bible very well speaks for itself....I read it...I understand it...it is not that confusing nor indifference....God will translate it if you allow Him too, if not then you are not heeding His Word for what it is.
TheAsylum
Paradox_7
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8/20/2012 12:03:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I can't really argue with Atheists anymore, it never really produces anything usefull..Arguing about God's existence to me is pretty silly..

I only find it edifying to debate with other theists.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 12:04:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No, I do. But wouldnt you say that only those who have belief can observe such things? .:

'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." -- Acts 2:17

Who? The lost or the saved? Or both?^ Look above....
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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8/20/2012 12:05:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 12:03:35 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I can't really argue with Atheists anymore, it never really produces anything usefull..Arguing about God's existence to me is pretty silly..

I only find it edifying to debate with other theists.

So true...In the end it makes us look bad to continue to argue about things we know for fact and that eludes them.
TheAsylum