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An Interesting Argument For God's Existence

Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/20/2012 3:50:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
P1: A self-collapsing wave function is a conscious experience
P2: The wave-function of the universe is self-collapsing
P3: The universe is a conscious experience
P4: God exists

P1 is supported by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's Orch-Or theory. P2 is self-evident, because the only way for the universal wave-function to collapse from something else, would be if there existed a particle outside the universe. Since there can be no particles outside the universe, the wave-function of the universe must be be self-collapsing. P3 follows from the first two premises. Also, a consciousness grand enough to have the universe existing as a conscious experience, would be God. Thus, P4 follows from the preceding premises.

Any thoughts?
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/20/2012 3:58:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Interesting. I have no idea about the Orch-Or Theory, though I have heard of it, but I'm curious to how they support P.1. I could see someone saying a conscious experience is a self collapsing wave function, but I don't see how you could switch it around to imply all self collapsing wave functions are a conscious experience...
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/20/2012 4:36:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 3:58:01 PM, phantom wrote:
Interesting. I have no idea about the Orch-Or Theory, though I have heard of it, but I'm curious to how they support P.1. I could see someone saying a conscious experience is a self collapsing wave function, but I don't see how you could switch it around to imply all self collapsing wave functions are a conscious experience...

The theory is that self-collapsing wave-functions are conscious experiences. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff claim that this is what a self-collapsing wave-function actually is.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/20/2012 4:44:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 3:50:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
P1: A self-collapsing wave function is a conscious experience
P2: The wave-function of the universe is self-collapsing
P3: The universe is a conscious experience
P4: God exists

The Fool: No God is not inherent in the first 3 premises. Lastly its a weak theory at best. So its not even possible to be apart of a logical Proof. Lastly there is no feature here that necessity even using the word God.

P1 is supported by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's Orch-Or theory. P2 is self-evident, because the only way for the universal wave-function to collapse from something else, would be if there existed a particle outside the universe. Since there can be no particles outside the universe, the wave-function of the universe must be be self-collapsing. P3 follows from the first two premises. Also, a consciousness grand enough to have the universe existing as a conscious experience, would be God. Thus, P4 follows from the preceding premises.

Any thoughts?

The Fool: Universe=/=Physical That is a theory, not a truth. What is out side does not exist.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/20/2012 4:50:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 4:36:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 8/20/2012 3:58:01 PM, phantom wrote:
Interesting. I have no idea about the Orch-Or Theory, though I have heard of it, but I'm curious to how they support P.1. I could see someone saying a conscious experience is a self collapsing wave function, but I don't see how you could switch it around to imply all self collapsing wave functions are a conscious experience...

The theory is that self-collapsing wave-functions are conscious experiences. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff claim that this is what a self-collapsing wave-function actually is.

The Fool: Just ask yourself IS that your experience. I mean you doing it now right. So ask youself. Is this experience a wave particle collapsiing. OR ............................................. Is it an experience.

Then ask yourself if science is Empircal. Aka consicously experience. Would you then say science is wave collaping. hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/20/2012 10:16:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
LaLaLaLaLaLaLaLa....
Your an atheist and your attempting to prove...What a joke.
You will never prove God to anyone. If you just regardless of anything believe the Bible and that Jesus Christ shed his blood for you. Then give up your pride and in a sincere humbling manner ask Jesus Christ to come into your life....It will happen....But thats a big IF you do.
TheAsylum
TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/21/2012 12:35:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 3:50:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
P1: A self-collapsing wave function is a conscious experience
P2: The wave-function of the universe is self-collapsing
P3: The universe is a conscious experience
P4: God exists

P1 is supported by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's Orch-Or theory. P2 is self-evident, because the only way for the universal wave-function to collapse from something else, would be if there existed a particle outside the universe. Since there can be no particles outside the universe, the wave-function of the universe must be be self-collapsing. P3 follows from the first two premises. Also, a consciousness grand enough to have the universe existing as a conscious experience, would be God. Thus, P4 follows from the preceding premises.

Any thoughts?

This is like saying Existence is one giant mind, and everything is a figment of it's imagination... Yet fails to grasp that the conscious state is not without cause. So at best you are describing Pantheism, or at the very least Panenthiesm.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/21/2012 12:42:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 10:16:56 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
LaLaLaLaLaLaLaLa....
Your an atheist and your attempting to prove...What a joke.
You will never prove God to anyone. If you just regardless of anything believe the Bible and that Jesus Christ shed his blood for you. Then give up your pride and in a sincere humbling manner ask Jesus Christ to come into your life....It will happen....But thats a big IF you do.

Something tells me your dismissal of the OP isn't based on your understanding of the theory he's referencing.
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TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/21/2012 1:02:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 12:42:32 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 8/20/2012 10:16:56 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
LaLaLaLaLaLaLaLa....
Your an atheist and your attempting to prove...What a joke.
You will never prove God to anyone. If you just regardless of anything believe the Bible and that Jesus Christ shed his blood for you. Then give up your pride and in a sincere humbling manner ask Jesus Christ to come into your life....It will happen....But thats a big IF you do.

Something tells me your dismissal of the OP isn't based on your understanding of the theory he's referencing.

No, I didn't dismiss it, I stated it would be at best the Pantheist GOD, or at the least the Panentheist GOD... Are you denying the Pantheist GOD? Both would be equatable to P4 regarding how both can easily relate to p1 - p3
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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8/21/2012 8:37:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 10:16:56 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
LaLaLaLaLaLaLaLa....
Your an atheist and your attempting to prove...What a joke.

How I'm I attempting to prove God? Posting an argument for God does not equate to advocating the argument. I think you are getting ahead of yourself here.

You will never prove God to anyone.

I don't believe God exists, so why would I ever try to prove a God exists? You are not making much sense here..

If you just regardless of anything believe the Bible and that Jesus Christ shed his blood for you. Then give up your pride and in a sincere humbling manner ask Jesus Christ to come into your life....It will happen....But thats a big IF you do.

Why would I give two craps about Jesus Christ? lol