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Does the award for the greatest evil go to Sa

GreatestIam
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8/21/2012 7:34:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Does the award for the greatest evil go to Satan or God?

Many blame Satan for the evils of this world even as his power to deceive all of us comes from God.

As the creator of Satan, many think that God deserves the blame as he knew what Satan would be because God knows everything in advance.

What is the greatest evil you can think of and who do you think is to blame for it?

Who is the greatest sinner, Satan or God?

I lean toward God as scriptures name him the Alpha and Omega which to me means the best and the worse. Also, scriptures have God saying not to place any other above him and I would be going against this by placing Satan above him in the category of the most evil. I do not want to break the first commandment.

Do you dare by putting Satan above God?

Regards
DL
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/21/2012 8:11:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 7:34:06 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Does the award for the greatest evil go to Satan or God?

Satan and man.
Many blame Satan for the evils of this world even as his power to deceive all of us comes from God.

No your wrong.
As the creator of Satan, many think that God deserves the blame as he knew what Satan would be because God knows everything in advance.

How can you give perfect freedom and will? If you stop something because you know it you stop that from being what it wants to be even if its very bad. Free-will is important as our liberties show.
What is the greatest evil you can think of and who do you think is to blame for it?
Deception/ Satan started it but man is giving it more life.

Who is the greatest sinner, Satan or God?

God doesnt sin.
I lean toward God as scriptures name him the Alpha and Omega which to me means the best and the worse. Also, scriptures have God saying not to place any other above him and I would be going against this by placing Satan above him in the category of the most evil. I do not want to break the first commandment.

Ignorance.
Do you dare by putting Satan above God?

Yes, satan committs evil and God has never. How can you a inferior mentally(all man) even have the ego to know?
TheAsylum
annanicole
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8/21/2012 9:34:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"I lean toward God as scriptures name him the Alpha and Omega which to me means the best and the worse."

Alpha and Omega means the first and the last - not the best and the worst.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
GreatestIam
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8/21/2012 2:35:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 9:34:51 AM, annanicole wrote:
"I lean toward God as scriptures name him the Alpha and Omega which to me means the best and the worse."

Alpha and Omega means the first and the last - not the best and the worst.

More than that I think.

http://www.desiringgod.org...

But God isn't speaking about alphabets. He is speaking of reality. God is absolutely the beginning and absolutely the end. Everything that is originates ultimately in him. And everything will somehow end with him.

If God is absolutely the beginning of everything, that would include evil. If God has no control of it, then he is not all powerful.

Regards
DL
annanicole
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8/21/2012 2:49:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"If God is absolutely the beginning of everything, that would include evil. If God has no control of it, then he is not all powerful."

Perhaps He chooses to limit His "control" instead of micromanaging everyone's thoughts and affairs. Such would be a characteristic of an all-powerful God, if He so desired.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
GreatestIam
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8/21/2012 2:57:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 8:11:31 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/21/2012 7:34:06 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Does the award for the greatest evil go to Satan or God?

Satan and man.

There is only one gold medal. Who is your one candidate?

Many blame Satan for the evils of this world even as his power to deceive all of us comes from God.

No your wrong.

You mean scriptures are lying?

As the creator of Satan, many think that God deserves the blame as he knew what Satan would be because God knows everything in advance.

How can you give perfect freedom and will?

I do not believe in the concept of freedom as we are a hierarchical communal species and are thus all in a common together and are all beholden to it. That is why in law they use the word liberty.

The free will we allow is basically to just follow the rules of the tribe or break them and be punished by6 the tribe if caught.


If you stop something because you know it you stop that from being what it wants to be even if its very bad.

Sorry friend. I have no idea what you are saying here. Try again.


Free-will is important as our liberties show.

I agree.

What is the greatest evil you can think of and who do you think is to blame for it?
Deception/ Satan started it but man is giving it more life.


If you are speaking of Eden then what was the deception. The talking snake gave more of the consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge than God did so some may see God as doing the deceiving. Count the consequrnces for yourself to prove this statement.

Dogma also says that Adam's was the first sin and that is what brought daeth to the earth. If Satan deceived A & E as you seem to think then Satan is to blame. Right?


Who is the greatest sinner, Satan or God?

God doesnt sin.


Having people murdered, women raped and children's heads smashed onto rocks are not a sin to you?

Does your God not think rape is a sin


I lean toward God as scriptures name him the Alpha and Omega which to me means the best and the worse. Also, scriptures have God saying not to place any other above him and I would be going against this by placing Satan above him in the category of the most evil. I do not want to break the first commandment.

Ignorance.

Thanks for the correction and see you follow the good advice of your scriptures. Not.

Do you dare by putting Satan above God?

Yes, satan committs evil and God has never. How can you a inferior mentally(all man) even have the ego to know?

I guess you somehow do not include yourself in your "all man" and somehow have the ego to know. You can judge God as good but I cannot judge God unless I agree with you.

Reciprocity is fair play but I guess you have a different rule book. An immoral one.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/21/2012 3:02:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 2:49:12 PM, annanicole wrote:
"If God is absolutely the beginning of everything, that would include evil. If God has no control of it, then he is not all powerful."

Perhaps He chooses to limit His "control" instead of micromanaging everyone's thoughts and affairs. Such would be a characteristic of an all-powerful God, if He so desired.

Perhaps. But that would be a pure unfounded and unsupported assumption.

Strange though that the evidence, if we can call it that, in scriptures show that he likes to micro-manage. Look at all the times he kills and gives commands.

Your " perhaps " is a fail and perhaps not would be more accurate.

Regards
DL
Dogknox
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8/21/2012 3:08:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 7:34:06 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Does the award for the greatest evil go to Satan or God?

Many blame Satan for the evils of this world even as his power to deceive all of us comes from God.

As the creator of Satan, many think that God deserves the blame as he knew what Satan would be because God knows everything in advance.

What is the greatest evil you can think of and who do you think is to blame for it?

Who is the greatest sinner, Satan or God?

I lean toward God as scriptures name him the Alpha and Omega which to me means the best and the worse. Also, scriptures have God saying not to place any other above him and I would be going against this by placing Satan above him in the category of the most evil. I do not want to break the first commandment.

Do you dare by putting Satan above God?

Regards
DL
It was "Adams & Eves" sin that brought us life! God turned the sin around, not only was Adam and Eve brought to life, the sin made it possible for us as their descendants to be given life!
From the two "Adam & Eve" sprang billions of people redeemed by God!

Dogknox
annanicole
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8/21/2012 3:09:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 3:02:49 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/21/2012 2:49:12 PM, annanicole wrote:
"If God is absolutely the beginning of everything, that would include evil. If God has no control of it, then he is not all powerful."

Perhaps He chooses to limit His "control" instead of micromanaging everyone's thoughts and affairs. Such would be a characteristic of an all-powerful God, if He so desired.

Perhaps. But that would be a pure unfounded and unsupported assumption.

Strange though that the evidence, if we can call it that, in scriptures show that he likes to micro-manage. Look at all the times he kills and gives commands.

Your " perhaps " is a fail and perhaps not would be more accurate.

Regards
DL

Instances of a lack of micromanagement outnumber instances of it by 100 to 1, maybe 1,000 to 1. Look at all the times he ... gives commands? That, in and of itself, implies a lack of micromanagement. And ... instances of micromanagement dwindle as the Bible progresses, until by the time we move into the New Testament, they are almost nonexistent.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Stephen_Hawkins
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8/21/2012 3:09:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 8:11:31 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/21/2012 7:34:06 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Many blame Satan for the evils of this world even as his power to deceive all of us comes from God.

No your wrong.

I love this. It's essentially someone going "There's a lot of people who say Satan is responsible", and replying by saying "No, your wrong, no-one says that". It just sounds silly...
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
GreatestIam
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8/21/2012 3:35:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 3:08:11 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 8/21/2012 7:34:06 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Does the award for the greatest evil go to Satan or God?

Many blame Satan for the evils of this world even as his power to deceive all of us comes from God.

As the creator of Satan, many think that God deserves the blame as he knew what Satan would be because God knows everything in advance.

What is the greatest evil you can think of and who do you think is to blame for it?

Who is the greatest sinner, Satan or God?

I lean toward God as scriptures name him the Alpha and Omega which to me means the best and the worse. Also, scriptures have God saying not to place any other above him and I would be going against this by placing Satan above him in the category of the most evil. I do not want to break the first commandment.

Do you dare by putting Satan above God?

Regards
DL
It was "Adams & Eves" sin that brought us life! God turned the sin around, not only was Adam and Eve brought to life, the sin made it possible for us as their descendants to be given life!
From the two "Adam & Eve" sprang billions of people redeemed by God!

Dogknox

Redeemed by God. How nice.

Who condemned us in the first place?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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8/21/2012 3:38:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 3:09:43 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:02:49 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/21/2012 2:49:12 PM, annanicole wrote:
"If God is absolutely the beginning of everything, that would include evil. If God has no control of it, then he is not all powerful."

Perhaps He chooses to limit His "control" instead of micromanaging everyone's thoughts and affairs. Such would be a characteristic of an all-powerful God, if He so desired.

Perhaps. But that would be a pure unfounded and unsupported assumption.

Strange though that the evidence, if we can call it that, in scriptures show that he likes to micro-manage. Look at all the times he kills and gives commands.

Your " perhaps " is a fail and perhaps not would be more accurate.

Regards
DL

Instances of a lack of micromanagement outnumber instances of it by 100 to 1, maybe 1,000 to 1. Look at all the times he ... gives commands? That, in and of itself, implies a lack of micromanagement. And ... instances of micromanagement dwindle as the Bible progresses, until by the time we move into the New Testament, they are almost nonexistent.

So what? God does not change and he had a precedent of micro-managing.

Is this your best apologetics?

Regards
DL
annanicole
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8/21/2012 5:10:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 3:38:41 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:09:43 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:02:49 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 8/21/2012 2:49:12 PM, annanicole wrote:
"If God is absolutely the beginning of everything, that would include evil. If God has no control of it, then he is not all powerful."

Perhaps He chooses to limit His "control" instead of micromanaging everyone's thoughts and affairs. Such would be a characteristic of an all-powerful God, if He so desired.

Perhaps. But that would be a pure unfounded and unsupported assumption.

Strange though that the evidence, if we can call it that, in scriptures show that he likes to micro-manage. Look at all the times he kills and gives commands.

Your " perhaps " is a fail and perhaps not would be more accurate.

Regards
DL

Instances of a lack of micromanagement outnumber instances of it by 100 to 1, maybe 1,000 to 1. Look at all the times he ... gives commands? That, in and of itself, implies a lack of micromanagement. And ... instances of micromanagement dwindle as the Bible progresses, until by the time we move into the New Testament, they are almost nonexistent.

So what? God does not change and he had a precedent of micro-managing.

Is this your best apologetics?

Regards
DL

"God does not change" <-- therefore, if He every micromanaged, He still does? Is that it? The best you have? Well, He also has a precedent, many of them, for not micromanaging, so that precedent is set also.

Of course, the problem is a misapplication of "God does not change."

Try some more.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Maikuru
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8/21/2012 5:19:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Does it matter that God's a tool? He's still the one with the keys to heaven. Sometimes you just have to deal with it, like when you're nice to your neighbor with the van because you know you're going to be moving soon.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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GeoLaureate8
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8/21/2012 5:29:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I proved in my formal debate that Satan is more benign than Yahweh:

- God killed 2,301,417 people in the Bible [1]

- Satan killed 10 people in the Bible [1]

- God said don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge

- Satan said to eat from the Tree of Knowledge

- God demands the slaughter of babies. (This occurs in several verses including this one: Samuel 15:3: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.")

- God mutilates those who oppose him: "... they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." - Hosea 13:16

http://www.debate.org...

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/21/2012 5:58:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 5:29:44 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I proved in my formal debate that Satan is more benign than Yahweh:

- God killed 2,301,417 people in the Bible [1]

- Satan killed 10 people in the Bible [1]

- God said don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge

- Satan said to eat from the Tree of Knowledge

- God demands the slaughter of babies. (This occurs in several verses including this one: Samuel 15:3: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.")

- God mutilates those who oppose him: "... they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." - Hosea 13:16

http://www.debate.org...



You also had a retard for an opponent.



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Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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8/21/2012 6:02:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So, its things like this produced from atheism that always surprise me the most. Th every premise is almost laughable.

You are telling me that atheists went through and counted the number of death that God caused, and then the number of deaths that Satan caused? Seriously?

And in the midst of this study, this profound examination of religion, theology, we missed everything that had to do with morality save death? We've totally missed the point of what God is doing and what Satan is doing, and the later is seeking to enslave us ... hardly an evil thing.

Lets see if we can put death in proper perspective for our theological minded atheists. If you jump off a building, sans parachute, and you die, whose fault is that? Gods? Or yours? Now, if Satan were to whisk in and and save your life at the last second, that would be good right? Except he just took away your agency did he not? He just removed consequences from your actions, and, over time, the lack of consequences teaches you rather poor lessons does it not? You want that woman? Just rape her? No worries, papa satan will keep you from any consequences? That you would also be doing his will while being freed of consequence?

And this strikes you, no doubt in the midst of vast and cavernous examination of faith, as ... the opposite of evil?

Now tell me, how do atheists actually view ... self defense? Are Soldiers marching off to war inherently evil? If not, then how is God evil for defending his people? Defending his people against forces that are MUCH larger and more pwerful than the ancient Israelites?

Self defense is evil? But heh, the devil runs away when asked to defend something, so now he is not evil?

I think atheists have this one backward - and I think that is quite deliberate (espcially given that so much of the Bible has to be simply ignored to arrive at such a spurious ... accusation.)
ScottyDouglas
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8/22/2012 12:48:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 5:29:44 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I proved in my formal debate that Satan is more benign than Yahweh:

- God killed 2,301,417 people in the Bible [1]
Prove it...scriptures.

- Satan killed 10 people in the Bible [1]
Again proof

- God said don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge
True

- Satan said to eat from the Tree of Knowledge
True

- God demands the slaughter of babies. (This occurs in several verses including this one: Samuel 15:3: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.")

I wonder, obviously someone didnt read the verses leading up to it and why it was done.
- God mutilates those who oppose him: "... they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." - Hosea 13:16

Why shouldnt He?
TheAsylum
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/22/2012 10:07:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/22/2012 12:48:42 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/21/2012 5:29:44 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I proved in my formal debate that Satan is more benign than Yahweh:

- God killed 2,301,417 people in the Bible [1]
Prove it...scriptures.

Um, ok, it's in the Bible, I shouldn't have to spoonfeed you the proof, but here you go.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

- Satan killed 10 people in the Bible [1]
Again proof

See above.

- God said don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge
True

- Satan said to eat from the Tree of Knowledge
True

- God demands the slaughter of babies. (This occurs in several verses including this one: Samuel 15:3: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.")

I wonder, obviously someone didnt read the verses leading up to it and why it was done.

"(Bible believers often tell us to look at the context. But context nearly always makes Bible stories worse, not better. This story is no exception.)

Samuel also said unto Saul ... Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$s. 1 Samuel 15.1-3"
-- http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

God demanded the slaughter of babies, pregnant women, and elderly people because of what their ancestries did to Israel.

- God mutilates those who oppose him: "... they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." - Hosea 13:16

Why shouldnt He?

If we applied this logic to politics, you would think it's perfectly ok to approach liberals who oppose you, slash them with a sword, dash their infants to prices, and rip up pregnant women. Sounds legit.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GreatestIam
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8/23/2012 10:10:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:02:20 PM, neutral wrote:
So, its things like this produced from atheism that always surprise me the most. Th every premise is almost laughable.

You are telling me that atheists went through and counted the number of death that God caused, and then the number of deaths that Satan caused? Seriously?

And in the midst of this study, this profound examination of religion, theology, we missed everything that had to do with morality save death? We've totally missed the point of what God is doing and what Satan is doing, and the later is seeking to enslave us ... hardly an evil thing.

Lets see if we can put death in proper perspective for our theological minded atheists. If you jump off a building, sans parachute, and you die, whose fault is that? Gods? Or yours? Now, if Satan were to whisk in and and save your life at the last second, that would be good right? Except he just took away your agency did he not? He just removed consequences from your actions, and, over time, the lack of consequences teaches you rather poor lessons does it not? You want that woman? Just rape her? No worries, papa satan will keep you from any consequences? That you would also be doing his will while being freed of consequence?

And this strikes you, no doubt in the midst of vast and cavernous examination of faith, as ... the opposite of evil?

Now tell me, how do atheists actually view ... self defense? Are Soldiers marching off to war inherently evil? If not, then how is God evil for defending his people? Defending his people against forces that are MUCH larger and more pwerful than the ancient Israelites?

Self defense is evil? But heh, the devil runs away when asked to defend something, so now he is not evil?

I think atheists have this one backward - and I think that is quite deliberate (espcially given that so much of the Bible has to be simply ignored to arrive at such a spurious ... accusation.)

God can cure as easily as kill yet chooses to kill.
That is quite evil.

Regards
DL