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Eternal Hell

MouthWash
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8/21/2012 3:41:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What are some arguments in favor of this incessant insanity? How would a rational God put a bunch of humans down on a planet ask them to believe in him, or else they would suffer? What was the point in that? Think about spending a Googolplex years in torment. Googolplex is a one followed by a Googol zeros. One Googol is presumed to be greater than the number of hydrogen atoms in the observable universe.

Now if the entire volume of the observable universe (taken to be 3 × 1080 m3) were packed solid with fine dust particles about 1.5 micrometres in size, then the number of different ways of ordering these particles would be approximately one Googolplex.

What about Graham's number? There are 64 layers that make up Graham's number, each inconceivably larger than the one before it. Graham's number cannot even be written using any sort of normal notation, such as exponents, or even exponents piled upon exponents.

"[Graham's number] is nothing but a finite positive integer, though a large one. It is composite and odd, rather than prime or even; it is perfectly divisible by three. Encoded in the decimal digits of that number, by almost any encoding scheme one cares to name, are all the works ever written by the human hand, and all the works that could have been written, at a hundred thousand words per minute, over the age of the Universe raised to its own power a thousand times. And yet, if we add up all the base-ten digits the result will be divisible by nine. The number is still a finite positive integer. It may contain Universes unimaginably larger than this one, but it is still only a number. It is a number so small that the algorithm to produce it can be held in a single human mind." -Eliezer Yudkowsky

And I have to ask- if, say, Gandhi suffered in hell for that many years- suppose that God happened to stop by for a chat. "Well, I know you saved many lives, ended colonialism in your homeland, and stayed true to your pacifistic principles to the end, but you didn't listen to that small nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to worship one particular God, so I guess you deserve this. Never mind that this happened Graham's number years ago. Oh, and it's not me doing this to you, your suffering is a result of your rejection of me and my son. Why can't you convert now? I- I don't know. Maybe it would be unfair since you would already know who to worship. Why don't I just reincarnate you or something wipe your memories? Good point. Never thought of that one. Wait, what is the point in this anyway? Why is it so important to believe in me in the first place? After all, I never came down to prove my existence directly to you guys. Speaking of which, if I provided pagans who had never heard of Christianity with a small guiding voice inside them telling them to follow Christ, how come there have never been any independent emergences of Christianity where it had never been found before? I'm confused."
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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8/21/2012 4:06:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

I am talking about a rational, just God.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/21/2012 4:22:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

Almost any human would not want a single person to got to hell and would be appalled at the thought of sending someone to prolonged torture.

Hmmmm, I guess we're more moral than God.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
acvavra
Posts: 318
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8/21/2012 4:24:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 3:41:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
What are some arguments in favor of this incessant insanity? How would a rational God put a bunch of humans down on a planet ask them to believe in him, or else they would suffer? What was the point in that? Think about spending a Googolplex years in torment. Googolplex is a one followed by a Googol zeros. One Googol is presumed to be greater than the number of hydrogen atoms in the observable universe.

Now if the entire volume of the observable universe (taken to be 3 × 1080 m3) were packed solid with fine dust particles about 1.5 micrometres in size, then the number of different ways of ordering these particles would be approximately one Googolplex.

What about Graham's number? There are 64 layers that make up Graham's number, each inconceivably larger than the one before it. Graham's number cannot even be written using any sort of normal notation, such as exponents, or even exponents piled upon exponents.

"[Graham's number] is nothing but a finite positive integer, though a large one. It is composite and odd, rather than prime or even; it is perfectly divisible by three. Encoded in the decimal digits of that number, by almost any encoding scheme one cares to name, are all the works ever written by the human hand, and all the works that could have been written, at a hundred thousand words per minute, over the age of the Universe raised to its own power a thousand times. And yet, if we add up all the base-ten digits the result will be divisible by nine. The number is still a finite positive integer. It may contain Universes unimaginably larger than this one, but it is still only a number. It is a number so small that the algorithm to produce it can be held in a single human mind." -Eliezer Yudkowsky

And I have to ask- if, say, Gandhi suffered in hell for that many years- suppose that God happened to stop by for a chat. "Well, I know you saved many lives, ended colonialism in your homeland, and stayed true to your pacifistic principles to the end, but you didn't listen to that small nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to worship one particular God, so I guess you deserve this. Never mind that this happened Graham's number years ago. Oh, and it's not me doing this to you, your suffering is a result of your rejection of me and my son. Why can't you convert now? I- I don't know. Maybe it would be unfair since you would already know who to worship. Why don't I just reincarnate you or something wipe your memories? Good point. Never thought of that one. Wait, what is the point in this anyway? Why is it so important to believe in me in the first place? After all, I never came down to prove my existence directly to you guys. Speaking of which, if I provided pagans who had never heard of Christianity with a small guiding voice inside them telling them to follow Christ, how come there have never been any independent emergences of Christianity where it had never been found before? I'm confused."

That's EXACTLY why Gandhi is burning in Hell, He trusted in his good deeds. The VERY THING GOD DOESN'T WANT YOU TO DO, is think that your good enough to make it to Heaven. Despite all the good Gandhi did, his sins CONDEMN HIM TO HELL. The only thing God wants you to do is TRUST HIS SON TO SAVE YOU by dying for your sins. It's all about faith friend, that's the greatest test of all. That's why God doesn't show himself to man, he wants faith. And it's not blind faith either, for prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled such as the Jews getting their land back(Amos 9:14-15).
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/21/2012 4:48:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

What evidence suggests that Christianity is true?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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8/21/2012 4:52:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 4:24:45 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:41:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
What are some arguments in favor of this incessant insanity? How would a rational God put a bunch of humans down on a planet ask them to believe in him, or else they would suffer? What was the point in that? Think about spending a Googolplex years in torment. Googolplex is a one followed by a Googol zeros. One Googol is presumed to be greater than the number of hydrogen atoms in the observable universe.

Now if the entire volume of the observable universe (taken to be 3 × 1080 m3) were packed solid with fine dust particles about 1.5 micrometres in size, then the number of different ways of ordering these particles would be approximately one Googolplex.

What about Graham's number? There are 64 layers that make up Graham's number, each inconceivably larger than the one before it. Graham's number cannot even be written using any sort of normal notation, such as exponents, or even exponents piled upon exponents.

"[Graham's number] is nothing but a finite positive integer, though a large one. It is composite and odd, rather than prime or even; it is perfectly divisible by three. Encoded in the decimal digits of that number, by almost any encoding scheme one cares to name, are all the works ever written by the human hand, and all the works that could have been written, at a hundred thousand words per minute, over the age of the Universe raised to its own power a thousand times. And yet, if we add up all the base-ten digits the result will be divisible by nine. The number is still a finite positive integer. It may contain Universes unimaginably larger than this one, but it is still only a number. It is a number so small that the algorithm to produce it can be held in a single human mind." -Eliezer Yudkowsky

And I have to ask- if, say, Gandhi suffered in hell for that many years- suppose that God happened to stop by for a chat. "Well, I know you saved many lives, ended colonialism in your homeland, and stayed true to your pacifistic principles to the end, but you didn't listen to that small nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to worship one particular God, so I guess you deserve this. Never mind that this happened Graham's number years ago. Oh, and it's not me doing this to you, your suffering is a result of your rejection of me and my son. Why can't you convert now? I- I don't know. Maybe it would be unfair since you would already know who to worship. Why don't I just reincarnate you or something wipe your memories? Good point. Never thought of that one. Wait, what is the point in this anyway? Why is it so important to believe in me in the first place? After all, I never came down to prove my existence directly to you guys. Speaking of which, if I provided pagans who had never heard of Christianity with a small guiding voice inside them telling them to follow Christ, how come there have never been any independent emergences of Christianity where it had never been found before? I'm confused."

That's EXACTLY why Gandhi is burning in Hell, He trusted in his good deeds. The VERY THING GOD DOESN'T WANT YOU TO DO, is think that your good enough to make it to Heaven. Despite all the good Gandhi did, his sins CONDEMN HIM TO HELL. The only thing God wants you to do is TRUST HIS SON TO SAVE YOU by dying for your sins. It's all about faith friend, that's the greatest test of all. That's why God doesn't show himself to man, he wants faith. And it's not blind faith either, for prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled such as the Jews getting their land back(Amos 9:14-15).

I'm sorry, but what is the point of giving man the ability to reason and demanding that he believe in God through 'faith?' Is it some sort of game to him? If you don't believe in trusting in your "own" good deeds, why send a sick person to the hospital? God will cure her! I can't imagine any just God allowing someone else to suffer for someone else's sins. We all are responsible for what we do.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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8/21/2012 5:13:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 3:41:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
What are some arguments in favor of this incessant insanity? How would a rational God put a bunch of humans down on a planet ask them to believe in him, or else they would suffer? What was the point in that? Think about spending a Googolplex years in torment. Googolplex is a one followed by a Googol zeros. One Googol is presumed to be greater than the number of hydrogen atoms in the observable universe.

Now if the entire volume of the observable universe (taken to be 3 × 1080 m3) were packed solid with fine dust particles about 1.5 micrometres in size, then the number of different ways of ordering these particles would be approximately one Googolplex.

What about Graham's number? There are 64 layers that make up Graham's number, each inconceivably larger than the one before it. Graham's number cannot even be written using any sort of normal notation, such as exponents, or even exponents piled upon exponents.

"[Graham's number] is nothing but a finite positive integer, though a large one. It is composite and odd, rather than prime or even; it is perfectly divisible by three. Encoded in the decimal digits of that number, by almost any encoding scheme one cares to name, are all the works ever written by the human hand, and all the works that could have been written, at a hundred thousand words per minute, over the age of the Universe raised to its own power a thousand times. And yet, if we add up all the base-ten digits the result will be divisible by nine. The number is still a finite positive integer. It may contain Universes unimaginably larger than this one, but it is still only a number. It is a number so small that the algorithm to produce it can be held in a single human mind." -Eliezer Yudkowsky

And I have to ask- if, say, Gandhi suffered in hell for that many years- suppose that God happened to stop by for a chat. "Well, I know you saved many lives, ended colonialism in your homeland, and stayed true to your pacifistic principles to the end, but you didn't listen to that small nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to worship one particular God, so I guess you deserve this. Never mind that this happened Graham's number years ago. Oh, and it's not me doing this to you, your suffering is a result of your rejection of me and my son. Why can't you convert now? I- I don't know. Maybe it would be unfair since you would already know who to worship. Why don't I just reincarnate you or something wipe your memories? Good point. Never thought of that one. Wait, what is the point in this anyway? Why is it so important to believe in me in the first place? After all, I never came down to prove my existence directly to you guys. Speaking of which, if I provided pagans who had never heard of Christianity with a small guiding voice inside them telling them to follow Christ, how come there have never been any independent emergences of Christianity where it had never been found before? I'm confused."

Desire trumps knowledge.

Suppose God's will for man is happiness sought on our own terms, those who desire a justly-seeking self forming choice in the pursuit of happiness justly achieve complete happiness. But how can God justly (and logically) bestow (and have received) complete happiness on a person who desire an unjustly-seeking self-forming choice in the pursuit of happiness?

The former involves the law of accelerating returns (of happiness) since it's other-&-God oriented, whereas the former involve's the law of diminishing returns (of happiness) since it's self-oriented- happiness sought at the EXPENSE of others.

If this is true, then not only what WE desire matters externally, but what GOD desires matters as well. Those in hell neither desire what God desire, nor does God desire them, they've formed themselves as unjust.

The Christian message isn't that you're morally wrong & I'm morally right, nor is it you're morally right and I'm wrong- rather it's that we're ALL messed up- we need salvation from ourselves. God acted justly, sacrificed himself so that we might know him in the way he desires we know each-other and himself: Agape Love (true, sacrificial love, other oriented).

So it's not belief that matters so much as what we choose and how we choose it. Any evil in our life is defeated if we give a virtuous response in the way of true love- a justly seeking self forming choice.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/21/2012 5:14:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 4:06:10 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

I am talking about a rational, just God.


what do you know of rationality or justice in comparison to an Eternal God?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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8/21/2012 5:18:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 4:48:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

What evidence suggests that Christianity is true?

There's about 22 massive arguments and countless philosophical foundations for each... all of which are obviously controversial. Ya have time in this existence to cover all that? I mean it's out there if you want to, just know those responses have responses (out to who knows many response-responses).

Atheism has about 2 good arguments and many different philosophical foundations for each... all of which are obviously controversial. Ya have time in this existence to cover all that? I mean it's out there if you want to, just know those responses have responses (out to who knows many response-responses).

What then if I'm right, that desire trumps knowledge in this life? What worldview shall we give existential preference to, given the stakes? ... Well if you're going to make ANY choice, it seems the most obvious would be the with eternal significance.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/21/2012 5:20:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 4:22:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

Almost any human would not want a single person to got to hell and would be appalled at the thought of sending someone to prolonged torture.

Hmmmm, I guess we're more moral than God.


Perfect beings don't live morally, they live perfectly.

Anything a perfect being does, is without flaw, and is the perfect thing to do.

We are not perfect, and therefore have 'morals' to live by.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/21/2012 5:28:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 4:48:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

What evidence suggests that Christianity is true?


Is all evidence universal? that is, does it carry the same weight for everyone?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
acvavra
Posts: 318
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8/21/2012 5:30:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 4:52:37 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 8/21/2012 4:24:45 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:41:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
What are some arguments in favor of this incessant insanity? How would a rational God put a bunch of humans down on a planet ask them to believe in him, or else they would suffer? What was the point in that? Think about spending a Googolplex years in torment. Googolplex is a one followed by a Googol zeros. One Googol is presumed to be greater than the number of hydrogen atoms in the observable universe.

Now if the entire volume of the observable universe (taken to be 3 × 1080 m3) were packed solid with fine dust particles about 1.5 micrometres in size, then the number of different ways of ordering these particles would be approximately one Googolplex.

What about Graham's number? There are 64 layers that make up Graham's number, each inconceivably larger than the one before it. Graham's number cannot even be written using any sort of normal notation, such as exponents, or even exponents piled upon exponents.

"[Graham's number] is nothing but a finite positive integer, though a large one. It is composite and odd, rather than prime or even; it is perfectly divisible by three. Encoded in the decimal digits of that number, by almost any encoding scheme one cares to name, are all the works ever written by the human hand, and all the works that could have been written, at a hundred thousand words per minute, over the age of the Universe raised to its own power a thousand times. And yet, if we add up all the base-ten digits the result will be divisible by nine. The number is still a finite positive integer. It may contain Universes unimaginably larger than this one, but it is still only a number. It is a number so small that the algorithm to produce it can be held in a single human mind." -Eliezer Yudkowsky

And I have to ask- if, say, Gandhi suffered in hell for that many years- suppose that God happened to stop by for a chat. "Well, I know you saved many lives, ended colonialism in your homeland, and stayed true to your pacifistic principles to the end, but you didn't listen to that small nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to worship one particular God, so I guess you deserve this. Never mind that this happened Graham's number years ago. Oh, and it's not me doing this to you, your suffering is a result of your rejection of me and my son. Why can't you convert now? I- I don't know. Maybe it would be unfair since you would already know who to worship. Why don't I just reincarnate you or something wipe your memories? Good point. Never thought of that one. Wait, what is the point in this anyway? Why is it so important to believe in me in the first place? After all, I never came down to prove my existence directly to you guys. Speaking of which, if I provided pagans who had never heard of Christianity with a small guiding voice inside them telling them to follow Christ, how come there have never been any independent emergences of Christianity where it had never been found before? I'm confused."

That's EXACTLY why Gandhi is burning in Hell, He trusted in his good deeds. The VERY THING GOD DOESN'T WANT YOU TO DO, is think that your good enough to make it to Heaven. Despite all the good Gandhi did, his sins CONDEMN HIM TO HELL. The only thing God wants you to do is TRUST HIS SON TO SAVE YOU by dying for your sins. It's all about faith friend, that's the greatest test of all. That's why God doesn't show himself to man, he wants faith. And it's not blind faith either, for prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled such as the Jews getting their land back(Amos 9:14-15).

I'm sorry, but what is the point of giving man the ability to reason and demanding that he believe in God through 'faith?' Is it some sort of game to him? If you don't believe in trusting in your "own" good deeds, why send a sick person to the hospital? God will cure her! I can't imagine any just God allowing someone else to suffer for someone else's sins. We all are responsible for what we do.

No, its not a game, he just wants to see who trusts Him completely. Good deeds are fine, but thinking that they'll get you to Heaven WILL send you to Hell. God doesn't consider you good(Romans 3:10) He considers you a wicked sinner(Romans 3:23). And sin is what separates you from Heaven(Romans 3:23) no matter what good you've done.
MouthWash
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8/21/2012 5:40:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm starting to know why the atheists are so frustrated.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/21/2012 5:45:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 5:40:50 PM, MouthWash wrote:
I'm starting to know why the atheists are so frustrated.


Of course, they believe they deserve to know what God knows. If the knowledge that God has, [his reasons] are not presented to man with all clarity, they reject him.

Maybe God wishes to humble us all.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/21/2012 5:55:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 5:18:07 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 8/21/2012 4:48:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

What evidence suggests that Christianity is true?

There's about 22 massive arguments and countless philosophical foundations for each... all of which are obviously controversial. Ya have time in this existence to cover all that? I mean it's out there if you want to, just know those responses have responses (out to who knows many response-responses).

There's an argument and response to just about anything. It seems that no matter how sound an argument is people will still try and poke holes that don't exist until they've raised enough false objections to weaken it's resonance. And no matter how blatantly false an argument may be, people will still twist logic and misconstrue findings until it seems right.

Atheism has about 2 good arguments and many different philosophical foundations for each... all of which are obviously controversial. Ya have time in this existence to cover all that? I mean it's out there if you want to, just know those responses have responses (out to who knows many response-responses).

What then if I'm right, that desire trumps knowledge in this life? What worldview shall we give existential preference to, given the stakes? ... Well if you're going to make ANY choice, it seems the most obvious would be the with eternal significance.

You can't make overarching claims about which are "happier" beliefs and which satisfy desire more. People are different, and find happiness in a different light than you do. To me, Christianity, endless existence, punishment, suppression, ruling, are about as dismal as it gets.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/21/2012 6:10:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:03:24 PM, neutral wrote:
Well, as simply as I can state this, God doesn't put you in hell - you do.


Amen.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/21/2012 6:13:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:03:24 PM, neutral wrote:
Well, as simply as I can state this, God doesn't put you in hell - you do.

You people frustrate the hell out of me. I don't mean to be rude, but how often do you sit down and consider what causes people to act the way they do, the way that might perhaps land them in this so-called hell? One need not even see the behemoth of neurological evidence to realize that our decision are not entirely of our own origination. Genetics, upbringing, social environment all contribute to what kind of person you become, and you have no say as to the magnitude or significance of those influences. The same way that you can't stop your heart from beating by commanding it to stop, you can't direct what personality you develop.

You might say that one has the ability to change his personality by his own volition, but isn't the motivation to changes one's personality dependent on his already existing personality? Eternal torture is a sadistic and careless thought and whatever deity would ALLOW his creations to fall into such unimaginable pain is not worthy of worship, or even the most basic respect.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Reason_Alliance
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8/21/2012 6:16:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 5:55:57 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/21/2012 5:18:07 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 8/21/2012 4:48:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

What evidence suggests that Christianity is true?

There's about 22 massive arguments and countless philosophical foundations for each... all of which are obviously controversial. Ya have time in this existence to cover all that? I mean it's out there if you want to, just know those responses have responses (out to who knows many response-responses).

There's an argument and response to just about anything. It seems that no matter how sound an argument is people will still try and poke holes that don't exist until they've raised enough false objections to weaken it's resonance. And no matter how blatantly false an argument may be, people will still twist logic and misconstrue findings until it seems right.

Yup, my point exactly.

Atheism has about 2 good arguments and many different philosophical foundations for each... all of which are obviously controversial. Ya have time in this existence to cover all that? I mean it's out there if you want to, just know those responses have responses (out to who knows many response-responses).

What then if I'm right, that desire trumps knowledge in this life? What worldview shall we give existential preference to, given the stakes? ... Well if you're going to make ANY choice, it seems the most obvious would be the with eternal significance.

You can't make overarching claims about which are "happier" beliefs and which satisfy desire more. People are different, and find happiness in a different light than you do. To me, Christianity, endless existence, punishment, suppression, ruling, are about as dismal as it gets.

You have a grave misunderstanding of what Christianity is my friend. Have you ever read what Christ taught? Have you ever considered a creation where love is unconditionally given by selves who are other-oriented? Have you seen the beauty of God's creation here? His existence is obvious to most in THIS life because of his creation, imagine how much more so than when we're with him...

When this perfect-complete happiness is experienced, no sane person would desire its cessation.
Reason_Alliance
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8/21/2012 6:17:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:13:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/21/2012 6:03:24 PM, neutral wrote:
Well, as simply as I can state this, God doesn't put you in hell - you do.

You people frustrate the hell out of me. I don't mean to be rude, but how often do you sit down and consider what causes people to act the way they do, the way that might perhaps land them in this so-called hell? One need not even see the behemoth of neurological evidence to realize that our decision are not entirely of our own origination. Genetics, upbringing, social environment all contribute to what kind of person you become, and you have no say as to the magnitude or significance of those influences. The same way that you can't stop your heart from beating by commanding it to stop, you can't direct what personality you develop.

You might say that one has the ability to change his personality by his own volition, but isn't the motivation to changes one's personality dependent on his already existing personality? Eternal torture is a sadistic and careless thought and whatever deity would ALLOW his creations to fall into such unimaginable pain is not worthy of worship, or even the most basic respect.

It's what I've explained TO THE DETAIL above about the two separate alternatives for choosing how to pursue happiness.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/21/2012 6:21:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:10:49 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/21/2012 6:03:24 PM, neutral wrote:
Well, as simply as I can state this, God doesn't put you in hell - you do.


Amen.

The Fool: That is nothing going on here.

If God is all power and does what he pleases then he does put you.
Hell doesn't have to exist if it didn't please him.
thus he also pleases of the suffering or people in hell.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/21/2012 6:23:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 5:20:49 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/21/2012 4:22:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

Almost any human would not want a single person to got to hell and would be appalled at the thought of sending someone to prolonged torture.

Hmmmm, I guess we're more moral than God.


Perfect beings don't live morally, they live perfectly.

Anything a perfect being does, is without flaw, and is the perfect thing to do.

We are not perfect, and therefore have 'morals' to live by.

The Fool: Then he is not Good. So he doesn't exist
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/21/2012 6:25:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:23:18 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/21/2012 5:20:49 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/21/2012 4:22:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

Almost any human would not want a single person to got to hell and would be appalled at the thought of sending someone to prolonged torture.

Hmmmm, I guess we're more moral than God.


Perfect beings don't live morally, they live perfectly.

Anything a perfect being does, is without flaw, and is the perfect thing to do.

We are not perfect, and therefore have 'morals' to live by.

The Fool: Then he is not Good. So he doesn't exist


Morals were made for humans.

God is good, we are not.

we don't exist. lol
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/21/2012 6:27:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:16:14 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:

You have a grave misunderstanding of what Christianity is my friend. Have you ever read what Christ taught? Have you ever considered a creation where love is unconditionally given by selves who are other-oriented? Have you seen the beauty of God's creation here? His existence is obvious to most in THIS life because of his creation, imagine how much more so than when we're with him...

When this perfect-complete happiness is experienced, no sane person would desire its cessation.

So long as there are people going to hell because they were victims of God's twisted domino trail, the blissfulness of heaven is a farce.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/21/2012 6:29:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 5:30:29 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 8/21/2012 4:52:37 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 8/21/2012 4:24:45 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:41:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
What are some arguments in favor of this incessant insanity? How would a rational God put a bunch of humans down on a planet ask them to believe in him, or else they would suffer? What was the point in that? Think about spending a Googolplex years in torment. Googolplex is a one followed by a Googol zeros. One Googol is presumed to be greater than the number of hydrogen atoms in the observable universe.

Now if the entire volume of the observable universe (taken to be 3 × 1080 m3) were packed solid with fine dust particles about 1.5 micrometres in size, then the number of different ways of ordering these particles would be approximately one Googolplex.

What about Graham's number? There are 64 layers that make up Graham's number, each inconceivably larger than the one before it. Graham's number cannot even be written using any sort of normal notation, such as exponents, or even exponents piled upon exponents.

"[Graham's number] is nothing but a finite positive integer, though a large one. It is composite and odd, rather than prime or even; it is perfectly divisible by three. Encoded in the decimal digits of that number, by almost any encoding scheme one cares to name, are all the works ever written by the human hand, and all the works that could have been written, at a hundred thousand words per minute, over the age of the Universe raised to its own power a thousand times. And yet, if we add up all the base-ten digits the result will be divisible by nine. The number is still a finite positive integer. It may contain Universes unimaginably larger than this one, but it is still only a number. It is a number so small that the algorithm to produce it can be held in a single human mind." -Eliezer Yudkowsky

And I have to ask- if, say, Gandhi suffered in hell for that many years- suppose that God happened to stop by for a chat. "Well, I know you saved many lives, ended colonialism in your homeland, and stayed true to your pacifistic principles to the end, but you didn't listen to that small nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to worship one particular God, so I guess you deserve this. Never mind that this happened Graham's number years ago. Oh, and it's not me doing this to you, your suffering is a result of your rejection of me and my son. Why can't you convert now? I- I don't know. Maybe it would be unfair since you would already know who to worship. Why don't I just reincarnate you or something wipe your memories? Good point. Never thought of that one. Wait, what is the point in this anyway? Why is it so important to believe in me in the first place? After all, I never came down to prove my existence directly to you guys. Speaking of which, if I provided pagans who had never heard of Christianity with a small guiding voice inside them telling them to follow Christ, how come there have never been any independent emergences of Christianity where it had never been found before? I'm confused."

That's EXACTLY why Gandhi is burning in Hell, He trusted in his good deeds. The VERY THING GOD DOESN'T WANT YOU TO DO, is think that your good enough to make it to Heaven. Despite all the good Gandhi did, his sins CONDEMN HIM TO HELL. The only thing God wants you to do is TRUST HIS SON TO SAVE YOU by dying for your sins. It's all about faith friend, that's the greatest test of all. That's why God doesn't show himself to man, he wants faith. And it's not blind faith either, for prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled such as the Jews getting their land back(Amos 9:14-15).

I'm sorry, but what is the point of giving man the ability to reason and demanding that he believe in God through 'faith?' Is it some sort of game to him? If you don't believe in trusting in your "own" good deeds, why send a sick person to the hospital? God will cure her! I can't imagine any just God allowing someone else to suffer for someone else's sins. We all are responsible for what we do.

The Fool: Knowledge is to be discovered never ever ever ever accepted!!

No, its not a game, he just wants to see who trusts Him completely.

The Fool: that is a Game. If god is all powerfull and does as he pleases then we would have no choice but to believe. But we do have the power to do resist, so he is not all powerfull nor can he do what he pleases.

Good deeds are fine, but thinking that they'll get you to Heaven WILL send you to Hell. God doesn't consider you good(Romans 3:10) He considers you a wicked sinner(Romans 3:23).

The Fool: Well he is mistaken, you should let him know. He ought to know better right.?

And sin is what separates you from Heaven(Romans 3:23) no matter what good you've done.

The Fool: I had a Virgin birth. I am squeaky clean. <(XD)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/21/2012 6:32:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:25:53 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/21/2012 6:23:18 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/21/2012 5:20:49 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/21/2012 4:22:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

Almost any human would not want a single person to got to hell and would be appalled at the thought of sending someone to prolonged torture.

Hmmmm, I guess we're more moral than God.


Perfect beings don't live morally, they live perfectly.

Anything a perfect being does, is without flaw, and is the perfect thing to do.

We are not perfect, and therefore have 'morals' to live by.

The Fool: Then he is not Good. So he doesn't exist

Morals were made for humans.

God is good, we are not.

The Fool: I am Good, and I know what The Good is in itelf. And there could be nothing more perfect then The Good in itself. So if God is The God in itself then I am okay.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/21/2012 6:40:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:21:34 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/21/2012 6:10:49 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/21/2012 6:03:24 PM, neutral wrote:
Well, as simply as I can state this, God doesn't put you in hell - you do.


Amen.

The Fool: That is nothing going on here.

If God is all power and does what he pleases then he does put you.
Hell doesn't have to exist if it didn't please him.
thus he also pleases of the suffering or people in hell.


Is lack of action and action?

If God removes himself from someone, is he responsible for what they do?

Justice pleases him; the form in which he carries it out doesn't make it any less just.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/21/2012 6:43:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 6:32:08 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/21/2012 6:25:53 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/21/2012 6:23:18 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 8/21/2012 5:20:49 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/21/2012 4:22:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:56:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lol, someone has no idea what Christianity is about.

I would agree, it sucks @ss.. but this makes it not true?

Almost any human would not want a single person to got to hell and would be appalled at the thought of sending someone to prolonged torture.

Hmmmm, I guess we're more moral than God.


Perfect beings don't live morally, they live perfectly.

Anything a perfect being does, is without flaw, and is the perfect thing to do.

We are not perfect, and therefore have 'morals' to live by.

The Fool: Then he is not Good. So he doesn't exist

Morals were made for humans.

God is good, we are not.

The Fool: I am Good, and I know what The Good is in itelf. And there could be nothing more perfect then The Good in itself. So if God is The God in itself then I am okay.


By man's standard you probably are. However, our standard doesn't really mean shite to God.

It seems you can only believe in an appealing God.

God isn't appealing, he's truth, and how does that saying go?

The truth hurts.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/21/2012 6:44:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 4:24:45 PM, acvavra wrote:
At 8/21/2012 3:41:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
What are some arguments in favor of this incessant insanity? How would a rational God put a bunch of humans down on a planet ask them to believe in him, or else they would suffer? What was the point in that? Think about spending a Googolplex years in torment. Googolplex is a one followed by a Googol zeros. One Googol is presumed to be greater than the number of hydrogen atoms in the observable universe.

Now if the entire volume of the observable universe (taken to be 3 × 1080 m3) were packed solid with fine dust particles about 1.5 micrometres in size, then the number of different ways of ordering these particles would be approximately one Googolplex.

What about Graham's number? There are 64 layers that make up Graham's number, each inconceivably larger than the one before it. Graham's number cannot even be written using any sort of normal notation, such as exponents, or even exponents piled upon exponents.

"[Graham's number] is nothing but a finite positive integer, though a large one. It is composite and odd, rather than prime or even; it is perfectly divisible by three. Encoded in the decimal digits of that number, by almost any encoding scheme one cares to name, are all the works ever written by the human hand, and all the works that could have been written, at a hundred thousand words per minute, over the age of the Universe raised to its own power a thousand times. And yet, if we add up all the base-ten digits the result will be divisible by nine. The number is still a finite positive integer. It may contain Universes unimaginably larger than this one, but it is still only a number. It is a number so small that the algorithm to produce it can be held in a single human mind." -Eliezer Yudkowsky

And I have to ask- if, say, Gandhi suffered in hell for that many years- suppose that God happened to stop by for a chat. "Well, I know you saved many lives, ended colonialism in your homeland, and stayed true to your pacifistic principles to the end, but you didn't listen to that small nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to worship one particular God, so I guess you deserve this. Never mind that this happened Graham's number years ago. Oh, and it's not me doing this to you, your suffering is a result of your rejection of me and my son. Why can't you convert now? I- I don't know. Maybe it would be unfair since you would already know who to worship. Why don't I just reincarnate you or something wipe your memories? Good point. Never thought of that one. Wait, what is the point in this anyway? Why is it so important to believe in me in the first place? After all, I never came down to prove my existence directly to you guys. Speaking of which, if I provided pagans who had never heard of Christianity with a small guiding voice inside them telling them to follow Christ, how come there have never been any independent emergences of Christianity where it had never been found before? I'm confused."

That's EXACTLY why Gandhi is burning in Hell,

The Fool: Go say that in India. LOL!!! Ghandi Sacrificed Himself For REAL. And he is mortal. He did much more then JESUS. Without have to be supernatural. He is a real savour. And he actually ExistEd For REAL>!.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL