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Christians and Romans 13

FREEDO
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8/23/2012 2:28:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. (NIV)

I'd like Christian commentary on this.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/23/2012 2:34:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:28:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. (NIV)

I'd like Christian commentary on this.

Speaks for itself. Are we refering to DDO or in life? We should also remember that the antichrist will be a authority also. So this dont mean all authorities are of God at heart but only in athority to fulfill God's will. They will be judged by thier works in authority.
TheAsylum
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/23/2012 2:36:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This passage addresses the responsibility of Christians to governing authorities. They are to "be subject to" (which generally means to obey, cf. 1 Pet. 3:5–6) the government because it has been ordained by God. Paul is speaking here of the general principle of submission to government. Several other passages show that God approves of Christians disobeying government, but only when obedience to government would mean disobeying God (see Ex. 1:17, 21; 1 Kings 18:4–16; Est. 4:16; Dan. 3:12–18; 6:10; Matt. 2:12; Acts 5:29; Heb. 11:23). There were even times when God raised up leaders to rebel against the government and deliver his people from evil rulers (Exodus 1–14; Judg. 2:16; Heb. 11:32–34).

We remember that Paul wrote this during the reign of the Roman Empire. It was no democracy, and no special friend to Christians - yet he still saw their legitimate authority. "Remember your Savior suffered under Pontius Pilate, one of the worst Roman governors Judea ever had; and Paul under Nero, the worst Roman Emperor. And neither our Lord nor His Apostle denied or reviled the ‘authority!'" (Newell)
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 2:37:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:34:17 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:28:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. (NIV)

I'd like Christian commentary on this.

Speaks for itself. Are we refering to DDO or in life? We should also remember that the antichrist will be a authority also. So this dont mean all authorities are of God at heart but only in athority to fulfill God's will. They will be judged by thier works in authority.

Obviously, it's a non-issue if we're talking about DDO. All people must submit to my glorious rule.

But as for real life...

The predictably question is: Is it moral to go along with the wishes of a government such as the Nazis or Stalin's Russia?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 2:38:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:36:35 PM, stubs wrote:
This passage addresses the responsibility of Christians to governing authorities. They are to "be subject to" (which generally means to obey, cf. 1 Pet. 3:5–6) the government because it has been ordained by God. Paul is speaking here of the general principle of submission to government. Several other passages show that God approves of Christians disobeying government, but only when obedience to government would mean disobeying God (see Ex. 1:17, 21; 1 Kings 18:4–16; Est. 4:16; Dan. 3:12–18; 6:10; Matt. 2:12; Acts 5:29; Heb. 11:23). There were even times when God raised up leaders to rebel against the government and deliver his people from evil rulers (Exodus 1–14; Judg. 2:16; Heb. 11:32–34).

We remember that Paul wrote this during the reign of the Roman Empire. It was no democracy, and no special friend to Christians - yet he still saw their legitimate authority. "Remember your Savior suffered under Pontius Pilate, one of the worst Roman governors Judea ever had; and Paul under Nero, the worst Roman Emperor. And neither our Lord nor His Apostle denied or reviled the ‘authority!'" (Newell)

Verse 2 clearly says "Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

Is that not a contradiction?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/23/2012 2:41:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:38:53 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Verse 2 clearly says "Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

Is that not a contradiction?

I guess it looks like one if you read only that and don't look at its context within the entire bible.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/23/2012 2:42:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:37:15 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:34:17 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:28:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. (NIV)

I'd like Christian commentary on this.

Speaks for itself. Are we refering to DDO or in life? We should also remember that the antichrist will be a authority also. So this dont mean all authorities are of God at heart but only in athority to fulfill God's will. They will be judged by thier works in authority.

Obviously, it's a non-issue if we're talking about DDO. All people must submit to my glorious rule.

But as for real life...

The predictably question is: Is it moral to go along with the wishes of a government such as the Nazis or Stalin's Russia?

Yes. Your heart is what counts. Who you submit your soul too.
TheAsylum
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 2:43:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:41:08 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:38:53 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Verse 2 clearly says "Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

Is that not a contradiction?

I guess it looks like one if you read only that and don't look at its context within the entire bible.

Sigh.
Pleeeeease do humor me.
What is the context that makes this not contradictory?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 2:45:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:42:20 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Yes. Your heart is what counts. Who you submit your soul too.

Alright. You're being consistent. That's good. Let's see if you keep it up.

Hypothetical: A government official demands that you kill an innocent person. Is it moral to follow this order?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
stubs
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8/23/2012 2:46:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:43:30 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Sigh.
Pleeeeease do humor me.
What is the context that makes this not contradictory?

Because, as I saw you posted before, does this verse mean we would have to submit to Nazi authority because God put that authority there? Paul wasn't saying we have to do absolutely everything the government says if it goes against what God says. Yeah in general we should respect governments authority, but Paul was clearly not in contradiction with other scripture. We just need to look at Romans in light of a first century Grecco-Roman world view.
ScottyDouglas
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8/23/2012 2:48:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:45:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:42:20 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Yes. Your heart is what counts. Who you submit your soul too.

Alright. You're being consistent. That's good. Let's see if you keep it up.

Hypothetical: A government official demands that you kill an innocent person. Is it moral to follow this order?

Again, Yes. You can go home and ask for repentance. God will forgive you.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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8/23/2012 2:49:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:45:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:42:20 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Yes. Your heart is what counts. Who you submit your soul too.

Alright. You're being consistent. That's good. Let's see if you keep it up.

Hypothetical: A government official demands that you kill an innocent person. Is it moral to follow this order?

This happens all the time with soldiers that go to battle and kill innocent people, though horrible, it serves a greater purpose. And if repentance is sought it will be given.
TheAsylum
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 2:51:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:46:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:43:30 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Sigh.
Pleeeeease do humor me.
What is the context that makes this not contradictory?

Because, as I saw you posted before, does this verse mean we would have to submit to Nazi authority because God put that authority there? Paul wasn't saying we have to do absolutely everything the government says if it goes against what God says. Yeah in general we should respect governments authority, but Paul was clearly not in contradiction with other scripture. We just need to look at Romans in light of a first century Grecco-Roman world view.

Correction: Paul clearly stated that we should follow the will of authorities because that IS the will of God. Implying that there will never be an instance in which you need to choose between the two.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 2:52:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:48:10 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Again, Yes. You can go home and ask for repentance. God will forgive you.

Alrighty then. Thanks for replying. Don't have anymore questions for you.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
ScottyDouglas
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8/23/2012 2:54:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:52:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:48:10 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Again, Yes. You can go home and ask for repentance. God will forgive you.

Alrighty then. Thanks for replying. Don't have anymore questions for you.

Please do...others need this wisdom.
TheAsylum
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/23/2012 2:55:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:51:40 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Correction: Paul clearly stated that we should follow the will of authorities because that IS the will of God. Implying that there will never be an instance in which you need to choose between the two.

Please tell me where it says, "The will of authorities is the will of God."
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 2:58:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:54:58 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Please do...others need this wisdom.

Well, you gave your perspective in a way that wasn't contradictory.

Someone who believes in the inerrancy of the bible either needs to completely come to grips with the passage or change their position, not pick and choose it's applications to make them feel comfortable with it.

However, I do still find your position detestable.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 2:59:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:55:56 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:51:40 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Correction: Paul clearly stated that we should follow the will of authorities because that IS the will of God. Implying that there will never be an instance in which you need to choose between the two.

Please tell me where it says, "The will of authorities is the will of God."

Please feel free to read the OP over and over and over again until it finally gets through to you.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/23/2012 3:01:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I beleive it's referring to religious leaders, not leaders of man-made governments. I find it difficult to beleive that Hitler, Ahmadinejad, Jung-Ill, Obama, etc. are God's chosen appointees. It doesn't seem logical that one who doesn't even beleive in the Christian God could be an agent for that God.
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 3:03:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 3:01:29 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I beleive it's referring to religious leaders, not leaders of man-made governments. I find it difficult to beleive that Hitler, Ahmadinejad, Jung-Ill, Obama, etc. are God's chosen appointees. It doesn't seem logical that one who doesn't even beleive in the Christian God could be an agent for that God.

It is referring to governments.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/23/2012 3:03:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 3:01:29 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I beleive it's referring to religious leaders, not leaders of man-made governments. I find it difficult to beleive that Hitler, Ahmadinejad, Jung-Ill, Obama, etc. are God's chosen appointees. It doesn't seem logical that one who doesn't even beleive in the Christian God could be an agent for that God.

We are all agents for God. The evil and righteous alike.
TheAsylum
stubs
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8/23/2012 3:05:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:59:37 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:55:56 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:51:40 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Correction: Paul clearly stated that we should follow the will of authorities because that IS the will of God. Implying that there will never be an instance in which you need to choose between the two.

Please tell me where it says, "The will of authorities is the will of God."

Please feel free to read the OP over and over and over again until it finally gets through to you.

"1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. (NIV)

I'd like Christian commentary on this."

That is the entire OP. Please bold the part that says "The will of authorities is the will of God.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/23/2012 3:06:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 2:59:37 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:55:56 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:51:40 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Correction: Paul clearly stated that we should follow the will of authorities because that IS the will of God. Implying that there will never be an instance in which you need to choose between the two.

Please tell me where it says, "The will of authorities is the will of God."

Please feel free to read the OP over and over and over again until it finally gets through to you.

I'm going to approach this first -- it literally appears to me that the verses are asserting that the only authorities that need to be followed are those that do God's will. These governing authorities are responsible for enforcing the law, right? Well, here's an explanation of the law, which comes right after those verses:

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet,"[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Clearly, one cannot say that the American government, for example, enforces any such law as this.

Adultery isn't even criminally illegal. It's a civil offense.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/23/2012 3:07:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 3:06:06 PM, Ren wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:59:37 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:55:56 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:51:40 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Correction: Paul clearly stated that we should follow the will of authorities because that IS the will of God. Implying that there will never be an instance in which you need to choose between the two.

Please tell me where it says, "The will of authorities is the will of God."

Please feel free to read the OP over and over and over again until it finally gets through to you.

I'm going to approach this first -- it literally appears to me that the verses are asserting that the only authorities that need to be followed are those that do God's will. These governing authorities are responsible for enforcing the law, right? Well, here's an explanation of the law, which comes right after those verses:

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet,"[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Clearly, one cannot say that the American government, for example, enforces any such law as this.

Adultery isn't even criminally illegal. It's a civil offense.

So we should rebel against our government?
TheAsylum
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/23/2012 3:07:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"For there is no authority except that which God has established" literally qualifies the statement by stating that only leaders established by God are valid.

Not that God establishes all leaders. God commanded the destruction of several leaders throughout the Bible.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/23/2012 3:08:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 3:07:28 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/23/2012 3:06:06 PM, Ren wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:59:37 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:55:56 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:51:40 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Correction: Paul clearly stated that we should follow the will of authorities because that IS the will of God. Implying that there will never be an instance in which you need to choose between the two.

Please tell me where it says, "The will of authorities is the will of God."

Please feel free to read the OP over and over and over again until it finally gets through to you.

I'm going to approach this first -- it literally appears to me that the verses are asserting that the only authorities that need to be followed are those that do God's will. These governing authorities are responsible for enforcing the law, right? Well, here's an explanation of the law, which comes right after those verses:

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet,"[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Clearly, one cannot say that the American government, for example, enforces any such law as this.

Adultery isn't even criminally illegal. It's a civil offense.

So we should rebel against our government?

If we don't believe that their underlying intention is in love, I believe that it's saying that we shouldn't acknowledge their authority.

Rebellion is taking that quite a few steps further.
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 3:08:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 3:05:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:59:37 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:55:56 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/23/2012 2:51:40 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Correction: Paul clearly stated that we should follow the will of authorities because that IS the will of God. Implying that there will never be an instance in which you need to choose between the two.

Please tell me where it says, "The will of authorities is the will of God."

Please feel free to read the OP over and over and over again until it finally gets through to you.

"1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. (NIV)

I'd like Christian commentary on this."

That is the entire OP. Please bold the part that says "The will of authorities is the will of God.

Are you sitting down? Ready? Go ahead and look. WHOA.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/23/2012 3:11:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 3:07:36 PM, Ren wrote:
"For there is no authority except that which God has established" literally qualifies the statement by stating that only leaders established by God are valid.

Not that God establishes all leaders. God commanded the destruction of several leaders throughout the Bible.

So God did not use these governments and authorities for judgement on others? And then destroy them also? God uses all to fulfill his will and yes armgeddon and the antichrist is God's will.
TheAsylum
FREEDO
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8/23/2012 3:11:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/23/2012 3:07:36 PM, Ren wrote:
"For there is no authority except that which God has established" literally qualifies the statement by stating that only leaders established by God are valid.

Not that God establishes all leaders. God commanded the destruction of several leaders throughout the Bible.

Haha. That is reeeeeeeally stretching it. But ok.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord