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The Burden of Christianity

Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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8/24/2012 8:49:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
DDO user Stephen_Hawkins has nailed it in his most recent blogpost http://reasonalliance.blogspot.com...

If you ever start attempting to debate against or with the religious, you shall always come across a rough phrase which essentially stops the debate in its tracks, and causes huge problems for any intelligent debate. The phrase is one that appears in many debates, by many debaters, because of firstly the value of the phrase and secondly the time it takes to respond to it. William Lane Craig says this to begin most debates: "My opponent must not only refute all [five] of my arguments for Christianity, but then provide arguments for his Atheism". The youtube apologist shockofgod infamously states: "What proof and evidence do you have that atheism is accurate and correct?" Timothy Keller in Reasons for God states: "[e]very doubt...is basd on a leap of faith.", and even the completely apathetic has faith. They have: "the very modern belief that the existence of God is a matter of indifference unless it intersects with my emotional needs." We need to start establishing where the burden of proof (yes, that horrid word) lies, or we can never progress in intelligent discussion.


This is an excellent article and I am so glad that Stephen_Hawkins has came aboard and has agreed to blog with me. I greatly appreciate you.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/24/2012 11:15:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 8:49:05 AM, Microsuck wrote:

Its like you TWO- Mircosuck and Stephen do not comprehind.

Christians owe you no reasons and no expanation.

Explain your on beliefs to each other and leave Christians to believe what they want. I understand you just cant fathem my 'FAITH' and it leaves you with a sour taste in your mouth. Is that a Christian problem?

No, it isnt at all. Christians as well dont need to bother in seeking explanations from atheist cause quite frankly who cares but them.

You better believe the Christain has much reason for thier belief and that doesnt need to be ran by you. Neither does a athiests reason need to be ran by Christians.
TheAsylum
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/24/2012 11:27:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 11:15:56 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
My opinion speaks for all Christians everywhere

M'kay.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/24/2012 11:32:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 11:15:56 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/24/2012 8:49:05 AM, Microsuck wrote:

Its like you TWO- Mircosuck and Stephen do not comprehind.

Christians owe you no reasons and no expanation.

Explain your on beliefs to each other and leave Christians to believe what they want. I understand you just cant fathem my 'FAITH' and it leaves you with a sour taste in your mouth. Is that a Christian problem?

No, it isnt at all. Christians as well dont need to bother in seeking explanations from atheist cause quite frankly who cares but them.

You better believe the Christain has much reason for thier belief and that doesnt need to be ran by you. Neither does a athiests reason need to be ran by Christians.

I don't recall jesus or the early christians taking this kind of view; they debated non-christians quite frequently.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/24/2012 11:36:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 11:27:02 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/24/2012 11:15:56 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
My opinion speaks for all Christians everywhere

M'kay.

Oh, just for reference, that's not for you to disagree with. That's just the way things are. The sky is blue, the grass is green, and you think your opinion speaks for every Christian everywhere.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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8/24/2012 1:04:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Anything more substantial than telling us that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the bible is God's word and expecting us to believe you for no other reason than that you said it was true so it must be.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/24/2012 1:36:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:04:21 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Anything more substantial than telling us that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the bible is God's word and expecting us to believe you for no other reason than that you said it was true so it must be.

Most Christians on this site do not believe Jesus is the son of God and the bible is true just because someone else said it was true.
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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8/24/2012 1:54:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:36:15 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:04:21 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Anything more substantial than telling us that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the bible is God's word and expecting us to believe you for no other reason than that you said it was true so it must be.

Most Christians on this site do not believe Jesus is the son of God and the bible is true just because someone else said it was true.

Really?
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/24/2012 2:01:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:54:48 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:36:15 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:04:21 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Anything more substantial than telling us that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the bible is God's word and expecting us to believe you for no other reason than that you said it was true so it must be.

Most Christians on this site do not believe Jesus is the son of God and the bible is true just because someone else said it was true.

Really?

Haha read the whole sentence bruh, not just the first part and stop haha
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
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8/24/2012 2:05:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 2:01:18 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:54:48 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:36:15 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:04:21 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Anything more substantial than telling us that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the bible is God's word and expecting us to believe you for no other reason than that you said it was true so it must be.

Most Christians on this site do not believe Jesus is the son of God and the bible is true just because someone else said it was true.

Really?

Haha read the whole sentence bruh, not just the first part and stop haha

I did read the whole sentence I just misunderstood. I thought you were saying two different things.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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8/24/2012 2:10:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Truthfully, we do have a certain BOP of our own. Debunking the arguments for a certain religion doesn't prove there isn't a God, it just shows that this religion is wrong and returns the point to neutral.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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8/24/2012 2:28:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Why don't you ask God? I'm sure he'd know.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/24/2012 2:30:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:04:21 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Anything more substantial than telling us that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the bible is God's word and expecting us to believe you for no other reason than that you said it was true so it must be.

That excludes you =[
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/24/2012 2:31:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 1:36:15 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:04:21 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Anything more substantial than telling us that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the bible is God's word and expecting us to believe you for no other reason than that you said it was true so it must be.

Most Christians on this site do not believe Jesus is the son of God and the bible is true just because someone else said it was true.

Im assuming your one and Im second.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/24/2012 2:32:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 2:28:03 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Why don't you ask God? I'm sure he'd know.

You should ask him...when you get a chance.
TheAsylum
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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8/24/2012 2:47:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 2:32:53 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/24/2012 2:28:03 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Why don't you ask God? I'm sure he'd know.

You should ask him...when you get a chance.

The thing is, there isn't any one thing that can be done to convince most atheists of the Christian God. The fact of the matter is that the bible fails so thoroughly in terms of history, science and even internal consistency that divine revelation itself is more likely to convince me I'm insane than that God exists.

Also, God isn't returning my calls. Perhaps he's still trying to figure it out himself, hmm?
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/24/2012 2:50:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The thing is, there isn't any one thing that can be done to convince most atheists of the Christian God. The fact of the matter is that the bible fails so thoroughly in terms of history, science and even internal consistency that divine revelation itself is more likely to convince me I'm insane than that God exists.

So Sad you believe that when it simply isnt true =[

Also, God isn't returning my calls. Perhaps he's still trying to figure it out himself, hmm?

You have been dialing the wrong number.
TheAsylum
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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8/24/2012 6:12:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 2:50:47 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The thing is, there isn't any one thing that can be done to convince most atheists of the Christian God. The fact of the matter is that the bible fails so thoroughly in terms of history, science and even internal consistency that divine revelation itself is more likely to convince me I'm insane than that God exists.

So Sad you believe that when it simply isnt true =[

If you'd like, I'd gladly debate you on any one of these topics. It would have to wait a week since I'm going on vacation tomorrow, but if you're interested I'd be more than willing to make my case.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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8/24/2012 6:39:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I find arguments about the existence of God much more entertaining than arguments about who has the burden of proof when it comes to arguments about the existence of God.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/24/2012 7:12:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Religion is based on there being proof of a God.

Atheism is based on there being a lack of proof for a God.

Atheists don't need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on a lack of arguments.

Religious people need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on arguments.

/end discussion.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
RyuuKyuzo
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8/24/2012 7:42:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 7:12:19 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Religion is based on there being proof of a God.

Atheism is based on there being a lack of proof for a God.

Atheists don't need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on a lack of arguments.

Religious people need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on arguments.

/end discussion.

Well hold on there now, just because there isn't any evidence for God doesn't mean there isn't a God. The default position is agnosticism. Atheism may be a rational choice, it may be a reasonable choice, but it might also be completely wrong and for that reason we can't act as though it's the default choice.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/24/2012 8:16:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 7:12:19 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Religion is based on there being proof of a God.

I have never argued, nor beleived, that there is "proof" of a God. I do beleive that there is "evidence for God", though. Those are 2 different things. That evidence gives me reasoned faith that God exists.

Atheism is based on there being a lack of proof for a God.

So you start out the argument asking for something that we admit we don't have. You can't disprove our evidence, so you ask for something that only God can provide you with.

Atheists don't need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on a lack of arguments.

Correct, "lack" of arguments. However, if your scientific evidence refuted our claims, or proved, or even showed it likely that God doesn't exist, then you'd have plenty of arguments to use.

Religious people need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on arguments.

Why?? Many atheists just say nuh-uh, it means something else, and continue saying there's no evidence. If that's a satisfactory position for them then why is it our job to change it??

I enjoy arguing with people who will actually defend their position, rather than copping out and denying that they have burden for anything.

/end discussion.

Now that the voice of reason has spoken you can end the discussion if you like. :)
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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8/24/2012 9:01:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 7:42:14 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 8/24/2012 7:12:19 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Religion is based on there being proof of a God.

Atheism is based on there being a lack of proof for a God.

Atheists don't need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on a lack of arguments.

Religious people need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on arguments.

/end discussion.

Well hold on there now, just because there isn't any evidence for God doesn't mean there isn't a God.

The Fool: Yes it does't because lack of evident is the reason for the lack of Belief.

The default position is agnosticism.

The Fool: The defaut position is IGNORANCE. An atheist claim to be ignorance of any proof.

Atheism may be a rational choice, it may be a reasonable choice, but it might also be completely wrong and for that reason we can't act as though it's the default choice.

The Fool: out of what probability may it be wrong!!! Atheist would change thier mind tommorow if there was Proof. I am looking forward to you arguments.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/24/2012 9:42:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 8:16:27 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 7:12:19 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Religion is based on there being proof of a God.

I have never argued, nor beleived, that there is "proof" of a God. I do beleive that there is "evidence for God", though. Those are 2 different things. That evidence gives me reasoned faith that God exists.

Evidence and proof are synonyms, especially in the context that I was using them in.

Atheism is based on there being a lack of proof for a God.

So you start out the argument asking for something that we admit we don't have. You can't disprove our evidence, so you ask for something that only God can provide you with.

Lol wut? I'm yet to hear the 'evidence' that I can't disprove. As for what atheism is based on, I am correct. Atheism isn't based on evidence against God, because there is little (though the POE is one example). Atheism is based on a lack of belief in God.

Atheists don't need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on a lack of arguments.

Correct, "lack" of arguments. However, if your scientific evidence refuted our claims, or proved, or even showed it likely that God doesn't exist, then you'd have plenty of arguments to use.

Your sentences have no coherence. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Religious people need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on arguments.

Why?? Many atheists just say nuh-uh, it means something else, and continue saying there's no evidence. If that's a satisfactory position for them then why is it our job to change it??

That's the whole purpose of debate- one side agrees and the other doesn't. However, by there being something to disagree upon, you are bringing forth evidence (or what you perceive as evidence) for the topic. Sure atheists dismiss evidence for God, but theists dismiss probability and chance. It's a two way street.

I enjoy arguing with people who will actually defend their position, rather than copping out and denying that they have burden for anything.

That's because what I'm arguing for doesn't have a BOP. Lol!

/end discussion.

Now that the voice of reason has spoken you can end the discussion if you like. :)

k.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/24/2012 9:48:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 6:12:48 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 8/24/2012 2:50:47 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The thing is, there isn't any one thing that can be done to convince most atheists of the Christian God. The fact of the matter is that the bible fails so thoroughly in terms of history, science and even internal consistency that divine revelation itself is more likely to convince me I'm insane than that God exists.

So Sad you believe that when it simply isnt true =[

If you'd like, I'd gladly debate you on any one of these topics. It would have to wait a week since I'm going on vacation tomorrow, but if you're interested I'd be more than willing to make my case.

Sadly, your view is of this world and I dont care about that.
TheAsylum
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/24/2012 11:28:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 2:31:24 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:36:15 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:04:21 PM, Frederick53 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 1:01:33 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Tell me, What can a Christian (ANY CHRISTIAN), do to make you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible?

Anything more substantial than telling us that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the bible is God's word and expecting us to believe you for no other reason than that you said it was true so it must be.

Most Christians on this site do not believe Jesus is the son of God and the bible is true just because someone else said it was true.

Im assuming your one and Im second.

huh?
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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8/25/2012 12:17:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 9:48:06 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/24/2012 6:12:48 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 8/24/2012 2:50:47 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The thing is, there isn't any one thing that can be done to convince most atheists of the Christian God. The fact of the matter is that the bible fails so thoroughly in terms of history, science and even internal consistency that divine revelation itself is more likely to convince me I'm insane than that God exists.

So Sad you believe that when it simply isnt true =[

If you'd like, I'd gladly debate you on any one of these topics. It would have to wait a week since I'm going on vacation tomorrow, but if you're interested I'd be more than willing to make my case.

Sadly, your view is of this world and I dont care about that.

And I suppose you're an expert on other worlds, hmm?
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/25/2012 1:15:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/24/2012 9:42:43 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/24/2012 8:16:27 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/24/2012 7:12:19 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Religion is based on there being proof of a God.

I have never argued, nor beleived, that there is "proof" of a God. I do beleive that there is "evidence for God", though. Those are 2 different things. That evidence gives me reasoned faith that God exists.

Evidence and proof are synonyms, especially in the context that I was using them in.

Evidence is simply something that supports your position. You can have evidence for something, but still be wrong about your conclusion. Evidence is not conclusive proof.

Atheism is based on there being a lack of proof for a God.

So you start out the argument asking for something that we admit we don't have. You can't disprove our evidence, so you ask for something that only God can provide you with.

Lol wut? I'm yet to hear the 'evidence' that I can't disprove.

Refer to our pm discussion. You can "question" anything, but your chances of actually "disproving" something is really very small.

As for what atheism is based on, I am correct. Atheism isn't based on evidence against God, because there is little (though the POE is one example). Atheism is based on a lack of belief in God.

The PoE is a PoS.

Atheists don't need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on a lack of arguments.

Correct, "lack" of arguments. However, if your scientific evidence refuted our claims, or proved, or even showed it likely that God doesn't exist, then you'd have plenty of arguments to use.

Your sentences have no coherence. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Keep trying, I have faith that you can figure it out.

Religious people need to propose arguments, because their belief is based on arguments.

Why?? Many atheists just say nuh-uh, it means something else, and continue saying there's no evidence. If that's a satisfactory position for them then why is it our job to change it??

That's the whole purpose of debate- one side agrees and the other doesn't. However, by there being something to disagree upon, you are bringing forth evidence (or what you perceive as evidence) for the topic. Sure atheists dismiss evidence for God, but theists dismiss probability and chance. It's a two way street.

I enjoy arguing with people who will actually defend their position, rather than copping out and denying that they have burden for anything.

That's because what I'm arguing for doesn't have a BOP. Lol!

That depends on the subject of discussion. If we're just talking about "Does God exist??", the BoP is on the theist. But if, during the course of that discussion you make a claim, then you do take on a BoP. That doesn't reduce the BoP that the theist has, but the atheists can't just claim whatever he wants and not be expected to back it up.

/end discussion.

Now that the voice of reason has spoken you can end the discussion if you like. :)

k.