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I can't help it

phantom
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8/25/2012 10:32:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I can't help but lack belief in Christianity. Why do I deserve punishment for it? I'd like to believe, I really would but I can't. So Christians (excluding universalists), tell me why God wants to punish me for something I don't really have a choice about. I would choose to believe in Christianity if I had a choice but the thing is, belief is not really about choice, otherwise I would just choose to believe in things that make me happy. So I can't choose Jesus Christ "the only way to salvation". Doesn't seem very far to me. Where's the justice in it? Do skeptics just have no place in heaven? Or is skepticism itself a sin?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
johnnyboy54
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8/25/2012 10:43:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I can't speak for other denominations, but the position of the Catholic church is that those who are ignorant of the belief in God, through no fault of their own, will not necessarily be damned to hell by God. It depends on the nature of one's unbelief.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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8/25/2012 10:54:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/25/2012 10:43:41 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I can't speak for other denominations, but the position of the Catholic church is that those who are ignorant of the belief in God, through no fault of their own, will not necessarily be damned to hell by God. It depends on the nature of one's unbelief.

So, you should damage your brain through hard drug use to get into one particular branch of a particular religion's afterlife through the ignorance incurred by cognitive atrophy.

If you're looking for fairness, justice, or sanity in Christianity, it is either extremely poor or non-existant.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/25/2012 11:33:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Since God already knows your fate, praying or belonging to any specific religion or lack thereof is useless. Hell, everybody can become an atheist and nothing will change.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
johnnyboy54
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8/26/2012 2:05:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/25/2012 11:33:40 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Since God already knows your fate, praying or belonging to any specific religion or lack thereof is useless. Hell, everybody can become an atheist and nothing will change.

???

God has knowledge of our fates, meaning he knows what actions he will take before we are even in existence. However that does not mean he determines our fate.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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8/26/2012 2:12:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/25/2012 10:54:59 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 8/25/2012 10:43:41 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I can't speak for other denominations, but the position of the Catholic church is that those who are ignorant of the belief in God, through no fault of their own, will not necessarily be damned to hell by God. It depends on the nature of one's unbelief.

So, you should damage your brain through hard drug use to get into one particular branch of a particular religion's afterlife through the ignorance incurred by cognitive atrophy.

So you think all religious belief is cognitively harmful then? Some of the most intelligent people ever were very religious people.

If you're looking for fairness, justice, or sanity in Christianity, it is either extremely poor or non-existant.

By what standard do you judge Christianity as a whole to be unjust, unfair, and insane?
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/26/2012 2:32:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 2:12:24 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 10:54:59 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 8/25/2012 10:43:41 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I can't speak for other denominations, but the position of the Catholic church is that those who are ignorant of the belief in God, through no fault of their own, will not necessarily be damned to hell by God. It depends on the nature of one's unbelief.

So, you should damage your brain through hard drug use to get into one particular branch of a particular religion's afterlife through the ignorance incurred by cognitive atrophy.

Or just proclaim that he had desinged you with flaws that make possible you as who you are.. Blaming the beasts of your creation from also a position of hypocrisy is just simply wrong to begin with. Anyone who's read the Island of Dr Monroe will understand why that is.

So you think all religious belief is cognitively harmful then? Some of the most intelligent people ever were very religious people.

He made no such argument.. And clearly not all religions are harmful or religious beliefs are harmful.. Some are however..

If you're looking for fairness, justice, or sanity in Christianity, it is either extremely poor or non-existant.

Agreed

By what standard do you judge Christianity as a whole to be unjust, unfair, and insane?

The bible itself, and the fact it's taken from other preexisting religions ect.. As far as the insane..., anything that worships something that mass drowns life in pure utter genocide because it proclaims it's sorry for ever having made them is "insane" by definition.. God love life, that's why he made it murder itself to reproduce and survive and why he slaughters it and blames it all as if he himself has no burden of blames for the flaws in it all to which he himself made. It's nonsensical and that is how they like it.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/26/2012 1:51:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/25/2012 10:43:41 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I can't speak for other denominations, but the position of the Catholic church is that those who are ignorant of the belief in God, through no fault of their own, will not necessarily be damned to hell by God. It depends on the nature of one's unbelief.

Out of curiosity, what would they believe happened to me? I can't go to heaven since according to scripture, only Jesus leads you there. Am I simply annihilated?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Lordknukle
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8/26/2012 2:29:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 2:05:32 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 11:33:40 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Since God already knows your fate, praying or belonging to any specific religion or lack thereof is useless. Hell, everybody can become an atheist and nothing will change.

???

God has knowledge of our fates, meaning he knows what actions he will take before we are even in existence. However that does not mean he determines our fate.

If God is infinite and omnipotent, then that means that he is ultimately in charge of our fates.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/26/2012 3:24:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 2:05:32 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 11:33:40 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Since God already knows your fate, praying or belonging to any specific religion or lack thereof is useless. Hell, everybody can become an atheist and nothing will change.

???

God has knowledge of our fates, meaning he knows what actions he will take before we are even in existence. However that does not mean he determines our fate.

If he knows our fate before hand, that means that our lives will follow an unalterable path. There is nothing we can do that he didn't know we were going to do even before we were born. This leads purely to determinism because we cannot deviate from his prediction.

We also have to address HOW God knows our future actions without any causal chain to upon which to follow. You can predict that a car is about to fall off the cliff because you've assessed the speed, distance, and acceleration of the vehicle and it shows no sign of stopping soon. If you had no knowledge of any of those variables then it would be impossible to predict whether the car will fall or not. If there are no antecedent necessary causes of human behavior (which freewill supposes), then God has no means of reaching his conclusions.

Freewill necessitates unpredictability and spontaneity. If God knows what choices you'll make billions-infinity years before you make it, then how can you NOT make that choice?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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8/26/2012 4:01:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 1:51:55 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/25/2012 10:43:41 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I can't speak for other denominations, but the position of the Catholic church is that those who are ignorant of the belief in God, through no fault of their own, will not necessarily be damned to hell by God. It depends on the nature of one's unbelief.

Out of curiosity, what would they believe happened to me? I can't go to heaven since according to scripture, only Jesus leads you there. Am I simply annihilated?

"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts ultimately accusing or defending them."

In other words, those who sinned (murder for example) but did not know of Christ will perish. Those who have sinned but did know of Christ will be judged accordingly. Those who have not heard of Christ but do actions which are in accordance with Christ will be judged accordingly.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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8/26/2012 4:53:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 3:24:13 PM, 000ike wrote
Freewill necessitates unpredictability and spontaneity. If God knows what choices you'll make billions-infinity years before you make it, then how can you NOT make that choice?

I think the standard defense against this is that while God does always know what choices you'll make, you'd still make those choices independent of his prior knowledge of them - he's not forcing or preventing anything, he just lets things play themselves out - so his knowledge is irrelevant to one's free will.

However this defense is problematic considering the Bible and/or the Quran where God does directly involve himself in history for hundreds of years, forcing and preventing human events. But personally, though I don't think any religion is "divinely inspired", I think this defense might hold water when used to defend a more hidden God. I'm just not sure the knowledge of such a being would impact human freewill.

Though you are right about omniscience being ridiculous and impossible - most theists really don't consider what it means to say there is a being in existence somewhere that knows absolutely everything that ever happened everywhere. It's a preposterous notion when you think about it and can be only defended exclusively on faith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/26/2012 5:05:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/25/2012 10:32:41 PM, phantom wrote:
I can't help but lack belief in Christianity. Why do I deserve punishment for it? I'd like to believe, I really would but I can't. So Christians (excluding universalists), tell me why God wants to punish me for something I don't really have a choice about. I would choose to believe in Christianity if I had a choice but the thing is, belief is not really about choice, otherwise I would just choose to believe in things that make me happy. So I can't choose Jesus Christ "the only way to salvation". Doesn't seem very far to me. Where's the justice in it? Do skeptics just have no place in heaven? Or is skepticism itself a sin?


I don't think you're gonna find much comfort in my answer, nor do I think you'll find it particularly satisfying, but if we all had the choice-- none of us would choose Christianity.

Now, I'm labeled a Calvinist; Part of the Reformed Chruch. So my particular denomination is in the minority. I believe this is, because it is very hard to believe! To tell a person (including myself) that you had no part in your salvation, or that no one can even acknowledge Christ unless God chooses them too, can be very upsetting.. as you kinda seem frustrated now.

I'm in a very similar perdicament; I can't stop believing. I wish all of my beliefs weren't true (you might have heard me say this before). I know about 4 dimes (females), that would be so down to let me jump their bones right now.. and as far as God is concerned, in my heart I've already done it.. but I am too convicted of the actions, or even thoughts. I just want it to go away.

In my younger life, i did a lot of things in direct opposition to God (i still do from time to time), and some of those things were subtle, maybe not noticable to any other person.. but they were known to me, and i knew-- they were known to God. None the less, he always makes me feel loved by him. Even though i reject him time and time again.

My point is, that we're all skeptics, and most of us actually have NO choice.. So if i were you, I'd find out which type of person I was.. A person who cannot accept Christ, or a person who cannot accept the post-modern smoke screen of know it all, emperical, self-proven truth.

The choice... isn't yours (lol)
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/26/2012 5:11:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 2:29:59 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/26/2012 2:05:32 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 11:33:40 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Since God already knows your fate, praying or belonging to any specific religion or lack thereof is useless. Hell, everybody can become an atheist and nothing will change.

???

God has knowledge of our fates, meaning he knows what actions he will take before we are even in existence. However that does not mean he determines our fate.

If God is infinite and omnipotent, then that means that he is ultimately in charge of our fates.

Nor could the god do anything at all but know.. Hence, even it's infinite future would be known and determined. Existence is then determined entirely at every level.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/26/2012 6:15:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 5:11:09 PM, TheJackel wrote:
At 8/26/2012 2:29:59 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/26/2012 2:05:32 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 11:33:40 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Since God already knows your fate, praying or belonging to any specific religion or lack thereof is useless. Hell, everybody can become an atheist and nothing will change.

???

God has knowledge of our fates, meaning he knows what actions he will take before we are even in existence. However that does not mean he determines our fate.

If God is infinite and omnipotent, then that means that he is ultimately in charge of our fates.

Nor could the god do anything at all but know.. Hence, even it's infinite future would be known and determined. Existence is then determined entirely at every level.

Of course he could do other things than know- that's the definition of omnipotent: the ability to do anything.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/26/2012 6:15:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 5:05:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 10:32:41 PM, phantom wrote:
I can't help but lack belief in Christianity. Why do I deserve punishment for it? I'd like to believe, I really would but I can't. So Christians (excluding universalists), tell me why God wants to punish me for something I don't really have a choice about. I would choose to believe in Christianity if I had a choice but the thing is, belief is not really about choice, otherwise I would just choose to believe in things that make me happy. So I can't choose Jesus Christ "the only way to salvation". Doesn't seem very far to me. Where's the justice in it? Do skeptics just have no place in heaven? Or is skepticism itself a sin?


I don't think you're gonna find much comfort in my answer, nor do I think you'll find it particularly satisfying, but if we all had the choice-- none of us would choose Christianity.

Now, I'm labeled a Calvinist; Part of the Reformed Chruch. So my particular denomination is in the minority. I believe this is, because it is very hard to believe! To tell a person (including myself) that you had no part in your salvation, or that no one can even acknowledge Christ unless God chooses them too, can be very upsetting.. as you kinda seem frustrated now.

I'm in a very similar perdicament; I can't stop believing. I wish all of my beliefs weren't true (you might have heard me say this before). I know about 4 dimes (females), that would be so down to let me jump their bones right now.. and as far as God is concerned, in my heart I've already done it.. but I am too convicted of the actions, or even thoughts. I just want it to go away.

In my younger life, i did a lot of things in direct opposition to God (i still do from time to time), and some of those things were subtle, maybe not noticable to any other person.. but they were known to me, and i knew-- they were known to God. None the less, he always makes me feel loved by him. Even though i reject him time and time again.

My point is, that we're all skeptics, and most of us actually have NO choice.. So if i were you, I'd find out which type of person I was.. A person who cannot accept Christ, or a person who cannot accept the post-modern smoke screen of know it all, emperical, self-proven truth.

The choice... isn't yours (lol)

You don't want your beliefs because of the restrictions to pleasure they entail. That's immoral and irrational. I can't respect that and it isn't the slightest significant factor to why I care about what I believe.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/26/2012 6:18:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've never thought the argument that God's omniscience alleviates free-will to hold much water at all. All God would have to do is be able to transcend time so that he can experience the future and the past. That does nothing to get rid of free-will.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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8/26/2012 7:19:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 6:18:22 PM, phantom wrote:
I've never thought the argument that God's omniscience alleviates free-will to hold much water at all. All God would have to do is be able to transcend time so that he can experience the future and the past. That does nothing to get rid of free-will.

Despite the fact that I am an atheist I am inclined to agree with this. At least when applied to an invisible, covert deity as the one most religious people today believe exists.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/26/2012 8:07:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 6:15:40 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/26/2012 5:05:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 10:32:41 PM, phantom wrote:
I can't help but lack belief in Christianity. Why do I deserve punishment for it? I'd like to believe, I really would but I can't. So Christians (excluding universalists), tell me why God wants to punish me for something I don't really have a choice about. I would choose to believe in Christianity if I had a choice but the thing is, belief is not really about choice, otherwise I would just choose to believe in things that make me happy. So I can't choose Jesus Christ "the only way to salvation". Doesn't seem very far to me. Where's the justice in it? Do skeptics just have no place in heaven? Or is skepticism itself a sin?


I don't think you're gonna find much comfort in my answer, nor do I think you'll find it particularly satisfying, but if we all had the choice-- none of us would choose Christianity.

Now, I'm labeled a Calvinist; Part of the Reformed Chruch. So my particular denomination is in the minority. I believe this is, because it is very hard to believe! To tell a person (including myself) that you had no part in your salvation, or that no one can even acknowledge Christ unless God chooses them too, can be very upsetting.. as you kinda seem frustrated now.

I'm in a very similar perdicament; I can't stop believing. I wish all of my beliefs weren't true (you might have heard me say this before). I know about 4 dimes (females), that would be so down to let me jump their bones right now.. and as far as God is concerned, in my heart I've already done it.. but I am too convicted of the actions, or even thoughts. I just want it to go away.

In my younger life, i did a lot of things in direct opposition to God (i still do from time to time), and some of those things were subtle, maybe not noticable to any other person.. but they were known to me, and i knew-- they were known to God. None the less, he always makes me feel loved by him. Even though i reject him time and time again.

My point is, that we're all skeptics, and most of us actually have NO choice.. So if i were you, I'd find out which type of person I was.. A person who cannot accept Christ, or a person who cannot accept the post-modern smoke screen of know it all, emperical, self-proven truth.

The choice... isn't yours (lol)

You don't want your beliefs because of the restrictions to pleasure they entail. That's immoral and irrational. I can't respect that and it isn't the slightest significant factor to why I care about what I believe.


That was simply an example of struggle, that i figured you might relate too. It is immoral but only because God says so (My God). You seem to have missed the entire point of my post, smart guy.

But now that you've responded in such a d*ck way, let me just say.. You have no choice. If you don't have any choice, and you don't believe, you are screwed.

If you are looking for reasons to believe, you are screwed.

If you are looking to rationalize Christianity before believing it, you're screwed.

If you aren't certain at any point in your life, that Christ sacrificed his life for you, you're screwed.

Kick and scream all you want about how unjust it is, with your lame and typically human understanding of what justice is. :)
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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8/26/2012 8:26:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 5:05:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

I don't think you're gonna find much comfort in my answer, nor do I think you'll find it particularly satisfying, but if we all had the choice-- none of us would choose Christianity.

Now, I'm labeled a Calvinist; Part of the Reformed Chruch. So my particular denomination is in the minority. I believe this is, because it is very hard to believe! To tell a person (including myself) that you had no part in your salvation, or that no one can even acknowledge Christ unless God chooses them too, can be very upsetting.. as you kinda seem frustrated now.

I'm in a very similar perdicament; I can't stop believing. I wish all of my beliefs weren't true (you might have heard me say this before). I know about 4 dimes (females), that would be so down to let me jump their bones right now.. and as far as God is concerned, in my heart I've already done it.. but I am too convicted of the actions, or even thoughts. I just want it to go away.

In my younger life, i did a lot of things in direct opposition to God (i still do from time to time), and some of those things were subtle, maybe not noticable to any other person.. but they were known to me, and i knew-- they were known to God. None the less, he always makes me feel loved by him. Even though i reject him time and time again.

My point is, that we're all skeptics, and most of us actually have NO choice.. So if i were you, I'd find out which type of person I was.. A person who cannot accept Christ, or a person who cannot accept the post-modern smoke screen of know it all, emperical, self-proven truth.

The choice... isn't yours (lol)

Not if your picture is actually of you...

Haha just playin wit you man
TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/26/2012 8:39:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 6:15:36 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/26/2012 5:11:09 PM, TheJackel wrote:
At 8/26/2012 2:29:59 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/26/2012 2:05:32 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 11:33:40 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Since God already knows your fate, praying or belonging to any specific religion or lack thereof is useless. Hell, everybody can become an atheist and nothing will change.

???

God has knowledge of our fates, meaning he knows what actions he will take before we are even in existence. However that does not mean he determines our fate.

If God is infinite and omnipotent, then that means that he is ultimately in charge of our fates.

Nor could the god do anything at all but know.. Hence, even it's infinite future would be known and determined. Existence is then determined entirely at every level.

Of course he could do other things than know- that's the definition of omnipotent: the ability to do anything.

It would invalidate it's omnipotence. In fact, saying it could create a new path and information is admitting it can't be omniscient, or omnipotent.. You have then an infinite egress where it could never make itself omniscient if it can always change the order of things, or create new information.. It's trying to have it's cake and eat it too... Feel free to visit this wiki page on omniscience:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It goes very well into the subject.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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8/26/2012 8:40:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 3:24:13 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/26/2012 2:05:32 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 11:33:40 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Since God already knows your fate, praying or belonging to any specific religion or lack thereof is useless. Hell, everybody can become an atheist and nothing will change.

???

God has knowledge of our fates, meaning he knows what actions he will take before we are even in existence. However that does not mean he determines our fate.

If he knows our fate before hand, that means that our lives will follow an unalterable path. There is nothing we can do that he didn't know we were going to do even before we were born. This leads purely to determinism because we cannot deviate from his prediction.

I don't see how it follows. I don't see how a being having knowledge that something will occur necessitates that the being determined the course of action that will occur.

Is it not possible that God would know exactly what actions and choices he would make in our lives, yet not determining what actions and choices we will take?

We also have to address HOW God knows our future actions without any causal chain to upon which to follow. You can predict that a car is about to fall off the cliff because you've assessed the speed, distance, and acceleration of the vehicle and it shows no sign of stopping soon. If you had no knowledge of any of those variables then it would be impossible to predict whether the car will fall or not. If there are no antecedent necessary causes of human behavior (which freewill supposes), then God has no means of reaching his conclusions.

This does not matter. God is not a material being with some set point in space and time. He transcends space and time. Using human means of knowledge and perception is useless when we are talking about a spiritual deity.

Freewill necessitates unpredictability and spontaneity. If God knows what choices you'll make billions-infinity years before you make it, then how can you NOT make that choice?

But you can. The option is never closed to you.

If I know someone so well, so completely, that I know exactly what action they would take in a certain situation, does that remove any effort of choice on their part? Did I determine their choice?
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/26/2012 8:50:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 8:40:40 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:

This does not matter. God is not a material being with some set point in space and time. He transcends space and time. Using human means of knowledge and perception is useless when we are talking about a spiritual deity.

But logic dictates that knowledge of things does not simply come from nothing. Knowledge must come from something. If God knows what we will do, how does he have that knowledge? Is he following a causal chain of events, is he using clues. He can't just simply "know".

Or....If God does in fact simply "know" without anything to point to from where he derived his knowledge, that means that he defies logic...but a God that defies logic is logically incoherent. We can't even say that he exists because he could exist and not exist at the same time.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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8/26/2012 8:52:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 8:26:19 PM, stubs wrote:
At 8/26/2012 5:05:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

I don't think you're gonna find much comfort in my answer, nor do I think you'll find it particularly satisfying, but if we all had the choice-- none of us would choose Christianity.

Now, I'm labeled a Calvinist; Part of the Reformed Chruch. So my particular denomination is in the minority. I believe this is, because it is very hard to believe! To tell a person (including myself) that you had no part in your salvation, or that no one can even acknowledge Christ unless God chooses them too, can be very upsetting.. as you kinda seem frustrated now.

I'm in a very similar perdicament; I can't stop believing. I wish all of my beliefs weren't true (you might have heard me say this before). I know about 4 dimes (females), that would be so down to let me jump their bones right now.. and as far as God is concerned, in my heart I've already done it.. but I am too convicted of the actions, or even thoughts. I just want it to go away.

In my younger life, i did a lot of things in direct opposition to God (i still do from time to time), and some of those things were subtle, maybe not noticable to any other person.. but they were known to me, and i knew-- they were known to God. None the less, he always makes me feel loved by him. Even though i reject him time and time again.

My point is, that we're all skeptics, and most of us actually have NO choice.. So if i were you, I'd find out which type of person I was.. A person who cannot accept Christ, or a person who cannot accept the post-modern smoke screen of know it all, emperical, self-proven truth.

The choice... isn't yours (lol)

Not if your picture is actually of you...

Haha just playin wit you man


Lmao, touche!
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/26/2012 10:19:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 8:07:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:15:40 PM, phantom wrote:
At 8/26/2012 5:05:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 8/25/2012 10:32:41 PM, phantom wrote:
I can't help but lack belief in Christianity. Why do I deserve punishment for it? I'd like to believe, I really would but I can't. So Christians (excluding universalists), tell me why God wants to punish me for something I don't really have a choice about. I would choose to believe in Christianity if I had a choice but the thing is, belief is not really about choice, otherwise I would just choose to believe in things that make me happy. So I can't choose Jesus Christ "the only way to salvation". Doesn't seem very far to me. Where's the justice in it? Do skeptics just have no place in heaven? Or is skepticism itself a sin?


I don't think you're gonna find much comfort in my answer, nor do I think you'll find it particularly satisfying, but if we all had the choice-- none of us would choose Christianity.

Now, I'm labeled a Calvinist; Part of the Reformed Chruch. So my particular denomination is in the minority. I believe this is, because it is very hard to believe! To tell a person (including myself) that you had no part in your salvation, or that no one can even acknowledge Christ unless God chooses them too, can be very upsetting.. as you kinda seem frustrated now.

I'm in a very similar perdicament; I can't stop believing. I wish all of my beliefs weren't true (you might have heard me say this before). I know about 4 dimes (females), that would be so down to let me jump their bones right now.. and as far as God is concerned, in my heart I've already done it.. but I am too convicted of the actions, or even thoughts. I just want it to go away.

In my younger life, i did a lot of things in direct opposition to God (i still do from time to time), and some of those things were subtle, maybe not noticable to any other person.. but they were known to me, and i knew-- they were known to God. None the less, he always makes me feel loved by him. Even though i reject him time and time again.

My point is, that we're all skeptics, and most of us actually have NO choice.. So if i were you, I'd find out which type of person I was.. A person who cannot accept Christ, or a person who cannot accept the post-modern smoke screen of know it all, emperical, self-proven truth.

The choice... isn't yours (lol)

You don't want your beliefs because of the restrictions to pleasure they entail. That's immoral and irrational. I can't respect that and it isn't the slightest significant factor to why I care about what I believe.


That was simply an example of struggle, that i figured you might relate too. It is immoral but only because God says so (My God). You seem to have missed the entire point of my post, smart guy.

No, I didn't respond to the main point of your post because I've already argued it with you and I have no interest for a second round.

But now that you've responded in such a d*ck way, let me just say.. You have no choice. If you don't have any choice, and you don't believe, you are screwed.

If you are looking for reasons to believe, you are screwed.

If you are looking to rationalize Christianity before believing it, you're screwed.

I guess I'm screwed. :(

If you aren't certain at any point in your life, that Christ sacrificed his life for you, you're screwed.

I was certain at one point. So am I unscrewed? :P

Kick and scream all you want about how unjust it is, with your lame and typically human understanding of what justice is. :)

This is why I don't like discussing this with you. It's like arguing with solipsists, hard to refute but nothing much backing their opinion. I have a sense of justice. We are logical creatures. I don't care if you say it's flawed. What evidence do you?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/26/2012 11:48:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: Christ didnt sacrifice anything he is supernatural.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL