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Is this analogy valid?

MilitaryAtheist
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8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?
medic0506
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8/26/2012 7:05:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I see what you're doing here.

The prototype is the problem. But is it a design problem, is it a flaw in the way the workers built it, is it a flaw in quality of materials used?? We can't determine exactly who is at fault with the given info.
MilitaryAtheist
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8/26/2012 7:53:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 7:05:01 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I see what you're doing here.

The prototype is the problem. But is it a design problem, is it a flaw in the way the workers built it, is it a flaw in quality of materials used?? We can't determine exactly who is at fault with the given info.

It would be quality issue. Not really the 'parts' but the car in general that causes it to crash.
Illegalcombatant
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8/26/2012 7:55:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

Using the established legal test of determining negligence is the question of reasonable foreseeability. If it was reasonable foreseeable that this error was going to cause death then yeah, you got a lawsuit coming your way based on the charge of negligence, in this case negligence resulting in death.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
tvellalott
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8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.
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Maikuru
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8/26/2012 8:08:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.

I did a spit take.
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medic0506
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8/26/2012 8:31:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.

Bullfeathers. God gave them free will to build the car correctly. But satan used his weapon of greed to make the company force the prototype to be built too quickly, focusing on profit margin rather than safety. The people had free will to slow it down and do it right, but their greed and desire to keep their job forced them to cut corners.

Moral of the story: Let satan run the conveyor belt, and people die. Do it God's way and everyone will get to where they're going safely. :)
tvellalott
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8/26/2012 8:33:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 8:31:16 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.

Bullfeathers. God gave them free will to build the car correctly. But satan used his weapon of greed to make the company force the prototype to be built too quickly, focusing on profit margin rather than safety. The people had free will to slow it down and do it right, but their greed and desire to keep their job forced them to cut corners.

Moral of the story: Let satan run the conveyor belt, and people die. Do it God's way and everyone will get to where they're going safely. :)

God is the first cause, thus everything is his fault.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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medic0506
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8/26/2012 8:40:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 8:33:00 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:31:16 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.

Bullfeathers. God gave them free will to build the car correctly. But satan used his weapon of greed to make the company force the prototype to be built too quickly, focusing on profit margin rather than safety. The people had free will to slow it down and do it right, but their greed and desire to keep their job forced them to cut corners.

Moral of the story: Let satan run the conveyor belt, and people die. Do it God's way and everyone will get to where they're going safely. :)

God is the first cause, thus everything is his fault.

I'll agree to the extent that God is responsible for the existence of what is at fault, but the fault really falls on those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to.
tvellalott
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8/26/2012 8:47:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 8:40:38 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:33:00 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:31:16 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.

Bullfeathers. God gave them free will to build the car correctly. But satan used his weapon of greed to make the company force the prototype to be built too quickly, focusing on profit margin rather than safety. The people had free will to slow it down and do it right, but their greed and desire to keep their job forced them to cut corners.

Moral of the story: Let satan run the conveyor belt, and people die. Do it God's way and everyone will get to where they're going safely. :)

God is the first cause, thus everything is his fault.

I'll agree to the extent that God is responsible for the existence of what is at fault, but the fault really falls on those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to.

Doesn't God count amongst those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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medic0506
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8/26/2012 11:33:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 8:47:24 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:40:38 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:33:00 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:31:16 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.

Bullfeathers. God gave them free will to build the car correctly. But satan used his weapon of greed to make the company force the prototype to be built too quickly, focusing on profit margin rather than safety. The people had free will to slow it down and do it right, but their greed and desire to keep their job forced them to cut corners.

Moral of the story: Let satan run the conveyor belt, and people die. Do it God's way and everyone will get to where they're going safely. :)

God is the first cause, thus everything is his fault.

I'll agree to the extent that God is responsible for the existence of what is at fault, but the fault really falls on those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to.

Doesn't God count amongst those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to?

You're assuming that He didn't do it right, just because man made bad choices. How is giving man free will, allowing him to learn for himself, and make his own decisions not the right thing??
tvellalott
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8/27/2012 12:57:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 11:33:36 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:47:24 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:40:38 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:33:00 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:31:16 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.

Bullfeathers. God gave them free will to build the car correctly. But satan used his weapon of greed to make the company force the prototype to be built too quickly, focusing on profit margin rather than safety. The people had free will to slow it down and do it right, but their greed and desire to keep their job forced them to cut corners.

Moral of the story: Let satan run the conveyor belt, and people die. Do it God's way and everyone will get to where they're going safely. :)

God is the first cause, thus everything is his fault.

I'll agree to the extent that God is responsible for the existence of what is at fault, but the fault really falls on those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to.

Doesn't God count amongst those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to?

You're assuming that He didn't do it right, just because man made bad choices. How is giving man free will, allowing him to learn for himself, and make his own decisions not the right thing??

Cause he could have made the entire earth fertile and resource rich (inb4 we have all we need, derp) and not have created the diseases and parasites which cause untold suffering and death. Neither of those things have anything to do with mans choices... We didn't choose for the continent of Australia to be 80% desert, or for most of the worlds water to be undrinkable.
Also, Satan tricked man into having free will (with the snake and the tree of knowledge and all that jazz), didn't he?

Alas, I still think the whole free will thing is bogus. The freedom/security argument applies to the state, not to a supposed perfect God. If I could experience eternal bliss, I'd happily give up free will.
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TheJackel
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8/27/2012 2:05:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 8:47:24 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:40:38 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:33:00 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:31:16 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.

Bullfeathers. God gave them free will to build the car correctly. But satan used his weapon of greed to make the company force the prototype to be built too quickly, focusing on profit margin rather than safety. The people had free will to slow it down and do it right, but their greed and desire to keep their job forced them to cut corners.

Moral of the story: Let satan run the conveyor belt, and people die. Do it God's way and everyone will get to where they're going safely. :)

God is the first cause, thus everything is his fault.

I'll agree to the extent that God is responsible for the existence of what is at fault, but the fault really falls on those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to.

Doesn't God count amongst those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to?

This would be like asking a propane tank to ignore it's faults once enough pressure exceeds it's limits to not explode.. Free will would mean you are not subject to said faults, and we all know that everyone has their limits, and everyone's brain isn't exactly the same. IF you design something to have a free will, then that is a fault in the design if you expect it not to do anything against your rules, especially from a position of hypocrisy. It's essentially blaming the beasts of your creations for the wrongs they commit knowing it was inevitable to happen.. And doing so from a position of hypocrisy... Monkey see monkey do, and not such a great role model to commit mass genocide... Makes serial killers seem like armatures when you compare them to such a concept of GOD. And the message of "thou shall not kill" rubs off as:

Don't try this at home kids, this is done by a professional!
Stephen_Hawkins
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8/27/2012 4:41:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If a car is made under the supervision of a car industry, to the car industry's specification, and it is horribly dangerous to the point of severe negligence, with dangers in the car that are just gratuitious e.g. swapping the driver's seat for a boa constrictor, then the car industry is at fault.

If they use faulty materials, then the car industry is at fault. If a frenchman comes in and sabotages the conveyor belt so he gets more profit and the industry doesn't stop him or fix the problems, all the while letting the cars out, then the industry is at fault. If the industry uses free will to make shitty cars, the car industry is at fault.

If the car industry lacks the power to magic things better (for lack of a better term), then it is the car industry's fault but there's no real problem in that, as we can't ask for much more than them trying. If the car industry is evil as an arseweasel on crack (which is pretty evil indeed), then it is still the car industry's fault.

Just a thought, can some Christian actually lay out a case where the analogy is correct which blames the car industry? It seems quite straight forwards tbh.
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ScottyDouglas
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8/27/2012 4:52:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

The designer and Manufacturing plant for not testing before distributing the car.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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8/27/2012 5:01:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 4:52:03 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

The designer and Manufacturing plant for not testing before distributing the car.

Though if we must use this as an anology for God and His creation then we must attribute that God unlike men's(designer&manifacturers) is perfect and so his creations when they are created.
This anology is best:
The car is made perfect in all its ways, drivable, safe and sound. Then the driver slams into a brick wall and just for further measure runs it off a bridge. Then goes to his garage and fixs only to outside apperance so He can sale it again. It drives but cant turn properly at high speed and has faulty breaks(more so at high speeds). The new driver takes it out on the highway and dies. Whos to blame?
TheAsylum
tBoonePickens
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8/27/2012 11:12:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

1) George Bush. It seems that everything is his fault one way or another.
2) Greedy Corporations.
3) Wall Street.

Wait a second...what analogy?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/27/2012 11:31:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 12:57:13 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 11:33:36 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:47:24 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:40:38 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:33:00 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 8:31:16 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/26/2012 7:58:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

It's Gods fault.

Bullfeathers. God gave them free will to build the car correctly. But satan used his weapon of greed to make the company force the prototype to be built too quickly, focusing on profit margin rather than safety. The people had free will to slow it down and do it right, but their greed and desire to keep their job forced them to cut corners.

Moral of the story: Let satan run the conveyor belt, and people die. Do it God's way and everyone will get to where they're going safely. :)

God is the first cause, thus everything is his fault.

I'll agree to the extent that God is responsible for the existence of what is at fault, but the fault really falls on those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to.

Doesn't God count amongst those who had the opportunity to do it right but chose not to?

You're assuming that He didn't do it right, just because man made bad choices. How is giving man free will, allowing him to learn for himself, and make his own decisions not the right thing??

Cause he could have made the entire earth fertile and resource rich (inb4 we have all we need, derp) and not have created the diseases and parasites which cause untold suffering and death. Neither of those things have anything to do with mans choices...

This could lead to a long discussion, but I say that if we had done things God's way, we would have what we need. We're gluttons, we're greedy, and think of how many we could feed just on what we waste in a year. If we followed God's instruction for family, there wouldn't be nearly as many of us anyway, thus more to go around.

As for the other, yes God could have made the world perfectly safe with no strife, but can you imagine the kind of people that kind of world would produce?? They wouldn't be worth wasting oxygen on. There would be none that are good, because they wouldn't even know what bad looks like. They wouldn't have any reason to have compassion, or love, for anyone but themselves.

Very often the proliferation of those diseases and parasites, is made worse by our exploitation.

We didn't choose for the continent of Australia to be 80% desert, or for most of the worlds water to be undrinkable.

True, but many throughout the ages have survived in deserts.

Also, Satan tricked man into having free will (with the snake and the tree of knowledge and all that jazz), didn't he?

No, free will was always present. Lucifer was once an angel, but had the free will to turn against God, and did so.

Alas, I still think the whole free will thing is bogus. The freedom/security argument applies to the state, not to a supposed perfect God.

What freedom/security argument?? I'm not aware of that one.

If I could experience eternal bliss, I'd happily give up free will.

Without free will, you wouldn't have the choice of whether to love God, or not love Him. Love isn't love unless it's given freely and by choice.

Why give up one choice, when both things are yours for the taking?? You can have both free will and eternal happiness.
Stephen_Hawkins
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8/27/2012 11:42:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 5:01:12 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/27/2012 4:52:03 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

The designer and Manufacturing plant for not testing before distributing the car.

Though if we must use this as an anology for God and His creation then we must attribute that God unlike men's(designer&manifacturers) is perfect and so his creations when they are created.
This anology is best:
The car is made perfect in all its ways, drivable, safe and sound. Then the driver slams into a brick wall and just for further measure runs it off a bridge. Then goes to his garage and fixs only to outside apperance so He can sale it again. It drives but cant turn properly at high speed and has faulty breaks(more so at high speeds). The new driver takes it out on the highway and dies. Whos to blame?

If the car was perfect in every way, still the designer, because the fact it can be damaged like that is a problem with the design. If you made a car out of paper, and someone drove it out in the rain, no matter whose fault it is that the water destroyed it, it's still due to the design it doesn't work. Similarly, I'm sure with infinite resources and power I could make a car bounce off of walls and the ground quite easily. We don't say that "when a car crashes, the car has a fault" because cars have fallible designers with other things to think about and are limited. If I got a car from an omnipotent being that was perfect in every way, it should teleport me through walls.

Interestingly enough, cars are being developed now so that if you're about to crash it warns you and applies the breaks automatically. If this becomes mainstream, then could you say that the car is not designed well? Or that the design has a fault? I probably would.
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TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/27/2012 11:46:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 5:01:12 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/27/2012 4:52:03 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

The designer and Manufacturing plant for not testing before distributing the car.

Though if we must use this as an anology for God and His creation then we must attribute that God unlike men's(designer&manifacturers) is perfect and so his creations when they are created.
This anology is best:
The car is made perfect in all its ways, drivable, safe and sound. Then the driver slams into a brick wall and just for further measure runs it off a bridge. Then goes to his garage and fixs only to outside apperance so He can sale it again. It drives but cant turn properly at high speed and has faulty breaks(more so at high speeds). The new driver takes it out on the highway and dies. Whos to blame?

A Perfect car would never have the possibility of damage or running off a bridge... You're also confusing the analogy because we aren't talking about the car and the driver.. In your analogy, the car isn't the subject, it's the imperfect driver you tried to claim was perfect to whom ran the car into a brick wall. A perfect driver wouldn't do that. Claiming something you build is perfect when it clearly is not and then expecting it to be perfect is illogical, delusion, and very poor foresight. Take the tree of knowledge for example..

God tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree.. Well, wtf is the tree doing there then? If they did not know good and evil before eating the forbidden fruit, the would be like children. Telling a child not to do something when they are full of curiosity is mistake number 1.. Giving them free will is mistake number 2. Putting the tree in their reach is mistake number 3. It's like blaming a child because you put a bottle of bleach on the floor, or a book of matches while telling them not to touch them. By all definition, this deity is either incredibly stupid, a poor parent, or one sadistic individual.

If people were made perfect, they would be perfect maximum beings.. And even then it would be debatable on "perfect".. And man you can't have humans be GOD like if you want to be worshiped as a GOD. Hence, just as in the bible, the GOD punishes them for becoming like him, or them if you notice the polytheistic editing of genesis 3.
ScottyDouglas
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8/27/2012 11:47:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 11:42:46 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/27/2012 5:01:12 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/27/2012 4:52:03 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

The designer and Manufacturing plant for not testing before distributing the car.

Though if we must use this as an anology for God and His creation then we must attribute that God unlike men's(designer&manifacturers) is perfect and so his creations when they are created.
This anology is best:
The car is made perfect in all its ways, drivable, safe and sound. Then the driver slams into a brick wall and just for further measure runs it off a bridge. Then goes to his garage and fixs only to outside apperance so He can sale it again. It drives but cant turn properly at high speed and has faulty breaks(more so at high speeds). The new driver takes it out on the highway and dies. Whos to blame?

If the car was perfect in every way, still the designer, because the fact it can be damaged like that is a problem with the design. If you made a car out of paper, and someone drove it out in the rain, no matter whose fault it is that the water destroyed it, it's still due to the design it doesn't work. Similarly, I'm sure with infinite resources and power I could make a car bounce off of walls and the ground quite easily. We don't say that "when a car crashes, the car has a fault" because cars have fallible designers with other things to think about and are limited. If I got a car from an omnipotent being that was perfect in every way, it should teleport me through walls.

Interestingly enough, cars are being developed now so that if you're about to crash it warns you and applies the breaks automatically. If this becomes mainstream, then could you say that the car is not designed well? Or that the design has a fault? I probably would.

SMH....though well thought simply not thought well enough. You can attribute the car anyway you like. It can be made perfect and still destroyed by the person who owned regardless if the creator of it made it in oerfect condition. Are you trying for excuses instead of facing reality?
TheAsylum
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/27/2012 12:02:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 11:47:01 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/27/2012 11:42:46 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/27/2012 5:01:12 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/27/2012 4:52:03 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

The designer and Manufacturing plant for not testing before distributing the car.

Though if we must use this as an anology for God and His creation then we must attribute that God unlike men's(designer&manifacturers) is perfect and so his creations when they are created.
This anology is best:
The car is made perfect in all its ways, drivable, safe and sound. Then the driver slams into a brick wall and just for further measure runs it off a bridge. Then goes to his garage and fixs only to outside apperance so He can sale it again. It drives but cant turn properly at high speed and has faulty breaks(more so at high speeds). The new driver takes it out on the highway and dies. Whos to blame?

If the car was perfect in every way, still the designer, because the fact it can be damaged like that is a problem with the design. If you made a car out of paper, and someone drove it out in the rain, no matter whose fault it is that the water destroyed it, it's still due to the design it doesn't work. Similarly, I'm sure with infinite resources and power I could make a car bounce off of walls and the ground quite easily. We don't say that "when a car crashes, the car has a fault" because cars have fallible designers with other things to think about and are limited. If I got a car from an omnipotent being that was perfect in every way, it should teleport me through walls.

Interestingly enough, cars are being developed now so that if you're about to crash it warns you and applies the breaks automatically. If this becomes mainstream, then could you say that the car is not designed well? Or that the design has a fault? I probably would.

SMH....though well thought simply not thought well enough. You can attribute the car anyway you like. It can be made perfect and still destroyed by the person who owned regardless if the creator of it made it in oerfect condition. Are you trying for excuses instead of facing reality?

No it can't. If I made a car that was perfect that was destroyed by me driving it out into rain, then the car isn't perfect. Perfection includes invulnerability, simply put. I thought I did make that clear: a car that can be destroyed is not perfect.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/27/2012 12:08:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 11:47:01 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/27/2012 11:42:46 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/27/2012 5:01:12 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/27/2012 4:52:03 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/26/2012 6:54:00 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
A car manufacturing plant is starting on building a new kind of car. The plant's crew are skilled. The prototype car they get has error. They begin making cars based on prototype. The cars fail resulting in avoidable death. Who is to blame?

The designer and Manufacturing plant for not testing before distributing the car.

Though if we must use this as an anology for God and His creation then we must attribute that God unlike men's(designer&manifacturers) is perfect and so his creations when they are created.
This anology is best:
The car is made perfect in all its ways, drivable, safe and sound. Then the driver slams into a brick wall and just for further measure runs it off a bridge. Then goes to his garage and fixs only to outside apperance so He can sale it again. It drives but cant turn properly at high speed and has faulty breaks(more so at high speeds). The new driver takes it out on the highway and dies. Whos to blame?

If the car was perfect in every way, still the designer, because the fact it can be damaged like that is a problem with the design. If you made a car out of paper, and someone drove it out in the rain, no matter whose fault it is that the water destroyed it, it's still due to the design it doesn't work. Similarly, I'm sure with infinite resources and power I could make a car bounce off of walls and the ground quite easily. We don't say that "when a car crashes, the car has a fault" because cars have fallible designers with other things to think about and are limited. If I got a car from an omnipotent being that was perfect in every way, it should teleport me through walls.

Interestingly enough, cars are being developed now so that if you're about to crash it warns you and applies the breaks automatically. If this becomes mainstream, then could you say that the car is not designed well? Or that the design has a fault? I probably would.

SMH....though well thought simply not thought well enough. You can attribute the car anyway you like. It can be made perfect and still destroyed by the person who owned regardless if the creator of it made it in oerfect condition. Are you trying for excuses instead of facing reality?

You forget he's using the car as a place card for a person.. You're not understanding the analogy.. Lets try one more time..Forget the car.. Lets take an all supernatural perfect engineer who makes tires for cars. He's all knowing, omnipotent, and perfect. He builds an imperfect tire knowing its flaws, calls it perfect, and then this tire on someones car blows out because of it's imperfections he knew about.. It gets a family of four killed.. This tire, representing, in terms of analogy, the human species, gets a family of four killed. who do you blame? Because when I read your post, it sounds like you would try to place blame on the driver instead of the faulty tire..Kinda like blaming a bomb for killing people, or even the victims of the bomb instead of the bomb maker.

And even if you waned to blame the driver, it still ends up with the same problem. Remember, you believe a perfect all knowing being made everything.. So either everything is it's fault for the imperfections of what he made, or this entity didn't make anything you claim it did.
TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/27/2012 12:14:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I guess a more simple way to look at it is in terms of the butterfly effect. So if you want to use said entity as source origin to everything, it's ultimately responsible for everything that follows regardless of supposed "free will"..
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/27/2012 12:29:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sure if we can just add characteristics to a car that a car doesnt have. In a reality there are cars which are attributed with such a thing a perfect properly functioning car. Do these cars have the attributes you describe? No, but therefore when created they are perfect by industry standard.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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8/27/2012 12:35:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You forget he's using the car as a place card for a person.. You're not understanding the analogy.. Lets try one more time..Forget the car.. Lets take an all supernatural perfect engineer who makes tires for cars. He's all knowing, omnipotent, and perfect. He builds an imperfect tire knowing its flaws, calls it perfect, and then this tire on someones car blows out because of it's imperfections he knew about.. It gets a family of four killed.. This tire, representing, in terms of analogy, the human species, gets a family of four killed. who do you blame? Because when I read your post, it sounds like you would try to place blame on the driver instead of the faulty tire..Kinda like blaming a bomb for killing people, or even the victims of the bomb instead of the bomb maker.

And even if you waned to blame the driver, it still ends up with the same problem. Remember, you believe a perfect all knowing being made everything.. So either everything is it's fault for the imperfections of what he made, or this entity didn't make anything you claim it did.

Though true that the creator gave a way for the creation to not be perfect nevertheless the creation made itself imperfect by a chioce of its own. If it hadnt made that choice, it would have been perfect forever, but thats not what happened. Just like when you tell a child not to do something, You dont explain why not to really, but you said not too. Is it the childs parent fault for the child doing what they were told not too?
TheAsylum
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/27/2012 1:30:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/27/2012 12:29:48 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Sure if we can just add characteristics to a car that a car doesnt have. In a reality there are cars which are attributed with such a thing a perfect properly functioning car. Do these cars have the attributes you describe? No, but therefore when created they are perfect by industry standard.

A car isn't perfect by industry standards: it surpasses industry standards. And being perfect by industry standards means it fulfils their test. Again, if I made a car that cannot get wet or it'd be destroyed that would be "perfect by industry standards" but certainly not perfect - or even good - by anyone's actual standards.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/27/2012 10:36:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

Though true that the creator gave a way for the creation to not be perfect nevertheless the creation made itself imperfect by a chioce of its own.

This is again trying to shift the blame.. You can't do that. If you believe your GOD pushed the GO button, everything that transpires is of his own doing regardless of what transpires. Any flaws in the system are guaranteed to manifest, and those flaws are of his own design. And getting upset that it doesn't go as you had hoped, or planned, well, that is his own fault and ignorance. It's like suddenly after Adam and eve get cast out of the Garden of Eden, the deity then suddenly decides to protect the tree of knowledge and keep it away from them with flaming swords.. And of course we all know how silly that is.. :/

If it hadnt made that choice, it would have been perfect forever, but thats not what happened.

A perfect creation wouldn't be capable of making mistakes.. Saying it creates something perfect and then it flaws makes no sense.

Just like when you tell a child not to do something, You dont explain why not to really, but you said not too. Is it the childs parent fault for the child doing what they were told not too?

If you have a child that has no concept or right and wrong, it's generally to young to comprehend or really consider it.. If you put a bottle of bleach there, tell it not to drink it, what are the chances it will? Pretty damn good.. You can't blame an child who has no understanding of the world to be magically obedient.. Curiosity over rules "don't do it" more often than not.. Especially in a childs mind. What's worse, the bible states the Adam and Eve didn't know good or evil, and then deity still blames them for not listening as if they were supposed to know it wouldn't be good or bad to eat the apple.. The whole story of Adam and Eve is an incoherent mess and really an example of poor parenting..

And what the story is really about, is that back then, it was considered a sin to seek knowledge outside the obedience of the lord or the religion. And it's because knowledge is the religions biggest threat. Knowledge of other religions, knowledge of where their own religion actually came from and how, and knowledge and ideas that disprove it, and show it in any other light other than pure conformity.. Basically it's considered evil to seek an education, and poisonous to the religion. It's why you see it in that format where an educator is substituted with "talking snake". The snake is a place card for an educator, someone trying to teach them knowledge outside the conformity of the religion, or curiosity itself.

The poor were kept uneducated for a reason, and it's because the uneducated are easy to manipulate and control. And that is why these sort of stories exist..