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Devout Mormon

Nik
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9/12/2009 3:18:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
One of my old friends has just told me today that he's decided to become a Mormon. Now I'm not sure how serious he was, but lets assume hes now a fully converted Mormon.

Basically my question is, how do I stop him from being a Mormon? I have no problems with him being a Christian, that's completely fine. Its just something about Mormons, its practically a cult.

The sad thing is, he's actually a very Intelligent guy, got almost top marks in his IB tests, could easily get a place in Oxbridge, but for some reason he's some how been brain washed into believing Christ visited America and decided that the new Jerusalem should be built there. Among other weird ideas.

For one I think its quite tragic, the power of indoctrination has a whole new meaning to me now, I know realise that even very intelligent reasonable people can be convinced of the most absurd and outlandish beliefs.

I guess many mormons think the same of us. :(
"If you could tell the world but one truth, I could convince it of a thousand lies"
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/12/2009 3:54:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Do you really feel it's your duty to stop him o.O?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
I-am-a-panda
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9/12/2009 4:43:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It's simple. You become a Mormon, shows him all the logical fallacies, he goes back to whatever the hell he was, and so do you.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/12/2009 4:59:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I have to agree with Kleptin here; do you really feel a need to stop him?

But, in the interest of adding something useful, I would simply talk to him about it seriously - just ask him questions, and point out the fallacies and silliness that the Mormon faith is based on. But you need to do it subtley; for example, you ask how those Golden Plates could really have existed if Joseph Smith (I think thats his name) never showed it to anyone else - ask it like a real question as well, to make him think over his response.

I don't know, that is how I would tackle it.
Nik
Posts: 552
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9/12/2009 5:14:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
True, In a way its none of my business what faith he follows. But, he is a very good friend, and as a friend I feel its my duty to try and stop him from wasting his life on mormonisim.

If your friend is experimenting with heroin, you'd feel the need to tell him to stop. Perhaps a more extreme example, but I hope you know what I mean.
"If you could tell the world but one truth, I could convince it of a thousand lies"
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/12/2009 5:17:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 5:14:23 PM, Nik wrote:
True, In a way its none of my business what faith he follows. But, he is a very good friend, and as a friend I feel its my duty to try and stop him from wasting his life on mormonisim.

If your friend is experimenting with heroin, you'd feel the need to tell him to stop. Perhaps a more extreme example, but I hope you know what I mean.

It is completely understandable Nik, and I commend you for caring that much about the welfare of your friend - but don't push it too hard. He can make his own choices; I would just offer the chance for him to actually think it through before he commits himself completely.
Nik
Posts: 552
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9/12/2009 5:22:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 4:59:41 PM, Volkov wrote:
I have to agree with Kleptin here; do you really feel a need to stop him?

But, in the interest of adding something useful, I would simply talk to him about it seriously - just ask him questions, and point out the fallacies and silliness that the Mormon faith is based on. But you need to do it subtley; for example, you ask how those Golden Plates could really have existed if Joseph Smith (I think thats his name) never showed it to anyone else - ask it like a real question as well, to make him think over his response.

I don't know, that is how I would tackle it.
Thats what I thought, but I have the feeling that Mormonism is one of those religions that encourage blind faith, and for good reason too.
"If you could tell the world but one truth, I could convince it of a thousand lies"
Volkov
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9/12/2009 5:25:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 5:22:47 PM, Nik wrote:
Thats what I thought, but I have the feeling that Mormonism is one of those religions that encourage blind faith, and for good reason too.

The way I see it, those that aren't completely rooted in the religion will always have the outsider's perspective; and when they have that, its easy for them to see the inconsistencies.

There is always a good chance your friend won't fall for it.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/12/2009 9:28:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 3:18:58 PM, Nik wrote:
One of my old friends has just told me today that he's decided to become a Mormon. Now I'm not sure how serious he was, but lets assume hes now a fully converted Mormon.

Basically my question is, how do I stop him from being a Mormon? I have no problems with him being a Christian, that's completely fine. Its just something about Mormons, its practically a cult.

The sad thing is, he's actually a very Intelligent guy, got almost top marks in his IB tests, could easily get a place in Oxbridge, but for some reason he's some how been brain washed into believing Christ visited America and decided that the new Jerusalem should be built there. Among other weird ideas.

For one I think its quite tragic, the power of indoctrination has a whole new meaning to me now, I know realise that even very intelligent reasonable people can be convinced of the most absurd and outlandish beliefs.

I guess many mormons think the same of us. :(

your crazy...

leave the guy alone... for all you know ... he is right and your the one that needs to change...
i have met a lot of mormons and christians...
in my opinion, if there is a god...
mormons are closer to him
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/12/2009 10:07:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago

Basically my question is, how do I stop him from being a Mormon? I have no problems with him being a Christian, that's completely fine. Its just something about Mormons, its practically a cult.


christianity is a cult as well!
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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9/12/2009 10:11:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I disagree with the others on this thread. As a friend, it absolutely is your business to discuss such issues with him. If you feel he is making a grave mistake with far-reaching consequences then it is your duty as a friend to bring up these matters.

I would agree 100% with Volkov's method of discussion, however. Ask him questions that will lead him to think critically about the issues. Find the logical fallacies and inconsistencies. Get him thinking about them.
comoncents
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9/12/2009 10:14:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 10:11:23 PM, JBlake wrote:
I disagree with the others on this thread. As a friend, it absolutely is your business to discuss such issues with him. If you feel he is making a grave mistake with far-reaching consequences then it is your duty as a friend to bring up these matters.

I would agree 100% with Volkov's method of discussion, however. Ask him questions that will lead him to think critically about the issues. Find the logical fallacies and inconsistencies. Get him thinking about them.

why try to change someone though...
does he seem unhappy...
or do you just want another notch on your belt of converting people so you can impress god...

come on... it comes across as pushy...
that is a good way to lose a friend...
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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9/12/2009 10:18:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 10:14:42 PM, comoncents wrote:
why try to change someone though...
does he seem unhappy...
or do you just want another notch on your belt of converting people so you can impress god...

come on... it comes across as pushy...
that is a good way to lose a friend...

Why would I want to impress an imaginary being?
Happiness can be found in many other places that do not include organized religion.

He can discuss the topic without being pushy. He can discuss it in a manner that will not cause him to lose a friend.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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9/12/2009 10:18:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 10:14:42 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 9/12/2009 10:11:23 PM, JBlake wrote:
I disagree with the others on this thread. As a friend, it absolutely is your business to discuss such issues with him. If you feel he is making a grave mistake with far-reaching consequences then it is your duty as a friend to bring up these matters.

I would agree 100% with Volkov's method of discussion, however. Ask him questions that will lead him to think critically about the issues. Find the logical fallacies and inconsistencies. Get him thinking about them.

why try to change someone though...
does he seem unhappy...
or do you just want another notch on your belt of converting people so you can impress god...

come on... it comes across as pushy...
that is a good way to lose a friend...

No. People SHOULD be doubted. Many people misunderstand this concept. Doubting people is simply a part of trying to get to know them.

"Trust." That act is without a doubt a very noble one... But you know, what many people do, that they call "trust", is actually giving up on trying to understand others. And that has nothing to do with trust, but rather,

apathy.

There are countless people out there who fail to realize that apathy is a far more devastating act than doubting others.

The true evil is becoming apathetic about other people.

Doubt them. Question them, suspect them, and take a good, long look into their hearts. Humans are the kinds of beings that can't put their pain into words, after all.


- Shinichi Akiyama (Liar Game)
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/12/2009 10:31:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Why would I want to impress an imaginary being?
i did not mean that for you... i meant it for the people who believe they need to convert the world to believing in god and jesus christ.

Happiness can be found in many other places that do not include organized religion.

yes... so why not try to get him to go yoga or meditate

He can discuss the topic without being pushy. He can discuss it in a manner that will not cause him to lose a friend.

but most christians are pushy over the subject... saying things like..."if you don't except jesus into your heart you are going to go to hell"... and "i will not be your friend if you continue on this mormon path"
but why does he feel like he needs to police his friend and stuff jesus down his throat.

let the kid be... if not then shove it down his throat and see where it get you...

hey you may even come out on top... having someone else joint your cult.
comoncents
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9/12/2009 10:36:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 10:18:34 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 9/12/2009 10:14:42 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 9/12/2009 10:11:23 PM, JBlake wrote:
I disagree with the others on this thread. As a friend, it absolutely is your business to discuss such issues with him. If you feel he is making a grave mistake with far-reaching consequences then it is your duty as a friend to bring up these matters.

I would agree 100% with Volkov's method of discussion, however. Ask him questions that will lead him to think critically about the issues. Find the logical fallacies and inconsistencies. Get him thinking about them.

why try to change someone though...
does he seem unhappy...
or do you just want another notch on your belt of converting people so you can impress god...

come on... it comes across as pushy...
that is a good way to lose a friend...

No. People SHOULD be doubted. Many people misunderstand this concept. Doubting people is simply a part of trying to get to know them.


but doubting people is not what this kid is talking about... he wants to go in and convert his friend from wanting to become a mormon to becoming an christian...

i agree, that if he goes in with an open mind and questions him, he will not be pushy... and if his friend comes up with better information then he should convert to mormonism... that would fairly be accepted and shows an open mind
comoncents
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9/12/2009 10:41:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 10:35:56 PM, JBlake wrote:
Nik is an atheist. I don't think it very likely that he would be pushing christianity on his friend :)

i got yeah...
(i tend not to look at peoples religion b/c i feel it is private... but after seeing that assumption is worse... i'll begin to look)
wow...
then i don't know what i was talking about...
but still, i would leave him be...

i still think it is kinda contradictory to have an issue with him being a mormon and not a christian.

but again... you proved me to be crazy so i am sure no one cares
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/13/2009 12:07:52 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 3:18:58 PM, Nik wrote:
One of my old friends has just told me today that he's decided to become a Mormon. Now I'm not sure how serious he was, but lets assume hes now a fully converted Mormon.

Basically my question is, how do I stop him from being a Mormon? I have no problems with him being a Christian, that's completely fine. Its just something about Mormons, its practically a cult.

The sad thing is, he's actually a very Intelligent guy, got almost top marks in his IB tests, could easily get a place in Oxbridge, but for some reason he's some how been brain washed into believing Christ visited America and decided that the new Jerusalem should be built there. Among other weird ideas.

For one I think its quite tragic, the power of indoctrination has a whole new meaning to me now, I know realise that even very intelligent reasonable people can be convinced of the most absurd and outlandish beliefs.

I guess many mormons think the same of us. :(

A former friend of mine (we lost contact) was (and likely still is) a Mormon, a very devout Mormon. He was the most Christian, Christian Ive ever known. Considerate, kind, decent. He graduated with a degree in physics from a reasonable university and became a teacher. He showed every indication of free will, he studied, reasearched and challenged his beliefs as part of his own inclination and at the urging of his very own Church (so not really indocrination). He was a mormon of his own free choice, though raised as one he had fallen out of the faith and decided to rejoin it.

Mormonism is really no more crazy than 'mainstream' Christianity. Yes they believe the Jews fled to south america, yes they beleive Jesus went to preach there, yes they believe in three seperate heavens on three different worlds and yes they are technically polytheistic and believe you can attain Godhood.

But in the light of the fact that millions of sane rationale people believe a Jewish carpenter from the time of Ausgustus will return and raise them from the dead its not too bad really is it?

By all means urge your friend to keep his wits about him, to challenge what he is taught and to question how he knows that the Mormons are right thats all you can do.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Nik
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9/13/2009 10:28:55 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Thanks for the advice guys, I've thought about it and I realise that there is probably allot of selfishness in me wanting him to reconsider Mormonism. True Mormonism is a crazy part of Christianity (in my opinion) But to be fair, they do preach things which even us atheists would consider to be good, charity, friendship and good will, taking care of your body (no alcohol and other such toxins), and integrity (to an extent).

Im sort of getting the feeling that im angry because he's become a mormon becuase im not a mormon, Yeah it sounds obvious, but its more along the lines of I want him to be more like me, which is very selfish and inconsiderate.

But I cant shake the feeling that such an intelligent guy, can have his beliefs changed so radically to something which I consider is effectively a fairytale. Could it happen so easily? To even those of us who are absolute atheists? Perhaps there is such thing as divine inspiration......
"If you could tell the world but one truth, I could convince it of a thousand lies"
Puck
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9/14/2009 1:29:47 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/13/2009 10:28:55 AM, Nik wrote:
Perhaps there is such thing as divine inspiration......

Or irrationality is contagious. Check the town water.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/14/2009 4:47:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 3:18:58 PM, Nik wrote:
One of my old friends has just told me today that he's decided to become a Mormon. Now I'm not sure how serious he was, but lets assume hes now a fully converted Mormon.

Basically my question is, how do I stop him from being a Mormon? I have no problems with him being a Christian, that's completely fine. Its just something about Mormons, its practically a cult.

The sad thing is, he's actually a very Intelligent guy, got almost top marks in his IB tests, could easily get a place in Oxbridge, but for some reason he's some how been brain washed into believing Christ visited America and decided that the new Jerusalem should be built there. Among other weird ideas.

For one I think its quite tragic, the power of indoctrination has a whole new meaning to me now, I know realise that even very intelligent reasonable people can be convinced of the most absurd and outlandish beliefs.

I guess many mormons think the same of us. :(

Not practically, It IS A CULT. PERIOD. You must do ALL you can to prevent this.
There are websites for people worried about cults etc.
Act NOW as he is being further indoctrinated every day.

*To all the christians on this site (yes both of you!) please pray for Niks friend: that he will see the darkness he is entering and turn to the light of Jesus Christ.
Thankyou.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Floid
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9/14/2009 4:53:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
being a Christian, that's completely fine. Its just something about Mormons, its practically a cult.

So is Christianity... the only difference is it has a lot more members.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/14/2009 4:57:31 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/14/2009 4:53:26 AM, Floid wrote:
being a Christian, that's completely fine. Its just something about Mormons, its practically a cult.

So is Christianity... the only difference is it has a lot more members.

No, Christianity is the TRUTH. Mormonism is a counterfiet from satan.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/14/2009 8:32:01 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
As a former Mormon, I'm biased in this, but it isn't really any worse than the rest of Christianity. And there is jack diddly you can or should do to force his mind. It is a contradiction to have a friend and disrespect them too.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Danielle
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9/14/2009 10:07:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 3:54:46 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Do you really feel it's your duty to stop him o.O?

Interesting question. I suppose that if one of my friends told me that they were going to become a Mormon, I might not necessarily try to STOP them, but I would definitely talk to them about it and question their motives... especially if they were intelligent. That question just gave me the idea for a forum topic :)
President of DDO
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/14/2009 6:33:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/14/2009 4:47:59 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/12/2009 3:18:58 PM, Nik wrote:
One of my old friends has just told me today that he's decided to become a Mormon. Now I'm not sure how serious he was, but lets assume hes now a fully converted Mormon.

Basically my question is, how do I stop him from being a Mormon? I have no problems with him being a Christian, that's completely fine. Its just something about Mormons, its practically a cult.

The sad thing is, he's actually a very Intelligent guy, got almost top marks in his IB tests, could easily get a place in Oxbridge, but for some reason he's some how been brain washed into believing Christ visited America and decided that the new Jerusalem should be built there. Among other weird ideas.

For one I think its quite tragic, the power of indoctrination has a whole new meaning to me now, I know realise that even very intelligent reasonable people can be convinced of the most absurd and outlandish beliefs.

I guess many mormons think the same of us. :(

Not practically, It IS A CULT. PERIOD. You must do ALL you can to prevent this.
There are websites for people worried about cults etc.
Act NOW as he is being further indoctrinated every day.

*To all the christians on this site (yes both of you!) please pray for Niks friend: that he will see the darkness he is entering and turn to the light of Jesus Christ.
Thankyou.

but christianity is as mush of a cult as mormonism, mormons can say the same about you... correct?
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/16/2009 4:41:02 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/14/2009 6:33:51 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 9/14/2009 4:47:59 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/12/2009 3:18:58 PM, Nik wrote:
One of my old friends has just told me today that he's decided to become a Mormon. Now I'm not sure how serious he was, but lets assume hes now a fully converted Mormon.

Basically my question is, how do I stop him from being a Mormon? I have no problems with him being a Christian, that's completely fine. Its just something about Mormons, its practically a cult.

The sad thing is, he's actually a very Intelligent guy, got almost top marks in his IB tests, could easily get a place in Oxbridge, but for some reason he's some how been brain washed into believing Christ visited America and decided that the new Jerusalem should be built there. Among other weird ideas.

For one I think its quite tragic, the power of indoctrination has a whole new meaning to me now, I know realise that even very intelligent reasonable people can be convinced of the most absurd and outlandish beliefs.

I guess many mormons think the same of us. :(

Not practically, It IS A CULT. PERIOD. You must do ALL you can to prevent this.
There are websites for people worried about cults etc.
Act NOW as he is being further indoctrinated every day.

*To all the christians on this site (yes both of you!) please pray for Niks friend: that he will see the darkness he is entering and turn to the light of Jesus Christ.
Thankyou.

but christianity is as mush of a cult as mormonism, mormons can say the same about you... correct?

Sure they can say it but it does not make it true.
Take a little time to read some of the great Christian websites exposing the mormon 'church'.. It is built on LIES by tin pot, two bit FRAUDSTERS.

'Christianity' isn't the Truth: Jesus Christ is.
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
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9/16/2009 8:17:45 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Sure they can say it but it does not make it true.
Take a little time to read some of the great Christian websites exposing the mormon 'church'.. It is built on LIES by tin pot, two bit FRAUDSTERS.

'Christianity' isn't the Truth: Jesus Christ is.

Sure Christians can say it but it does not make it true.
Take a little time to read some of the great scientific/logical websites exposing the Christian "church".. It is built o LIES by tin pot, two bit FRAUDSTERS.

"Christianity" isn't the Truth: Reason is.
brian_eggleston
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9/16/2009 8:51:58 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 3:18:58 PM, Nik wrote:
...for some reason he's some how been brain washed into believing Christ visited America and decided that the new Jerusalem should be built there...

What nonsense! Play him this hymn...

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold:
Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my spear: O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.


Seriously though, a friend of mine was considering becoming a Buddhist but I persuaded him not to, not by words, but by deeds - I took him out with me to lively pubs and top restaurants and to lap-dancing clubs and nightclubs, all of which were quite new to him, and explained this would be what he would be missing out on.

Now he's happily married and enjoys a good night out with the lads every Friday and has never looked back.
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