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Why be forceful?

InsertNameHere
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8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?
ScottyDouglas
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8/31/2012 5:37:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

How can you force your beliefs on someone? Are you refering to national dictators? I would think if the religion is true(if you believe it is)it would apply to all.
TheAsylum
Lordknukle
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8/31/2012 5:38:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:37:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

How can you force your beliefs on someone? Are you refering to national dictators? I would think if the religion is true(if you believe it is)it would apply to all.

Nope. She is referring to not believing in abortion and gay marriage due to religious indoctrination.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
InsertNameHere
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8/31/2012 5:38:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:37:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

How can you force your beliefs on someone? Are you refering to national dictators? I would think if the religion is true(if you believe it is)it would apply to all.

No, I'm referring to every single religious person who has ever wanted to implement their scriptural law as national law
Lordknukle
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8/31/2012 5:39:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:38:55 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:37:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

How can you force your beliefs on someone? Are you refering to national dictators? I would think if the religion is true(if you believe it is)it would apply to all.

No, I'm referring to every single religious person who has ever wanted to implement their scriptural law as national law

Nailed it.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
InsertNameHere
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8/31/2012 5:40:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:38:08 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:37:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

How can you force your beliefs on someone? Are you refering to national dictators? I would think if the religion is true(if you believe it is)it would apply to all.

Nope. She is referring to not believing in abortion and gay marriage due to religious indoctrination.

Well I'm religious myself, but if I personally think something that people do is against my religious beliefs I just don't participate. Instead of that you have Christians in the US for example trying to outlaw anything they think goes against their beliefs.
twocupcakes
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8/31/2012 5:40:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

This is a nice view. If someone's religion says they cannot eat bacon, does not mean they should outlaw bacon, just that they should not eat bacon. Likewise, if a religion condemns gays, it does not mean they should outlaw gay marriage, just they should not be gay.
Lordknukle
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8/31/2012 5:42:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:40:52 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

This is a nice view. If someone's religion says they cannot eat bacon, does not mean they should outlaw bacon, just that they should not eat bacon. Likewise, if a religion condemns gays, it does not mean they should outlaw gay marriage, just they should not be gay.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com...
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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8/31/2012 5:45:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:42:04 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:40:52 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

This is a nice view. If someone's religion says they cannot eat bacon, does not mean they should outlaw bacon, just that they should not eat bacon. Likewise, if a religion condemns gays, it does not mean they should outlaw gay marriage, just they should not be gay.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com...

Can we not go one further and say that no matter what your views are, that doesn't mean we can impose it onto society? In other words, our personal morality shouldn't be exactly the same as the political morals? I think the world would be a better place as a result.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Lordknukle
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8/31/2012 5:46:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:45:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:42:04 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:40:52 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

This is a nice view. If someone's religion says they cannot eat bacon, does not mean they should outlaw bacon, just that they should not eat bacon. Likewise, if a religion condemns gays, it does not mean they should outlaw gay marriage, just they should not be gay.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com...

Can we not go one further and say that no matter what your views are, that doesn't mean we can impose it onto society? In other words, our personal morality shouldn't be exactly the same as the political morals? I think the world would be a better place as a result.

If you can't impose your personal morality onto society then society will have no morality.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Stephen_Hawkins
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8/31/2012 6:00:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:46:10 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:45:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:42:04 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:40:52 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

This is a nice view. If someone's religion says they cannot eat bacon, does not mean they should outlaw bacon, just that they should not eat bacon. Likewise, if a religion condemns gays, it does not mean they should outlaw gay marriage, just they should not be gay.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com...

Can we not go one further and say that no matter what your views are, that doesn't mean we can impose it onto society? In other words, our personal morality shouldn't be exactly the same as the political morals? I think the world would be a better place as a result.

If you can't impose your personal morality onto society then society will have no morality.

Read that image, and then read what I put.

"Religion doesn't allow pork; doesn't try to make it illegal"

Personal morality is vegetarian; doesn't try to ban meat.

Personal morality would donate to charity; doesn't make charity mandatory.

Personal morality don't gamble; doesn't make gambling illegal.

Personal morality doesn't use grade-A drugs; doesn't make drugs illegal.

Personal morality says this; doesn't try to impose personal morality on everyone.

Notice how I also said to replace with political morals. Yes, I am going to put my foot down regarding stopping discriminatory taxation (i.e. taxing certain racial groups). My personal moral sense is larger than my political moral sense because my personal moral sense is larger and totalitarian: that's because it's my moral system and I choose to follow it. Political morality should be smaller as it is necessary and thus is already non-participatory.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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8/31/2012 6:00:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

Christians that beleive that our moral values should be imposed on nonbelievers ignore Christ's teaching of tolerance in the Bible.

Also, imposing our morality on others eliminates the the ability of the person to freely choose. This is important because our religion requires that we freely choose to beleive in Christ.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
InsertNameHere
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8/31/2012 6:02:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:00:49 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

Christians that beleive that our moral values should be imposed on nonbelievers ignore Christ's teaching of tolerance in the Bible.

Also, imposing our morality on others eliminates the the ability of the person to freely choose. This is important because our religion requires that we freely choose to beleive in Christ.

Ok fair enough, but do you believe abortion, gay marriage, etc. should be made illegal?
ScottyDouglas
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8/31/2012 6:06:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:39:35 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:38:55 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:37:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

How can you force your beliefs on someone? Are you refering to national dictators? I would think if the religion is true(if you believe it is)it would apply to all.

No, I'm referring to every single religious person who has ever wanted to implement their scriptural law as national law

Nailed it.

You missed quoted me....I didnt say that people evolved from rocks. Someone did and I quoted them. I also explained that too.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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8/31/2012 6:07:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 5:38:55 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:37:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

How can you force your beliefs on someone? Are you refering to national dictators? I would think if the religion is true(if you believe it is)it would apply to all.

No, I'm referring to every single religious person who has ever wanted to implement their scriptural law as national law

Ohh....Ok
TheAsylum
johnnyboy54
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8/31/2012 6:08:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:02:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/31/2012 6:00:49 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

Christians that beleive that our moral values should be imposed on nonbelievers ignore Christ's teaching of tolerance in the Bible.

Also, imposing our morality on others eliminates the the ability of the person to freely choose. This is important because our religion requires that we freely choose to beleive in Christ.

Ok fair enough, but do you believe abortion, gay marriage, etc. should be made illegal?

Abortion yes. I beleive it to be comparable to murder, and no one has the right to unjustly take the life of another (my opinion changes if the life of the mother is in danger).

I don't believe government should sanction marriages to begin with. However, every benefit given the heterosexual couples should be given to gay couples (tax benefits, inheritance benefits, ect)
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
ScottyDouglas
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8/31/2012 6:09:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:00:49 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

Christians that beleive that our moral values should be imposed on nonbelievers ignore Christ's teaching of tolerance in the Bible.

Also, imposing our morality on others eliminates the the ability of the person to freely choose. This is important because our religion requires that we freely choose to beleive in Christ.

I agree.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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8/31/2012 6:11:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:02:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/31/2012 6:00:49 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/31/2012 5:34:24 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It's an honest question. Why try to force your own religious laws on others even knowing they don't share your same religious beliefs? Shouldn't laws from scripture only apply to the people who actually believe in the religion?

Christians that beleive that our moral values should be imposed on nonbelievers ignore Christ's teaching of tolerance in the Bible.

Also, imposing our morality on others eliminates the the ability of the person to freely choose. This is important because our religion requires that we freely choose to beleive in Christ.

Ok fair enough, but do you believe abortion, gay marriage, etc. should be made illegal?

Abortion is just murder. I dont like homosexuality besides religion but I do think people ought to be able to choose. Abortion isnt a choice not for the baby.
TheAsylum
InsertNameHere
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8/31/2012 6:14:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:08:32 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:

Abortion yes. I beleive it to be comparable to murder, and no one has the right to unjustly take the life of another (my opinion changes if the life of the mother is in danger).

Not everybody believes abortion is murder though. That seems to be strictly an idea that stems from religious morality so by making it illegal you're forcing scriptural law on people. That seems to just go back to my original point. If you don't believe in abortion just don't get one.

I don't believe government should sanction marriages to begin with. However, every benefit given the heterosexual couples should be given to gay couples (tax benefits, inheritance benefits, ect)

At least you're consistent I suppose.
OberHerr
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8/31/2012 6:17:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:14:41 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/31/2012 6:08:32 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:

Abortion yes. I beleive it to be comparable to murder, and no one has the right to unjustly take the life of another (my opinion changes if the life of the mother is in danger).

Not everybody believes abortion is murder though. That seems to be strictly an idea that stems from religious morality so by making it illegal you're forcing scriptural law on people. That seems to just go back to my original point. If you don't believe in abortion just don't get one.


I could also argue that if you don't like murder, then don't murder. That's why I out my foot down at abortion, because I believe it is the taking of a human life, and an innocent one. And, plenty of atheists are not for abortion as well, as are plenty of Christians for it.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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OberHerr
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8/31/2012 6:18:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:17:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 8/31/2012 6:14:41 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/31/2012 6:08:32 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:

Abortion yes. I beleive it to be comparable to murder, and no one has the right to unjustly take the life of another (my opinion changes if the life of the mother is in danger).

Not everybody believes abortion is murder though. That seems to be strictly an idea that stems from religious morality so by making it illegal you're forcing scriptural law on people. That seems to just go back to my original point. If you don't believe in abortion just don't get one.


I could also argue that if you don't like murder, then don't murder. That's why I put my foot down at abortion, because I believe it is the taking of a human life, and an innocent one. And, plenty of atheists are not for abortion as well, as are plenty of Christians for it.

Fix'd.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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ScottyDouglas
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8/31/2012 6:19:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:14:41 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/31/2012 6:08:32 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:

Abortion yes. I beleive it to be comparable to murder, and no one has the right to unjustly take the life of another (my opinion changes if the life of the mother is in danger).

Not everybody believes abortion is murder though. That seems to be strictly an idea that stems from religious morality so by making it illegal you're forcing scriptural law on people. That seems to just go back to my original point. If you don't believe in abortion just don't get one.

Not everybody thinks that rape, child molestation and killing in general is wrong but that means we should allow that? Fact is a baby just doesnt come without sexual activity by chioce. Then they should own up to that chioce. Life happens at conception, and this is proven, can life happen without conception? If not then to kill that life on purpose is murder.
TheAsylum
OberHerr
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8/31/2012 6:21:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I do agreed that forcing your views on people is not a good idea, up to a point were its a belief like abortion, that your believe it is geniuely immoral, and is the taking of a life. Rape, child molestation, ect. are other examples for this.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
johnnyboy54
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8/31/2012 6:22:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:14:41 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/31/2012 6:08:32 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:

Abortion yes. I beleive it to be comparable to murder, and no one has the right to unjustly take the life of another (my opinion changes if the life of the mother is in danger).

Not everybody believes abortion is murder though. That seems to be strictly an idea that stems from religious morality so by making it illegal you're forcing scriptural law on people. That seems to just go back to my original point. If you don't believe in abortion just don't get one.

My reasoning is not based on scriptural law.

In regards to the bolded text, there are some problems with that. If you are of the belief that a fetus is a human being with rights (I am), then abortion is not justified, because you are taking the life of an innocent human being that is of no threat to you. After all, you cannot use the same excuse for theft or murder, because such actions involve acts of aggression that forcibly deny someone their right to life or property, respectively.

I don't believe government should sanction marriages to begin with. However, every benefit given the heterosexual couples should be given to gay couples (tax benefits, inheritance benefits, ect)

At least you're consistent I suppose.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
johnnyboy54
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8/31/2012 6:25:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:21:49 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I do agreed that forcing your views on people is not a good idea, up to a point were its a belief like abortion, that your believe it is geniuely immoral, and is the taking of a life. Rape, child molestation, ect. are other examples for this.

All those acts involve the forcible taking of rights of one person by another. How I feel about said actions are of no consequence.

For example, I detest the use of hardcore drugs like meth and cocaine. However, the decision to use drugs is up to the user. His action does not necessarily violate the rights of another person. He is acting voluntary and of his will.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
ScottyDouglas
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8/31/2012 6:28:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:25:42 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 8/31/2012 6:21:49 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I do agreed that forcing your views on people is not a good idea, up to a point were its a belief like abortion, that your believe it is geniuely immoral, and is the taking of a life. Rape, child molestation, ect. are other examples for this.

All those acts involve the forcible taking of rights of one person by another. How I feel about said actions are of no consequence.

For example, I detest the use of hardcore drugs like meth and cocaine. However, the decision to use drugs is up to the user. His action does not necessarily violate the rights of another person. He is acting voluntary and of his will.

That is why I dont understand why people are in jails and prisons for decades for it.
TheAsylum
InsertNameHere
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8/31/2012 6:31:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:19:58 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

Not everybody thinks that rape, child molestation and killing in general is wrong but that means we should allow that? Fact is a baby just doesnt come without sexual activity by chioce. Then they should own up to that chioce. Life happens at conception, and this is proven, can life happen without conception? If not then to kill that life on purpose is murder.

Getting pregnant isn't always by choice. There's a thing called rape, y'know. Also, at conception the fetus is literally just a couple of cells. I draw the line on abortion once the nervous system develops since at that point pain would actually be felt.
OberHerr
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8/31/2012 6:34:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
However, INH, I do appreciate your attitude about this......it's been awhile since I've had an honest discussion with someone that didn't say how idiotic my views were every other post on the religion forums, or anything to do with abortion.
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"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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phantom
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8/31/2012 6:38:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Religious people believe (well most of them) you're going to spend the rest of eternity in hell if you don't convert. If you really believe that, your basic human nature is going to try hard to prevent that. And there wouldn't be a whole lot of unjustified methods to stopping someone from burning for eternity.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
ScottyDouglas
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8/31/2012 6:38:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 6:34:55 PM, OberHerr wrote:
However, INH, I do appreciate your attitude about this......it's been awhile since I've had an honest discussion with someone that didn't say how idiotic my views were every other post on the religion forums, or anything to do with abortion.

I like your opinion OberHerr. Its valued here.
TheAsylum