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Free will vs divine plan

EvanK
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8/31/2012 10:07:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm tired, so I apologize in advance if this is a bit sloppy.

I was thinking earlier about the story of the crucifixion, and I began to wonder about Judas Iscariot. He of course, betrayed Christ for money. One would assume he would most likely go to hell. But how fair is that? Afterall, the crucifixion is considered a part of the divine plan, and Judas helped the Romans find Jesus. So without the betrayal, the crucifixion wouldn't have happened. And of course, without the brutality of the Romans, it wouldn't have happened either.

So, I was wondering: Did Judas have the free will, according to Christians, to deny giving away Christ's location, or did God plan it all out that way? Did the Romans have a choice in the part they played, or did God plan it?

This raises a few questions. If they did have free will, then the crucifixion wasn't planned by God, because Judas could've denied the money, and Pontius Pilot could very well have released him, correct? And if, on the other hand, it was planned out by God, then we don't have free will, meaning some of us are predestined for hell, correct?

What are your thoughts?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/1/2012 10:36:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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9/1/2012 10:41:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes.

Its predestined.

Free-will seems like an illusion to me.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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9/1/2012 10:46:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 10:07:37 PM, EvanK wrote:
I'm tired, so I apologize in advance if this is a bit sloppy.

I was thinking earlier about the story of the crucifixion, and I began to wonder about Judas Iscariot. He of course, betrayed Christ for money. One would assume he would most likely go to hell. But how fair is that? Afterall, the crucifixion is considered a part of the divine plan, and Judas helped the Romans find Jesus. So without the betrayal, the crucifixion wouldn't have happened. And of course, without the brutality of the Romans, it wouldn't have happened either.

So, I was wondering: Did Judas have the free will, according to Christians, to deny giving away Christ's location, or did God plan it all out that way? Did the Romans have a choice in the part they played, or did God plan it?

This raises a few questions. If they did have free will, then the crucifixion wasn't planned by God, because Judas could've denied the money, and Pontius Pilot could very well have released him, correct? And if, on the other hand, it was planned out by God, then we don't have free will, meaning some of us are predestined for hell, correct?

What are your thoughts?

"So without the betrayal, the crucifixion wouldn't have happened."

I don't totally agree with that. I believe Judas had every opportunity to not betray Jesus. I believe if Judas had not betrayed Jesus, the crucifixion would have still happened, just in a different way.

However this was more about pre destination vs. foreknowledge and I don't believe they are the same thing. I take the free will stand. Paradox who has commented on this thread believes in pre-destination. While we disagree, we are both Christians that love Jesus. We just have different views on this subject.
Paradox_7
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9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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9/1/2012 11:19:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/31/2012 10:07:37 PM, EvanK wrote:
I'm tired, so I apologize in advance if this is a bit sloppy.

I was thinking earlier about the story of the crucifixion, and I began to wonder about Judas Iscariot. He of course, betrayed Christ for money. One would assume he would most likely go to hell. But how fair is that? Afterall, the crucifixion is considered a part of the divine plan, and Judas helped the Romans find Jesus. So without the betrayal, the crucifixion wouldn't have happened. And of course, without the brutality of the Romans, it wouldn't have happened either.

So, I was wondering: Did Judas have the free will, according to Christians, to deny giving away Christ's location, or did God plan it all out that way? Did the Romans have a choice in the part they played, or did God plan it?

This raises a few questions. If they did have free will, then the crucifixion wasn't planned by God, because Judas could've denied the money, and Pontius Pilot could very well have released him, correct? And if, on the other hand, it was planned out by God, then we don't have free will, meaning some of us are predestined for hell, correct?

What are your thoughts?

Very fair question, Evan.
Judas wouldnt go to hell for the betrayal of Jesus. He believed Jesus was the Son of God. First He didnt betray Jesus to get him killed, I doubt He thought He would, He did for the money and was ashamed after the fact when He knew Jesus would die. I would be more concerned about him going to hell for suicide. Though it isnt anyones place to make that determination and neither for anyone.
I think there is pre-destination and also free-will. Like Stubs explained, he had the choice to choose not to betray Jesus but did on his own. If he hadnt Jesus would have been crucified anyway but other means. See though it was destiny for Jesus to be crucified the means in which it happens is choice by the one who does it. You are correct Pilot could have choose to allow Jesus to go free and even if he did Jesus would have been crucified by other means. These people chose to make the decisions they made which in result fulfilled what result was destined to happen anyway. So, if they chose differently than they did and wasnt part of the exzact cause, another cause would have came fulfilling the crucifixtion. They chose to be involved and thier decision fulfilled what was destined.
TheAsylum
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 3:05:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 11:19:05 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 8/31/2012 10:07:37 PM, EvanK wrote:
I'm tired, so I apologize in advance if this is a bit sloppy.

I was thinking earlier about the story of the crucifixion, and I began to wonder about Judas Iscariot. He of course, betrayed Christ for money. One would assume he would most likely go to hell. But how fair is that? Afterall, the crucifixion is considered a part of the divine plan, and Judas helped the Romans find Jesus. So without the betrayal, the crucifixion wouldn't have happened. And of course, without the brutality of the Romans, it wouldn't have happened either.

So, I was wondering: Did Judas have the free will, according to Christians, to deny giving away Christ's location, or did God plan it all out that way? Did the Romans have a choice in the part they played, or did God plan it?

This raises a few questions. If they did have free will, then the crucifixion wasn't planned by God, because Judas could've denied the money, and Pontius Pilot could very well have released him, correct? And if, on the other hand, it was planned out by God, then we don't have free will, meaning some of us are predestined for hell, correct?

What are your thoughts?

Very fair question, Evan.
Judas wouldnt go to hell for the betrayal of Jesus. He believed Jesus was the Son of God. First He didnt betray Jesus to get him killed, I doubt He thought He would, He did for the money and was ashamed after the fact when He knew Jesus would die. I would be more concerned about him going to hell for suicide. Though it isnt anyones place to make that determination and neither for anyone.
I think there is pre-destination and also free-will. Like Stubs explained, he had the choice to choose not to betray Jesus but did on his own. If he hadnt Jesus would have been crucified anyway but other means. See though it was destiny for Jesus to be crucified the means in which it happens is choice by the one who does it. You are correct Pilot could have choose to allow Jesus to go free and even if he did Jesus would have been crucified by other means. These people chose to make the decisions they made which in result fulfilled what result was destined to happen anyway. So, if they chose differently than they did and wasnt part of the exzact cause, another cause would have came fulfilling the crucifixtion. They chose to be involved and thier decision fulfilled what was destined.

But if it was predetermined, then Jesus would in fact be crucified one way or another, right? If so, then what if no one would agree to crucify him? Herod declined he thought Jesus was crazy, so what if everyone with the power to crucify him, declined on those grounds? Not that I think Christ was crazy, not at all, but a good deal of people did.

Also, if it was predetermined, and someone did in fact agree to execute him, which of course did happen, aren't those people then predetermined to go to hell? I understand that it isn't our place to say, but I don't like the idea of God predetermining our afterlife destination.

One more thought, if the world is in fact predetermined, why does God answer prayers? Couldn't he have just planned things to happen a certain way?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 3:05:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 10:41:10 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Yes.

Its predestined.

Free-will seems like an illusion to me.

How so?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 3:08:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 10:46:24 AM, stubs wrote:
At 8/31/2012 10:07:37 PM, EvanK wrote:
I'm tired, so I apologize in advance if this is a bit sloppy.

I was thinking earlier about the story of the crucifixion, and I began to wonder about Judas Iscariot. He of course, betrayed Christ for money. One would assume he would most likely go to hell. But how fair is that? Afterall, the crucifixion is considered a part of the divine plan, and Judas helped the Romans find Jesus. So without the betrayal, the crucifixion wouldn't have happened. And of course, without the brutality of the Romans, it wouldn't have happened either.

So, I was wondering: Did Judas have the free will, according to Christians, to deny giving away Christ's location, or did God plan it all out that way? Did the Romans have a choice in the part they played, or did God plan it?

This raises a few questions. If they did have free will, then the crucifixion wasn't planned by God, because Judas could've denied the money, and Pontius Pilot could very well have released him, correct? And if, on the other hand, it was planned out by God, then we don't have free will, meaning some of us are predestined for hell, correct?

What are your thoughts?

"So without the betrayal, the crucifixion wouldn't have happened."

I don't totally agree with that. I believe Judas had every opportunity to not betray Jesus. I believe if Judas had not betrayed Jesus, the crucifixion would have still happened, just in a different way.

However this was more about pre destination vs. foreknowledge and I don't believe they are the same thing. I take the free will stand. Paradox who has commented on this thread believes in pre-destination. While we disagree, we are both Christians that love Jesus. We just have different views on this subject.

So you think that God knew it would happen a certain way, but didn't plan it? Also, it is said that it couldn't have happened any other way, that the crucifixion had to happen. In that case, do the Roman soldiers get condemed to hell for their part? In your opinion, anyway. Obviously no way of knowing for sure.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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9/1/2012 3:12:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

But if it was predetermined, then Jesus would in fact be crucified one way or another, right? :
Right.
If so, then what if no one would agree to crucify him?:
Someone would have because it was predetermined to happen.
Herod declined he thought Jesus was crazy, so what if everyone with the power to crucify him, declined on those grounds? :
Then the someone else would have.

Also, if it was predetermined, and someone did in fact agree to execute him, which of course did happen, aren't those people then predetermined to go to hell?:
Not at all. They probably did but they doesnt mean they did. We must remember that some who fulfilled the old Laws still could have received salvation. I doubt they did but that isnt something we can determine.
I understand that it isn't our place to say, but I don't like the idea of God predetermining our afterlife destination.:
He doesnt really, you do.

One more thought, if the world is in fact predetermined, why does God answer prayers?:
Couldn't he have just planned things to happen a certain way?:
He did plan things to happen, certain things. There are major evens that are going to happen no matter what. But the smaller things like you deciding your fate, is in your hands. Jesus being crucified was going to happen no matter what. But you going to hell isnt.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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9/1/2012 3:14:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...

To go further, even people who are saved do evil to fulfill things. While also people who are evil do great goods also to fulfill things.
TheAsylum
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/1/2012 3:50:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...


That's exactly what the bible says, that some are chosen to be saved, and some are chosen to be punished.

However, you didn't answer the second part of my question (to stubs), why doesn't everyone choose Christ? Why is it that some (supposedly) choose him, and other don't?

Are some people more righteous then others? Biblically, no one is any different, and no one chooses God (Romans 3).
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
ScottyDouglas
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9/1/2012 4:08:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 3:50:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...


That's exactly what the bible says, that some are chosen to be saved, and some are chosen to be punished.

However, you didn't answer the second part of my question (to stubs), why doesn't everyone choose Christ? Why is it that some (supposedly) choose him, and other don't?

Are some people more righteous then others? Biblically, no one is any different, and no one chooses God (Romans 3).

We are agreed but with two different burdens of message.
TheAsylum
stubs
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9/1/2012 4:30:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..


How does that show predestination specifically and not forknowledge?

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

Why do some choose Islam? Judaism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Jainism?
Paradox_7
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9/1/2012 5:06:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 4:30:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..


How does that show predestination specifically and not forknowledge?

It doesn't. However, that, in combination to the multiple scriptures that explicitly say 'predestined', make a very strong case.. and you'd have to a lot of stretching to fit free-will into those very specific passages.

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

Why do some choose Islam? Judaism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Jainism?


Well, you see, i have an answer for that because i believe only God can regenerate a soul.. Man will go anywhere, but too GOD. Unless God chooses some, no one would choose him.

now, whats your answer?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
EvanK
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9/1/2012 5:12:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 3:12:39 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

But if it was predetermined, then Jesus would in fact be crucified one way or another, right? :
Right.
If so, then what if no one would agree to crucify him?:
Someone would have because it was predetermined to happen.

My problem with it, though, is that someone is predetermined to sin.

Herod declined he thought Jesus was crazy, so what if everyone with the power to crucify him, declined on those grounds? :
Then the someone else would have.

Also, if it was predetermined, and someone did in fact agree to execute him, which of course did happen, aren't those people then predetermined to go to hell?:
Not at all. They probably did but they doesnt mean they did. We must remember that some who fulfilled the old Laws still could have received salvation. I doubt they did but that isnt something we can determine.

But doesn't that mean that some people were predetermined to go to hell?

I understand that it isn't our place to say, but I don't like the idea of God predetermining our afterlife destination.:
He doesnt really, you do.

One more thought, if the world is in fact predetermined, why does God answer prayers?:
Couldn't he have just planned things to happen a certain way?:
He did plan things to happen, certain things. There are major evens that are going to happen no matter what. But the smaller things like you deciding your fate, is in your hands. Jesus being crucified was going to happen no matter what. But you going to hell isnt.

But some of the big things, like the crucifixion, depend on sinful acts, it would appear. Just the way it seems to me, anyway...
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 5:13:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 3:14:49 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...

To go further, even people who are saved do evil to fulfill things. While also people who are evil do great goods also to fulfill things.

Do you believe non-Christians can go to heaven?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 5:14:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 3:50:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...


That's exactly what the bible says, that some are chosen to be saved, and some are chosen to be punished.

But would a loving God purposefully create people who would go to hell, no matter what?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/1/2012 5:24:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 5:14:59 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:50:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...


That's exactly what the bible says, that some are chosen to be saved, and some are chosen to be punished.

But would a loving God purposefully create people who would go to hell, no matter what?


Absolutely, because he's only loving to his children. However, he is also Just, Holy, and hates Sin. Those attributes must be equally present to his love, in order for him to be perfect.

It's a tough pill to swallow; I don't like it anymore then anyone else.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 5:37:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 5:24:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:14:59 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:50:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...


That's exactly what the bible says, that some are chosen to be saved, and some are chosen to be punished.

But would a loving God purposefully create people who would go to hell, no matter what?


Absolutely, because he's only loving to his children. However, he is also Just, Holy, and hates Sin. Those attributes must be equally present to his love, in order for him to be perfect.

It's a tough pill to swallow; I don't like it anymore then anyone else.

So you believe that he creates people just to send them to hell?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Stephen_Hawkins
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9/1/2012 6:06:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Look up "Peter Geach: Chessmaster".

"God is the supreme Grand Master who has everything under his control. Some of the prayers are consciously helping his plan, others are trying to hinder it; whatever the finite players do, God's plan will be executed; though various lines of God's play will answer to various moves of the finite players. God cannot be surprised or thwarted or cheated or disappointed. God, like some Grand Master at chess, can carry out his plan even if he has announced it beforehand. ‘On that square,' says the Grand Master, ‘I will promote my Queen and deliver check-mate to my adversary,' and it is even so" (Providence and Evil, Geach, 1977, page 58)
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/1/2012 6:11:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 5:37:47 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:24:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:14:59 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:50:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...


That's exactly what the bible says, that some are chosen to be saved, and some are chosen to be punished.

But would a loving God purposefully create people who would go to hell, no matter what?


Absolutely, because he's only loving to his children. However, he is also Just, Holy, and hates Sin. Those attributes must be equally present to his love, in order for him to be perfect.

It's a tough pill to swallow; I don't like it anymore then anyone else.

So you believe that he creates people just to send them to hell?


Of course not, they live lives don't they, have family, friends, good times, bad times, good sex, wake up with a major headache then scream at what you potentially boned sex! (lol)

I believe he creates everyone for a purpose of his own, to bring glory to his name, and some of those people's purpose, INCLUDES going to hell.. however, it is not their sole purpose.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 6:17:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 6:11:17 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:37:47 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:24:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:14:59 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:50:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...


That's exactly what the bible says, that some are chosen to be saved, and some are chosen to be punished.

But would a loving God purposefully create people who would go to hell, no matter what?


Absolutely, because he's only loving to his children. However, he is also Just, Holy, and hates Sin. Those attributes must be equally present to his love, in order for him to be perfect.

It's a tough pill to swallow; I don't like it anymore then anyone else.

So you believe that he creates people just to send them to hell?


Of course not, they live lives don't they, have family, friends, good times, bad times, good sex, wake up with a major headache then scream at what you potentially boned sex! (lol)

I believe he creates everyone for a purpose of his own, to bring glory to his name, and some of those people's purpose, INCLUDES going to hell.. however, it is not their sole purpose.

Then free will does exist. That's been my point all along. People can make choices, meaning Judas and the Romans could've done the opposite of what they ultimately did.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/1/2012 6:21:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Free will doesn't exist because every decision is ultimately based on something that you cannot control

For example,

P1 Free will entitles the ability to chose an action on your own regard
P2 Choice is limited by knowledge
C1 Free will is limited by knowledge
P3 Knowledge is limited by truth.
P4 Truth cannot be controlled
C2 Free will does not exist
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/1/2012 6:23:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 6:17:52 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 6:11:17 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:37:47 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:24:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:14:59 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:50:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...


That's exactly what the bible says, that some are chosen to be saved, and some are chosen to be punished.

But would a loving God purposefully create people who would go to hell, no matter what?


Absolutely, because he's only loving to his children. However, he is also Just, Holy, and hates Sin. Those attributes must be equally present to his love, in order for him to be perfect.

It's a tough pill to swallow; I don't like it anymore then anyone else.

So you believe that he creates people just to send them to hell?


Of course not, they live lives don't they, have family, friends, good times, bad times, good sex, wake up with a major headache then scream at what you potentially boned sex! (lol)

I believe he creates everyone for a purpose of his own, to bring glory to his name, and some of those people's purpose, INCLUDES going to hell.. however, it is not their sole purpose.

Then free will does exist. That's been my point all along. People can make choices, meaning Judas and the Romans could've done the opposite of what they ultimately did.


Huh? I said that he creates people for his own purpose, and though it might include hell, it wasn't the sole purpose. They have no will to choose God, they can only choose to deny him..

All of us, can only deny him, unless he[God] chooses to regenerate you.. No free-will.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 6:45:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 6:23:31 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 6:17:52 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 6:11:17 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:37:47 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:24:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 5:14:59 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:50:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/1/2012 3:11:15 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/1/2012 11:09:05 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Ahh, Stubs.

Well, it was predestined, as Jesus told Judas long before, that he would betray him..

In regards to the free-will, can you explain to me why some 'choose' Christ, and why others don't?

I think that the fact that some choose Christ and others don't is a perfect example that free will exists...If it didn't, then those who were "predetermined" to not choose Christ would be condemned for doing so...


That's exactly what the bible says, that some are chosen to be saved, and some are chosen to be punished.

But would a loving God purposefully create people who would go to hell, no matter what?


Absolutely, because he's only loving to his children. However, he is also Just, Holy, and hates Sin. Those attributes must be equally present to his love, in order for him to be perfect.

It's a tough pill to swallow; I don't like it anymore then anyone else.

So you believe that he creates people just to send them to hell?


Of course not, they live lives don't they, have family, friends, good times, bad times, good sex, wake up with a major headache then scream at what you potentially boned sex! (lol)

I believe he creates everyone for a purpose of his own, to bring glory to his name, and some of those people's purpose, INCLUDES going to hell.. however, it is not their sole purpose.

Then free will does exist. That's been my point all along. People can make choices, meaning Judas and the Romans could've done the opposite of what they ultimately did.


Huh? I said that he creates people for his own purpose, and though it might include hell, it wasn't the sole purpose. They have no will to choose God, they can only choose to deny him..

All of us, can only deny him, unless he[God] chooses to regenerate you.. No free-will.

I don't think God would create people for a specific purpose, including commiting sinful acts, if God is a loving God. Just my POV, anyway...
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/1/2012 6:48:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 6:21:16 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Free will doesn't exist because every decision is ultimately based on something that you cannot control

For example,

P1 Free will entitles the ability to chose an action on your own regard
P2 Choice is limited by knowledge
C1 Free will is limited by knowledge
P3 Knowledge is limited by truth.
P4 Truth cannot be controlled
C2 Free will does not exist

But you can make a choice off of given knowledge.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
imabench
Posts: 21,224
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9/1/2012 6:51:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Im just going to go ahead and put my two cents in here.

I believe in BOTH free will and divine plan. I believe that people can do whatever they want in the short term (1 to 2 days at a time) however I think that our long term decisions (years and years) and choices in life are part of the divine plan. The part in between those two ranges is a grey area.

For the record though that is merely my opinion and not based on any facts or all, so I dont claim to be right, this is just my opinion.

kthxbye :D
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ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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9/1/2012 6:58:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/1/2012 6:51:56 PM, imabench wrote:
Im just going to go ahead and put my two cents in here.

I believe in BOTH free will and divine plan. I believe that people can do whatever they want in the short term (1 to 2 days at a time) however I think that our long term decisions (years and years) and choices in life are part of the divine plan. The part in between those two ranges is a grey area.

For the record though that is merely my opinion and not based on any facts or all, so I dont claim to be right, this is just my opinion.

kthxbye :D

I think your pretty much, Right, in this instance.
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