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When you become a God, will you use evil the

GreatestIam
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9/3/2012 7:56:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
When you become a God, will you use evil the way God does?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don't know your view of evil or how you explain it but much of scriptures say that at some future in heaven, we will become as God and to me that would mean that we all inherit a new earth. Anything less would be less than what Satan has been given. Dominion over the earth. God would hardly give man less. I assume here that like humans, God would want his children to reach his level of thought and responsibilities and then some. God would then become God of Gods.

Believers, should have no problem imagining the scenario above and should be able to show why they would allow evil to exist on their own make believe world.

No definitive conclusion has ever been presented and accepted by any majority as to why God created and uses evil. To evolutionary theists, it must exist to further the survival of the fittest and what keeps man evolving. Without it we would face a greater evil. Extinction.

To some theists, it is to test us and weed out the unworthy or less fit. Yet many theists not believe in evolution even as God weeds out the less fit. Causing heavenly evolution, so to speak.

As a Gnostic Christian, I have no problem reconciling evil with reality. To me, within evolution, evil is good. Somewhat the way a God would think. I would not get rid of it as I see it's ultimate requirement and in that sense, evil is good as it serves the greater good. Evolution. Theistic evolutionists agree.

Free will is not a valid argument if we must do evil to survive. Evolution demands both evil/competition and good/cooperation.

Would you allow evil to exist on your fictitious world, like God or nature does here in our real world?

If yes, why would you keep and use evil?

If no, how would your world work if you did somehow get rid of evil?

Regards
DL
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/3/2012 8:25:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's true. If God exists, he holds the will of rapists over the will of victims of rape. If not, he wouldn't let the victim's will be violated by the rapist. Either way, one person's will is going to be violated. It might as well be the rapists.
GreatestIam
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9/3/2012 9:02:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 8:25:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
It's true. If God exists, he holds the will of rapists over the will of victims of rape. If not, he wouldn't let the victim's will be violated by the rapist. Either way, one person's will is going to be violated. It might as well be the rapists.

Yes and thus a moral man or God would act.

Regards
DL
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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9/3/2012 9:07:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"When you become a God, will you use evil the way God does?"

I have no immediate plans to become a god. I have no idea where that teaching came from. Is it some kinda Jehovah's Witness nonsense?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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9/3/2012 9:08:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I find it laughable that someone blames God that He created them, that they choose to be killers, thieves, rapist, liars and sexual deviants. Seems to me that men should learn to be moral themselves instead blaimng God because they lack the will and want to be that way. This is a reason why our society is heading down hill from 50 years ago when my parents could leave thier doors unlocked all day and night. Ohh... It aint peoples fault, Its God's.
TheAsylum
Rational_Thinker9119
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9/3/2012 9:19:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 9:02:23 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/3/2012 8:25:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
It's true. If God exists, he holds the will of rapists over the will of victims of rape. If not, he wouldn't let the victim's will be violated by the rapist. Either way, one person's will is going to be violated. It might as well be the rapists.

Yes and thus a moral man or God would act.

Regards
DL

Well, human beings cannot read minds, teleport places just by thinking about it, jump 70 feet in the air with no external support ect...

Basically, there are plenty of things we can have the will to do, but but cannot do due to limitations. Instead of God acting in this universe to prevent certain acts of evil directly, he could have just created a universe where evil would be one of the things we could not do (just like how jumping 70 feet in the air without external support is something we cannot do in this universe).

The theist could say that a universe with no evil would mean humans beings would not have value, I would say that's not necessarily true logically. If God is omnipotent, he could have created a world where evil did not exist and human beings had value, because there is nothing logically incoherent about that (it simply just doesn't sit right with the Theist regarding the way things work in this universe).

Really, God could have just created a universe without evil. The idea that he would create this universe, knowing there would be evil, and he is supposed to be omnibenevolent, is just silly. Free will to do evil is not a necessary condition for value, thus an omnibenevolent God almost certainly would have created a universe without evil deeds while still maintaining human value due to his omnipotence, and the lack of logical incoherence with the scenario.
Rational_Thinker9119
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9/3/2012 9:21:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 9:08:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
I find it laughable that someone blames God that He created them, that they choose to be killers, thieves, rapist, liars and sexual deviants. Seems to me that men should learn to be moral themselves instead blaimng God because they lack the will and want to be that way. This is a reason why our society is heading down hill from 50 years ago when my parents could leave thier doors unlocked all day and night. Ohh... It aint peoples fault, Its God's.

We are not saying it's God's fault, we are saying that God most likely doesn't exist because a God with his attributes, wouldn't manage things this way.

God would have to exist for it to be his fault.
GreatestIam
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9/4/2012 8:35:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 9:07:59 PM, annanicole wrote:
"When you become a God, will you use evil the way God does?"

I have no immediate plans to become a god. I have no idea where that teaching came from. Is it some kinda Jehovah's Witness nonsense?

Let me quote a Christian.
"The scriptures are full of commands telling us of our Divine Potential, even commanding us to become as God. The Most straight forward statement to that effect is Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Christ clarified who the writer was speaking about when He said that:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:34-36, emphasis added)

So those who accept the word of God are gods, even children of the Father. That certainly explains why the scriptures call the Father the "God of gods" (See Joshua 22:22; Psalm 136:2; Deut 10:17; Daniel 11:36)

We are specificlly commanded to take upon ourselves the attributes of God. We are to look to Christ as our perfect example. (1 Peter 2:21) We are to perfect as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48). We are to serve our brethren as He has. (John 13:15) We are to suffer as He has (see again 1 Peter 2:21). By accepting Christ into our lives, we become joint heirs with Christ and inherit all the Father has. (Romans 8:17)

When Peter spoke on it, he called it being "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). John stated:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2) Through the Atonement, we can be pure as He is pure (1 John 3:3)

So the scriptures are repleat when admonitions, teachings, and exhortations declaring those who recieve the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be gods and commending us to follow the path that leads to exactly that. Satan's biggest lie nowadays is that we can't become like God. That we are just human and there is nothing we can do about that.

But Christ came specifically so we can be born again into a divine life. He came to make us holy, who were unholy, through the grace of God. By His blood we are purchased and purified so that we can gain Eternal Life. We are the children of God, what do children grow up to become? An acorn grows into a mighty tree, even when they dont look at all alike when they start out. As does the tiny mustard seed. You think that despite being God's children we can't become like Him? Then what was the point of Christ's sacrifice, if not to reconcile us with God and restore to us what we couldn't do for ourselves?

Man and God are the same species. We are literally His children. The scriptues are clear on this."

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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9/4/2012 8:39:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 9:08:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
I find it laughable that someone blames God that He created them, that they choose to be killers, thieves, rapist, liars and sexual deviants. Seems to me that men should learn to be moral themselves instead blaimng God because they lack the will and want to be that way. This is a reason why our society is heading down hill from 50 years ago when my parents could leave thier doors unlocked all day and night. Ohh... It aint peoples fault, Its God's.

You are correct that it is all human generated.
But if we are to be an evolving species, we must do evil like it or not.
When we compete and win, we create victims who will feel that evil has been done to them.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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9/4/2012 8:44:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 9:19:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/3/2012 9:02:23 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/3/2012 8:25:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
It's true. If God exists, he holds the will of rapists over the will of victims of rape. If not, he wouldn't let the victim's will be violated by the rapist. Either way, one person's will is going to be violated. It might as well be the rapists.

Yes and thus a moral man or God would act.

Regards
DL

Well, human beings cannot read minds, teleport places just by thinking about it, jump 70 feet in the air with no external support ect...

Basically, there are plenty of things we can have the will to do, but but cannot do due to limitations. Instead of God acting in this universe to prevent certain acts of evil directly, he could have just created a universe where evil would be one of the things we could not do (just like how jumping 70 feet in the air without external support is something we cannot do in this universe).

The theist could say that a universe with no evil would mean humans beings would not have value, I would say that's not necessarily true logically. If God is omnipotent, he could have created a world where evil did not exist and human beings had value, because there is nothing logically incoherent about that (it simply just doesn't sit right with the Theist regarding the way things work in this universe).

Really, God could have just created a universe without evil. The idea that he would create this universe, knowing there would be evil, and he is supposed to be omnibenevolent, is just silly. Free will to do evil is not a necessary condition for value, thus an omnibenevolent God almost certainly would have created a universe without evil deeds while still maintaining human value due to his omnipotence, and the lack of logical incoherence with the scenario.

That is the problem with giving God all possible attributes. Omni-everything.
We end with an impossible God who does not seem to be in control of what we perceive as a defective system he created.

I do not have that problem as I attribute life to evolution and not some God.

Regards
DL
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/4/2012 8:54:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes I would keep evil in the world, as free will is not possible without having the choice between good and evil. In addition, if evil didn't exist I think we'd be self-centered little twits, even worse than we are now. Man would not learn compassion or empathy for fellow man, nor would we have any kind of moral compass to guide us. How can we know something is good if we don't know what it means to be evil??

As for free will, the concept that we are referring to when we say free will, was present before evil. It's what allowed Lucifer to decide to turn against God. To my knowledge that was the first act of evil and Lucifer had to have free will to make that choice. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
medic0506
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9/4/2012 9:24:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 7:56:03 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
When you become a God, will you use evil the way God does?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don't know your view of evil or how you explain it but much of scriptures say that at some future in heaven, we will become as God and to me that would mean that we all inherit a new earth. Anything less would be less than what Satan has been given. Dominion over the earth. God would hardly give man less. I assume here that like humans, God would want his children to reach his level of thought and responsibilities and then some. God would then become God of Gods.

Believers, should have no problem imagining the scenario above and should be able to show why they would allow evil to exist on their own make believe world.

I can imagine the scenario but I'm not sure that becoming gods is supported in the Bible. The verse you posted is simply Christ telling us to adhere the Beatitudes, and the instructions He had given in earlier verses. He wants us to strive for perfection, and try to be perfect, as the Father in Heaven.

No definitive conclusion has ever been presented and accepted by any majority as to why God created and uses evil.

This may not be accepted the majority, but I believe that evil is just something that must be tolerated as a side effect of mankind having free will. To me it seems no more complex than that.

To evolutionary theists, it must exist to further the survival of the fittest and what keeps man evolving. Without it we would face a greater evil. Extinction.

To some theists, it is to test us and weed out the unworthy or less fit. Yet many theists not believe in evolution even as God weeds out the less fit. Causing heavenly evolution, so to speak.

As a Gnostic Christian, I have no problem reconciling evil with reality. To me, within evolution, evil is good. Somewhat the way a God would think. I would not get rid of it as I see it's ultimate requirement and in that sense, evil is good as it serves the greater good. Evolution. Theistic evolutionists agree.

Free will is not a valid argument if we must do evil to survive. Evolution demands both evil/competition and good/cooperation.

Would you allow evil to exist on your fictitious world, like God or nature does here in our real world?

If yes, why would you keep and use evil?

If no, how would your world work if you did somehow get rid of evil?




Regards
DL
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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9/4/2012 11:43:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:54:11 AM, medic0506 wrote:
Yes I would keep evil in the world, as free will is not possible without having the choice between good and evil. In addition, if evil didn't exist I think we'd be self-centered little twits, even worse than we are now. Man would not learn compassion or empathy for fellow man, nor would we have any kind of moral compass to guide us. How can we know something is good if we don't know what it means to be evil??

As for free will, the concept that we are referring to when we say free will, was present before evil. It's what allowed Lucifer to decide to turn against God. To my knowledge that was the first act of evil and Lucifer had to have free will to make that choice. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

You are right and God must have noted the goodness of this evil to the larger picture and that is why God rewarded Satan with dominion over the earth. Mythically speaking of course.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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9/4/2012 11:48:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 9:24:35 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/3/2012 7:56:03 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
When you become a God, will you use evil the way God does?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don't know your view of evil or how you explain it but much of scriptures say that at some future in heaven, we will become as God and to me that would mean that we all inherit a new earth. Anything less would be less than what Satan has been given. Dominion over the earth. God would hardly give man less. I assume here that like humans, God would want his children to reach his level of thought and responsibilities and then some. God would then become God of Gods.

Believers, should have no problem imagining the scenario above and should be able to show why they would allow evil to exist on their own make believe world.

I can imagine the scenario but I'm not sure that becoming gods is supported in the Bible. The verse you posted is simply Christ telling us to adhere the Beatitudes, and the instructions He had given in earlier verses. He wants us to strive for perfection, and try to be perfect, as the Father in Heaven.

No definitive conclusion has ever been presented and accepted by any majority as to why God created and uses evil.

This may not be accepted the majority, but I believe that evil is just something that must be tolerated as a side effect of mankind having free will. To me it seems no more complex than that.

To evolutionary theists, it must exist to further the survival of the fittest and what keeps man evolving. Without it we would face a greater evil. Extinction.

To some theists, it is to test us and weed out the unworthy or less fit. Yet many theists not believe in evolution even as God weeds out the less fit. Causing heavenly evolution, so to speak.

As a Gnostic Christian, I have no problem reconciling evil with reality. To me, within evolution, evil is good. Somewhat the way a God would think. I would not get rid of it as I see it's ultimate requirement and in that sense, evil is good as it serves the greater good. Evolution. Theistic evolutionists agree.

Free will is not a valid argument if we must do evil to survive. Evolution demands both evil/competition and good/cooperation.

Would you allow evil to exist on your fictitious world, like God or nature does here in our real world?

If yes, why would you keep and use evil?

If no, how would your world work if you did somehow get rid of evil?




Regards
DL

Seems we do not have an argument on the necessity of evil so let me give you a quote from a Christian as to how he sees us vis a vis God and sons.

"
The scriptures are full of commands telling us of our Divine Potential, even commanding us to become as God. The Most straight forward statement to that effect is Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Christ clarified who the writer was speaking about when He said that:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:34-36, emphasis added)

So those who accept the word of God are gods, even children of the Father. That certainly explains why the scriptures call the Father the "God of gods" (See Joshua 22:22; Psalm 136:2; Deut 10:17; Daniel 11:36)

We are specificlly commanded to take upon ourselves the attributes of God. We are to look to Christ as our perfect example. (1 Peter 2:21) We are to perfect as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48). We are to serve our brethren as He has. (John 13:15) We are to suffer as He has (see again 1 Peter 2:21). By accepting Christ into our lives, we become joint heirs with Christ and inherit all the Father has. (Romans 8:17)

When Peter spoke on it, he called it being "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). John stated:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2) Through the Atonement, we can be pure as He is pure (1 John 3:3)

So the scriptures are repleat when admonitions, teachings, and exhortations declaring those who recieve the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be gods and commending us to follow the path that leads to exactly that. Satan's biggest lie nowadays is that we can't become like God. That we are just human and there is nothing we can do about that.

But Christ came specifically so we can be born again into a divine life. He came to make us holy, who were unholy, through the grace of God. By His blood we are purchased and purified so that we can gain Eternal Life. We are the children of God, what do children grow up to become? An acorn grows into a mighty tree, even when they dont look at all alike when they start out. As does the tiny mustard seed. You think that despite being God's children we can't become like Him? Then what was the point of Christ's sacrifice, if not to reconcile us with God and restore to us what we couldn't do for ourselves?

Man and God are the same species. We are literally His children. The scriptues are clear on this."

Regards
DL
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/4/2012 5:01:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 11:48:21 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/4/2012 9:24:35 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/3/2012 7:56:03 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
When you become a God, will you use evil the way God does?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don't know your view of evil or how you explain it but much of scriptures say that at some future in heaven, we will become as God and to me that would mean that we all inherit a new earth. Anything less would be less than what Satan has been given. Dominion over the earth. God would hardly give man less. I assume here that like humans, God would want his children to reach his level of thought and responsibilities and then some. God would then become God of Gods.

Believers, should have no problem imagining the scenario above and should be able to show why they would allow evil to exist on their own make believe world.

I can imagine the scenario but I'm not sure that becoming gods is supported in the Bible. The verse you posted is simply Christ telling us to adhere the Beatitudes, and the instructions He had given in earlier verses. He wants us to strive for perfection, and try to be perfect, as the Father in Heaven.

No definitive conclusion has ever been presented and accepted by any majority as to why God created and uses evil.

This may not be accepted the majority, but I believe that evil is just something that must be tolerated as a side effect of mankind having free will. To me it seems no more complex than that.

To evolutionary theists, it must exist to further the survival of the fittest and what keeps man evolving. Without it we would face a greater evil. Extinction.

To some theists, it is to test us and weed out the unworthy or less fit. Yet many theists not believe in evolution even as God weeds out the less fit. Causing heavenly evolution, so to speak.

As a Gnostic Christian, I have no problem reconciling evil with reality. To me, within evolution, evil is good. Somewhat the way a God would think. I would not get rid of it as I see it's ultimate requirement and in that sense, evil is good as it serves the greater good. Evolution. Theistic evolutionists agree.

Free will is not a valid argument if we must do evil to survive. Evolution demands both evil/competition and good/cooperation.

Would you allow evil to exist on your fictitious world, like God or nature does here in our real world?

If yes, why would you keep and use evil?

If no, how would your world work if you did somehow get rid of evil?




Regards
DL

Seems we do not have an argument on the necessity of evil so let me give you a quote from a Christian as to how he sees us vis a vis God and sons.

"
The scriptures are full of commands telling us of our Divine Potential, even commanding us to become as God. The Most straight forward statement to that effect is Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Christ clarified who the writer was speaking about when He said that:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:34-36, emphasis added)

So those who accept the word of God are gods, even children of the Father. That certainly explains why the scriptures call the Father the "God of gods" (See Joshua 22:22; Psalm 136:2; Deut 10:17; Daniel 11:36)

We are specificlly commanded to take upon ourselves the attributes of God. We are to look to Christ as our perfect example. (1 Peter 2:21) We are to perfect as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48). We are to serve our brethren as He has. (John 13:15) We are to suffer as He has (see again 1 Peter 2:21). By accepting Christ into our lives, we become joint heirs with Christ and inherit all the Father has. (Romans 8:17)

When Peter spoke on it, he called it being "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). John stated:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2) Through the Atonement, we can be pure as He is pure (1 John 3:3)

So the scriptures are repleat when admonitions, teachings, and exhortations declaring those who recieve the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be gods and commending us to follow the path that leads to exactly that. Satan's biggest lie nowadays is that we can't become like God. That we are just human and there is nothing we can do about that.

But Christ came specifically so we can be born again into a divine life. He came to make us holy, who were unholy, through the grace of God. By His blood we are purchased and purified so that we can gain Eternal Life. We are the children of God, what do children grow up to become? An acorn grows into a mighty tree, even when they dont look at all alike when they start out. As does the tiny mustard seed. You think that despite being God's children we can't become like Him? Then what was the point of Christ's sacrifice, if not to reconcile us with God and restore to us what we couldn't do for ourselves?

Man and God are the same species. We are literally His children. The scriptues are clear on this."

Regards
DL

I stand corrected, seems it is supported. Thanks for the correction.
Paradox_7
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9/4/2012 5:56:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 11:48:21 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/4/2012 9:24:35 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/3/2012 7:56:03 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
When you become a God, will you use evil the way God does?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don't know your view of evil or how you explain it but much of scriptures say that at some future in heaven, we will become as God and to me that would mean that we all inherit a new earth. Anything less would be less than what Satan has been given. Dominion over the earth. God would hardly give man less. I assume here that like humans, God would want his children to reach his level of thought and responsibilities and then some. God would then become God of Gods.

Believers, should have no problem imagining the scenario above and should be able to show why they would allow evil to exist on their own make believe world.

I can imagine the scenario but I'm not sure that becoming gods is supported in the Bible. The verse you posted is simply Christ telling us to adhere the Beatitudes, and the instructions He had given in earlier verses. He wants us to strive for perfection, and try to be perfect, as the Father in Heaven.

No definitive conclusion has ever been presented and accepted by any majority as to why God created and uses evil.

This may not be accepted the majority, but I believe that evil is just something that must be tolerated as a side effect of mankind having free will. To me it seems no more complex than that.

To evolutionary theists, it must exist to further the survival of the fittest and what keeps man evolving. Without it we would face a greater evil. Extinction.

To some theists, it is to test us and weed out the unworthy or less fit. Yet many theists not believe in evolution even as God weeds out the less fit. Causing heavenly evolution, so to speak.

As a Gnostic Christian, I have no problem reconciling evil with reality. To me, within evolution, evil is good. Somewhat the way a God would think. I would not get rid of it as I see it's ultimate requirement and in that sense, evil is good as it serves the greater good. Evolution. Theistic evolutionists agree.

Free will is not a valid argument if we must do evil to survive. Evolution demands both evil/competition and good/cooperation.

Would you allow evil to exist on your fictitious world, like God or nature does here in our real world?

If yes, why would you keep and use evil?

If no, how would your world work if you did somehow get rid of evil?




Regards
DL

Seems we do not have an argument on the necessity of evil so let me give you a quote from a Christian as to how he sees us vis a vis God and sons.

"
The scriptures are full of commands telling us of our Divine Potential, even commanding us to become as God. The Most straight forward statement to that effect is Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Christ clarified who the writer was speaking about when He said that:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:34-36, emphasis added)

So those who accept the word of God are gods, even children of the Father. That certainly explains why the scriptures call the Father the "God of gods" (See Joshua 22:22; Psalm 136:2; Deut 10:17; Daniel 11:36)

We are specificlly commanded to take upon ourselves the attributes of God. We are to look to Christ as our perfect example. (1 Peter 2:21) We are to perfect as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48). We are to serve our brethren as He has. (John 13:15) We are to suffer as He has (see again 1 Peter 2:21). By accepting Christ into our lives, we become joint heirs with Christ and inherit all the Father has. (Romans 8:17)

When Peter spoke on it, he called it being "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). John stated:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2) Through the Atonement, we can be pure as He is pure (1 John 3:3)

So the scriptures are repleat when admonitions, teachings, and exhortations declaring those who recieve the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be gods and commending us to follow the path that leads to exactly that. Satan's biggest lie nowadays is that we can't become like God. That we are just human and there is nothing we can do about that.

But Christ came specifically so we can be born again into a divine life. He came to make us holy, who were unholy, through the grace of God. By His blood we are purchased and purified so that we can gain Eternal Life. We are the children of God, what do children grow up to become? An acorn grows into a mighty tree, even when they dont look at all alike when they start out. As does the tiny mustard seed. You think that despite being God's children we can't become like Him? Then what was the point of Christ's sacrifice, if not to reconcile us with God and restore to us what we couldn't do for ourselves?

Man and God are the same species. We are literally His children. The scriptues are clear on this."

Regards
DL


I will refute all of this by the end of the day.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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9/5/2012 3:03:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 11:48:21 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Seems we do not have an argument on the necessity of evil so let me give you a quote from a Christian as to how he sees us vis a vis God and sons.

"
The scriptures are full of commands telling us of our Divine Potential, even commanding us to become as God. The Most straight forward statement to that effect is Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Christ clarified who the writer was speaking about when He said that:

This is what happens, when you take the scriptures grossly our of context. it's very appealing, and attractive, to believe that we will some day be a God! (bum bum bum!!). However, this is in no way the truth.

Lets examine the context of every one of the passage he's presented, and see if we can more evenly explain what message each passage holds.

Psalm 82: 1-6
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the 'gods'[2]:
2 "How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[1]
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "The 'gods' know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness[1a];
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

[1] To start, there is no implication of a future promise of deity, he calls them [presently] Gods (with quotation). What is God doing? Judging them, harshly. Is God angry with perfect beings? perfect beings who give favor to the wicked!?..
That would be absurd, especially since GreatestIam is suggesting a promise of perfection 'once we're Gods', but the True God is calling them Gods now-- in judgement.

What is bringing this judgement upon them? what have they done wrong?
[1a] The god's know and understand nothing; is this the way one describes beings who've reached their divine potential?

[2]Vv. 2-4, indicate rather clearly, that these people are in places of power: Rulers, Judges, Appointed. So the context rather implies that the term "God's" (elohim), in this very specific case is referring to Lords or Rulers-- not divine beings. He is Judging the judges; Hence King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

This is fully reinforced by Christ in John.

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:34-36, emphasis added)

It's sort of sick, to see this taken so purposely taken out of context..

Can anyone, reading this passage guess what is going on? Lets add the few verses before hand:

30 I and the Father are one."
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

So, he is about to be stoned, for claiming to be God (his equal), and what exactly are these people doing; Juding him. He refers specifically back to the passage in Ps. 82, when his father condemns those who were 'juding' un justly.

Again, no mention of future promise, nor reasonable implication that these people are currently 'divine'; its the opposite, Christ calls them blasphemers!

So those who accept the word of God are gods, even children of the Father. That certainly explains why the scriptures call the Father the "God of gods" (See Joshua 22:22; Psalm 136:2; Deut 10:17; Daniel 11:36)

We can now reasonably remove all thought of those passages meaning that we are, or will be, divine God's; He is referring to those who've misused the word of God, in judgment. The term elohim, in these passages is a title of a 'ruler', 'judge', or 'lawyer'.

I will expound on the bottom half of this pitiful exegesis, in a moment.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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9/5/2012 3:20:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This premise is about as theologically deep as a puddle.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/5/2012 5:04:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:20:56 PM, GenesisCreation wrote:
This premise is about as theologically deep as a puddle.

This is the trans-human propaganda. We will ascend into God's ourselves through evolution.
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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9/6/2012 9:15:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:03:47 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/4/2012 11:48:21 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Seems we do not have an argument on the necessity of evil so let me give you a quote from a Christian as to how he sees us vis a vis God and sons.

"
The scriptures are full of commands telling us of our Divine Potential, even commanding us to become as God. The Most straight forward statement to that effect is Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Christ clarified who the writer was speaking about when He said that:

This is what happens, when you take the scriptures grossly our of context. it's very appealing, and attractive, to believe that we will some day be a God! (bum bum bum!!). However, this is in no way the truth.

Lets examine the context of every one of the passage he's presented, and see if we can more evenly explain what message each passage holds.

Psalm 82: 1-6
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the 'gods'[2]:
2 "How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[1]
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "The 'gods' know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness[1a];
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

[1] To start, there is no implication of a future promise of deity, he calls them [presently] Gods (with quotation). What is God doing? Judging them, harshly. Is God angry with perfect beings? perfect beings who give favor to the wicked!?..
That would be absurd, especially since GreatestIam is suggesting a promise of perfection 'once we're Gods', but the True God is calling them Gods now-- in judgement.

What is bringing this judgement upon them? what have they done wrong?
[1a] The god's know and understand nothing; is this the way one describes beings who've reached their divine potential?

[2]Vv. 2-4, indicate rather clearly, that these people are in places of power: Rulers, Judges, Appointed. So the context rather implies that the term "God's" (elohim), in this very specific case is referring to Lords or Rulers-- not divine beings. He is Judging the judges; Hence King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

This is fully reinforced by Christ in John.

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:34-36, emphasis added)

It's sort of sick, to see this taken so purposely taken out of context..

Can anyone, reading this passage guess what is going on? Lets add the few verses before hand:

30 I and the Father are one."
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

So, he is about to be stoned, for claiming to be God (his equal), and what exactly are these people doing; Juding him. He refers specifically back to the passage in Ps. 82, when his father condemns those who were 'juding' un justly.

Again, no mention of future promise, nor reasonable implication that these people are currently 'divine'; its the opposite, Christ calls them blasphemers!

So those who accept the word of God are gods, even children of the Father. That certainly explains why the scriptures call the Father the "God of gods" (See Joshua 22:22; Psalm 136:2; Deut 10:17; Daniel 11:36)

We can now reasonably remove all thought of those passages meaning that we are, or will be, divine God's; He is referring to those who've misused the word of God, in judgment. The term elohim, in these passages is a title of a 'ruler', 'judge', or 'lawyer'.

I will expound on the bottom half of this pitiful exegesis, in a moment.

It is quite strange I agree for God to chastise others for favoring the wicked over the innocent while he himself is shown doing so. In giving Satan dominion over the earth with enough power to deceive the whole world as well as God having his own son murdered, punishing the innocent to favor the guilty.

The divine perfection you speak of indicated that you think God can do no wrong yet he repented for doing so in Noah's day.

Are you a parent?
What would you like for your children?
To forever be less than what you are or for them to match and exceed what you are?

As above so below. Right?

Regards
DL
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/6/2012 9:59:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/3/2012 9:08:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
I find it laughable that someone blames God that He created them, that they choose to be killers, thieves, rapist, liars and sexual deviants. Seems to me that men should learn to be moral themselves instead blaimng God because they lack the will and want to be that way. This is a reason why our society is heading down hill from 50 years ago when my parents could leave thier doors unlocked all day and night. Ohh... It aint peoples fault, Its God's.

Who else are we to blame? If God created us, God created us with the propensity to be killing, thieving, raping, lying sexual deviants. Whatever we are comes from God; according to the Bible, no one else created anything. It's like a baker blaming a cake for not turning out right or a painter cursing his, or her, painting for being less than a masterpiece.

Oh, please, don't tell me evil came from the Devil. Because, if it did, from where did the Devil get it? Of course, the standard argument to that is free will; and, free will requires a choice between good and evil. How could the Devil have chosen something that didn't exist?
GreatestIam
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9/6/2012 10:20:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 9:59:49 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/3/2012 9:08:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
I find it laughable that someone blames God that He created them, that they choose to be killers, thieves, rapist, liars and sexual deviants. Seems to me that men should learn to be moral themselves instead blaimng God because they lack the will and want to be that way. This is a reason why our society is heading down hill from 50 years ago when my parents could leave thier doors unlocked all day and night. Ohh... It aint peoples fault, Its God's.

Who else are we to blame? If God created us, God created us with the propensity to be killing, thieving, raping, lying sexual deviants. Whatever we are comes from God; according to the Bible, no one else created anything. It's like a baker blaming a cake for not turning out right or a painter cursing his, or her, painting for being less than a masterpiece.

Oh, please, don't tell me evil came from the Devil. Because, if it did, from where did the Devil get it? Of course, the standard argument to that is free will; and, free will requires a choice between good and evil. How could the Devil have chosen something that didn't exist?

Before he uses his free will B S card allow me put this here.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or " it's all man's fault".

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

http://www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/6/2012 4:10:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 9:15:40 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
It is quite strange I agree for God to chastise others for favoring the wicked over the innocent while he himself is shown doing so. In giving Satan dominion over the earth with enough power to deceive the whole world as well as God having his own son murdered, punishing the innocent to favor the guilty.

If you believe that some are innocent above others, then you clearly have no biblical knowledge of man's depravity. It is very clearly stated, that none are good, and no one is innocent(Romans 3), thought man tends to thinks so(Prov. 16:2). If you simply disagree with scripture, then that is your perogative; but there are no instances within the bible, where any person is declared innocent outside of God's grace, and has been punished for it.

Christs scarifice, was voluntary, and was purposed in saving. God is Christ, therefore he killed himself so that some may live. Satan, can only decieve those who are not God's sheep, as clearly stated in many passages; IOW - those who were never supposed to hear the word of truth.(http://www.freegrace.net...).

The divine perfection you speak of indicated that you think God can do no wrong yet he repented for doing so in Noah's day.

I take it that you concede to having misinterpreted those passages; especially since you specifically referred to the passage in Matthew declaring one is only justified by the law, if the are 'perfect as their heavenly father is perfect'. Like I said above, if you do not think God is perfect, then that is a matter of your pathetic human opinon, and counts for naught in the matter of biblical interpretation.

Are you a parent?
What would you like for your children?
To forever be less than what you are or for them to match and exceed what you are?

As above so below. Right?

I am a parent, and would love for my children to have proper understanding of Law and Gospel, so that they, can honor God in their lives, and do right by their neighbor. I wish for my childred to be far more then me, as i am an imperfect and severely flawed man whose made a great deal of mistakes.

You continue to place God on our plane, as if he is our equal. I am glad to be a humbled servent of God, and would never expect nor desire to have the power of God in my flawed and corrupted hands. You portray the same pride as satan, who thought he too, should be God.

Is it to difficult to see the frustration god has with mankind, when people declare so openly their disapproval of his rule and purposes? Is this innocence? No, it's a disrespectful and ungrateful response to a God that has even granted a person an instance of life instead of immediate eternal darkness.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/6/2012 4:11:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 9:02:40 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
That is the way to think.

Regards
DL

I see, Me on the clouds with Jesus Christ. I see, you on earth thinking your a God.
Guess who wins?
GreatestIam
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9/7/2012 12:52:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 4:10:20 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/6/2012 9:15:40 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
It is quite strange I agree for God to chastise others for favoring the wicked over the innocent while he himself is shown doing so. In giving Satan dominion over the earth with enough power to deceive the whole world as well as God having his own son murdered, punishing the innocent to favor the guilty.

If you believe that some are innocent above others, then you clearly have no biblical knowledge of man's depravity. It is very clearly stated, that none are good, and no one is innocent(Romans 3), thought man tends to thinks so(Prov. 16:2). If you simply disagree with scripture, then that is your perogative; but there are no instances within the bible, where any person is declared innocent outside of God's grace, and has been punished for it.

Christs scarifice, was voluntary, and was purposed in saving. God is Christ, therefore he killed himself so that some may live. Satan, can only decieve those who are not God's sheep, as clearly stated in many passages; IOW - those who were never supposed to hear the word of truth.(http://www.freegrace.net...).

The divine perfection you speak of indicated that you think God can do no wrong yet he repented for doing so in Noah's day.

I take it that you concede to having misinterpreted those passages; especially since you specifically referred to the passage in Matthew declaring one is only justified by the law, if the are 'perfect as their heavenly father is perfect'. Like I said above, if you do not think God is perfect, then that is a matter of your pathetic human opinon, and counts for naught in the matter of biblical interpretation.

Are you a parent?
What would you like for your children?
To forever be less than what you are or for them to match and exceed what you are?

As above so below. Right?

I am a parent, and would love for my children to have proper understanding of Law and Gospel, so that they, can honor God in their lives, and do right by their neighbor. I wish for my childred to be far more then me, as i am an imperfect and severely flawed man whose made a great deal of mistakes.

You continue to place God on our plane, as if he is our equal. I am glad to be a humbled servent of God, and would never expect nor desire to have the power of God in my flawed and corrupted hands. You portray the same pride as satan, who thought he too, should be God.

Is it to difficult to see the frustration god has with mankind, when people declare so openly their disapproval of his rule and purposes? Is this innocence? No, it's a disrespectful and ungrateful response to a God that has even granted a person an instance of life instead of immediate eternal darkness.

So God is even less responsible than imperfect men in that he does not ever want his children to match or best what he is.

Not only is secular law better than biblical law but secular man is more responsible as a parent than God. Sweet.

As to your wish to profit from the murder of an innocent Jesus.

Thomas Paine, in Age of Reason, wrote:
If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and pay it for me. But if I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed. Moral justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose justice to do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the thing itself. It is then no longer justice. It is indiscriminate revenge.

This single reflection will show that the doctrine of redemption is founded on a mere pecuniary idea corresponding to that of a debt which another person might pay; and as this pecuniary idea corresponds again with the system of second redemptions, obtained through the means of money given to the church for pardons, the probability is that the same persons fabricated both the one and the other of those theories; and that, in truth, there is no such thing as redemption; that it is fabulous; and that man stands in the same relative condition with his Maker he ever did stand, since man existed; and that it is his greatest consolation to think so.
Emphasis mine.

So not only is the killing of an innocent man immoral, but it shows that the redemption allegory being used is that of a financial debt. Which is an interesting parallel to the practice of purchasing 'pardons'.

[It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book

Free will to me is the ability to make a choice without coercion.
A choice made while under coercion, (especially under threat of pain and suffering), is not a freely made choice, ergo it is not free will. In fact there is a name for it; it's called extortion and it is a criminal offense precisely for the reason that it is not a free choice but a forced one.

"Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense." Wikipedia

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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9/7/2012 12:55:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 4:11:48 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/6/2012 9:02:40 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
That is the way to think.

Regards
DL

I see, Me on the clouds with Jesus Christ. I see, you on earth thinking your a God.
Guess who wins?

I do. I do not have to have my head up some God's a ss.

You have to suffer a genocidal son murdering God forever. Don't dare turn your back on him.

Regards
DL
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 12:58:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:55:40 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 9/6/2012 4:11:48 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/6/2012 9:02:40 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
That is the way to think.

Regards
DL

I see, Me on the clouds with Jesus Christ. I see, you on earth thinking your a God.
Guess who wins?

I do. I do not have to have my head up some God's a ss.

You have to suffer a genocidal son murdering God forever. Don't dare turn your back on him.

Regards
DL

GL, with that.